A Lose-Lose Kinda Situation

[OdinsSage]

I am a sex-averse asexual, my partner is a average-high libido allosexual. We've been married for near eight years now (child-free) and I've been out as an asexual for six years. So for our first two years of marriage I just kinda figured my discomfort/disinterest was a mix between my religious upbringing and the old cliche "women just don't want it like men do." But when I finally came out as asexual so much clicked into place for me. Since then I've done A LOT of research and embracing of who I am and have discovered the longer I go without sex the happier I am and more comfortable I am with my body. My partner, on the other hand, seems to get more and more discouraged the more I come into my own. I think he thought the asexual thing was a phase I was going through after a rough patch in our relationship and the longer it goes the more he realizes I'm not "going back to who I was before." I've tried talking to him about compromises, and the things that make me feel close in a relationship that arent sex, but even after six years he still seems to believe the only true way to feel close and emotionally connected/intimate with one's partner is through sex. I've tried to suggest compromises like finding ways to help get him off that don't require me actually having sex but he's not interested in any of that, it seems he's only interested in the idea of getting me off which I have 0 interest in. I feel guilty because he spirals into these depressed states for days, sometimes weeks at a time, where everything he does nice for me has a note of "now you'll have sex with me, right?" and when it doesn't go there he gets upset and hurt and launches into long explanations about how he never feels close or needed any more and how he does all these nice things for me but never gets "anything" in return. He'll dive into self depreciating rants about how he's disgusting and a monster for wanting sex and he hates himself for it. (But mind you, if we do end up having sex he won't spiral like this for long bits, so apparently when he's getting it he's not a monster it's just when he hasn't had it in a while that apparently he's such a terrible person for wanting it.)

 

All this to say I'm not sure what the compromise is here. I feel guilty because my partner craves something he's not getting out of the relationship, but I have no desire to forgo my own happiness and comfort just to appease his libido.

 

When I was coming out as asexual and really beginning to embrace it a friend of ours asked my partner if my partner could be happy in a sexless marriage. My partner at the time said yes, but I learned a few years later that my partner hadn't actually taken the question seriously because he didn't think it was a real possibility. And I can see in practice that my partner very much CANT be happy in a sexless marriage.

 

I feel so much guilt for not having learned/embraced my asexuality earlier and just been able to avoid the whole relationship. All the signs were there, going back to my teen years. I even once told a friend I wanted a marriage with someone who wouldn't want sex and my friend said that was impossible. The signs were all there, I just kept waiting for something to click. And now I'm in this marriage with someone who is suffering because of my late acknowledgement of what has always been.

 

Is there even really a point in trying to force this thing to work? If we stay together is one of us doomed to always be unhappy or uncomfortable?

[RileyA]

Have you considered opening the relationship? 

 

I'm not saying it will work, sometimes it reinforces to the person that they do indeed need sexual intimacy from their partners.

7 minutes ago, OdinsSage said:

it seems he's only interested in the idea of getting me off which I have 0 interest in.

This is a major part of sex for a lot of people.

 

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 hour ago, OdinsSage said:

I feel so much guilt for not having learned/embraced my asexuality earlier and just been able to avoid the whole relationship. All the signs were there, going back to my teen years. I even once told a friend I wanted a marriage with someone who wouldn't want sex and my friend said that was impossible. The signs were all there, I just kept waiting for something to click. And now I'm in this marriage with someone who is suffering because of my late acknowledgement of what has always been.

This is a very common problem for asexuals. It's an example of a phenomenon known as epistemic injustice, where uncommon experiences are not acknowledged and people with these uncommon experiences have it harder to find relatable advice. Asexuality is a very good example because many people don't realise that it exists, many are so pro-sex that they don't even want to acknowledge that some people could dislike sex, and so mainstream advice about people who feel no desire and/or no enjoyment of sex completely misses the point, because it considers them "a phase", a symptom of some underlying psychological or somatic problem, and doesn't mention that people who feel like this could be asexual.

See - you have already realised it before, but were discouraged by your friend's comments. This is something asexuals get told all the time by people who don't realise and/or don't want to admit that asexuality is real and a celibate lifestyle is valid. I have been more fortunate because I decided early that I don't want to have sex and never relented - but it might have been different if not for the fact that I have found forming relationships extraordinarily hard, I am 41 years old and have never been in a relationship... so I just experienced very little sexual pressure of the interpersonal kind. But many asexuals were not so lucky.

This is another argument for an asexual-inclusive sex ed (and I'm writing it in a country where proper sex ed pretty much doesn't exist, only Catholic propaganda known as "education for family life", and the right wing keeps calling sex ed "sexualisation of children"). Most people who realise that they are asexual later in life feel like you do - that "all the signs were there", they just failed to understand these signs because of an unfavourable cultural environment. If there is an external authority to confirm these signs, these people might have a chance to realise that they are asexual much earlier and spare themselves the pain, discomfort and self-sacrifice which comes with being in a relationship where their lack of sexual desire is hardly acknowledged.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

Is there even really a point in trying to force this thing to work? If we stay together is one of us doomed to always be unhappy or uncomfortable?

I'd say it's an impossible situtaion :c Because when i had my first partner I experienced extreme pain during sex to the extent I didn't want or desire it, but continued to give it twice a day (or sometimes even more) for FIVE YEARS and he was still constantly miserable because I didn't enjoy it the way he wanted me to.

 

This is an issue I have with some sexual people who come through AVEN and act like asexuals are the bad guys because if they just gave sex then the sexual partner wouldn't have to suffer etc (grr) or like the ace is the bad guy for ''forcing'' the sexual into celibacy. The thing is, if the ace gives sex then it's them who are suffering, miserable, and the sexual ALSO IS NOT HAPPY because no matter how much sex they get, if the ace isn't gagging for it and having multiple orgasms etc then they manage to hold that against the ace too and become bitter and angry about it because ''I wish she'd just enjoy it the way other women do'' Y_Y They don't acknowledge the huge sacrifice the ace is making to have sex with them and instead become bitter that it's not the kind of sex they ideally want. 

