I need help about understanding the "demiboy" identity

[Kroete]

What is the difference between a man and a demiboy?

 

Because suddenly, I am slightly confused about my gender. I am now confused about whether I am a cis man, or a demiman/demiboy. Kinda sorta. I am starting this thread because I think I need help. Quick reminder, a demiman (or demiboy) is someone who identifies with being a man, but only partially. But I'm not sure if I'm getting this right.

 

So what actually makes demiboys/demimen different from cis men? What does it actually mean to a demiboy/demiman?

 

I might not fully associate with masculinity or masculine stereotypes, but is that enough to be no longer cis? Because not all cis men fit 100% of the stereotypes either, yet they're still cis.

 

Another question: I heard demiboys are automatically non-binary and transgender (under the umbrella). Is this true? Why? I'm really not sure if I'm happy being suddenly trans only because I only feel kinda, but not fully connected to maleness.

 

Overall, I am not actually asking you what gender I am. I am more asking about if you have helpful tips and questions and maybe own experiences to help me come closer to the truth. Also, if you find logical flaws, PLEASE tell me. I am still learning about gender, after all, and I expect to do many things wrong, and I want to unlearn all the bad stereotypes once at a time.

 

And now I am going to list some things I know about myself:

 

• Spoiler

   

  • I am definitely not a woman. I feel no connection to womanhood at all
  • If I would wake up tomorrow and find myself to be suddenly like a woman, I probably would panic and scream
  • I have no dysphoria about being considered a man
  • I have no problem taking "male" as an answer in all gender questions
  • I am AMAB and also identified as boy/male forever with no problem
  • I had no problem identifying as a cis man so far
  • BUT! Now comes the catch: I recently realized my identifying with maleness was never that important or strong to me. I rarely understand gender stereotypes and often find them kinda cringe. But I don't think this is something personal, I just think many gender stereotypes really *are* irrational.
  • You might say my stance to my maleness is a "whatever" attitude, but not completely "whatever" (so agender is off the table). I mean, I am male, my brain tells me I am male, but it's not a strong feeling
  • Because I obsessed on so many LGBTQ topics in the past months (including gender), I learned a lot about genders. I did half-seriously consider agender for a while, also non-binary, but I quickly discarded this now because they still feel too far removed from malehood. I just can't completely detach myself from malehood, I just can't do it, that's why I don't think agender/enby is right.
  • I do some things that are "typically male" but practically no "typically female" things. On the other hand that alone says nothing, because gender identity is unrelated to hobbies. Right?
  • I know this sounds kind of silly, but I consider (considered?) myself man because I got a penis and overall clearly a typically male body. Yes, it's that simple lol. (not trying to invalidate anyone, just how I see it for myself, and myself only)
  • I love to grow out all my hair (facial/head/beard/etc.). My "head hair" are intentionally long but I don't associate it with femaleness, these are just the hair that grow out of me naturally, lol. I actually feel deeply offended if someone considers my hair "female"
  • I knew about the "demiboy" identity for a few months now, but I never really asked myself if it applies to me
  • Although my connectedness to malehood isn't strong, I also don't mind at all if people call me man. I would only be annoyed if people would call me female or "genderless"
  • My pronoun is and always was "he"
  • I am in this questioning/confused state since about 1-2 days now. I'm not sure if this is a fluke or if it's actually legit this time
  • I did not question my gender until recently

   

   

 

I also have a problem. I am kinda ... scared of the outcome. I know I shouldn't be, but I am.

 

If I stick with cisgender man, I'm afraid I just too conformist.

And if start identifying as demiman, I'm afraid I just do this to fit into "The Club" (TM).

 

Thanks for reading this very long text!

[hewhomainsness]

wow this is very similar to my own experiences actually

i couldn't tell you but now i'm going on another research binge

[Lord Revan]

Demiboy is basically being in between non-binary, and male, hope that helped

[banana monkey]

Ok, sorry if this is a long post but I feel almost exactly the same as you only re femaleness. ie Being Woman or Demiwoman. Your post basically are my exact thoughts. Its true that Demiwoman/demiboy can be considered as NB identity because if  NB is anything that is not Man or Woman but I  think there may also be some demigendered people who dont identify as NB (given that each person chooses how they identify and there own labels). I have made other posts about this after I found another term meaning almost the same thing and someone said demi was often used as 50% but it is not always. Another thing I've grappled with is how do I know if I'm demiwoman or demiman. I mean you say "identifies only partially" but I've always thought it was kind of the other way around ie - I Identify as demiwoman so I identify as mostly female but with something else as well, (so only partially not fully female). For some people that "something else" may be male, but it may also be agender or another NB identity. I used to identify as demigirl because I felt a little bit male but now I think it may actually be a little agender I'm not sure. When people at work started talking about NB more, I started wondering if I should start identifying as it (I sometimes do, sometimes dont because I cant work it out) and more pressingly if I should change my pronouns. I then realised that I should use whatever pronouns I am comfortable with. It may be as I am more female than agender or male. I feel more comfortable using she rather than they because I dont feel fully inbetween. I do toy with using they from time to time though. After this I started questioning again. I have since realised that I go through cycles of questioning and then not. I may actually be genderfluid in that sometimes I am demigirl and feel a small bit male/agender and the other times I just feel female. I dont know, I'm still working it out. Will add more later.The other thing to remember as I was first told is that this all relates to how you feel inside your brain not how you choose to dress (or express your gender in other ways). eg. Some male people may choose to present as female (eg. drag queens). This doesnt mean that they dont identify as male. So I can be fully female and choose to wear a binder or present as male if I wish. Some people refer to this as gender non conforming. So if I  wear neutral or male clothes it may mean that I am non binary but it may also just be that I am a gender non conforming female and like wearing those clothes and presenting masculine for whatever reason. Not to stereotype here but there are some lesbians that are like this. They like presenting masculine but they still feel fully female. 

