Dead bodies and how to feel about them

[Samaro]

Sorry if this… no, that this is a bit disorganized. I wasn’t sure how to word things, nor was I sure where exactly to put these questions.

 

Earlier this week I got to go see some bodies that were donated for the education of people who need to know how the human body really looks—inside and out. I won’t be giving any particular details about the bodies themselves. They were for an anatomy class, so they had skin removed and such so the class can better see the muscles and whatnot, so any identifiable characteristics would be hard to find anyway. That isn’t, at least as far as I know, relevant. Perhaps some of you may think differently.

Before, after, and during, the teachers and their assistants made abundantly clear that it is okay if anyone feels uncomfortable. They can step out for a bit to calm down. They said that it is perfectly natural to feel uncomfortable. The teachers and assistants took the time to cover up or close eyes and cover genitals explicitly for the purpose of making the experience more comfortable for my class. 

It seems like these were necessary steps; most of the kids were taken aback. One had to step out of the room. Another almost became frozen in place, staring at a head that had been cut down the middle. She was led away by her friend. Apparently my teacher was pretty freaked out after her first time examining bodies like these, too.

Meanwhile I didn’t feel anything in particular. Sitting through another lecture would have felt the exact same. Apart from the smell of the preservatives, nothing bothered me, and that became a part of the background pretty quick. Nothing felt uncomfortable or unnatural. The only times I felt weird were when everyone was saying all that stuff about it being normal for this to be uncomfortable. I was… am worried that there is something wrong with me for handling skinned and cut up human bodies not to feel off putting and wrong. It was my first time, too. Why was there nothing?
How are people supposed to feel when dealing directly with the dead? Was my response odd, or should the teachers add that other reactions are normal, too? I couldn’t ask the teachers, because people always assume I actually felt something, and I’m just in shock or whatever, and that my emotions will catch up with me. They won’t. This isn’t the first time I the “shouldn’t I feel something unpleasant about this” question has come up—just not about dead bodies before.
Anyway, how do you think you would have reacted, or how did you actually react (if you have done something similar)?

 

The teachers also went on about how we should be grateful to the people who donated their bodies for making this learning experience possible. They always talked like the bodies were still people.

That can be my second question. Why did they always talk as if the corpses were people still? Were they?
I’m of the mind that they aren’t, even if they were before, but I’d like to know what thought process goes on that keeps them as people even in that state.

Or was it just to make themselves feel better?
To be polite to the remains’ families?

[Lilibulero]

Was this anatomy lesson for school age students? I hope not, as they may be too young for this.

 

As for the bodies, as a mark of respect for them, people still talk to them - after all, they are still people, only , dead ones.

So it's a combination of all three- politeness to the family, respect for the person and their sacrifice for anatomy.

 

In some medical schools, the students are asked to write a letter to the dead person, thanking them. It's then given to their family as a mark of appreciation. Sometimes, when the anatomists are finished with the body, it's stitched up again and given to the family for burial or cremation.

Some people with interesting diseases have the relevant parts saved in formaldehyde, so that generations of medical students can benefit.

 

There was a UK documentary last week, where a young woman with a rare eye cancer donated her body and the dissection was filmed for the documentary.

 

However people feel about it, the donors are out of pain, and treated respectfully by the scientists.

[ElloryJaye]

It's complicated.  Really, really complicated.

 

Some people believe that disrespecting a corpse is the same as disrespecting the living person the corpse once belonged to.  Even if the teachers don't personally share that belief (and it's very possible they do share it), it's usually better for everyone involved to respect it.  Why hurt the surviving family for no real reason?

 

There's also a lot of quite nasty history attached to dissections, anatomy collections, and the like.  In the past, many of the people whose bodies ended up being used weren't volunteers—their bodies were stolen.  This especially happened to poor people and nonwhite people (although it could happen to literally anyone if what they died of was unusual enough) and there were instances at least as recent as the mid-20th century.  Reassuring everyone that the bodies on the tables were in fact donations that both the bodies' former inhabitants and their next-of-kin have signed off on may be more important for people from some backgrounds than others.