 

I have known MANY other people who came through AVEN who experienced this exact same thing - the sex-giving ace ended up miserable and feeling unloved and unappreciated, with the sexual feeling resentful and unsatisfied despite all the sex. But when it's the sexual person choosing celibacy for the sake of the ace, suddenly aces are all horrible people and apparently want their partners to be miserable etc, there is no winning!!!! Y_Y

 

So my only solution in this case would be remaining as friends, but both seeking relationships that are more intimately fulfilling for you both? There have been many success stories here where aces have finally left their sexual partners and found much more compatible partners - to the extent they sometimes even discover they were sexual all along and it was actually the sexual partner causing the seeming-asexuality  I know how bizarre that sounds, but it happened to me and multiple other people i have met here also. So yeah regardless of all of that, you could still remain as friends but seek relationships with people that are more compatible for both of you. I honestly think that's the best chance of long-term happiness for you both  

[RileyA]

I,  for one, think it's no coincidence that there are many cishet female aces when you couple that with the orgasm gap and the fact that cishet men are notoriously terrible lovers.

 

I'd hazard a guess that a sizeable number of women who have only really had the experience of their unskilled husband and maybe a few high school boyfriends, will find they have different experiences as they get better at screening partners for decency and compatibility.

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 hour ago, Major West said:

But when it's the sexual person choosing celibacy for the sake of the ace, suddenly aces are all horrible people and apparently want their partners to be miserable etc, there is no winning!!!!

Yes, that's it. This is a clear double standard which I cannot accept. I am anyway sure that there are some "celibacy-favourable allosexuals", but sure, I agree that usually the best solution is to split. But I cannot accept situations when "compromise sex" is considered the default and sex-averse people are shamed for their unwillingness to have sex.

45 minutes ago, RileyA said:

I,  for one, think it's no coincidence that there are many cishet female aces when you couple that with the orgasm gap and the fact that cishet men are notoriously terrible lovers.

 

I'd hazard a guess that a sizeable number of women who have only really had the experience of their unskilled husband and maybe a few high school boyfriends, will find they have different experiences as they get better at screening partners for decency and compatibility.

I think that both things are at play: genuine asexuality and only having selfish partners. I assume that there are many more women who don't enjoy sex, who might declare that they could do without sex completely, than there are women who identify as asexual. And I don't necessarily assume that all members of the former group are necessarily asexual and simply haven't realised it. No, I'm sure that for many of them it's a result of just what you mentioned and I did too: of only having had selfish partners who don't even understand what might be pleasurable to women (hint: more often than not, it's not PIV). The orgasm gap is a real phenomenon: I've seen statistics which said that heterosexual men were the most likely to always or almost always have an orgasm during sex (surprisingly, not even gay men, despite all the statements that a guy knows better how to work with a male body, that guys give better blowjobs... ), and heterosexual women the least likely. We should find balance between the extreme assumptions that women in general don't like sex and only do it because of their partners, and that all women are capable of enjoying and desiring sex and if they don't, it's again only because of men. No, I'm sure that there is a sizable minority of asexual women, and that probably even in absence of stereotypes which make it more "shameful" for men to identify as asexual, there would be an overrepresentation of women among asexuals. But also - the onus of proof should not be on someone expected to prove that they don't like / don't desire sex. If a woman (or a person of any gender) doesn't enjoy sex and feels fine with simply giving it up, they should be free to do so without being expected to chech whether thay are "genuinely asexual" or have only had lousy partners. And, mutatis mutandis, people who feel that they don't want to have sex without having had any sexual experiences (such as myself) should be free to identify as asexual without having checked whether there is a minuscule chance that they might enjoy sex after all.

P.S., because I have just noticed something. "Cishet female aces"? I'm not sure whom you mean: cisgender heteroromantic asexual women only, or cisgender asexual women in general? Because, unfortunately, I have seen some people who think that all asexuals are simply "cishet people" who have nothing to do with the LGBT+ community. So just in case I wanted to object. I am, personally, not even heteroromantic, but anyway I believe that if I'm asexual, I'm pretty much by definition not heterosexual - so, asexuals cannot be "cishet people".

[RileyA]

15 minutes ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

surprisingly, not even gay men, despite all the statements that a guy knows better how to work with a male body, that guys give better blowjobs.

 

Well without being too graphic, that's because we understand it's not all about both people reaching climax. There's more to it than that. Counting orgasms isn't really the way to assess who is having good sex.

16 minutes ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

because I have just noticed something. "Cishet female aces"? I'm not sure whom you mean: cisgender heteroromantic asexual women only

No I mean cishet female aces. Women who are cisgender, heterosexual and somewhere on the ace spectrum. Those folks only date men, and usually only cishet men too. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

I think he thought the asexual thing was a phase I was going through after a rough patch in our relationship and the longer it goes the more he realizes I'm not "going back to who I was before." I've tried talking to him about compromises, and the things that make me feel close in a relationship that arent sex, but even after six years he still seems to believe the only true way to feel close and emotionally connected/intimate with one's partner is through sex. I've tried to suggest compromises like finding ways to help get him off that don't require me actually having sex but he's not interested in any of that, it seems he's only interested in the idea of getting me off which I have 0 interest in. I feel guilty because he spirals into these depressed states for days, sometimes weeks at a time, where everything he does nice for me has a note of "now you'll have sex with me, right?" and when it doesn't go there he gets upset and hurt and launches into long explanations about how he never feels close or needed any more and how he does all these nice things for me but never gets "anything" in return. He'll dive into self depreciating rants about how he's disgusting and a monster for wanting sex and he hates himself for it. (But mind you, if we do end up having sex he won't spiral like this for long bits, so apparently when he's getting it he's not a monster it's just when he hasn't had it in a while that apparently he's such a terrible person for wanting it.)