[AstrophelDragon]

1 hour ago, Kroete said:

If I stick with cisgender man, I'm afraid I just too conformist

It's not "conformist" to feel like the gender you were assigned. You don't have to agree with gender stereotypes or the idea of masculinity to be male. Honestly, sometimes I dislike identifying as genderfluid because I'd rather just help break female stereotypes (being AFAB) rather than making it seem like because I am unstereotypically female, I must not actually be female. However, I identify as genderfluid anyway because that's what my internal sense of gender tells me I am. But on the days I feel female, sometimes I enjoy feeling feminine and doing feminine-coded things, but other times I still enjoy just breaking those stereotypes and seeming unfeminine, even if I see myself as a girl that day.

 

That's a lot of words to basically say that gender is not about stereotypes, but about whatever your internal sense tells you you are. Which is maybe not very helpful because idk how to describe that internal sense

[Milque Toast]

demi-boy here !!! hello!! hope I can be of service o7

 

2 hours ago, Kroete said:

a demiman (or demiboy) is someone who identifies with being a man, but only partially. But I'm not sure if I'm getting this right.

no issues on this! 

 

2 hours ago, Kroete said:

Another question: I heard demiboys are automatically non-binary and transgender (under the umbrella). Is this true? Why? I'm really not sure if I'm happy being suddenly trans only because I only feel kinda, but not fully connected to maleness.

I'd say, you only have to consider yourself trans/non-binary if you WANT to. The main reason I consider myself trans is more because I identify with demiboy while being AFAB. And non-binary, simply because if I were given a checkbox for my gender of 'male' or 'female', I would not feel comfortable ticking either of those options (plus also identifying with neutral/neutrois which is inherently non-binary). I am non-binary first, male second. If being male is your first priority, you can still be demimale, trans or non-binary regardless! It's 100% up to you which terms you are comfortable using for yourself. 

And honestly, those words you used right there, "feeling kinda, but not fully connected to maleness", is the exact words I would use for myself, too. Of course though, the same descriptions can lead to different labels, but just letting you know!

 

2 hours ago, Kroete said:

I do some things that are "typically male" but practically no "typically female" things. On the other hand that alone says nothing, because gender identity is unrelated to hobbies. Right?

Yes! Your hobbies don't say anything about your gender 👍 

 

2 hours ago, Kroete said:

I know this sounds kind of silly, but I consider (considered?) myself man because I got a penis and overall clearly a typically male body. Yes, it's that simple lol. (not trying to invalidate anyone, just how I see it for myself, and myself only)

This is totally valid! If your physical appearance affects what gender you see yourself as, that's totally cool. And I mean, it was hard to stop seeing myself as a girl until I got my hair cut short, and I could look at myself and really believe I was non-binary.

[Typhoon]

After reading what you wrote, I see myself the same way apart except I'm not a big fan of beards. I've always considered myself male but only just, to put it into simple terms let's say you need 50 points to be male and I have 58.  I though about being non-binary but it's not something I feel very strongly about or really connect with. I don't feel NB and I'm happy enough as a man.

 

Best of luck figuring yourself out.

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 hour ago, AstrophelDragon said:

Honestly, sometimes I dislike identifying as genderfluid because I'd rather just help break female stereotypes (being AFAB) rather than making it seem like because I am unstereotypically female, I must not actually be female. However, I identify as genderfluid anyway because that's what my internal sense of gender tells me I am.

Similarly, I identify as female because I just don't feel that I'm anything else. But I also feel that there's really only one way in which my gender matters to me: the political, through how women are sometimes even degraded, insulted in culture - and this makes me feel that I have to stand for my rights, I have to to defend women, to insist that we can be everything and that what misogynists say about us are despicable lies.

Other layers of gender are meaningless to me precisely because I'm asexual.

This is precisely why I enter "feminist", and not simply "female", in my personal details section: for me it means that my sense of being female is strongly intermediated by my feminist views.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

It just comes down to being true to you. Being cis is not 'conforming', it's just how most people are. You don't have to follow what people say a guy has to be like, you can be however you want no matter how you identify. It's about how you connect to your own gender. Demigender means identifying as only partially a gender, which means the rest of you is open to being agender or something else.

However you identify, I hope it just makes you feel more like you, basically

[SilenceRadio]

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

So what actually makes demiboys/demimen different from cis men? What does it actually mean to a demiboy/demiman?

I understand wanting to know the answer to those questions, but I don't think it's the right approach? As in... there isn't anything that would stop you from considering yourself to be a demiguy, if you wanted to. It's not that some people are demimen and some people are cis men and something beyond your control can determine which category you belong in. Gender is first and foremost a self-determining act, and the (often unchosen) feelings we englobe into terms are real... but that doesn't stop the terms from being made by us. Here's the coining post for "demiboy", you might connect with it (as other people did in that thread). Words got created because we needed them. Someone out there needed a term for their gender, and didn't even think it would catch on, but it did, because other people found the term useful for themselves, to describe their relationship to gender. And if you find some use it to it, then you can use it too.

 

I'm assuming the "significant difference" (but doesn't have to be for anyone else) between a cis man and a demiman who was AMAB is that that the cis man may be fine being a man, in spite of a potential disconnect and/or falling outside certain norms, whereas the demiman relates more to the nonbinary and not-exactly-male experience and actively decided to partially reject their assigned gender. But that's just one perspective among many. You'd have to talk and/or hear about the stories of multiple cis men and demimen in order to see who you relate to the most, I assume.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

I might not fully associate with masculinity or masculine stereotypes, but is that enough to be no longer cis? Because not all cis men fit 100% of the stereotypes either, yet they're still cis.

As I said, gender is something you can only determine for yourself. There isn't a threshold where the most feminine man ever becomes a woman or something and loses his cis card, that's not really how gender works. The cis men who don't fit stereotypes are cis men... because they consider themselves cis men. The demimen are demimen and not cis men... because they consider themselves to be demimen. Someone could be nonbinary and fit the stereotypes of their assigned gender and they would still be nonbinary and not cis, because they identify as nonbinary. No one can take your gender away, or change it because of your behavior. You're the only one who gets to situate yourself gender-wise.

