Are self-identified fascists allowed on AVEN?

[Still]

1 hour ago, Tortoise ._. said:

From an IRL discussion: Not all fascists are Nazis. Nazis couldn't be openly gay, but there are openly gay fascists out there (although they sometimes call themselves "androphiles" to avoid using the word gay). Same-sex romance and love is accepted in some branches of fascism, but demonised in other branches.

 

 [This post is in no way me supporting fascism or nazism, or anything related to those, in any way at all, nor is this a response to anyone in this thread. The views here came about from a IRL discussion with another ace who pointed out that I kept using Nazis as my go-to to describe fascism - after all, they are the most well-known and studied fascist group out there. This was quite rightly highlighted to me as being only one version of fascism. This post is only intended as an informational post to say that there are many variations of fascism out there which have developed as it has become rooted in different cultures and evolved over decades. For my personal view on Nazis on AVEN: I think they should be instantly banned from AVEN as far as I care, since by the time someone holds those views they are too far gone. Someone would need to reach a pretty high level of fascist views before they could identify as a Nazi. I will not be responding to anyone responding to this post.]

Uh...actually caring about "different branches of fascism" and doing "some fascists are good, actually" apologism?

 

[Lysandre, the Star-Crossed]

 

I feel like this belongs here somewhere 

[Deltalorian]

6 hours ago, Still said:

Uh...actually caring about "different branches of fascism" and doing "some fascists are good, actually" apologism?

Where was the fascist apolgism in there, I can't tell if there even is some in there, please if there is tell me what it is and why it's fascist apologism, I would love to avoid doing anything of the sort

[daveb]

I hope we can all rest a little easier now.

[Still]

1 hour ago, Deltalorian said:

Where was the fascist apolgism in there, I can't tell if there even is some in there, please if there is tell me what it is and why it's fascist apologism, I would love to avoid doing anything of the sort

I'm probably not alone in saying that I don't think there's any use in distinguishing between "different branches" of fascism, and saying some fascists are OK with gay people comes off to as saying "not all fascists are that bad". All fascists can get in the bin, and saying some fascists are better than others is fascist apologism.

[RoseGoesToYale]

9 hours ago, Still said:

Making fascists follow the ToS is barely an inconvenience for them, since modern day fascists are mainly using dogwhistles to stay within the/spirit of the rules of any given space. For example, say someone posted that "The decline in Western birth rates has been arranged by the people who run our society". You probably deducted that by "the people who run our society" they actually mean "the Jews", but there's enough plausible deniability there to stay within the rules.

Yeah, not long ago, there were a couple users who were engaging in thinly-veiled racist commentary, but were wording posts in just the right way to either make them unreportable or unactionable against the ToS, and so the commentary continued until they decided to leave. It was the most frustrated I've been with AVEN, until now. Back then, it was easy to think "oh, these are just a few bad apples who came in to cause trouble", but in light of this thread, I see it emerging as a pattern here and I find it very disturbing.

 

9 hours ago, Still said:

I don't think AVEN is at risk of being invaded by fascists any time soon, but there should not be any room to let them in: looking at any space online that explicitly allows fascists, you can see that they are in fact fascist spaces.

There's a saying... "It never happens, until it does." Like here in Florida, many people don't ever prepare for a hurricane until there's one knocking at the door, and then run around like chickens with heads cut off trying to stop a thing that doesn't respect doors, or windows or roofs. Maybe AVEN's governance never figured it'd be a problem because why would fascists or far-right extremists ever come in here except maybe to troll (which would summarily result in a ban)? Maybe this is the hurricane forecast, and the time to prepare is NOW. If AVEN never considered fascism could be a problem in here, it should consider it a problem NOW and do something about it.

[Snao Cone]

33 minutes ago, daveb said:

I hope we can all rest a little easier now.

Context being that the member who started this has been banned anyway, based on your update to the banned members thread?

[løvely]

oh my fucking god, I didn't have any faith in humanity when I started reading this thread, but let's just say I did, I would've lost it. There are no words to describe this unbridled insanity. I stand and sympathize with you @RoseGoesToYaleand @Life Of Tass. Oh dear lord.

[Deltalorian]

36 minutes ago, Still said:

I'm probably not alone in saying that I don't think there's any use in distinguishing between "different branches" of fascism, and saying some fascists are OK with gay people comes off to as saying "not all fascists are that bad". All fascists can get in the bin, and saying some fascists are better than others is fascist apologism.

I thought the point of what they said was that all fascists should get binned, but yeah, realistically there is no point in trying to differentiate between fascists

[Aye]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:59 PM, Skycaptain said:

A person is allowed to identify as Fascist, so long as they don't make posts which contravene AVEN ToS pertaining to bigoted content. It's no different from the fact that I identify as antithesist so long as I don't insult, invalidate theists.

What

 

[Blue eyes white dragon]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:59 PM, Skycaptain said:

A person is allowed to identify as Fascist, so long as they don't make posts which contravene AVEN ToS pertaining to bigoted content. It's no different from the fact that I identify as antithesist so long as I don't insult, invalidate theists.

The difference between identifying as fascist and antithesist is that one is in support of ideas that harm others

[michaeld]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:59 PM, Skycaptain said:

A person is allowed to identify as Fascist, so long as they don't make posts which contravene AVEN ToS pertaining to bigoted content. It's no different from the fact that I identify as antithesist so long as I don't insult, invalidate theists.

