Musing/rant on strength, sexism and some women letting the side down.

[Zebrafinch]

Title's not quite right, but not sure how else to put it. Or if I should put it in the gender forum. 

I'm a woman in a male dominated field. I've just got a job I've wanted for years. A job I  was explicitly told I wasn't up to because I'm a woman. Mostly because most women aren't strong enough.

I've heard it too many times; that's too heavy, oh I couldn't manage that weight, you're SO strong(I'm getting to a decent level, but I don't think of myself as particularly strong), I need a man to do this, etc. And those were from women. And then there's the "why do you want to do that?" rubbish.

 

Learn how to use a barbell. Being weak is fixable. Work out what's wrong and fix it. Don't just say it hurts and not do anything. You're not weak because you're a woman, you're weak because you haven't put the work in. 

I can deadlift 110kg. I'm pretty certain there's at least a dozen other women at my old gym who can as well. And I'm going to keep training. (I am not a fitness fanatic. I'm actually fat and lazy. But being strong is fun and useful)

Basically, it's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to put the work in. Or you haven't been told you can be strong too. (there are obvious exceptions)

 

I'm not saying men don't do this, but if a man isn't strong enough it's a him problem, not a gender issue. 

Yes, I am internalising a lot here, but the physical demands of the job are the same for me as for the men I work with. I'm not ever going to be as strong as the guy I work with who's been compared to Chris Hemsworth, but I intend to keep up with the others.

 

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

If you came here to say "Why do you want to do this job?" or "You shouldn't do this", fuck off. My body, my choice, my passion. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Zebrafinch
Clarification

[Lilibulero]

That makes me want to spit.

Sometimes even if strength is required, you can get round it by use of lifting equipment, for example, so there's no need to be so discriminatory ( this is coming from someone who worked with heavy weights before lifting equipment was available and who watched men skillfully avoid doing the job, but watching the women struggling with it).

[EmeraldIce]

It's true that it's harder work for a woman than for a man to get to any specific strength level, but to say that a woman "can't" do such and such things is ridiculous. A woman who lifts will be stronger than a man who doesn't, and if she's just as capable as (or more so than) a man, that says even more about her mental resilience and work ethic.

[Zebrafinch]

18 minutes ago, Lilibulero said:

That makes me want to spit.

Sometimes even if strength is required, you can get round it by use of lifting equipment, for example, so there's no need to be so discriminatory ( this is coming from someone who worked with heavy weights before lifting equipment was available and who watched men skillfully avoid doing the job, but watching the women struggling with it).

Men avoiding the job- oh yes. Today at lunchtime, a female member of staff asked for a couple of men to move something. I did it on my own. 

While there's usually someone to help lift stuff, there isn't a way round actually being strong enough to do this job. 

[Epitaph]

I can only speak from the other side of the fence here. It would be nice if both parties could drop their variations of fixation on strength. It'd actually make it easier to do the job then. And to use a saying that I despise, "Work smarter not harder." There's always ways to compensate for what one lacks.

[RoseGoesToYale]

Just came in here to say that some people can't gain much muscle mass no matter how much they work out. My dad was one such person. Back when he was athletic, he hit the gym and weights every day and was still skinny as a beanpole. It is not a personal failing, it's genetics.

[Zebrafinch]

11 minutes ago, E said:

I can only speak from the other side of the fence here. It would be nice if both parties could drop their variations of fixation on strength. It'd actually make it easier to do the job then. And to use a saying that I despise, "Work smarter not harder." There's always ways to compensate for what one lacks.

Skill is far more important than strength, but there's no way round the fact you need to be fairly strong in my line of work. And strength makes it easier to gain that skill.

[Cranston]

1 hour ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

Just came in here to say that some people can't gain much muscle mass no matter how much they work out. My dad was one such person. Back when he was athletic, he hit the gym and weights every day and was still skinny as a beanpole. It is not a personal failing, it's genetics.