 

In another vein, many people have sympathetic reactions to procedures performed on a corpse in the same way they would if they saw them being done on a living human—we're great pattern matchers, and a dead human, or portion of one, obviously looks quite a lot like a live human, or portion of one.  Your classmates will get over it with time, or leave that field of study.  Your pattern matcher just doesn't seem to have made that match, for whatever reason.  It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you.

 

[Guest]

I wouldn't feel about them if I were you. 

[EllieAly]

In my line of work, I can’t really afford to be affected by it. I’ve been to countless traumas where patients didn’t make it, I’ve also assisted in several autopsies. I can only count one time where I was affected by a patient passing away.
I’m not particularly proud of being unaffected and it definitely took time to be able to detach from whatever it is I’m seeing, but the alternative isn’t really any better for my mental health. 

[Duke Memphis]

There isn't a right way or wrong way to feel about it. Different people handle dead bodies differently, and there are all sorts of defense mechanisms your brain can employ in morbid circumstances like these.

 

I've seen two dead humans (each at a different visitation, natural causes and heart failure respectively), one human who was unresponsive from drug overdose, two dead dogs who died while I was holding them (one from vehicular impact and one who had to be put down due to constant seizures), and at least a dozen cats, and that's not counting vermin, other roadkill, and animals that my cats caught. It's never pretty, and I've felt differently about each one.

[Lord Jade Cross]

Seen plenty of dead folks in my days. Whether it was a family member, an old acquitance, teachers, folks I barely met and people down my neighborhood gunned down, dead bodies, to me are, well just that, a dead body: a common day occurence. Plus a few anatomy videos I saw where a class dissects the parts of a corpse to study them.

 

To me, they dont represent much beyond the physical remains of a once live person. You cant really do much with a body beyond dissecting it or bury/burn it. Actually, to me, it seems highway robbery that in order to bury/burn a corpse, you have to pay such exhorbitant amounts of money just to put it into a ceramic box

[Epitaph]

The first deceased human I ever came in contact with elicited a pause from me, followed by doing what I needed to do to get them out of a noose. I remember certain unpleasant details, but largely, how I've dealt with the dead since has been mechanical.

 

Let's ask you a question. Could you butcher a farm animal? Do the most common act done to kill them? Do you think you would feel anything?

 

Here's my take. Some people would turn away. Others would take to it as if they were naturals. I think this level of disposition also exists for people with morbid jobs. You'll notice that morticians in particular quite often have similar personalities. You may simply just be more naturally inclined to such a task.

 

But let's talk about the psychology of death and injury. Have you ever watched any form of media where somebody was injured, and you yourself, for even a moment, felt discomfort somewhere in your body, likely in the same area as the person in the video getting injured? This is an empathic reaction in humans similar to yawning and starting a crowd of people yawning.

 

I think when people are exposed to a deceased human being, or something a bit worse, such as a dissected one, our ability to feel empathy kicks in and we become hyper aware of ourselves in some sense. In that moment, most people attach themselves to the body in a mental sense, feeling squeamish at an opened up torso or something else, because they have real tangible insight into their own body, which could very easily be them on that table. It is a heightened sense of mortality, and knowing how frail we are. Many of us live in a body that functions on clockwork. We are not used to confronting the reality that we are a clock winding down, and can easily be broken. It's a quiet subconscious sort of thing.

 

But let's talk about respecting the dead. On one hand, we can look at this through two lenses. Scientifically, a corpse is vessel that had a living entity's mind in it at some point. Now that it's dead, everything is inert and subject to decay. It is nothing more than a pile of matter, a car without a driver.

 

But we can also look at this through a semi-spirtual or metaphysical lense. I am not a hunter. I have never killed an animal in my life for the purpose of game hunting, or survival hunting. But my rule about all life, specifically survival hunting, is that should I kill an animal for the purpose of saving myself and continuing to live, I have to respect that in order to do so, I took a life that otherwise would not have died at that point in time had it not met me. The whole process involving the animal should be one done with respect and care.

