The Ethical Non Monogamy thread…

[ThannaA]

Do you have a wish for a general thread about this?

for those seeking to find out more / considering it… the consequences/ failures/ successes?

 

it’s covered in all sorts of ways on the forum but do we have a common go to place where we can all ‘go to bed’ so to speak?

 

 

im still looking for experience and advice 

i’ve made multiple threads and i don’t want to make this all about me at all…. my intention is to open the thread for everyone?

 

 

im happy to kick off but i thought i’d leave it open for a bit or is there one of these already?

[ThannaA]

well making a rough start - my story

 

i met my husband 15 years ago … we had variously uncomfortable sex without being aware of his asexuality (or even either of our autism.)

im schizophrenic and have severe issues with overwhelm when ever attempting to live with sexual  guys and i’ve had no positive experience with coming even close to this long period of comfortable loving stability. 

we’ve lived together for 13 years, i haven’t been in hospital since we met and haven’t crossed over to insanity for more than a few hours at a time.

 

we have had lovely sex twice… 

 

i began to resent my husband for the lack of sex when it became apparent that once or twice were all the times it would likely ever be lovely ( much positive possible work in the future excepted) and this was roughly 8 years ago

 

about a year ago something seems to have maybe changed with my hormones… and i’ve gone back to being highly sexual 

 

i tried more serious celibacy aided by more serious yoga and meditation- it made me more crazy 

 

we openly discussed ENM and decided between us that i should try it but i had a lot of guilt and agreed to put it on the back burner.

 

i then went on meditation retreat and while there set up a date and with the intention of telling him before he went on night shift and before it happened-  i didn’t have the heart and ended up cheating - this guy wasn’t interested in continuing as it had been spur of the moment 

 

i then introduced the idea of ENM again 

i was in a bit of a mess… i’d done everything possible to open up slowly and sanely but it still unravelled.

 

telling my husband i had a date set up for a weekend and going away for a weekend 

didn’t help either - guy no. 2

 

this is not the perfect way to open a relationship 

i then also set up a third date with guy 3 (my new poly partner) when my husband was about to go to work i went on the 3rd date and told him only after i’d slept with him

 

i planned to tell him in therapy but he found out through email to the therapist that i’d been dishonest 

 

all this hurt my husband and trust levels hugely but not enough to stop him from realising that this was something i needed that he couldn’t give me and our decision for me to seek a polyamorous solution stood

 

ive met this guy a few times now… we text a lot but his son has just had an operation for cancer - which has been diagnosed since we met - so we don’t meet often… he is sole parent with 2 school age children and works so he doesn’t have a lot of time 

 

im happier so far but it’s been difficult for both of us

[marius123]

For many years my wife has often said (sometimes angrily, sometimes very matter of factly) that if I'm that bothered about sex I can always get it somewhere else. I've always kind of held this out as something that might be needed in the future and left it at that.

 

Recently after various arguments and the discussion that she feels she could be asexual I decided I wanted to have more of a conversation about this. I wanted to consider it and think about what boundaries and rules might be, how it could work.

 

She 'thought about it' for about five minutes and declared that it wouldn't work. She said I could still find someone if I really wanted to but that would be the end of any affection between us, cuddling, holding hands and we'd be officially just room mates and parents.

 

I don't really want to do ENM. I'd rather have my wife's love, affection and desire but I'm never going to get that the way I want it. As we always do we've shelved the conversation and this time seemingly moved from rare & quick sex to celibacy. That's not a permanent solution. In absence of compromise we're going to have to talk about ENM again some time.

[ThannaA]

2 hours ago, marius123 said:

For many years my wife has often said (sometimes angrily, sometimes very matter of factly) that if I'm that bothered about sex I can always get it somewhere else. I've always kind of held this out as something that might be needed in the future and left it at that.

 

Recently after various arguments and the discussion that she feels she could be asexual I decided I wanted to have more of a conversation about this. 

