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Is it really safe to say "All people who want to be a woman are women"?


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Burgundy Ashe

Like, doesn't identity have to be about who you see yourself as? or is identity something mysterious that you discover and was always the true you this whole time, and you were just, what, not being true to yourself? Without knowing?

 

Maybe every DMAB person who wants to be a woman is on the trans spectrum, but they don't have to do a thing about it if it doesn't seem necessary to them. You don't tell people what to do, you give them the option you know about, at let them make the decision if that option is right for them. 

 

When it comes to being homosexual or asexual, no you can't choose what it is. 

 

but when it comes to your gender, you do choose how you present. If someone feels safer or happier staying as their DGAB, all power to them. 

 

IDK I've just seen people say, "if you want to be a woman, then you are one" and I think that's kind of prescriptive, where identity is something that is descriptive. 

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Sarah-Sylvia

Identity is identifying something important about yourself, and putting a name to it ;p.

It's not a choice, but there are choices around it, like transitioning, in example.

 

Whether wanting to be a woman has to do with someone's identity or not is up to them to realize or not.

Even if someone feels it's just wanting to be one, it can mean more. (or not, it's up to them and how they are)

I don't know if anyone actively says the quote you put though.

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Deltalorian
25 minutes ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

IDK I've just seen people say, "if you want to be a woman, then you are one" and I think that's kind of prescriptive, where identity is something that is descriptive. 

That statement feels paradoxical in a way, where it's both true and not true simultaneously. Like, if you feel like a woman and want to live life like a woman and do live like a woman in whatever gender roles you see fit, then you are being a woman, but is it because you want to be a woman, or just because you are a woman? I feel like there could be an interesting philosophical debate around whether being a certain gender or wishing to be a certain gender are both linked to one's identity and happen in a natural cycle of the formation of gender identity, but we'll never get that debate because it will instantly be hijacked by transphobes in an attempt to delegitimise trans people, because humans cannot be trusted to have interesting discussions about the nature of existence without one person trying to deny another's reality.

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Sarah-Sylvia

@DeltalorianAfter a long time of not living your truth (of not being true to who you are), I can say it's easy for it to become a want xD.

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MermaidRomani

It's natural for a lot of people to not realize they're XYZ identity until later in life. For some who felt like they knew their entire life, that's cool. However, everyone who identifies as trans/nonbinary, this absolutely isn't the case. It's natural for your gender identity to fluctuate during periods in your life. For some people it's much more static. For others, it's not. 

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Deltalorian
11 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

@DeltalorianAfter a long time of not living your truth (of not being true to who you are), I can say it's easy for it to become a want xD.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

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Starry Sky

The term "want" can mean a few things here. An AMAB person could want to be a woman because she is a woman. An AMAB person could want to be a woman simply out of curiosity or for whatever reason but still be a man. An AMAB person could want to be a woman because it's closer to how they feel and may define themselves as a woman if they chose or not. Could go the other way around as well. An AFAB person could want to be a man because he actually is one. Or an AFAB person could want to be male out of curiosity. Or even more applicably, for the rights men have, yet still have no desire to actually be a man. Want ≠ Is. A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not always a square. 

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SilenceRadio
1 hour ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

Like, doesn't identity have to be about who you see yourself as? or is identity something mysterious that you discover and was always the true you this whole time, and you were just, what, not being true to yourself? Without knowing?

Different people see it differently. Personally, I'm more of the former: I don't believe in an "inherent truth" about ourselves. Like, sure, there are things that would make us feel much better or would greatly help us, but I don't believe that's necessarily tied to a specific identity that would be intrinsic to us. That seems closer to a born-this-way, essentialist conceptualization of identity, which is not one I like very much for myself since it doesn't fit me very much. Identity is the stories we tell ourselves and they don't have to be "objective" to be their own truth. Only we can know who we are, and all the truth we have is our own perception and desires.

 

2 hours ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

You don't tell people what to do, you give them the option you know about, and let them make the decision if that option is right for them.

Exactly!

 

1 hour ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

When it comes to being homosexual or asexual, no you can't choose what it is.