I would read this section of your post over again, because what this clearly shows is that your problem is primarily one of maturity, not of your differences in sexuality. I don't know how old you two are, but to be eight years into a marriage and him thinking he is entitled to sex just because he did nice things for you, like a loving, equal partner naturally does in a marriage, is absurd. And especially WEEKS of this? How have you not left already?

 

I am not blaming you for his bad behavior, but there was clearly not a proper boundary set for him to end up pestering you and making you both miserable for weeks at a time sometimes. He has shown you that he either will never understand you will never want sex, or he does understand and doesn't care about how you feel. He clearly self-deprecates to guilt trip you into having sex you don't want. You have shown yourself willing to compromise. He has not.

 

3 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

Is there even really a point in trying to force this thing to work? If we stay together is one of us doomed to always be unhappy or uncomfortable?

Sometimes it is worth it to ask this question, since there are relationships worth fighting for. But when you ask this, it sounds like you already know the answer. I know this was written partially as a vent, so maybe some aspects were exaggerated or details on your own behavior were left out, but it's clear all he's done is either reflect blame onto you or try to trick you into thinking he cares about your relationship by being self-deprecating. There has been no real effort on his part to listen, compromise, or take responsibility for his unhappiness by telling you directly what he can tolerate without contradicting himself. It does not look like you have much of a relationship now, and certainly not one I'd fight for.

[RileyA]

On the double standard:

 

I think we all pretty much agree that people generally expect sex to feature in their relationships. So I think the sexual person goes in thinking that this is typical, and then later finds out that it is not. That's what puts the onus on the ace person to come up with a solution. 

 

If someone details that the sexual person went into the relationship aware, attitudes generally change. 

 

I feel like this about non-monogamy/relationship anarchy, though. Others disagree. I think it's my responsibility to say pretty early on that I do things differently. Others feel it's on the other person to just not make assumptions. I'm happy to say that expectations aren't all evil or toxic, and I need to acknowledge the reality I live in.

[everywhere and nowhere]

33 minutes ago, RileyA said:

No I mean cishet female aces. Women who are cisgender, heterosexual and somewhere on the ace spectrum.

Well, so as I wrote: if they are asexual, by definition they aren't heterosexual (or homosexual, or bisexual either). They may be heteroromantic, but it's not the same.

29 minutes ago, RileyA said:

I think we all pretty much agree that people generally expect sex to feature in their relationships. So I think the sexual person goes in thinking that this is typical, and then later finds out that it is not. That's what puts the onus on the ace person to come up with a solution. 

And how about we - as a society - shift the onus? How about we acknowledge asexuality, start teaching about it and also make it a standard to ask a prospective partner beforehand how they feel about sex?

This is what I want: denormativisation of sex, making it no longer obvious. (I even created a word for it in Polish: odoczywistnienie, something like "de-obvious-ising".)

[Guest]

2 hours ago, RileyA said:

I'd hazard a guess that a sizeable number of women who have only really had the experience of their unskilled husband and maybe a few high school boyfriends, will find they have different experiences as they get better at screening partners for decency and compatibility.

Multiple cases that I'm aware of (including my own) were with older men who had many previous partners and were deemed incredible lovers by the many females they cheated on us with.

 

What it turned out I needed to make me actually desire sexual intimacy was for my partner to have no expectations surrounding sex and no preferences as to how things are meant to go or whether we even have it or not. My 'sexual awakening' at 27 happened with a 19 year old virgin who I met on AVEN, and we both pretty much became hypersexual with each other for the two years we were together (it only ended due to distance and the financial restraints that come with that). Whereas my highly experienced hypersexual ex of five years who was in his 30s when I met him, and who had women falling at his feet, felt sex was some integral aspect of his happiness and seemed to almost feel as though he was owed it (not unlike the way certain sexual members talk on AVEN). His 'version' of sex was making the woman cum as many times as possible in any way she wanted. He cared nothing for his own orgasm and desired only to be able to get women off in any possible way that worked for them.. and without that he felt unsatisfied and unhappy. Hence why the constant sex I gave him which often had to include hours of him giving me oral was totally unable to satisfy him. I couldn't enjoy the sex the way he wanted me to, and that seems to be a common issue many aces face when they're the givers: The sexual partner wants you to be orgasming and begging for more and they become frustrated and resentful without that. That frustration and resentment turns you off and makes you want sex even less. And any type of intimacy you may desire leads them to instantly want sex in the way they want it even if you already gave it to them twice that day, so you start pulling away from anything that vaguely resembles intimacy.

 

Another member was in a situation like mine where her husband wanted her to orgasm so badly that he ended up trying all sorts of different toys and things constantly which honestly, it just ends up being a turn off even though many women apparently love that demand for their pleasure. She finally left him and ended up having an experience like mine: Had a sexual awakening (at like 30?) with a partner she met on AVEN because once you're free to just do whatever, or not, when your partner doesn't care either way if sex happens or not, your sexuality is free to flourish in a way it cannot with average sexual folks who expect sex to go a certain way and become unsatisfied if it doesn't work how they want it to,

 

Again you haven't been here long enough to know of the types of situations we are speaking of so you're making assumptions about our age, experience, heck even our gender identity and sexual identity (ie 'cishet' - many people who end up in the ace community certainly don't identify with cishet)

 

1 hour ago, RileyA said:

I think we all pretty much agree that people generally expect sex to feature in their relationships. So I think the sexual person goes in thinking that this is typical, and then later finds out that it is not. That's what puts the onus on the ace person to come up with a solution. 