This

 

Body type has a lot to do with it. I've been told by health professionals that my body type (tall, skinny, long legs) predisposes me to joint issues, so if I lift, I have to be very careful

[RileyA]

Injuring yourself on what is likely an underpaid job and disabling yourself for life, just to move something swiftly for your boss? Not clever.

 

The people who use equipment or even delegate to someone less smart or conscious about their health are the clever ones. 

 

Great, you moved the heavy thing for your boss who is currently ordering a yacht for their kid's sweet 16. How does that better your life? Was it even compensated financially? 

 

If you want to be a strong woman, compete in strength sports or at least work out a lot. You get that shine for your efforts. Showing how well you can slave for your capitalist boss isn't you shining for you.

[Sally]

43 minutes ago, RileyA said:

Injuring yourself on what is likely an underpaid job and disabling yourself for life, just to move something swiftly for your boss? Not clever.

 

The people who use equipment or even delegate to someone less smart or conscious about their health are the clever ones. 

 

Great, you moved the heavy thing for your boss who is currently ordering a yacht for their kid's sweet 16. How does that better your life? Was it even compensated financially? 

 

If you want to be a strong woman, compete in strength sports or at least work out a lot. You get that shine for your efforts. Showing how well you can slave for your capitalist boss isn't you shining for you.

Thanks for much for your helpful advice to women who probably have to do what their bosses direct them to do, because they need their job.  

[RileyA]

8 minutes ago, Sally said:

Thanks for much for your helpful advice to women who probably have to do what their bosses direct them to do, because they need their job.  

The advice is to anyone with a manual job. Also the person speaking says that other colleagues (namely women) seem to be able to keep their jobs and delegate the tasks.... so... I don't see the point in injuring yourself to be a hero, at work, to make someone else richer...

[The Abhorred]

In my first job the guy who was training me was a complete jerk, very rude to me cause he hated the fact that he had to train me and also meant that it will take more time to finish the job and go home. One of the things he said was that the company shouldn't hire female employees for this kind of job (meter reader) cause some of the metal lids that we had to lift were really heavy, so in my training he was lifting them for me. When I was out on my own I did find a method that allowed me to lift those lids and actually was quite skilled, I loved that job.

 

@RileyA I totally agree with what you said. In an other job that I did that required lifting weight I quite often asked for help, to share the task not for the other one to do the lifting for me. 

[Zebrafinch]

9 hours ago, RileyA said:

Injuring yourself on what is likely an underpaid job and disabling yourself for life, just to move something swiftly for your boss? Not clever.

 

The people who use equipment or even delegate to someone less smart or conscious about their health are the clever ones. 

 

Great, you moved the heavy thing for your boss who is currently ordering a yacht for their kid's sweet 16. How does that better your life? Was it even compensated financially? 

 

If you want to be a strong woman, compete in strength sports or at least work out a lot. You get that shine for your efforts. Showing how well you can slave for your capitalist boss isn't you shining for you.

Your reading comprehension seems to be about the same level as your current job satisfaction. 

This isn't an amazon warehouse, this is something incredibly  highly skilled I want to spend the rest of my life doing.

Yes, I am aware I can get hurt doing it - that's one of the reasons I train.

The woman I lifted stuff for yesterday doesn't do my job. She works in a different department. 

Good luck finding a new job- it sounds like you need one.

[RileyA]

7 minutes ago, Zebrafinch said:

Your reading comprehension seems to be about the same level as your current job satisfaction. 

This isn't an amazon warehouse, this is something incredibly  highly skilled I want to spend the rest of my life doing.

Yes, I am aware I can get hurt doing it - that's one of the reasons I train.

The woman I lifted stuff for yesterday doesn't do my job. She works in a different department. 

Good luck finding a new job- it sounds like you need one.

 

 

Lol I only work my own land. I stopped selling my body and mind for richer folks to profit from. Rather keep that in my family who will be the ones to look after my ass should I break my back working for them. 