I will say that some people "choose" it or they see that as more socially constructed, and others don't. You definitely choose the term, and your reality is more or less chosen depending on how you see it and what you've experienced. But I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a significant dimension of identity. I mean, it can be, but part of the reason why this is often insisted upon is because people are expected not to be who they are: that if they can't be "changed", then at least they should be stifled or tolerated. But if we accept that not having, wanting or liking sex is okay, and that having a same-gender partner regardless of whether that person could choose a different-gendered partner or not is okay too, then there's little to no reason to argue that you can't choose it. Most of the time, yes, you can't... but sometimes, people are so caught up in heteronormative nets that the reality that you're not doomed to date men — in the case of lesbians or bi women — and that you can choose not to date them or to take the attraction you experience to them into account can often lead people to realize what works best for them, much more than saying "you're born this way" would.

 

2 hours ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

IDK I've just seen people say, "if you want to be a woman, then you are one" and I think that's kind of prescriptive, where identity is something that is descriptive.

It's not meant to be a prescriptive notion, but some people turn it that way sometimes, which is a bit unfortunate.

 

I'd phrase it more like "if you want to be a woman, you can be one" rather than "you are one". From what I've seen, this sentence is often parroted due to:

  • the idea that you're supposedly meant to know that you were trans since you were a kid. A lot of people who start questioning their gender sometimes wonder if they can even not be cis in the first place because "there never were any signs", because they never suspected that they were trans, or couldn't get it. Shifting "being a woman" not as something that's granted to you during your youth but as something you can pick up, something you can attain as long as you want it, makes it much more accessible to people who figured out they were trans later in life.
  • cisnormativity. Some trans/nonbinary folks initially believed that they couldn't be trans and/or nonbinary, that it wasn't possible or allowed for them. I've seen someone who described thinking about it as a thoughtcrime. So in order to break from that thinking, telling people that merely wanting to be trans is enough on its own makes this a much easier criterion to fit. It makes it accessible, not out of reach. You don't have to be exceptionally different to be trans and/or nonbinary. You can simply be whatever gender you want if you want to.

It's often used with "are" rather than "can" because some people's denial can be rather strong, and there's the illusion that if you tell them they're wrong, they'll believe you. But that's not true (I can elaborate on that if you want, it's just getting late right now).

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RoseGoesToYale

I guess the answer comes down to "what is woman?" And really, what the fuck is it? Is it a human with boobs? No, there are people who have had mastectomies and are still women. Is it a human with a uterus? No, you can have a hysterectomy and still be a woman. Is it a human who gives birth? No, because a lot of people who have not and never will give birth are still women. Is it a human with long hair who wears frilly pink dresses and makeup and jewelry and loves flowery stuff who has PIV sex with humans with penises? No, because I'm pretty sure Ellen DeGeneres exists. Is it a human puddle of estrogen? No, we all have estrogen and testosterone. Is it a human with two X chromosomes? No, there are intersexed women. Is it a vagina? I sincerely hope not.

 

Philosophy has been trying to answer this question for eons, in addition to the feminists, and no one can really land on a concrete definition of what the actual everliving fuck "woman" means.

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Major West
23 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

I guess the answer comes down to "what is woman?" And really, what the fuck is it? Is it a human with boobs? No, there are people who have had mastectomies and are still women. Is it a human with a uterus? No, you can have a hysterectomy and still be a woman. Is it a human who gives birth? No, because a lot of people who have not and never will give birth are still women. Is it a human with long hair who wears frilly pink dresses and makeup and jewelry and loves flowery stuff who has PIV sex with humans with penises? No, because I'm pretty sure Ellen DeGeneres exists. Is it a human puddle of estrogen? No, we all have estrogen and testosterone. Is it a human with two X chromosomes? No, there are intersexed women. Is it a vagina? I sincerely hope not.

 

Philosophy has been trying to answer this question for eons, in addition to the feminists, and no one can really land on a concrete definition of what the actual everliving fuck "woman" means.

This question always sort of irks me when people act like it's impossible to answer. Female physiology is determined by a number of factors but suffice to say if a female's skeleton is found is 2000 years from now they can tell she was a female by aspects of her bones (ie her pelvis) and DNA testing if they have that tech, but DNA testing is generally not actually necessary to determine biological sex if enough of the skeleton is present. The skeleton may have no hair, no clothes, no identifying factors at all, but is still 'female' based on factors present in aspects of the anatomy.

