rebis Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 40 minutes ago, nickolekuebler said: I do wholeheartedly agree with you, I just feel this way in respect of those people not of our government. I feel that we can find another way to fight the government than sitting for these. I do completely respect your opinion and do not ever want to disrespect someone else or their beliefs, I do hope that this is not taken that way. Nah, not at all! Apologies if I came off as offended. You expressed your opinion completely respectfully. I just legit was a socialist for years before ever joining the military; so, as you might imagine, I have had more than one conversation about patriotism and leftist politics. The two are in no way mutually exclusive. And again, in no way suggesting you were saying that! I suppose this is just a soapbox I'll hop on pretty easily! Is diversity (of opinion and all else!) not a beautiful part of we should love about America? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Alaska Native Manitou Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 3 hours ago, rebis said: I guess this must be a result of the increased xenophobia since 9/11, because I don't recall the national anthem (or pledge of allegiance) being a thing past elementary school, when I was a kid. But no, you shouldn't be required to stand. 3 hours ago, Sally said: No one is forced to do so. I stopped reciting the pledge in junior high. I also tried to stop standing while others recited it, only to be dragged to the administrative office, where the furious vice principal roared that I would be expelled if I ever did that again. So I was forced to stand for the pledge until I graduated high school. 7 Link to post Share on other sites
AspieAlly613 Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 Could be worse. It's better than saying "stand if you love America," then informing the mayor and chief of police about which families had children who didn't stand. Link to post Share on other sites
Alaska Native Manitou Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Still Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 No, of course not. This is a blatant case of double standards: if North Korea forced people to stand for a pledge of allegiance to the country, American media would use it as an example of how ebil and authoritarian they were. Besides, the dumb pledge is the kind of thing that can easily be turned into a shibboleth: sure, you're technically allowed to not stand for the pledge…if you're a freedom-hating traitor. I heard Bob doesn't stand for the pledge, maybe we should get the Freedom Police to check out his house. If you think this is overblown, just think of the Bush era and the hysteria over the stupid fucking US flag lapel pins, for example. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Philip027 Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 The pledge and anything similar to it is stupid and tantamount to child indoctrination. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
a little annihilation Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 absolutely not 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Ezoodle Posted January 27, 2023 Author Share Posted January 27, 2023 9 hours ago, nickolekuebler said: I know that I may have a differing opinion from most people here, but I have a very different background as well. I am a veteran of the U.S. armed forces, and a prior law enforcement officer. As with this background for no other reason than this I will say that yes we should have to stand for the pledge of allegiance, and the national anthem. I would view this as a sign of respect for all of those that have lost their lives in service to their country or their community. That being said though I do think they need to get rid of the religious reference in the pledge of allegiance. That's where I fall under it My family having a military past and being immigrants I don't think it should be required per'se tho it's just respect for the people who died Link to post Share on other sites
ElloryJaye Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 46 minutes ago, Ezoodle said: it's just respect for the people who died You might want to look into the history of your Pledge before you assert that. It has a lot more to do with colonialism than respect for the armed forces. And, well, most countries pick one specific day in the year to perform ceremonies to honour those who have died in the country's service. Whether you call it Remembrance Day, Veteran's Day, Armed Forces Day, or something else, voluntary participation there is the best way to demonstrate respect. Forcing a bunch of kids to recite words that they don't understand and that many of them resent is just authoritarianism. You can't force love of country any more than you can force any other kind of love. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
bloominoko Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 8 hours ago, Alaska Native Manitou said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute Oh man that's eerie 3 Link to post Share on other sites
intheshadowoferos Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 A little history about the pledge ( I couldn’t get the link to stick) sept 2015 article, Smithsonian Magazine: On the morning of October 21, 1892, children at schools across the country rose to their feet, faced a newly installed American flag and, for the first time, recited 23 words written by a man that few people today can name. “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands—one nation indivisible—with liberty and justice for all.” Francis Bellamy reportedly wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in two hours, but it was the culmination of nearly two years of work at the Youth’s Companion, the country’s largest circulation magazine. In a marketing gimmick, the Companion offered U.S. flags to readers who sold subscriptions, and now, with the looming 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’ arrival in the New World, the magazine planned to raise the Stars and Stripes “over every Public School from the Atlantic to the Pacific” and salute it with an oath. Bellamy, a former Baptist preacher, had irritated his Boston Brahmin flock with his socialist ideas. But as a writer and publicist at the Companion, he let ’em rip. In a series of speeches and editorials that were equal parts marketing, political theory and racism, he argued that Gilded Age capitalism, along with “every alien immigrant of inferior race,” eroded traditional values, and that pledging allegiance would ensure “that the distinctive principles of true Americanism will not perish as long as free, public education endures.” The pledge itself would prove malleable, and by World War II many public schools required a morning recitation. In 1954, as the cold war intensified, Congress added the words “under God” to distinguish the United States from “godless Communism.” 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Anomaly Q3Xr Posted January 27, 2023 Share Posted January 27, 2023 No. Absolutely not. I find the whole idea of the pledge of allegiance to be quite... bewildering. I would never take part in any such thing. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