 

I say the women getting someone else to do it and still picking up the paycheck they are contracted to receive are wiser than someone who is literally working to pay for their healthcare later in life.

 

I come from a rural background, in a state with a staggering proportion of disabled people of working age (through rural work mostly) and a high rate of suicide. I take workplace injury/disability very seriously. There's no pride in working yourself into a life of chronic pain. 

 

That's my experiences on the matter 

 

 

[EmeraldIce]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:25 AM, RileyA said:

The advice is to anyone with a manual job. Also the person speaking says that other colleagues (namely women) seem to be able to keep their jobs and delegate the tasks.... so... I don't see the point in injuring yourself to be a hero, at work, to make someone else richer...

Did you miss the part where she is that person that smart people should delegate their work to because she is physically strong and capable of doing it?

[RileyA]

12 hours ago, EmeraldIce said:

Did you miss the part where she is that person that smart people should delegate their work to because she is physically strong and capable of doing it?

The smart person isn't the one breaking their back at work and bragging about it. The smart person is the one who gets paid and gets someone else to disable themselves working for someone else. 

On 9/17/2022 at 12:17 PM, RileyA said:

I say the women getting someone else to do it and still picking up the paycheck they are contracted to receive are wiser than someone who is literally working to pay for their healthcare later in life.

I'll repeat this ^^

[Zebrafinch]

10 hours ago, RileyA said:

The smart person isn't the one breaking their back at work and bragging about it. The smart person is the one who gets paid and gets someone else to disable themselves working for someone else. 

I'll repeat this ^^

Read my edit and go back under your bridge. 

[RileyA]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:43 PM, Zebrafinch said:

you came here to say "Why do you want to do this job?" or "You shouldn't do this", fuck off. My body, my choice, my passion. 

 

 

Yep so don't look down on the smart people who would rather not live a life of agony proving to their rich boss what a strong human they are.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

The AVEN Terms of Service states the following: 

Quote

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[Epitaph]

On 9/16/2022 at 4:46 PM, Zebrafinch said:

Skill is far more important than strength, but there's no way round the fact you need to be fairly strong in my line of work. And strength makes it easier to gain that skill.

 

There's no denying that some work and some jobs do require physical strength. But leave it to the people that actually want to do those jobs. The rest will filter out and away from those types of jobs, and whatever their reasons are, it's valid, because at the end of the day a job is just a job. 

[Guest]

On 9/17/2022 at 8:43 AM, Zebrafinch said:

Title's not quite right, but not sure how else to put it. Or if I should put it in the gender forum. 

I'm a woman in a male dominated field. I've just got a job I've wanted for years. A job I  was explicitly told I wasn't up to because I'm a woman. Mostly because most women aren't strong enough.

I've heard it too many times; that's too heavy, oh I couldn't manage that weight, you're SO strong(I'm getting to a decent level, but I don't think of myself as particularly strong), I need a man to do this, etc. And those were from women. And then there's the "why do you want to do that?" rubbish.

 

Learn how to use a barbell. Being weak is fixable. Work out what's wrong and fix it. Don't just say it hurts and not do anything. You're not weak because you're a woman, you're weak because you haven't put the work in. 

I can deadlift 110kg. I'm pretty certain there's at least a dozen other women at my old gym who can as well. And I'm going to keep training. (I am not a fitness fanatic. I'm actually fat and lazy. But being strong is fun and useful)

Basically, it's not that you can't do it, it's that you don't want to put the work in. Or you haven't been told you can be strong too. (there are obvious exceptions)

 

I'm not saying men don't do this, but if a man isn't strong enough it's a him problem, not a gender issue. 

Yes, I am internalising a lot here, but the physical demands of the job are the same for me as for the men I work with. I'm not ever going to be as strong as the guy I work with who's been compared to Chris Hemsworth, but I intend to keep up with the others.

 

Thoughts? Experiences?