You misunderstood the double standard. 

 

The double standard is:

 

Many asexuals bend over backwards to try to provide sexually for their partners and their sexual partners generally still fell dissatisfied and angry and end up coming to AVEN to moan about their partner despite having had regular sex for years that never satisfied them and left them upset at their ace partner for not enjoying it enough etc. This is really common. It often does appear that the partner possibly wasn't even ace but just got so turned off by their partner's constant need that they ended up exhibiting strongly asexual characteristics (obviously this isn't true in all cases, it just seems really common here).

 

However sexual partners are also often extremely negatively vocal about ace partners who do not give sex, implying the ace is the bad guy who refuses to compromise by trying to give sex at least sometimes etc.

 

Suddenly the ace becomes the bad guy if they won't have sex, but they're not good enough if they do give sex and it's not 'to the sexual partners liking'. There is no winning unless the ace can magically become 'not ace anymore' which is what the sexual partner truly secretly wants.

 

I don't expect you to acknowledge this double standard though as sexual folks who share the types of opinions that you hold rarely if ever make any attempt to actually understand any of this from the asexual perspective. It's always all about the sexual person: their feelings, their needs, their pleasure even if that 'pleasure' consists of giving the other person as many orgasms as possible. Which again are the exact attitudes which lead to people assuming they're ace for years only to find out when they finally leave that they're actually very sexual and their partner just killed all their desire, It's exhausting and it's quite frankly just a massive turn-off feeling like you owe someone sex merely for them to be able to be happy in their life. Though of course some are just genuinely asexual and remain so after leaving (and find an asexual partner if they're lucky who can actually meet their needs for intimacy with no expectation of sex).

 

1 hour ago, RileyA said:

I feel like this about non-monogamy/relationship anarchy, though. Others disagree. I think it's my responsibility to say pretty early on that I do things differently. Others feel it's on the other person to just not make assumptions. I'm happy to say that expectations aren't all evil or toxic, and I need to acknowledge the reality I live in.

Everyone needs to be as open as possible. However when it comes to asexuality most have no idea they're ace when they start getting into relationships, and assume their lack of desire for sexual intimacy must be down to inexperience on their part (doctors will usually reinforce this idea). Once they realize they're ace - which generally takes years - it's obviously important they disclose that, but it shouldn't be on them to have to do all the compromising. Really unless the ace can be happy with sex (which is extremely rare and usually won't satisfy the sexual anyway) or the sexual can be happy with celibacy, the relationship is very unlikely to work long-term.

 

Obviously if both parties are open to non-monogamy that's different, but monogamy is about more than sex and for people who are innately monogamous sharing their partner's intimacy with others just isn't something they're comfortable with. Also plenty of people can't actually desire sex with others if they themselves are innately monogamous, so non-monogamous scenarios only work when both people are innately poly.

 

edit: it also feels bizarre having to explain all this to someone who by their own admission would never date an asexual, never has dated an asexual, and to whom dating an asexual would be 'their worst nightmare'. I've dated both sexuals and an asexual, and identified on the ace end of the spectrum for ages prior to discovering my innate sexuality (and many who have responded to you over varying threads have shared similar experiences as I have, especially the struggles of mixed relationships from both sides of the fence) yet you seem to constantly reply to everyone as though you know better than them. You even reply to sexual folks as though you share their struggles. When by your own admission you actually have multiple sexual partners and have never had to experience a relationship with an ace.

 

It's like the opposite of trying to explain average sexuality to an ace who insists they know more about what it means to be sexual than all the sexual folks they're responding to, only this feels a lot more insidious. 

[RileyA]

1 hour ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

Well, so as I wrote: if they are asexual, by definition they aren't heterosexual (or homosexual, or bisexual either).

They are became they are attracted to other-sex, usually binary cis folks.

 

1 hour ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

How about we acknowledge asexuality, start teaching about it and also make it a standard to ask a prospective partner beforehand how they feel about sex?

Yes I think we've all pretty much agreed that sex education needs to be more comprehensive. 

 

If I play my assigned role as an anti-ace hater person, it would be totally within my interests for those ace people to know who they are early on so they don't "trick" us sexuals into mixed relationships. 

 

So whatever way you look at it, or me, I'm for education in the same way you are.

[RileyA]

31 minutes ago, Major West said:

the relationship is very unlikely to work long-term.

Agreed. Though I think opening the relationship can work if sex isn't what I call a core need for the sexual and the ace person doesn't feel unloved in the absence of monogamy.

 

Just read the rest of your post, seriously, if you go through everyone of my posts on this site in every thread that I’ve posted, what you're saying is all I've said. I just say it a little more abruptly than you'd like. 

[RileyA]

35 minutes ago, Major West said:

When by your own admission you actually have multiple sexual partners and have never had to experience a relationship with an ace.

 

You're not tailing me well, I have indeed said that I've experienced sex being taken off the table in an otherwise mutually content relationship. It just turned out it wasn't because they were ace. That's how I know even in the best of circumstances, I can't. 

[OdinsSage]

8 hours ago, RileyA said:

I,  for one, think it's no coincidence that there are many cishet female aces when you couple that with the orgasm gap and the fact that cishet men are notoriously terrible lovers.

 

I'd hazard a guess that a sizeable number of women who have only really had the experience of their unskilled husband and maybe a few high school boyfriends, will find they have different experiences as they get better at screening partners for decency and compatibility.

For further reference, I am afab but I am agender.

[OdinsSage]

My partner and I are in our early 30s.

 

I don't think it helps that my partner had a therapist he was seeing for a little over a year who would tell him things like "sex is part of a healthy relationship" and "happy couples have sex 3-4 times a week". I think my partner internalized that information as an uncompromising fact and thinks we'll be a better relationship if he could just find a way to "get me to enjoy sex."