 

Stuff like pronouns and gender dysphoria/discomfort might lead someone to prefer a trans/nonbinary identity over a cis one, but not always. It highly depends on your needs.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

Another question: I heard demiboys are automatically non-binary and transgender (under the umbrella). Is this true? Why? I'm really not sure if I'm happy being suddenly trans only because I only feel kinda, but not fully connected to maleness.

There's no such thing as "automatic" when it comes to identity. Some demisexuals consider themselves under the ace umbrella, some don't. Some nonbinary people are trans, some don't ID as trans. Some genderless/agender folks don't identify as trans or as nonbinary. You don't have to pick words you don't feel comfortable with, though I will say that "nonbinary" is a really, really broad umbrella term. You don't have to use it, of course, but you don't have to see it as something restricted to people that are unaligned and not "close" to cis experiences either. I think reading some of Bramblepatch's posts (can't remember which one was more insightful on that, unfortunately) helped me understand this "spectrumized" approach to gender. Like, instead of gender being a single line with "man" on one end and "woman" on the other, it's like two dots for the "binary" genders in the middle of a rainbow. Perhaps a bit too abstract, eh. But that's fine, there's many ways to visualize gender anyway.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

If I would wake up tomorrow and find myself to be suddenly like a woman, I probably would panic and scream

What do you mean by "woman" here? Is it about bodies, or is that more mental?

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

• I have no dysphoria about being considered a man
• I have no problem taking "male" as an answer in all gender questions
• I am AMAB and also identified as boy/male forever with no problem
• I had no problem identifying as a cis man so far

Being trans or nonbinary is "not about whether the old shoe fits, it’s about whether the new shoe fits better." You don't need a level of suffering or disconnect to reject your assigned gender, and it's common for trans and/or nonbinary people to think about gender later in life. I sure had no problem identifying as cis... until I did, and by the time I did not, I didn't have enough reasons to go back to being cis. You don't even need gender euphoria, you can simply... be whatever gender you want to be. Being fine with being considered one gender doesn't imply being that gender necessarily, though it can for many people.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

• You might say my stance to my maleness is a "whatever" attitude, but not completely "whatever" (so agender is off the table). I mean, I am male, my brain tells me I am male, but it's not a strong feeling

What do you mean by "my brain tells me I am male"?

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

Because I obsessed on so many LGBTQ topics in the past months (including gender), I learned a lot about genders. I did half-seriously consider agender for a while, also non-binary, but I quickly discarded this now because they still feel too far removed from malehood. I just can't completely detach myself from malehood, I just can't do it, that's why I don't think agender/enby is right.

I suppose it might be interesting to get at the reason why? I mean, I used to pretty confidently identify as cis, thinking it was ridiculous to think I was anything else, only to realize that most of it amounted to being comfortable in my body and not having gender dysphoria (because I used to believe what transmedicalists said about gender). Not to say it is the same for you, but it is called "questioning" for a reason, after all.

 

Some of my posts in this thread are about "close to cis" experiences, perhaps it might help.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

• I am in this questioning/confused state since about 1-2 days now. I'm not sure if this is a fluke or if it's actually legit this time
• I did not question my gender until recently

That's okay, we all had to start somewhere anyway. It doesn't make it illegitimate. Questioning, even if it's for a short time, is always legitimate: I don't think it would be "illegitimate" if you ended up IDing as cis afterwards, y'know, questioning is questioning and going back to your former label is as legitimate as discarding it.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 7:38 PM, Kroete said:

I also have a problem. I am kinda ... scared of the outcome. I know I shouldn't be, but I am.

 

If I stick with cisgender man, I'm afraid I just too conformist.

And if start identifying as demiman, I'm afraid I just do this to fit into "The Club" (TM).

There's nothing conformist about questioning your assigned gender. Thinking you might be anything but cis is already quite a step compared to most other cis folks. If the shoe still fits, there's nothing to feel guilty about. And it's extremely common to have impostor syndrome regarding being non-cis, to think you're just doing it because it's "supposedly trendy" or whatever. The thing is, if you ID as a demiman, you're not hurting anyone. People feeling more comfortable with being non-cis weakens cisnormativity. I used to think I was just mentally copying what other nonbinary people did, that I was just trying to "fit in" in a marginalized group, much like you do. I'll say that it doesn't matter why you're feeling the way you do, or if you're even "wrong" (you can't really be wrong, technically, because it's not a matter of "right" or "wrong"), you always, always have the right not to be cis. It can't be taken away from you. If you want a seat in the table, you can.

 

I mean, think about it: if an AVENite comes here, questioning if they're ace, we're not going to accuse them of just wanting to fit in a club. We're a community, we're here to help and support one another. A club is a place where people can meet each other, right? Well, what's so bad about being among people who get you? Most of us want to relate to other people, and have them relate to us. To feel less alone, to understand how to deal with our own specific issues. More people in "the club" mean more people to bond with and to discuss with, more perspectives we haven't heard of. By all means, if you feel dissatisfied with being cis, join "the club"! You don't have to suck it up because some cisnormative people want there to be as less non-cis people as possible. There's nothing wrong with being either a cis man or a demiman, or wanting to belong somewhere.

[AstrophelDragon]

Which then brings up the impossible question of how you actually define gender...

[Kroete]

Woah, I am quite amazed by these kind and helpful responses. They have been so helpful and they put a big smile on my face. And they made me think, you gave me an insight into the confusing gender world. And SilenceRadio, your response is incredible, it brings up a lot of food for thought. This is so valuable for someone who still needs to learn (and un-learn) things about gender. I am just so happy about all the amazing responses.

 

(sorry for the long post, but I have to reply to many people lol)

 

Gender is just so complicated and although I've read so much in the past, I still wasn't sure I understood it, which is also a big reason why I posted this. This thread is partially about understanding the demiboy identity in general, but also partially about understanding myself.

 

The best part of the responses is that they destroy some of my fears. Thank you for reminding about the imposter syndrome and debunking my worries about "conformity", this was important to me and removes a lot of pressure. I guess my fears were unfounded then. This is actually a huge relief to me, and I'm no longer "afraid" of being either gender.

 

I still need to think about this for a while and I definitely need to check out those links. Identifying with a demigender feels like a big step. Or maybe it isn't, actually? I don't know.