 

What are humans? Animals, although we exist on a different level of perspective from many other animals. This same tenant of mine applies here, and it's multiplied because of the complexity of human interactions. Imagine for a moment that perhaps not a day before, the corpse you saw on the table was going out, doing people stuff, talking to family and friends, and then boom they died. In the span of twenty four hours they went from a living person with hopes and dreams, fears, loves, hates, and everything else, to a pile of mechanically separated inert matter, devoid of a pilot to drive them.

 

That they offered to donate what was left of them should be treated with respect, and that they were a living entity should be honoured relatively. Death is the absolute door we all have to face, and it is the sacrifice we all must unwillingly make, the very same as the hypothetical animal I hunted to get myself food.

 

That concludes what I think is, somewhat the basis for why people feel what they do around corpses, and why you're not out of the ordinary in your reactions. You may find one day that you would have a reaction. If the cadaver was a friend of yours, and their split apart skull leered up at you with dead grey eyes, do you think you would feel it? Who can say. Everybody responds differently.

 

That being said, I don't think of time like most do. The dead body you saw on the table, devoid of the person who lived in them? All still there. All the matter and the energy that they are still exists. They may not be conscious or alive any longer, but they are still very much "here" and a person, because their energy signature still exists in the universe. Rather than an organic structure, it is dispersed back into the framework.

[Samaro]

21 hours ago, Lilibulero said:

Was this anatomy lesson for school age students? I hope not, as they may be too young for this.

Oh! I’m in college, so this was for college students. I should have specified.
In high school we only looked at dead sharks, worms, crawfish, and I think a sheep’s heart? No human bits.

[Samaro]

Thank you all for answering! It has helped me understand the situation from more perspectives and confirmed some of the ideas I had surrounding this.

[nanogretchen4]

I'm surprised they would use human cadavers in an anatomy course unless it was pre-med at least. The cadavers you were dissecting used to be people who made the choice to donate their bodies for the good of science and education. When people die, their friends and relatives grieve. They find comfort in honoring the memory of the deceased with a funeral. Without the body of the dead present, you can have a memorial service but not really a funeral. Maybe that feels like a sacrifice to the mourners, and it's probably important for them to believe that this sacrifice is meaningful and respected.

 

When people see an actual human cadaver, especially for the first time, they may feel sad. If it is the cadaver belonged to a very old person, at least they can say that the person had a long life and maybe it was their time. But if the cadaver belonged to a young person they might feel really sad to think this person's life was cut short far too early. Also, they might think that it could have been them on the table instead of this other person, or it might remind them that they are also going to die. 

 

 

[cryptid.goat.]

i dont know, i havent ever seen a dead human, i’ve had several family members die but i wasnt present at the time any of them died, for my grandpa there was a thing where some of my family members went to see his body before they cremated it, but i was 9 and i didnt want to do it. though my cousin, who would have been 15 at the time, actually found his dead body, and she was really shaken up, and i think that kind of applies here, because

i guess i would say while its somewhat irregular to not feel anything when seeing a dead body for the first time, it doesnt show lack of emotion or compassion. but if you found someone you cared about dead for example, and didnt feel anything, thats when i might tend to think that that was a bit heartless.

[iamorchid]

I don’t feel really anything when I see a dead body, most people are offended when I don’t show any emotions so I just avoid them

[Olallieberry]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:49 AM, Samaro said:

How are people supposed to feel when dealing directly with the dead?

It entirely depends on the situation. An anatomy class is a highly clinical low-emotional-stakes situation. I think it's completely normal to feel anything from weirded out to curiosity to sympathy to nothing at all, and a variety of other things, in an anatomy class.

 

It's completely normal to feel totally different things in an anatomy class than at the open-casket wake of someone you don't know, or that of someone you do know, or a roadside accident where you're the first person on the scene, or a hospice room after your loved one passes, or the scene of some recent violence.

[Nick2]

I have arranged to have my body donated for science when I die.  I was an educator in real life and felt I could be of use after my life.  You don't want a doctor saying "oops" when doing surgery on you...right?  Cremation is done after they are done with you or your parts.  The circle of life and all.