[RileyA]

14 minutes ago, OdinsSage said:

For further reference, I am afab but I am agender.

 

Yeah I was speaking generally there. 

 

The way you're speaking about sex though seems very heteronormative. Very much how cis women relate to cis men and vice versa.

 

That therapist doesn't sound too clever. 

[OdinsSage]

5 minutes ago, RileyA said:

 

Yeah I was speaking generally there. 

 

The way you're speaking about sex though seems very heteronormative. Very much how cis women relate to cis men and vice versa.

 

That therapist doesn't sound too clever. 

Yeah, I speak from that perspective because as an afab who came out later in life that cishet misogynistic narrative was what was preached to me, so it's an internalized damage I'm still working to repair.

 

The therapist was a tool and I let it be known early in my partner's therapy that I didn't appreciate the therapists very narrow definition of a "healthy relationship".

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, RileyA said:

The way you're speaking about sex though seems very heteronormative. Very much how cis women relate to cis men and vice versa.

@OdinsSage is literally discussing their own personal struggles within their own relationship - this is honestly ridiculous that you keep harping on about it when everyone who has replied to you in this thread have said they're not cis (I'm not and neither is OdinsSage) or not heterosexual (I'm not, neither is OdinsSage if they're asexual, and neither is @everywhere and nowhere) And none of us are "young inexperienced girls" either O_O so your "in general" doesn't apply here. 

 

For reference, the "A" in asexual stands for "without" ie "without a desire for partnered sexual intimacy" - the "sexual" in heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and pansexual means the direction of your desire for partnered sexual intimacy and where your sexual attractions lie. You can be hetero-asexual, but you can't be a heterosexual asexual. This has already been explained to you by many people. 

 

14 minutes ago, RileyA said:

 

The way you're speaking about sex though seems very heteronormative. Very much how cis women relate to cis men and vice versa

And it makes no difference here how OdinsSage is relating to sex, however you're completely inaccurate in this assumption regardless. Here is what OdinsSage said:

 

11 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

I've tried to suggest compromises like finding ways to help get him off that don't require me actually having sex but he's not interested in any of that, it seems he's only interested in the idea of getting me off which I have 0 interest in. I feel guilty because he spirals into these depressed states for days, sometimes weeks at a time, where everything he does nice for me has a note of "now you'll have sex with me, right?" and when it doesn't go there he gets upset and hurt and launches into long explanations about how he never feels close or needed any more and how he does all these nice things for me but never gets "anything" in return. He'll dive into self depreciating rants about how he's disgusting and a monster for wanting sex and he hates himself for it. (But mind you, if we do end up having sex he won't spiral like this for long bits, so apparently when he's getting it he's not a monster it's just when he hasn't had it in a while that apparently he's such a terrible person for wanting it.)

 

All this to say I'm not sure what the compromise is here. I feel guilty because my partner craves something he's not getting out of the relationship, but I have no desire to forgo my own happiness and comfort just to appease his libido

@OdinsSage has tried to find ways around it by offering other forms of sexual intimacy (which is acknowledging that sex is about more than penetration) but it's the sexual partner who feels no other form of sexual intimacy will suffice.

 

 

[RileyA]

25 minutes ago, Major West said:

@OdinsSage is literally discussing their own personal struggles within their own relationship - this is honestly ridiculous that you keep harping on about it when everyone who has replied to you in this thread have said they're not cis (I'm not and neither is OdinsSage) or not heterosexual (I'm not, neither is OdinsSage if they're asexual, and neither is @everywhere and nowhere) And none of us are "young inexperienced girls" either O_O so your "in general" doesn't apply here. 

 

For reference, the "A" in asexual stands for "without" ie "without a desire for partnered sexual intimacy" - the "sexual" in heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and pansexual means the direction of your desire for partnered sexual intimacy and where your sexual attractions lie. You can be hetero-asexual, but you can't be a heterosexual asexual. This has already been explained to you by many people. 

 

And it makes no difference here how OdinsSage is relating to sex, however you're completely inaccurate in this assumption regardless. Here is what OdinsSage said:

 

@OdinsSage has tried to find ways around it by offering other forms of sexual intimacy (which is acknowledging that sex is about more than penetration) but it's the sexual partner who feels no other form of sexual intimacy will suffice.

 

 

 

You're now here too. Hi Bae. 

 

The talk about "getting him off" is very cis-heteronormative. That's why I assumed OP was a cis woman. That's all I was saying. 

[Sally]

11 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

Is there even really a point in trying to force this thing to work? If we stay together is one of us doomed to always be unhappy or uncomfortable?

No, and yes.  With a strong mismatch in how two people feel about sex, there's no way to "force" anything and have either party comfortable.   You don't want sex; he does.  Neither of you is at fault and neither of you should feel guilty -- you are just very different.  Try to talk about the fact of that difference without assuming that you must somehow fit together.  Then discuss what is the next step, which wouldn't involve either of you trying to be someone that you are not.  

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, OdinsSage said:

Yeah, I speak from that perspective because as an afab who came out later in life that cishet misogynistic narrative was what was preached to me, so it's an internalized damage I'm still working to repair.

 

The therapist was a tool and I let it be known early in my partner's therapy that I didn't appreciate the therapists very narrow definition of a "healthy relationship".

 

20 minutes ago, OdinsSage said:

The therapist was a tool and I let it be known early in my partner's therapy that I didn't appreciate the therapists very narrow definition of a "healthy relationship".

You're actually doing fine and your views seem far from heteronormative to me, as you tried to find solutions that involve other forms of sexual intimacy: those solutions just weren't things your partner wanted to consider is all. But those kinds of attempted solutions, and the fact that you spoke against the therapist, do not come from a heteronormative perspective at all.