 

If you came here to say "Why do you want to do this job?" or "You shouldn't do this", fuck off. My body, my choice, my passion. 

 

My question is: would they give the same job to a very weedy, scrawny, small man?

 

If they would (but wouldn't give it to a woman regardless of how strong she is), then that's definitely sexism.

 

But if the job clearly requires upper body strength regardless of gender (ie the job where my brother has to load huge containers filled with fish all day every day, most of which way upwards of 80-100lbs) and they're only giving it to people who are clearly very strong, then imo it's not sexism even though fewer women will get the job. It's just that they have insurance etc to deal with, and often time constraints as well, so if you're likely to be crushed by the huge containers or will be very slow then it's not in their best interests to employ you. I'd be much more likely to get a job cleaning at my brother's work rather than stacking the containers, as the containers would literally crush me and even if I managed to lift them I'd be extremely slow.

 

However there are of course women who work out and can lift that kind of weight, and it's definitely sexism if the woman can prove that she can lift that weight all day and is still denied the job!

[Lysandre, the Star-Crossed]

1 hour ago, Major West said:

 

My question is: would they give the same job to a very weedy, scrawny, small man?

 

If they would (but wouldn't give it to a woman regardless of how strong she is), then that's definitely sexism.

 

But if the job clearly requires upper body strength regardless of gender (ie the job where my brother has to load huge containers filled with fish all day every day, most of which way upwards of 80-100lbs) and they're only giving it to people who are clearly very strong, then imo it's not sexism even though fewer women will get the job. It's just that they have insurance etc to deal with, and often time constraints as well, so if you're likely to be crushed by the huge containers or will be very slow then it's not in their best interests to employ you. I'd be much more likely to get a job cleaning at my brother's work rather than stacking the containers, as the containers would literally crush me and even if I managed to lift them I'd be extremely slow.

 

However there are of course women who work out and can lift that kind of weight, and it's definitely sexism if the woman can prove that she can lift that weight all day and is still denied the job!

I like how my employer does it. They make everyone who applies agree to take a physical capacity test against a baseline, anyone who fails has their job offer rescinded. Doesn't matter that I passed without breaking a sweat and my elderly female coworker had to work at it, it was binary pass/fail and we both proved ourselves strong enough. That's all that matters, and frankly she's much more qualified in many other ways than I am.

[The French Unicorn]

On 9/19/2022 at 7:36 PM, RileyA said:

 

 

Yep so don't look down on the smart people who would rather not live a life of agony proving to their rich boss what a strong human they are.

Smart people are the one who do the job they like if they can.

Clearly @Zebrafinchenjoy her work and she can do it. So she is smart.

Period.

[Guest]

I agree with you, it's not about gender, but about many women not being willing to work on it. 

 

I'm very bad with weights, but I wouldn't say I am weak, because, I know, if I put on the right effort, I'll measure up. Even if I was uncapable, then I would find a smart way to get it done without having to lift things with my hands. 

 

It's so cool that you can lift such heavy things. I do agree that being treated like "Not a normal woman" because you are strong can be so annoying. But at the same time, you'd find many only working on their butts and keeping the "unable to lift much" status.

[Lilibulero]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:43 PM, Zebrafinch said:

can deadlift 110kg. I'm pretty certain there's at least a dozen other women at my old gym who can as well.

Yep, I get it. I started my job before they developed specialised lifting equipment so we did it ourselves. Even today, although my job now has lifting equipment,  everyone is trained yearly to manually handle weights.

 

My mother, however, was a workhorse. She was a farm labourer before mechanisation, so, out in the fields in the fresh air, lifting fields of vegetables. It gave her hands like shovels and the constitution of an ox. 

 

Thankfully, I've inherited her constitution, so I'm biased. Moving your body is good for you. Sitting at a desk is not.

 

You go gal.