[Tetus]

You’re not obligated to have any particular emotional response to anything, really.

 

In addition, I’d say that recognizing a distinction between a person and a dead body is good. Certainly we should not treat the two as if they are the same.

 

Our brains are wired to recognize patters and categorize things that seem similar to us, so it’s not surprising that some students reacted strongly, not to mention that everyone had their own baggage: maybe someone close to them has died, or they had a brush with death that caught them off guard in the moment when confronted with a dead body. This doesn’t make their reaction or yours right or wrong.

 

That said, I am reminded of something a philosophy professor brought up in a class we did that was like a survey of modern philosophers he found interesting. We were reading some work done on animal intelligence research and  the implications of that, and when we got to the subject of animal cruelty, he mentioned that one argument for why we should not be cruel to animals is that they have faces. The basic, highly abridged, idea being that by desensitizing ourselves to cruelty to something with a face, we are making ourselves worse and crueler people to each other.
 

In a similar vein, while I don’t think you need to have a particular emotional reaction to a dead body, it might be worthwhile to treat it with respect: not for it’s sake, but for your own. Reminding yourself that this body used to be a real person and that they are helping other people a final time in this way is probably something worth reflecting on.

[Olallieberry]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:49 AM, Samaro said:

The teachers also went on about how we should be grateful to the people who donated their bodies for making this learning experience possible. They always talked like the bodies were still people.

That can be my second question. Why did they always talk as if the corpses were people still? Were they?
I’m of the mind that they aren’t, even if they were before, but I’d like to know what thought process goes on that keeps them as people even in that state.

Or was it just to make themselves feel better?
To be polite to the remains’ families?

When someone dies, the things they did when they were alive don't disappear. It's good that you recognize that the cadaver donors were people when they were alive, but just because they're gone doesn't mean they weren't generous and made choices to do things to directly benefit you personally.

 

Nobody's mistaking a cadaver for a live person. Nobody's pretending the cadaver made the choice to be a cadaver. But yeah, it's hard to separate the person from the body, and that's the reason they talk about the body in close association with the person who made these positive choices.

 

I'm not sure if you were confused about this linguistic shorthand, or if you were confused about why it matters at all since the person's dead now. The reason it matters is that the choices they made while alive had value, for better or for worse, and our gratitude isn't about stroking the ego of a dead person. We're human beings and we recognize humanity in both the living and the departed.

 

There's no reason not to have a grateful attitude toward the donors. It's not about them, it's about you.

[Samaro]

Wow. People are still replying to this. Color me surprised, if you know what color that would be. I don’t.

There are a lot of different perspectives.

 

I’m starting to think I may have come across as if I didn’t care how the bodies were treated. That is not true. I have no inclination to make jokes about them, treating them roughly (beyond what is needed for dissection, though “rough” shouldn’t be a part of that), or anything if the sort. I also would never mention any discernible features, for fear of upsetting any people who knew the body in life. I’d be angry if I caught anyone doing something like that. It is distasteful. 

 

Am I grateful for the learning experience? Yes. It was a privilege to be able to examine the parts of the body we had been learning about all semester. I would not have gotten that opportunity without people being so kind as to donate their bodies for such causes. I realize that their decision may have caused their families and friends some amount of distress, as well.

 

The language choices did confuse me, but I have a somewhat literal, one-track mind at times. Thanks for helping with that.

Even at funerals for my family members or goodbyes for pets, I have a hard time seeing their bodies as them anymore. I remember crying a lot when my grandma was sick, but I didn’t shed a tear at the funeral. I didn’t so much as tear up at my uncle’s funeral until my dad went up to speak and he started crying. The same thing happens with pets. Once they are gone, that is that, but while they are dying (especially if is painful for them) I get upset. Maybe that is relevant? 
And the bodies for the anatomy class were missing a lot of parts to show off the muscles, nerves, and various cartilages we had been learning about. Those remains hardly resembled the fixed up ones at funerals.

 

I don’t know. I am just trying to learn here.