Because personally, being a man, and being a demiman, those two genders "feel" like they are rather close to each other. I mean, it's both "man" in the name, am I right? XD

 

It's so cool to know that the term "demiboy" came from AVEN itself.

 

The weird part is, when I started identifying as asexual, this was like instant. It just instantly made "click" when I realized asexuality described me. There was no phase of questioning at all and this realization came like a shock but I very quickly came to terms with it. But with gender, I seem to be slower. Gender is just so freaking complicated! XD

I wonder why I didn't immediately jump on "demiboy" once I consider it but instead became gender-questioning.

On the other hand, I DID hold bigoted views about gender (I swallowed many of the famous alt-right talking points about transgender, basically, until I finally listened to the ACTUAL science and learned the anti-trans brigade is full of shit) not many years ago, and maybe I still did not fully overcome it and I still need to learn. Could my worries be informed by my past bigotry?

 

Quote

Demiboy is basically being in between non-binary, and male, hope that helped

This is so cool to hear because I also feel like this.

When it comes to enby/trans. Well, I personally feel like those technically apply, as they are often seen as umbrella terms. But I struggle with seeing myself as trans. Because I still definitely do identify with being a man, which *is* my assigned gender at birth, the question is more like if I 100% identify with it.

 

It seems like demigenders are neither cis nor trans but more like an "in-between"? Or does the cis/trans distinction need to be binary? As the common definition of cis is that you FULLY identify with your AGAB (which creates a pretty hard cut-off line).

My problem is this: If me being a demiman means I'm trans, it feels like I am denying a part of my "cis identity", my AGAB (boy/man), but I still DO identify with being a man ... kinda. It's confusing. Is it fair to say that the cis/trans distinction is actually just another binary? Or do you think this is offensive (this question goes out to all the proud trans people here)?

 

I have a similar problem with "non-binary". This means you're neither man nor woman. Well, I still am a man or a demiman (still not sure), and if I'm demiman, I still feel connected to the male gender (and thus "The Binary(TM)"). Just not fully.

 

I saw a video short in the Internet explaining demiboy to me and the person explained that demiboy is under the non-binary umbrella which is in turn under the trans umbrella. For some reason, this video made me VERY uncomfortable. 😕

 

I think the only gender umbrella term for "demiman" I see no problem with is "genderqueer" (and "demigender" for obvious reasons). This makes much more sense to think of it as "queering gender" (which is open to interpretation) rather than "not be one of the binary genders" (which feels pretty strict). I think the demiman gender 100% is queering gender.

 

Quote

I'd say, you only have to consider yourself trans/non-binary if you WANT to. The main reason I consider myself trans is more because I identify with demiboy while being AFAB. And non-binary, simply because if I were given a checkbox for my gender of 'male' or 'female', I would not feel comfortable ticking either of those options (plus also identifying with neutral/neutrois which is inherently non-binary). I am non-binary first, male second. If being male is your first priority, you can still be demimale, trans or non-binary regardless! It's 100% up to you which terms you are comfortable using for yourself.

Wow, this is such an incredible insight to me and it's a really strong case for how a demiboy identity CAN be seen as trans. (Please don't see the previous paragraphs as an attack, I was talking about how I would interpret my own identity in relation to enby/trans.) Thanks for sharing you experience, this really made me think.
To me, the "choose a binary gender" thing would not be an issue. I would 100% pick "male" and I never felt uncomfortable with that before. Which probably explains why I never questioned my gender before, it just happened to be never an issue. It's more like that "demiman" might hit the truth a little bit better, idk.

Although I still think this forced (!) gender distinction needs to stop because I know it sucks for *other* people.

 

 

Quote

I'm assuming the "significant difference" (but doesn't have to be for anyone else) between a cis man and a demiman who was AMAB is that that the cis man may be fine being a man, in spite of a potential disconnect and/or falling outside certain norms, whereas the demiman relates more to the nonbinary and not-exactly-male experience and actively decided to partially reject their assigned gender.

I feel like "not-exactly-male" sounds relatable. I will definitely check out those links, thx!

 

Quote

As I said, gender is something you can only determine for yourself. There isn't a threshold where the most feminine man ever becomes a woman or something and loses his cis card, that's not really how gender works.

OK, this part of your response (SilenceRadio) confuses me a little. I thought gender is the social construct that is ascribed or "forced" to you by society and therefore is not determined by you. Only gender identity is determined by yourself. Now, this statement contradicts this a little. Hmmmm ... Or is it OK to use the word "gender" synonymously with "gender identity"?

 

Quote

I suppose it might be interesting to get at the reason why? I mean, I used to pretty confidently identify as cis, thinking it was ridiculous to think I was anything else, only to realize that most of it amounted to being comfortable in my body and not having gender dysphoria (because I used to believe what transmedicalists said about gender). Not to say it is the same for you, but it is called "questioning" for a reason, after all.

So interesting. For me, identifying as male was never an issue. But now, identifying as demi also seems like a real possibility. Which explains why I never questioned my gender until recently.

I never liked transmedicalism btw, I guess I just skipped completely over that when I stopped believing in the classic alt-right anti-trans talking points. I have listened to so many different voices on gender, and transmedicalism just seems wrong right on it's face. I mean, it sounds a lot like a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

 

On 8/28/2022 at 1:48 AM, SilenceRadio said:

On 8/27/2022 at 9:38 PM, Kroete said:

If I would wake up tomorrow and find myself to be suddenly like a woman, I probably would panic and scream

What do you mean by "woman" here? Is it about bodies, or is that more mental?

Well, it's kind of both. I just cannot identify as being a woman in any way, even if I try. I would freak out if my penis disappeared and I had a vagina all of a sudden. I don't know why that is, just the thought makes me uncomfortable. Probably the explanation for that is "something something neuroscience".

 

Quote

What do you mean by "my brain tells me I am male"?

Well, basically, gender identity comes from the brain, right? I mean I just *feel* like a man, it just feels right. Either that, or demiman. Something something neuroscience. But now I'm definitely going into unknown territory for me and I might say absurd things. Remember, I still need to learn and unlearn.