[rebis]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:36 PM, RileyA said:

 

 

Yep so don't look down on the smart people who would rather not live a life of agony proving to their rich boss what a strong human they are.

The heart of the argument here seems to be that there is no physically safe way to perform manual labor. That is not true. You can spend your life lifting and moving things, without ending up crippled as a reward in your old age, if you work safely. That of course includes knowing and being realistic about your limits.

 

I mean, particularly because OP mentioned exercising with weights. You really don't get very far there if you don't learn to use proper form, and are mindful of not pushing too far. I'd guess the same skills are used at work, so no reason to assume OP is working in an unsafe manner.

[Gloomy]

I’ll give my two cents as someone who currently can’t really work on getting stronger for the time being (TW for eating disorders and stuff). TL;DR I have my reasons for not doing much lifting right now.

 

Spoiler

I’m a recovering anorexic and still technically underweight by BMI standards, so I’m just not gonna be able to lift as much as some people. My body is healing and even if I were naturally this thin, there’s a certain percentage of your body weight that’s just impossible to lift no matter how much you train. People’s bodies and muscles can only lift so much weight, that’s just physics. Whether we like it or not there are factors like muscle mass that could be affected by biological sex.

 

Granted I am stronger the more I lift. I was doing strength training every day for a while when I first started recovering because I wanted to build muscle (which looking back may or may not have been dumb of me considering the state my body was in) and did get pretty strong all things considered. I felt so strong and confident, yet my weight wasn’t budging from its low weight and I was still concerned about my physical health, with that fear in the back of my mind that I was gonna randomly drop dead like Karen Carpenter, so I decided I probably shouldn’t work out much until my weight gets back up to a certain point.

 

[Acing It]

The reverse applies as well. I've seen many a woman lift things and whenever a man turns up, they suddenly can't lift the same things anymore and ask the man to do it, telling him it's 'men's work' (spoiler, there's generally no such thing... it's down to individuals to decide what they can and can't do, not society - my view anyway).

I don't stand for being told what I can and cannot do, nor will I delegate tasls to what society sees as the appropriate gender for some jobs if I can do it myself. 

[notactuallymerida]

On 10/10/2022 at 7:38 PM, Acing It said:

The reverse applies as well. I've seen many a woman lift things and whenever a man turns up, they suddenly can't lift the same things anymore and ask the man to do it, telling him it's 'men's work' (spoiler, there's generally no such thing... it's down to individuals to decide what they can and can't do, not society - my view anyway).

I don't stand for being told what I can and cannot do, nor will I delegate tasls to what society sees as the appropriate gender for some jobs if I can do it myself. 

Luckily I’ve encountered only a few women who think like that. They know exactly that they can get away with delegating their tasks to others and so they do it. It’s just unfair to the other people that have to do more work as a result. 

 

Another thing that really enrages and actually worries me, is that apparently I’m not allowed to learn certain skills that would be extremely helpful for my later life (probably alone, certainly not with a man) "because as a woman you simply can’t do that, you’ll either need a man in your life or pay someone to do it for you." I’ll end up helpless because the few people who could refuse to teach me. 

[Acing It]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:02 PM, notactuallymerida said:

Luckily I’ve encountered only a few women who think like that. They know exactly that they can get away with delegating their tasks to others and so they do it. It’s just unfair to the other people that have to do more work as a result. 

 

Another thing that really enrages and actually worries me, is that apparently I’m not allowed to learn certain skills that would be extremely helpful for my later life (probably alone, certainly not with a man) "because as a woman you simply can’t do that, you’ll either need a man in your life or pay someone to do it for you." I’ll end up helpless because the few people who could refuse to teach me. 

What are those? I know that many people's eyes grow as big as plates when you do your own plumbing as a woman lol. Is it worse as a man if they say they sew their own clothes I wonder? 

I really don't care anymore these days. There's youtube if I don't know how to do things and I've tiled a floor, which looks really great, I have done my own plumbing without anyone telling me how to, and it works, etc...