 

And it's disturbing that aces have to defend themselves and their feelings in threads where they're merely asking for advice - you're not the only one RileyA has done this to. He seems to feel he's above everyone here and knows better despite never even having had a relationship with an ace. He's trying to backtrack in his reply to me above by saying "you're not tailing me well" but he explained he'd never have a relationship with an ace in a *direct response* to me, it's not something I had to dig through random comments of his to find as he seems to to be implying. Having a sexual partner change their mind about sex as RileyA claims to have experienced is obviously not comparable in any way to the experiences asexuals and sexuals go through when trying to navigate sexual disparity within their long term relationships. And it's almost funny (though disturbing at the same time) that he seems to think that one event seems to have made him an expert in navigating mixed relationships to the extent he can speak down to those dealing with these issues as though he knows best.

 

Again though I will go back to this

 

11 hours ago, OdinsSage said:

I've tried talking to him about compromises, and the things that make me feel close in a relationship that arent sex, but even after six years he still seems to believe the only true way to feel close and emotionally connected/intimate with one's partner is through sex. I've tried to suggest compromises like finding ways to help get him off that don't require me actually having sex but he's not interested in any of that, it seems he's only interested in the idea of getting me off which I have 0 interest in. I feel guilty because he spirals into these depressed states for days, sometimes weeks at a time, where everything he does nice for me has a note of "now you'll have sex with me, right?" and when it doesn't go there he gets upset and hurt and launches into long explanations about how he never feels close or needed any more and how he does all these nice things for me but never gets "anything" in return. He'll dive into self depreciating rants about how he's disgusting and a monster for wanting sex and he hates himself for it. (But mind you, if we do end up having sex he won't spiral like this for long bits, so apparently when he's getting it he's not a monster it's just when he hasn't had it in a while that apparently he's such a terrible person for wanting it.)

 

All this to say I'm not sure what the compromise is here. I feel guilty because my partner craves something he's not getting out of the relationship, but I have no desire to forgo my own happiness and comfort just to appease his libido.

Your partner doesn't seem to want to compromise on the level that you're able to and I honestly don't even think that comes down to him internalizing what the therapist said as you offered other forms of sexual intimacy. He (like many sexual partners) sadly seems to be of the idea that only one form of sex counts and without it he cannot feel intimacy, but let's be honest here:

 

How can he possibly expect for it to be an intimate experience when he's doing something to you that you don't desire?

 

What if it was the other way around and he is the ace, but the only form of sex you desired was to wear a strap-on and go up his butt? Nothing else will suffice. You insist you cannot feel intimacy unless you do that with him and no other solution or compromise will work. I'm sure he'd also feel really pressured because he probably doesn't strongly desire that, or feels that he'd rather do other things than just be penetrated but he knows it's the only thing that will make you happy.. And how could you enjoy that or feel it is intimate knowing it's not something he desires and knowing he's only complying for the sake of trying to placate you?

 

When you switch it around like that it makes you wonder how someone can think they'll find it intimate in any way when only they want it. I know for me I'd feel nothing but guilt and sadness if a partner tried to compromise with me but I refused any form of compromise and insisted that only one form of sex will count - then actually went through with doing that to them. 

 

I'll spoiler this next part as it's a bit graphic but it's an example of how I deal with this issue when navigating my own sexual encounters:

 

Spoiler

 

I'm a female-bodied person but I don't enjoy vaginal sex for the sake of vaginal sex. However I do enjoy and desire receiving butt sex. If I'm having casual encounters with guys online (where there's a potential we might meet up eventually if things go well - hasn't got that far yet hence why I remain physically celibate) I explain that I have a preference for butt-sex and also extreme kink (and I outline the types of kink), along with more tame things like having the guy ejaculate onto aspects of my anatomy and into my mouth etc. If the guy expresses discomfort with any aspect of what I said then I just don't bring it up again and those actions are now off the table. Many guys actually express discomfort with the idea of giving butt-sex especially and I'm totally respectful of that. As long as he can desire some of the other things, we can continue to flirt. But if not then we just aren't compatible so we move on. 

 

 

 

 

I could never feel comfortable with the idea of pushing actions that someone doesn't desire for their own pleasure even with a relative stranger, let alone with someone who I love O_O So I will never understand the way some sexual partners are unhappy with anything other than their own preferred form of sex even when the ace is offering alternative solutions.. because how can it be enjoyable or intimate if you don't both want it? 

 

So again I say, the only reasonable solution I can see moving forward is separation because he is not interested in your suggested compromises and the only other thing would be for you to give him sex that you are not comfortable with and that will make you feel emotionally drained and probably like you're being used over time :c  And that certainly would not be conducive at all to a happy, healthy relationship. 

 

You could try to find a more empathic therapist but I'm not sure if anything can change your partner's lack of willingness to work with compromises, and nothing is going to make you enjoy or desire the one type of sex that he desires any more than you already do (which is not at all)

 

But if you separated you could remain as friends and move forward with your intimate lives separately, both seeking more compatible partners or remaining free and single. You'll probably feel an immense weight lift of your shoulders when you are free from that constant nagging pressure in the back of your mind where you know he wants sex or is angling for it, and that you cannot give it. Many aces express great joy upon finally finding themselves free from that! And he will be happy too as he can finally try to move forward and seek the type of intimacy he desires. And you can still remain friends so support each other emotionally if the separation is amicable

 

Sorry this is so long, I just wanted to try to fully explain where I'm coming from and have a busy day ahead so won't be able to reply further for some time. Also sorry if there are typos, I typed all this in a rush on my phone while still in bed so hopefully it makes sense

[Guest]

5 hours ago, RileyA said:

You're now here too. Hi Bae. 

I was here all along? 