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

[RoseGoesToYale]

Thank you for the clear response, @michaeld. I feel a lot better now.

[Life Of Tass]

47 minutes ago, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

Thank you.

[awadama]

Five pages of misinformation and confusion when the answer was just “No, of course not” all along. Incredible! 😅

[- 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 -]

The self-identifying fascist is now banned, as I knew they would be.

 

But looking back on this I want to point out that I am still not aware of any clear public policy that forbade people from self-identifying as fascist. I mention this for three reasons: 1) if there was, I'd like to know what it was, so I can analyze why myself and others missed it. 2) if there is intended to be a clear public policy here, to assist its creation. And 3) to remind people why many people didn't think it was forbidden (i.e. there was no clear indicator it was).

 

To be clear I'm being literal, I mean something like "fascism is prohibited" not "bigotry is prohibited".

[Still]

5 hours ago, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

[Lilibulero]

8 hours ago, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect

Thanks, makes total sense. Always go to the source, that's the rule on the internet. Opinion and fact are easily confused.

[The Sword]

10 hours ago, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

Rarely has The Sword been this relieved at hearing a conclusive BOD statement. Thank you, @michaeld!

[Philip027]

Eyyy, the L was mostly turned into a W!

 

It took a while but at least you got there eventually.

[Snao Cone]

I think it's good to get this perspective from the Board level, because as they are generally detached from content moderation, they aren't constantly wound up in procedural factors. Admods here have faith in the process (or they mostly do, I would think) and might want to avoid backlash for perceived bias, but the BoD can determine an official stance. And I'm glad they did, because fuck fascism.

[Lysandre, the Star-Crossed]

11 hours ago, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

I have a single question for the board

 

Who gets to decide what constitutes "similar movements" here? 

 

I fully respect that this is a private forum and can operate however the owners please. I recognize that the TOS are not any form of legally binding document entitling rights, and that ultimately we're all permitted here only of a combination of our and the will of whoever owns AVEN. I don't delude myself into thinking that I or any other user here is truly entitled to anything. By no means do I take any issue with any of that  Nevertheless I feel that I'd be doing myself and my community a disservice if I didn't ask that this line between orthodox and unorthodox be revealed. 

[daveb]

3 hours ago, The Sword said:

Rarely has The Sword been this relieved at hearing a conclusive BOD statement. Thank you, @michaeld!

 

1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

I think it's good to get this perspective from the Board level, because as they are generally detached from content moderation, they aren't constantly wound up in procedural factors. Admods here have faith in the process (or they mostly do, I would think) and might want to avoid backlash for perceived bias, but the BoD can determine an official stance. And I'm glad they did, because fuck fascism.

I am glad to get this clear answer, too. I fully support it.

 

I wasn't sure how much I could say before and didn't want to say things I wasn't sure were accurate. No shade on anyone who spoke up. It's not always easy.

[LeChat]

On 2/4/2023 at 7:58 PM, rebis said:

...Aren't there people who could fire all of them in a hot second for screwing up, or am I completely clueless?...

Hello. I'm interesting in trying to understand what you meant by this.

Thank you.

[rebis]

34 minutes ago, LeChat said:

Hello. I'm interesting in trying to understand what you meant by this.

Thank you.

Meant by what? I appreciate your isolating the sentence, but can you clarify what you don't understand?

 

 

[uhtred]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:06 PM, michaeld said:

As people are taking this as official rather than SkyCaptain's opinion, I feel I need to point out, as a board member, this is incorrect. Self-identified fascists cannot be on AVEN. Same for self-identified Nazis and those from other similar movements.

Is there a list of what similar ideologies are banned? It seems Nazis are covered under fascists but  what else is in that category. There are a number of large active organizations around the world that support suppression of women's and LGBT rights though violence.  These include some extremist Islamic sects (Note - I'm not painting all of Islam with this brush - all major religions have their extremists)  

 

 

[rebis]

I should state for the record: I legit have nothing but respect and admiration for the work of @LeChat, @Alaska Native Manitou and @daveb as part of the Admod team here. So apologies for any impression of criticism or negative commentary it may have seemed I intended in my earlier post:

 

 

On 2/4/2023 at 6:58 PM, rebis said:

Do you mean like if they talked behind the scenes, just agreed and presented a united front, clearly establishing it as policy that self-proclaimed fascists are instantly permabanned?

 

Can they do that, though?

 

Serious question. Can like @daveb @Alaska Native Manitou and @LeChat collectively create/change an AVEN policy, if they want? Or how many of them would need to agree?

 

Aren't there people who could fire all of them in a hot second for screwing up, or am I completely clueless?

That is all. They all three do a great job and we should thank them more often. And I sincerely apologize if I have inadvertently caused injury of any kind, to any Admod or any other AVENIte. 

[LeChat]

@rebis Thank you. I appreciate this.

[daveb]

No worries from me, @rebis. I took no offense.  

 

7 hours ago, rebis said:

They all three do a great job and we should thank them more often.

Thank you  

[Guest]

I guess atleast the self-identified fascist can recognize they're a fascist, unlike the people trying to cancel them and take away their freedom of speech. 😆