 

Quote

Being trans or nonbinary is "not about whether the old shoe fits, it’s about whether the new shoe fits better." You don't need a level of suffering or disconnect to reject your assigned gender, and it's common for trans and/or nonbinary people to think about gender later in life. I sure had no problem identifying as cis... until I did, and by the time I did not, I didn't have enough reasons to go back to being cis. You don't even need gender euphoria, you can simply... be whatever gender you want to be. Being fine with being considered one gender doesn't imply being that gender necessarily, though it can for many people.

This is so helpful, thank you. I like the analogy. I am also in the "labels are tools" crowd, but I mostly applied this to sexual/romantic orientation only. Not to gender. But I start to think it makes sense to apply the same logic to gender because why not?

[SilenceRadio]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

Identifying with a demigender feels like a big step. Or maybe it isn't, actually? I don't know.

I mean, even I had a lot of issues with identifying as a nonbinary person who partially identified with my assigned gender, so... it might be a small step for some, but it's already a lot for someone who mostly identified as cis.

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

It's so cool to know that the term "demiboy" came from AVEN itself.

I know right.

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

The weird part is, when I started identifying as asexual, this was like instant. It just instantly made "click" when I realized asexuality described me. There was no phase of questioning at all and this realization came like a shock but I very quickly came to terms with it. But with gender, I seem to be slower. Gender is just so freaking complicated! XD

I wonder why I didn't immediately jump on "demiboy" once I consider it but instead became gender-questioning.

On the other hand, I DID hold bigoted views about gender (I swallowed many of the famous alt-right talking points about transgender, basically, until I finally listened to the ACTUAL science and learned the anti-trans brigade is full of shit) not many years ago, and maybe I still did not fully overcome it and I still need to learn. Could my worries be informed by my past bigotry?

No word/label ever clicked for me, really... or at least, the only thing that ever clicked was something I didn't have, so it's not like I've had much luck on that.

But gender is much more opaque than orientation for some people, so don't worry!

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

When it comes to enby/trans. Well, I personally feel like those technically apply, as they are often seen as umbrella terms. But I struggle with seeing myself as trans. Because I still definitely do identify with being a man, which *is* my assigned gender at birth, the question is more like if I 100% identify with it.

 

It seems like demigenders are neither cis nor trans but more like an "in-between"? Or does the cis/trans distinction need to be binary? As the common definition of cis is that you FULLY identify with your AGAB (which creates a pretty hard cut-off line).

My problem is this: If me being a demiman means I'm trans, it feels like I am denying a part of my "cis identity", my AGAB (boy/man), but I still DO identify with being a man ... kinda. It's confusing. Is it fair to say that the cis/trans distinction is actually just another binary? Or do you think this is offensive (this question goes out to all the proud trans people here)?

 

I have a similar problem with "non-binary". This means you're neither man nor woman. Well, I still am a man or a demiman (still not sure), and if I'm demiman, I still feel connected to the male gender (and thus "The Binary(TM)"). Just not fully.

 

I saw a video short in the Internet explaining demiboy to me and the person explained that demiboy is under the non-binary umbrella which is in turn under the trans umbrella. For some reason, this video made me VERY uncomfortable. 😕

 

I think the only gender umbrella term for "demiman" I see no problem with is "genderqueer" (and "demigender" for obvious reasons). This makes much more sense to think of it as "queering gender" (which is open to interpretation) rather than "not be one of the binary genders" (which feels pretty strict). I think the demiman gender 100% is queering gender.

It's not because a label "technically" applies that you have to use it. Because definitions just show you what people mean by their word use, they're not meant to be prescriptive. Most people, when they say they're trans, are saying that they don't (exclusively and solely) identify with the gender they were assigned. That does not mean every person who doesn't (fully) identify with their assigned gender are trans. "Labels are tools" means that you don't have to use any label that feels ill-fitting. I think that's why you shouldn't worry too much about definitions: think of the way people use these labels instead.

 

Nonbinary can be "neither man or woman" but doesn't have to be. Nonbinary is more commonly interpreted as an umbrella term rather than a gender in itself. You don't have to reject binary genders in order to be nonbinary. There are nonbinary men and nonbinary women. There are people who happen to be both men and women, and/or are genderfluid, or have multiple genders, and consider themselves nonbinary because they're neither a binary man or a binary woman. Some nonbinary genders are linked to the binary, but since they don't "fully" fit it, they are still nonbinary. Some might see "nonbinary" as their primary identity, others might see it as a modifier. Some nonbinary people don't identify as trans, as they see the cis/trans binary as just another binary that doesn't take them into account.

 

You don't have to give up your assigned gender if you identify as trans. Some nonbinary people who are closer to their assigned gender do ID as trans, and some feel like "trans" is much more suited for people that are not their assigned gender (example: a nonbinary woman who was AFAB may prefer not to ID as trans to avoid others assuming that they experience transmisogyny and/or are a nonbinary trans woman). There are multigender who fully identify with their assigned gender, but identify as another gender as well, and consider themselves trans. You'll often see these kind of nonbinary people denounce the "does not identify with one's assigned gender" simple definition of "transgender" because of that.

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

Quote

As I said, gender is something you can only determine for yourself. There isn't a threshold where the most feminine man ever becomes a woman or something and loses his cis card, that's not really how gender works.

OK, this part of your response (SilenceRadio) confuses me a little. I thought gender is the social construct that is ascribed or "forced" to you by society and therefore is not determined by you. Only gender identity is determined by yourself. Now, this statement contradicts this a little. Hmmmm ... Or is it OK to use the word "gender" synonymously with "gender identity"?

Assigned gender is not determined by you. But your gender? Absolutely is.

 

You can use "gender" and "gender identity" pretty interchangeably, and usually it's best to just say gender (since some people talk as if cis people have genders but trans people have "gender identities"). There are some cases when making them synonymous might be an issue though. A multigender person can have multiple genders but simply one gender identity (example: an androgyne who is both a man and a woman might consider themselves as having two genders, yet their gender identity remains singular: it's "androgyne"). And an agender person can say that their gender identity is "agender" and that they don't have a gender.