 

She 'thought about it' 

I don't really want to do ENM. I'd rather have my wife's love, affection and desire but I'm never going to get that the way I want it. As we always do we've shelved the conversation and this time seemingly moved from rare & quick sex to celibacy. That's not a permanent solution. In absence of compromise we're going to have to talk about ENM again some time.

this really makes me think that couples counselling with a non monogamous positive counsellor could be possible for you at some time 

 

i can recommend this very highly if it’s someone with sense brains ethics and training.  i can recommend someone but i don’t know if that’s welcome or within boundaries?

 

i feel it’s a really sane reaction to her almost-promise then sincere reaction to want to withhold affection for i would be thinking “that’s unfair” at this point.

 

our compromise personally is that we cuddle sometimes… briefly usually…. the cats are often in the way…

 

we share a bed

 

but that’s it… we have discussed the gray area recently but although it’s back to being a soft boundary it’s unlikely to be crossed

 

he at first wanted don’t ask don’t tell but was then curious to know when where etc and doesn’t want to be kept in the dark

 

he is so open to this though, really … and i need to ask him at this point about his jealousies… because it is important 

 

there are books I’ve read although one of them seems to be female specific (the title seems to be) about ENM… But I found very useful on both sides… reading them- they have exercises and questions So what needs to be discussed and what conversations can be opened up

 

it’s been a rough ride for me… but it’s working out okay

your wife does sound angry about the possibility of a problem 

It’s just like everyone else says communication communication communication

 

we are effectively room mates without being parents because of my husband’s preference not to cuddle much….

if you’re used to more affection that’s more difficult 

also noticed you say “sometime” Yes there is time but the resentment builds

 

ENM Does also bring up a possibility of a truly polyamorous relationship

to find the right person is possible and brings something to your life which can’t be there with your wife

 

i’m saying this a bit early - like i have all the experience - we are in the stage of going crazy for each other

[Traveler40]

2 hours ago, marius123 said:

She 'thought about it' for about five minutes and declared that it wouldn't work. She said I could still find someone if I really wanted to but that would be the end of any affection between us, cuddling, holding hands and we'd be officially just room mates and parents.

 

1. The communication is currently your biggest hurdle for all aspects of the relationship.

 

2. Ultimatums. 🙄

All ultimatums do for me is create the need to “ultimately” call the bluff.
 

FWIW, consider defining everything for yourself, attempt to fully communicate with her, build your life around or with her - whatever that means for you two. 

[marius123]

21 hours ago, kamel said:

this really makes me think that couples counselling with a non monogamous positive counsellor could be possible for you at some time 

 

i can recommend this very highly if it’s someone with sense brains ethics and training.  i can recommend someone but i don’t know if that’s welcome or within boundaries?

It's not crossing any boundaries, I think it's not the time yet though. I will remember the offer, thank you.

 

21 hours ago, kamel said:

we are effectively room mates without being parents because of my husband’s preference not to cuddle much….

if you’re used to more affection that’s more difficult 

also noticed you say “sometime” Yes there is time but the resentment builds

We have some affection / physical touch. I like it and it bothers me in equal measure. It would be tough to give it up.

 

I'm seeing 'some time' as a little timeout from 20 years of what has felt like a losing battle. I need a break from it!

 

 

20 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

1. The communication is currently your biggest hurdle for all aspects of the relationship.

 

2. Ultimatums. 🙄

All ultimatums do for me is create the need to “ultimately” call the bluff.
 

FWIW, consider defining everything for yourself, attempt to fully communicate with her, build your life around or with her - whatever that means for you two. 

 

The communication is the thing, I know it. It's what we've been bad at for so long. I was considering communicating how frustrated I've felt, in particular the last couple of weeks, this evening. I wasn't going to ask her to do anything about it I was thinking I wanted just a little understanding of something I'm going through. I've been turning it over in my head all day (and all of last night). What I might say, how I might try and describe it. I just can't see the point. Every other similar conversation, no matter how well I intended it has ended up with upset. I'm not even sure what I would want her reaction to be.

 

I need to know what I want from communication and that there's a chance it might work. That feels one of the first things to get over.