 

5 hours ago, RileyA said:

The talk about "getting him off" is very cis-heteronormative. That's why I assumed OP was a cis woman. That's all I was saying

The OP clearly explained that they don't enjoy receiving. They cant somehow magically change the way their body works. So the OP was trying to find other solutions where their partner can still experience pleasure but in a way the ace is comfortable with. The sexual partner does not want to consider any of those solutions. This was all made extremely clear in the opening post to the extent it seems to be your own heteronormative presumptions clouding how you interpreted @OdinsSage's words.

 

Maybe if you stop making assumptions about everyone based on your own total lack of experience with asexuality and lack of experience with navigating mixed relationships then you'll no longer find yourself in situations like this in threads where literally everyone is disagreeing with you. To the extent you seem to be confused as to which thread you're even in.

[Arctangent]

It sounds like you're feeling a lot of guilt and blaming yourself for ending up in this situation. But, I don't think it's your fault. It's great that you're standing up for yourself while still exploring ways to make it work without compromising your boundaries. Unfortunately, it sounds like you're at an impasse because your partner doesn't feel satisfied with the options you've presented, and the things that would work for him would require giving up some of your own comfort, which isn't good. Sometimes two people are just fundamentally sexually incompatible - it's not necessarily anyone's fault, there's just no good way to resolve the situation that's satisfying for both parties, other than ending the relationship. We see this all the time on AVEN, unfortunately. You're certainly not alone on this.

 

I won't tell you outright that you should end the relationship - I know that's a big decision, and it's ultimately up to you. If it helps, perhaps consider this - if you are unable to find a solution that's practical and satisfying enough for both of you, do you still want to potentially be experiencing the same tension about this issue another 6 years in the future? What if, instead, you were no longer in this relationship and able to embrace your asexuality without feeling guilty about it? When you visualize that future, how do you feel? Maybe there are other things in the relationship you appreciate, and maybe you'd miss some aspects of it - but it could be worth it in the end. You'd have the opportunity to look for relationships with aces as well, this time with the knowledge of your orientation and boundaries that you didn't have when you started your current relationship.

[RileyA]

9 hours ago, Major West said:

I was here all along? 

 

The OP clearly explained that they don't enjoy receiving. They cant somehow magically change the way their body works. So the OP was trying to find other solutions where their partner can still experience pleasure but in a way the ace is comfortable with. The sexual partner does not want to consider any of those solutions. This was all made extremely clear in the opening post to the extent it seems to be your own heteronormative presumptions clouding how you interpreted @OdinsSage's words.

 

Maybe if you stop making assumptions about everyone based on your own total lack of experience with asexuality and lack of experience with navigating mixed relationships then you'll no longer find yourself in situations like this in threads where literally everyone is disagreeing with you. To the extent you seem to be confused as to which thread you're even in.

I understand you don't get it (I mean why would you?). The way the OP talked about sex was very much like a cis woman relates to a cis man. You won't get this because you were AFAB. You only know sexual interaction as person who was AFAB and only probably with cis men. If you had sex with women, you might understand how sexual interaction between queer people often follows a different script than between a cis man and woman. Maybe you do, but what I know is that anyone having queer sex would understand what I mean, that's why I suspect you do not.

 

I am a cis man who has sexual interactions with a cis woman (and many more in the past) and mostly people who were AMAB. That's how I have the perspective to talk about heteronormative sex. 

 

Now, I'm going to point out for 4th or 5th time that this tailing me around the site is weird and creepy. Please engage some self control and stop. 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, RileyA said:

If you had sex with women

There you go making assumptions again, I have had sex with many women (and have been vocal about that in the forums over the years I have been here).

 

37 minutes ago, RileyA said:

Maybe you do, but what I know is that anyone having queer sex would understand what I mean, that's why I suspect you do not.

It's you who are projecting your own biases over what is being written.

 

I have had every type of sex imaginable (with more people than you can probably imagine including multiple at once on many occasions, not a brag but a fact of my life in the past as someone who worked in the sex and kink industries) and I can tell you for a fact that it is you who are incorrect in how you are interpreting what @OdinsSage wrote.

 

OdinsSage actively wanted to explore other avenues for their partner to enjoy sex that didn't have to involve the partner actually having penetrative sex with OdinsSage. This shows openness and willingness to compromise on the part of OdinsSage and again, an attempt to explore avenues that fall outside the realms of 'heteronormative sex' for the sake of their partner.

 

And as a relatively new member you can be forgiven for also being completely unaware that over the years we have had many lesbian and gay asexual members with lesbian and gay sexual partners in variations of exactly the same position as that described in the original post because this is a mixed relationship issue, not a heteronormative issue. Example: a gay ace partner not wanting penetrative sex or to receive oral with his male partner and trying to explore other ways of keeping the sexual partner happy (ie giving oral and hand jobs, kissing while the partner masturbates, filming themselves masturbating for the partner to masturbate to etc) but resulting with the sexual partner being unhappy with these other forms of sexual intimacy unless they lead to penetrative or at least oral sex and being unwilling to compromise. These are situations mixed couples of all genders deal with constantly. You would know this if you could look past your own biases and try to view this discussion rationally.

 

37 minutes ago, RileyA said:

I am a cis man who has sexual interactions with a cis woman (and many more in the past) and mostly people who were AMAB. That's how I have the perspective to talk about heteronormative sex. 

I am a non-cis-identifying female-bodied person and have described my own extensive sexual experience previously in this reply, and who has been a very active member on this particular website for almost a decade and who has engaged in literally hundreds of these exact discussions with people of all genders, which is how I have the perspective to talk about what does and does not constitute heteronormative sex within the context at hand.