bare_trees Posted January 28, 2023 Share Posted January 28, 2023 21 hours ago, daveb said: I don't think we should even have a pledge of allegiance. I especially don't think one should be required to be recited by school kids every day at school, when they often don't even really understand it. And I don't think anyone should be required to or expected to stand up for it, with or without hands on hearts. This. I was going to write something like this, but then you said it perfectly. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Starry Sky Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 No. Annoyed me even as a kid. Never been very patriotic. Can think of a number of countries I'd be more proud to be citizen of... 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Ultima Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 this was already covered in a court case: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette. Courts ruled that students nor anyone (save soldiers and public servants for obvious reasons) can be required to say the pledge of allegiance. It should be noted that the pledge of allegiance did not even exist until June 22, 1942. Our founding fathers actually never intended for any U.S. citizen to pledge any kind of allegiance to anyone. we are suppose to be a free country. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Virelai Posted January 31, 2023 Share Posted January 31, 2023 Absolutely not. True patriotism is sitting when you know that reciting "liberty and justice for all" is not an accurate picture of our country at all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Fangorn Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 It's against my religion to swear oaths, so I never said it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Fangorn Posted February 7, 2023 Share Posted February 7, 2023 On 1/26/2023 at 10:39 PM, nickolekuebler said: I know that I may have a differing opinion from most people here, but I have a very different background as well. I am a veteran of the U.S. armed forces, and a prior law enforcement officer. As with this background for no other reason than this I will say that yes we should have to stand for the pledge of allegiance, and the national anthem. I would view this as a sign of respect for all of those that have lost their lives in service to their country or their community. That being said though I do think they need to get rid of the religious reference in the pledge of allegiance. Requiring it goes against freedom of speech and freedom of religion. That seems more disrespectful to the people who fought for those freedoms and all of the other people who were important in our country's history. Many of the people who helped build this country were Quakers who came to America to escape persecution; a lot of that persecution was because they didn't swear oaths. That's why America now has laws protecting that right. Taking away that right would be disrespecting the people who were arrested for following this belief, and all of the people who still follow religions that believe this. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Grumpy Alien Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 The flag salute speech is a creepy af bootlicking practice in brainwashing that should be abolished altogether 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Old Maid Librarian Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 I was in school in the late 1950's early '60's. We learned the Pledge by rote in first grade and HAD to recite it every school day until I graduate from high school. We were never told what any of it meant, so no one really paid any attention to what they were saying. (I was a bit perturbed about the "Republic of Forchastan" until my parents explained what the words actually were.) Never meant anything except another school day. Resented having to recite the Lord's Prayer daily more because there are denominational variations in wording but the School Board dictated the ONLY RIGHT WAY. Of course, if you weren't Christian, you had to say it anyway, or at least move your lips. A Jewish friend said it taught her that you had complete freedom of religion as long as you pretended to be a Protestant Christian in public. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ThatBadCat Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 No. As a non-American I find the existence of the pledge of allegence very wierd, and getting kids to recite it in school quite creepy. Sounds like brainwashing to me. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
awadama Posted February 8, 2023 Share Posted February 8, 2023 USA USA USA! Link to post Share on other sites
OloongTea Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 No way... younger kids saying it have no idea what they're pledging towards. It seems pretty dystopian that this even exists- children have to stand up every day and chant about how great our country is? And as it makes direct references to God requiring someone to stand or say it would violate the Constitution. If you specifically meant just standing for it: no, standing up for it also symbolizes you agree with it, and it doesn't make a difference standing or sitting, in my opinion. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
A User Posted February 9, 2023 Share Posted February 9, 2023 ive heard about it thru the internet. shit's creepy i mean, i stand for the anthem but that's just an anthem IMO Link to post Share on other sites
Lysandre, the Star-Crossed Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 It should absolutely be voluntary to do, the real question here is regarding the motivations of the folks refusing. If people hate being here that much then I'm all for cutting some of our federal budget to provide them one way plane tickets elsewhere and allowing them to renounce their citizenship free of charge. Link to post Share on other sites
daveb Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Ergo decedo Link to post Share on other sites
Autumn ace Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 16 hours ago, Lysandre, the Star-Crossed said: It should absolutely be voluntary to do, the real question here is regarding the motivations of the folks refusing. If people hate being here that much then I'm all for cutting some of our federal budget to provide them one way plane tickets elsewhere and allowing them to renounce their citizenship free of charge. As someone who refused to do the pledge in junior high, I disagree with this. I didn’t refused to do the pledge because I “hate America”. I refused to do the pledge because it talks about “Liberty and justice for all” in a way that dismisses that not everyone in this country has liberty and justice. I also refused because “under god” in the pledge makes me uncomfortable. It’s not that I hate being an American. It’s that I don’t agree with the way the pledge captures and describes America. There is a huge difference between hating being an American and not wanting to the pledge. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 On 1/26/2023 at 10:06 PM, Alaska Native Manitou said: I stopped reciting the pledge in junior high. I also tried to stop standing while others recited it, only to be dragged to the administrative office, where the furious vice principal roared that I would be expelled if I ever did that again. So I was forced to stand for the pledge until I graduated high school. I was not thinking of what schoolchildren are forced to do -- just adults. I'm appalled that your school insisted upon that, but until you're 18, you're treated as a child, unfortunately. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Lysandre, the Star-Crossed Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 5 hours ago, Autumn ace said: As someone who refused to do the pledge in junior high, I disagree with this. I didn’t refused to do the pledge because I “hate America”. I refused to do the pledge because it talks about “Liberty and justice for all” in a way that dismisses that not everyone in this country has liberty and justice. I also refused because “under god” in the pledge makes me uncomfortable. It’s not that I hate being an American. It’s that I don’t agree with the way the pledge captures and describes America. There is a huge difference between hating being an American and not wanting to the pledge. In all honesty I directed that at a handful of folks I've met over the years who perpetually complain about how terrible this place is without lifting a finger to do anything but complain. It was hyperbolic and that nuance wasn't even implied, so thank you for responding as you did. Not everyone refuses for the same reasons. Link to post Share on other sites
The Sword Posted February 13, 2023 Share Posted February 13, 2023 On 1/27/2023 at 3:14 PM, bloominoko said: Oh man that's eerie *chuckles awkwardly in German, feeling hot under the collar* 3 Link to post Share on other sites
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