[Traveler40]

53 minutes ago, marius123 said:

I need to know what I want from communication

Most seek validation by being heard and seen which seems to be what’s missing.
 

By clearly explaining your need to be validated and heard by her, you can then gauge her reaction and see whether or not she cares to recognize you. 

 

Be ready. Have your needs defined and in simple, easy to digest format. It doesn’t need to be fancy or complicated. Only describe how you feel, what you need and what you hope to see going forward. Clearly state what you’re asking from her. It may need to be repeated a few times.

 

Around here, these conversations are typically prefaced with something like, “I would love to have a conversation about X. I’m hoping we can hear each other clearly as it’s that important to me. Is now a good time to do that?”  
 

If it’s not a good time, find out when might be better and set a time. Don’t let that drag out. My husband used to play that game. Now, I can’t recall a time he’s done it…I will not be deterred. 😬

 

EDIT: Some find early approaches to this best accomplished in writing. It removes static and noise. 

[marius123]

@Traveler40 thank you 🙏

 

That makes a lot of sense. I will think on it and see how I can best define my needs and then ask for them.

[Mountain House]

Hi @marius123, you could consider looking into nonviolent communication. Here's a book. There are probably videos on youtube. If both of you are into it, you could consider a counselor to help learn the technique.

 

Your goals are:

• Be able to say anything to your partner.
• Be able to hear what you don't want to hear with grace.

6 hours ago, marius123 said:

I'm not even sure what I would want her reaction to be.

This is not useful outside wanting to be heard. She is autonomous and gets to react however she reacts. Don't go into a conversation with the goal of convincing.

[Traveler40]

“Observing without evaluating is the highest form of human intelligence.”

 

Some of us here on AVEN (🤚🏼) have yet to achieve the highest levels of intelligence. Clearly. 🤣

 

@Mountain House , since you’re evidently a successful student of the art, I’ve taken your suggestion as well. My mindset is on teaching the kids a better path from the outset. 
 

Thanks! 🥰

[ThannaA]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:58 PM, marius123 said:

 

I'm seeing 'some time' as a little timeout from 20 years of what has felt like a losing battle. I need a break from it!

 

 

do you mean you’ve been together 20 years, or did i get that wrong?

 

“ i need a break from it! “ sounds like where you’re really at now in any case

 

it’s important to note that humans are not one of the species that mate for life-  out of 4000 species only a few dozen will only have one partner until one of them dies

 

i love the other suggestions… writing is a good tool for early communicating of a lot of built up information or feelings and thoughts in a kind and loving  way… the good stuff is important to include… if you want to do this be as kind as possible .

[anisotrophic]

14 hours ago, kamel said:

humans are not one of the species that mate for life-  out of 4000 species only a few dozen will only have one partner until one of them dies

Among birds, social monogamy is by far the norm — birds will pair up and stay together to raise young. (There are about 10,000 species of birds that have been described.) It’s worth noting that this often isn’t sexual monogamy, and birds will often find a different “social monogamy” partner when it’s a new mating season (new round of rearing young).
 

It’s notable in presenting a similar situation regarding logistics: birds, like humans, face extensive labor in raising children. It’s very typical for incubating eggs to be a team effort — they take turns, one finds food while the other broods.
 

Take it for what you will. Birds don’t usually have penises. I think attempting to justify anything via comparison to other species is dicey business.

[ThannaA]

21 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Among birds, social monogamy is by far the norm — birds will pair up and stay together to raise young. (There are about 10,000 species of birds that have been described.) It’s worth noting that this often isn’t sexual monogamy, and birds will often find a different “social monogamy” partner when it’s a new mating season (new round of rearing young).
 

It’s notable in presenting a similar situation regarding logistics: birds, like humans, face extensive labor in raising children. It’s very typical for incubating eggs to be a team effort — they take turns, one finds food while the other broods.
 

Take it for what you will. Birds don’t usually have penises. I think attempting to justify anything via comparison to other species is dicey business.

i understand your point but i think it’s significant majority of mammals… in defence of the non monogamous for life arguments i’d also point to night clubs, dating apps, pubs… etc