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

I never liked transmedicalism btw, I guess I just skipped completely over that when I stopped believing in the classic alt-right anti-trans talking points. I have listened to so many different voices on gender, and transmedicalism just seems wrong right on it's face. I mean, it sounds a lot like a No True Scotsman Fallacy.

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

Well, it's kind of both. I just cannot identify as being a woman in any way, even if I try. I would freak out if my penis disappeared and I had a vagina all of a sudden. I don't know why that is, just the thought makes me uncomfortable. Probably the explanation for that is "something something neuroscience".

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

Well, basically, gender identity comes from the brain, right? I mean I just *feel* like a man, it just feels right. Either that, or demiman. Something something neuroscience.

Hmm, even though "having a vagina" or wanting to have one can be part of someone's womanhood, I don't think it has to be, y'know? What parts of womanhood do you disidentify with? What parts of manhood do you identify with? Do you feel like if people all your life hadn't told you you were a guy, you would've been one?

 

I'm not going to deny that there might be neurological processes that might influence someone's experience of gender. But I've once quoted Nathalie on the subject of biological transness and how these processes alone don't determine gender. She's talked about it more in this article, and here are some relevant quotes (since it's already long):

 

Spoiler

This framework of “born this way” justifications for being trans is based in the related concepts of “gender dysphoria”, theories of neurobiological “cause”, and the idea that human beings can have a “male brain” or “female brain” or “androgynous brain”. Not everyone investing themselves in “gender identity as essential, inborn trait” shares precisely the same assumptions or views about these things, and don’t necessarily all sign up for the more extreme binarist, bio-essentialist, sexist ideas about “male brains” and “female brains”. Nonetheless, the idea that there’s some intrinsic part of you, almost always assumed to be neurobiological, that establishes your gender identity is overwhelmingly consistent in the hypothesis, and shows up almost immediately after you get past the basic definition (as subjective “intrinsic, deep-seated sense of self”) and start asking people where that sense of self comes from, and why it’s so intrinsic and deep-seated.

 

[...]

 

I have no problem with the assumption that there are underlying neurobiological factors in sex and sexuality, and that these are related to gendered behaviours and perhaps affect the relationship between an individual and their sexual anatomy. What I have a problem with is how many assumptions, and leaps, are made from this. For instance, seeing neurobiology not as a factor, but as determinant or cause… or as an explanation for the entirety of gendered behaviour and gender variance. Those kinds of leaps seem really really iffy to me, and I don’t at all trust their motives. We also seem to have fallen seriously short of actively questioning them.

 

Gender, as the series of behaviours and modes of presentation we adopt in relationship to our cultural roles and understanding of sex and sexual difference, seems clearly to be at least partly socio-cultural in nature. This is rendered pretty apparent in the degree to which things we used to assume (or often still assume) to be inherent qualities of the sexes are in fact culturally arbitrary, and can dramatically shift from context to context. And study after study emerges telling us that things we saw as inherent, and even came up with elaborate evolutionary theories to explain, are also arbitrary and shift along with shifted context [...]

 

Basically, we assume an inherent “born this way” dysphoria and internalized cultural ideas of what a woman’s body “should” be are distinct because, politically, personally, they HAVE to be. Opening up that question makes us vulnerable to the arguments of transphobes, cissexists and trans-misogynists from every facet of our society, who believe that gender can only be valid if it is inherent, that there must be a concrete essential “maleness” and “femaleness” (they’ll accept that it’s in the brain rather than your underwear as long as you agree that it’s there), that bigotry is only wrong if it targets something innate, and that we assure them that of course we would never willingly choose to so defy their sacred systems of gender and sexuality. And opening up that question means we might have to confront the same existential threat we pose to cis people: our gender, that central aspect of our identity on which so much of our social structure and sense of ourselves hinges, might not be concrete, might not be stable, and might not be as much an intrinsic part of us as it feels. [...]

 

We spent decades fiercely arguing that biology was not destiny only to turn around and just as fiercely convince ourselves that neurobiology was.

“Vagina isn’t what makes someone a woman!”, we argue. “speculative, ill-defined ‘female brains’ do!”

 

[...] studies with magnetic resonance imaging have so far tending to indicate that the brains of transsexual women not yet on HRT tend to NOT resemble the brains of cissexual women, but DO have unique structural properties inconsistent with the brains of both cissexual women and men)… this wouldn’t mark us out as a “third gender”, it merely marks us as sexually distinct—just like every human being already is. Our gender would still be whatever we’re positioning ourselves as within our cultural field of gender, its meanings, and the concepts it makes available to us.

 

After all, we’re already familiar with the phenomena of physiological intersexuality, and we don’t mark intersex people as immediately a different “gender” by consequence. That’s their biology… they’re just, in some way or another, differently sexed… and it would be enormously insensitive to say they don’t “count” within the concepts of “man” or “woman” because of that fact (an intersex person might, however, find that neither of those concepts works for them, and assert a gender outside the binary. But people who are totally normatively sexed may also do so.) The way someone’s biology, or neurobiology, is sexed doesn’t force them into any particular gender, so unless we believe that it does, there’s no reason to insist that our brains are somehow objectively sexed as consistent with our gender out of fear that someone will swoop along and take our gender away if they aren’t.

 

This is very much connected to why it’s problematic to assume, and insist upon, a model of “gender identity” pre-determined by our biology. It being the brain and central nervous system instead of genitals and chromosomes doesn’t make a difference. You’re still postulating a system where gender is determined by something *innate*, where someone can still be “wrong” about their gender, rather than it being something subjectively negotiated between your society and friends and partners and family and yourself, as a human being possessed of agency, and possessed of that right.

 

And, of course, whether it’s “male brain” and “dysphoria” that “makes” you a man, or penises and Y chromosomes, or male socialization and privilege, or the Will of God or “male energy” or a lack of menstrual blood magick, it’s all still essentialism.