 

37 minutes ago, RileyA said:

I'm going to point out for 4th or 5th time that this tailing me around the site is weird and creepy. Please engage some self control and stop

I guess because you are quite new you don't know how to view a specific users activity? As far as I am aware my activity is not set to 'private' and I am making 10+ comments almost every single day with only a small amount of those being responses to particularly egregious comments you have made in threads I'm either already involved in or stumble across, and I almost always am actively responding to other members in the exact same threads. If you were able to look up to the top of this thread, you will see I responded to @OdinsSage twice before you came in with your opinion that:

 

 

Quote

 

 think it's no coincidence that there are many cishet female aces when you couple that with the orgasm gap and the fact that cishet men are notoriously terrible lovers.

 

I'd hazard a guess that a sizeable number of women who have only really had the experience of their unskilled husband and maybe a few high school boyfriends, will find they have different experiences as they get better at screening partners for decency and compatibility.

 

 

Which multiple AFAB members responded to explaining that you are incorrect, and I was one of them as your comment was directly beneath the previous comment I had made.

 

Again though I'm putting this down to you being a relatively new member and not knowing how to view post history, or maybe being unable to merely scroll upwards to view the above discussion?

[RileyA]

34 minutes ago, Major West said:

There you go making assumptions again, I have had sex with many women (and have been vocal about that in the forums over the years I have been here).

 

It's you who are projecting your own biases over what is being written.

 

I have had every type of sex imaginable (with more people than you can probably imagine including multiple at once on many occasions, not a brag but a fact of my life in the past as someone who worked in the sex and kink industries) and I can tell you for a fact that it is you who are incorrect in how you are interpreting what @OdinsSage wrote.

 

OdinsSage actively wanted to explore other avenues for their partner to enjoy sex that didn't have to involve the partner actually having penetrative sex with OdinsSage. This shows openness and willingness to compromise on the part of OdinsSage and again, an attempt to explore avenues that fall outside the realms of 'heteronormative sex' for the sake of their partner.

 

And as a relatively new member you can be forgiven for also being completely unaware that over the years we have had many lesbian and gay asexual members with lesbian and gay sexual partners in variations of exactly the same position as that described in the original post because this is a mixed relationship issue, not a heteronormative issue. Example: a gay ace partner not wanting penetrative sex or to receive oral with his male partner and trying to explore other ways of keeping the sexual partner happy (ie giving oral and hand jobs, kissing while the partner masturbates, filming themselves masturbating for the partner to masturbate to etc) but resulting with the sexual partner being unhappy with these other forms of sexual intimacy unless they lead to penetrative or at least oral sex and being unwilling to compromise. These are situations mixed couples of all genders deal with constantly. You would know this if you could look past your own biases and try to view this discussion rationally.

 

I am a non-cis-identifying female-bodied person and have described my own extensive sexual experience previously in this reply, and who has been a very active member on this particular website for almost a decade and who has engaged in literally hundreds of these exact discussions with people of all genders, which is how I have the perspective to talk about what does and does not constitute heteronormative sex within the context at hand.

 

I guess because you are quite new you don't know how to view a specific users activity? As far as I am aware my activity is not set to 'private' and I am making 10+ comments almost every single day with only a small amount of those being responses to particularly egregious comments you have made in threads I'm either already involved in or stumble across, and I almost always am actively responding to other members in the exact same threads. If you were able to look up to the top of this thread, you will see I responded to @OdinsSage twice before you came in with your opinion that:

 

 

 

Which multiple AFAB members responded to explaining that you are incorrect, and I was one of them as your comment was directly beneath the previous comment I had made.

 

Again though I'm putting this down to you being a relatively new member and not knowing how to view post history, or maybe being unable to merely scroll upwards to view the above discussion?

 

 

 Sorry but if you do not understand that sex can be heteronormative, then I find it hard to believe you had queer sex with women. Maybe 3somes for some dude or something. 

 

I have no interest in reading the rest of your obsessive ranting.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, RileyA said:

Sorry but if you do not understand that sex can be heteronormative

I didn't say that sex in general cannot be heteronormative but that the sex described above was not a heteronormative issue but a mixed relationship issue. Gay and lesbian asexual members have had the exact same issues with gay and lesbian sexual partners.

 

15 minutes ago, RileyA said:

I have no interest in reading the rest of your obsessive ranting.

I know it's not nice when it turns out you're wrong but it's a total cop-out just pretending you didn't read the rest. 

 

An articulate response also is not obsessive ranting but it seems to be your go-to tactic to try to discredit what I say, despite that fact that I have been posting long articulate comments on these forums for almost a decade now.

 

15 minutes ago, RileyA said:

then I find it hard to believe you had queer sex with women. Maybe 3somes for some dude or something. 

If "for some dude" includes being paid a lot of money by said dude(s) to watch me have sex with multiple women on many different occasions, or to have sex with said dudes and said dude's girlfriend/s, then yes. Being paid doesn't discredit someone's experience though.

 

However my sex with women has been under many different circumstances paid and not paid.

 

But again I know it's not nice being wrong so it'll be easier for you to either pretend you didn't read this or to try to discredit my experience in some other way (despite my extensive sexual history having been discussed many times over the years here in great detail).

[Sally]

@Major West, I hate to see you wasting your voice by trying to communicate with someone who doesn't listen.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

@Major West, I hate to see you wasting your voice by trying to communicate with someone who doesn't listen.  

Sadly it seems to often be my AVEN curse to respond to people whose opinions I find egregious even when I know what I say just goes over their heads

 

But I feel it's important for others reading who may be too shy to speak up even if they also disagree with what's being said.

 

Asexuals already have a hard-enough time navigating relationships in a hypersexual world without people coming here and pretty much invalidating their experience,  scrutinizing their mixed-relationship issues, and claiming they're somehow wrong (like claiming OdinsSage's compromising attempts were somehow too "heteronormative" - urgh) Y_Y

 

I'm fortunately a super-fast typer so it doesn't take up too much of my time at least  And now it's beer-o-clock so I can get back to relaxing and finishing my editing, then harshly judge ep 5 of Rings of Power haha :D