 

[...] isn’t the beauty of being trans in exactly that we’re not simply as we were born? That we, relatively speaking, CHOSE…

 

We chose despite the intensity and persistence and depth of these messages, despite the temptation to supplicate ourselves before them presenting our hypothetical justifications and excuses and explanations, all within THEIR terms and frameworks, despite the need to validate our gender as being just as good as theirs despite the fact that there was never even any real reason to see theirs as the standard… that despite ALL that, we chose, we created this, our bodies, our lives, ourselves.

 

We didn’t do it as the result of a reasoned argument of speculative science and hypothetical biology. We did it because it was what we needed, because it was what we needed to DO… fuck what we WERE.

 

It was agency. It was self-determination. It was assertion.

 

I wasn’t born this way. That’s exactly what makes me trans.

 

And I’m proud of being trans.

 

Not everyone agrees with this perception of gender, even I don't fully agree with it. But one of the important messages here, I feel, is that ultimately, you're not bound by your neurology. Some people see gender as something you discover, and others see it as something you... kinda have to build yourself, if that makes sense (perhaps not a good idea to be writing this at 3 AM).

 

On 8/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Kroete said:

I am also in the "labels are tools" crowd, but I mostly applied this to sexual/romantic orientation only. Not to gender. But I start to think it makes sense to apply the same logic to gender because why not?

It absolutely does! It's what I've been doing.

[Kroete]

I've read that demigender means you partially identify with one gender and with another gender.

 

But what if you do identify with a gender, but just not strongly with it, and you do *not* identify with another gender? Is that still demigender or could that be something else? (I mean, is there maybe a different word?)

 

It is now a few days after the demigender idea of mine, but I still don't feel this word "clicks" with me. I don't know why. The idea that I might only be "partially" a man sounds kinda strange.

On the other hand, the idea that I do not *strongly* identify with maleness has remained. I am at least certain I don't like to "lose" the male identity (at least not entirely).

 

This feels like a contradiction. Am I just in denial?

 

But I feel like I'm a little bit gender-indifferent, maybe? Because most of the time, I do not think about my gender, nor did I have any problems. Is gender-indifference a thing? Is this what agender means? But then I'm not fully gender-indifferent either because I would be annoyed if someone called me a woman.

 

Basically, I am a man, technically, I just don't feel that strongly about it. On the other hand, I do strongly feel about *not* being a woman somehow.

 

Or maybe it's just the word itself that is my biggest issue. "demi-" means "half" or "partial" but it always feels like I'm not a "complete" person, or like a rip-off. Strange. It sounds like I'm not a REAL man.

 

Am I overthinking this?

[SilenceRadio]

2 minutes ago, Kroete said:

But what if you do identify with a gender, but just not strongly with it, and you do *not* identify with another gender? Is that still demigender or could that be something else? (I mean, is there maybe a different word?)

It can still fall under "demigender" (I've seen subcategories like "libragender", though you don't have to use them). I've seen multiple definitions for "demigender" anyway. Adapt words as they fit you: if you think demigenders can communicate this idea of "identifying with one gender, but not too strongly", you can use it like that! I've seen "cis-genderless" being used for a not-too-strong-identification-but-no-cis-disidentification-either experiences, though there isn't always a "being another gender would bother me" connotation to it.

 

Come to think of it, this reminds me of "greygender", although "greyboy" has other meanings.

 

18 minutes ago, Kroete said:

This feels like a contradiction. Am I just in denial?

Sometimes, gender appears contradictory, even more so as you question it. I don't think not identifying strongly with manhood while still wanting to be aligned to it is contradictory. For example, I know of an agender woman/agender person who sees herself as woman-aligned, and you've got people who aren't entirely men but aren't non-men either. While that may appear "contradictory", ultimately gender is complex and we're complex individuals, so it makes sense that it gets reflected in the way we identify.

 

27 minutes ago, Kroete said:

But I feel like I'm a little bit gender-indifferent, maybe? Because most of the time, I do not think about my gender, nor did I have any problems. Is gender-indifference a thing? Is this what agender means? But then I'm not fully gender-indifferent either because I would be annoyed if someone called me a woman.

 

Basically, I am a man, technically, I just don't feel that strongly about it. On the other hand, I do strongly feel about *not* being a woman somehow.

What do you mean by being "technically a man"?

 

Do you feel strongly about being seen as genderless, too? Or perhaps neutrally gendered, or in-between genders. You don't have to be a man to feel strongly about not being a woman, after all.

 

"Agender" can mean various things to many people. It might be a strong aversion to being gendered for some, or simply lacking any strong gendered feeling, or feeling neutral. It's diverse, really. If "agender" helps you make sense of your gender indifference/apathy, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

31 minutes ago, Kroete said:

Or maybe it's just the word itself that is my biggest issue. "demi-" means "half" or "partial" but it always feels like I'm not a "complete" person, or like a rip-off. Strange. It sounds like I'm not a REAL man.

Yeah, that's one thing I don't really like about demigenders, unfortunately. I've seen alternatives like "nonbinary man", "agender guy", or "greygender (fe)male".

 

31 minutes ago, Kroete said:

Am I overthinking this?

Even if you were, I don't think it's an issue, unless it becomes harmful somehow.

[AstrophelDragon]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:08 PM, SilenceRadio said:

There are people who happen to be both men and women, and/or are genderfluid, or have multiple genders, and consider themselves nonbinary because they're neither a binary man or a binary woman.

Me

[Kroete]

Again thanks to SilenceRadio for your great replies! It's good food for thought. As for the question whether I feel about being genderless: Not at all, oddly. I briefly considered "agender" but only briefly because I still had that connection to maleness, so I discarded that idea quickly.

 

But something interesting happened. I just recently stumbled upon a new word in the LGBTQIA+ wiki: "cassman".

 

Quote

one identifies as male or is male-aligned but considers their gender identity unimportant

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Cassboy

 

So I am a ... cassman? It's a very obscure term. Yet it fits! This is literally me. Yes, I have a gender, and this gender is "man" but it is really not important to me. I am more a gamer and computer nerd. I don't have time for gender. Yeah, I think this is how I would describe my own stance of gender. On the other hand, I am not COMPLETELY indifferent as I would probably feel very offended if someone said I'm now a woman. Which explains why I don't "click" with nonbinary or agender.

 

And I think it fits much better than "demiman". I think I understand my struggle and confusion with demiman now. I still do identify with maleness. I struggle to identify with other genders, even if I try. And I think this idea, that I only "partially" identify with maleness was not really true after all, it turns out it was more like indifference. And I think this is not really the same as demi-. After a couple of days, I still feel not really happy with identifying as demiman. When I try to "force" myself to tell myself "I am a demiman", something inside me still struggles. So yeah, I guess I should drop the "demiman" idea now. I think the reason I had this idea in the first place is that I confused my indifference with "partially identify as something".

I think I might reject the demiman label. I am still not 100% sure, but it feels to be the correct direction this time.

 

You all were still a great help as I learned a lot of new ways to look at gender. This definitely helped. The more I think about gender, the more I realize how utterly pointless hate based on gender and gender identity is. Is talking and thinking about your gender identity basically just talking about the endless depths of your mind?

 

[SIDENOTE]

I still need to un-learn some of the anti-trans panic and "gender ideology!!!1!!" panic from random talking heads who influenced me a couple of years ago. It was a slow process. I was like "OK, now that I learned some of the basics, transgender is actually completely valid, and the anti-trans talking heads lied to me about basically everything, but enbies clearly go too far!" Months later I was "OH! People actually do mean it very seriously and it's actually a real thing." and then I was like, "OK, enbies are valid, too, but gender-fluidity obviously goes too far, is a sign of delusion, etc. etc. etc." and the process repeated. LOL. It was like, I automatically assumed every new gender identity I did not know before MUST be delusion somehow. Talk about argument from incredulity! 

[SIDENOTE END]

 

But this "cassman" word suddenly raises a new interesting question: Is cassgender neccessarily a transgender identity? I don't think so, because a cassgender person might or might not fully identify with their AGAB. So I think being cassgender and being transgender are two completely different questions, the one does not influence the other.

 

So yeah, that means I am a man, but also a cassman. And I am cisgender. But I am not demigender. Probably.

 

The best of all, thanks to all your posts, I don't feel shame or feel scared for any identity now. No matter if cis, demigender, trans, whatever. You helped me realize its all baseless fear. And I also no longer think I was overthinking this. I now think this little journey also helped me to understand gender in general a little bit better. As I said, I'm still learning.

[AstrophelDragon]

@Kroete, what you have said makes me wonder how many people are actually fully cis in the way I and a lot of other trans/enby-type people probably see them as. Bc like, I've had a couple conversations with cis people that I trust about how they see gender, and I have one friend that says she does definitely have an internal sense of being female, but then other people like my sister don't really care so much. Like, my sister is a girl, but it's just not really something she thinks about. Or like, my mom is kind of the same way (which is why I've been having such difficulty explaining my fluidity to her), because she's always just like, "well, you can still do all these things or have whatever interests, doesn't matter if you're a girl or boy" and I'm like, "I know, that's just not the point." Because to her, gender just kind of is what it is. But to me, gender is like this almost tangible this that I can feel changing inside of me (although I do have some days when it is less present). Anyway. Maybe that's why we have such a hard time talking about gender to cis people sometimes. Because we don't necessarily have the same experiences with it

[Iphis]

8 hours ago, Kroete said:

 

But something interesting happened. I just recently stumbled upon a new word in the LGBTQIA+ wiki: "cassman".

 

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Cassboy

 

So I am a ... cassman? It's a very obscure term. Yet it fits! This is literally me. Yes, I have a gender, and this gender is "man" but it is really not important to me. I am more a gamer and computer nerd. I don't have time for gender. Yeah, I think this is how I would describe my own stance of gender. On the other hand, I am not COMPLETELY indifferent as I would probably feel very offended if someone said I'm now a woman. Which explains why I don't "click" with nonbinary or agender.

 

Hi, I followed your thread with great interest since I struggle a little with my gender identity, too. 

I never thought about demigender before and I think it "click" for me because - differently from what you said - I would not be bothered if people thought I'm a boy (even though I align at most as a girl and I don't feel a male identity), but it's also true that I actually don't care that much about any identities. So I'm curios of this new lebel you found. I didn't find much information about it, can you say me for what "Cass" stand for?

[sirenian]

Very glad to see you stumbled on "casgender."

It was the first thing that popped into my head when I read your first post at the top of this thread, as though you were defining the term based on your experience without even knowing it existed!

[hewhomainsness]

On 9/7/2022 at 3:49 PM, Kroete said:

Is talking and thinking about your gender identity basically just talking about the endless depths of your mind?

yes i have poked a hole in my subconscious and have been desperately trying to sort through everything that came out

 

that said this cassboy thing is helpful

[Kroete]

Hello again, so yeah, I think I am definitely cis, and not demigender or anything else.

 

How I know this? In an online discussion somewhere else, I referred to myself as a "cis man" without even thinking about it, but noticed it like 15 minutes later. If I were truly demigender, I should have noticed earlier. It's almost as if it came to me naturally, like literally all the years before. Also, I tried to think about other gender labels, but it never truly worked. "Demiman" came close, but at the end of the day, "cis man" hits closest. But I still felt something was missing.

 

That missing piece was "cassman". I am a cassman, a man who does not care about his gender very much, but when he cares, it's definitely male (and not female, enby, demiman, etc.).

 

Probably the demigender definition just confused be for a brief time, because it *kinda* sounded right, but then I realized there was still something off (hence the thread). The word "cassman", however, matches perfectly.

 

And no, I have no idea why it is called "cassman". The wiki has sadly no answer. It just says what the word means, which is good enough for me.

 

So I guess I will use the terms "man", "cis man" and "cassman" and in extreme cases "cis cassman" to refer to my gender identity, depending on how much detail I am wishing to give.

But probably just "man" most of the time. But it's nice to know there's a word for "I technically have a gender identity that I don't care very much about".

 

I am very happy that this place exists, in which people can explore their identity without fear of consequence. You all helped me a lot!

 

I think I am also happy with my old and new gender identity labels, none of my labels feel any "wrong" anymore. I am officially no longer gender-questioning.