 

Asking 'what is a woman' and conflating that with cervix or breasts etc and using that to determine that it's impossible to define a woman is a bit of a strawman, because these days the words 'man' and 'woman' are used to identify how someone personally feels about their gender. Biological sex will still be there no matter what (again, a skeleton can be determined as male or female based on the shape of certain bones) but 'woman' and 'man' have become concepts rather than absolutes. A woman is now, literally ''whatever you want a woman to be''

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RoseGoesToYale
3 minutes ago, Major West said:

This question always sort of irks me when people act like it's impossible to answer. Female physiology is determined by a number of factors but suffice to say if a female's skeleton is found is 2000 years from now they can tell she was a female by aspects of her bones (ie her pelvis) and DNA testing if they have that tech, but DNA testing is generally not actually necessary to determine biological sex if enough of the skeleton is present. The skeleton may have no hair, no clothes, no identifying factors at all, but is still 'female' based on factors present in aspects of the anatomy.

We know what "female" is. There's an accepted scientific definition for "female". But I asked what is "woman"? What makes "womanhood" different from any other "-hood"? Am I a woman because I have female reproductive organs or am I a woman in spite of them?

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Sarah-Sylvia

Female and Male are used for gender identities too, not just sex traits.

 

The brain is biological too, and there's scientific research along that gender identity tends to align with certain developments in the brain, so it's not just a concept, it's something that's part of humanity and the persons themselves.

 

That doesn't mean it's all about the brain, and there might be plenty where it wouldn't show, who knows, but just to say gender exists, and it's not just between the legs, and it's not just psychological. And all that said, personally it's also spiritual, but I don't have to talk on that since I can't really prove that one.

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DarkStormyKnight

In contexts where I've seen that phrase used it's more of "if you feel like you want to be a woman, then you have permission to use the trans label" or "then you might be trans" rather than forcing them into this box. I get what you're saying with that phrase though, since it does need to have that extra step of the person deciding for themselves if they are trans or not, or even what term to use.

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18 hours ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

but when it comes to your gender, you do choose how you present.

I don't think presentation and gender are inherently connected. So yes, you do choose how you present, but no, you don't choose your gender 

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FSENonServiam

.

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Burgundy Ashe
15 hours ago, FailsafeEngineer said:

Gender is mental state,

what does this mean? my mood is a mental state. It's really the only mental state I have.... unless I am misunderstanding what you mean? My gender is not a state of my mental configuration - my gender is based off of what I expect to see - my gender in other words is an expectation of what reality is - this isn't a state of mind. 

 

 

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On 7/27/2022 at 1:48 PM, Burgundy Ashe said:

IDK I've just seen people say, "if you want to be a woman, then you are one" and I think that's kind of prescriptive, where identity is something that is descriptive. 

The fact that you've seen people say that doesn't mean it makes any particular sense, nor should it be argued from any particular standpoint.  People say all sorts of silly things.

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FSENonServiam
7 hours ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

My gender is not a state of my mental configuration 

but it is. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than it being a state of your mind that is determined before you are born. I mean why is that so controversial? Me being  fat was apparently determined before I was born.  

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Burgundy Ashe
4 hours ago, FailsafeEngineer said:

but it is. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than it being a state of your mind that is determined before you are born. I mean why is that so controversial? Me being  fat was apparently determined before I was born.  

oh so there's a comprehensive study somewhere that doesn't just track statistical consistecies, it actual proves, that every single person in the world has their gender determined in the womb? interesting. 

 

 

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FSENonServiam
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ThatBadCat
5 hours ago, FailsafeEngineer said:

Me being  fat was apparently determined before I was born.  

I don't think that really works as a comparable example for your argument. Even if someone has every genetic and epigenetic predisposition towards being fat, if they live in an environment where they cannot consume excess calories, they will not be fat. Would you say that's the same for gender?

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Sarah-Sylvia

I think 'mental state' is not the right word because usually that's used to mean more temporarily how someone feels and views thing, at a certain time. So that can be like moods, or also mental views, all things that can change, while something corer like gender identity someone could still say it's part of the mind or brain (or soul), but not sure what's a good word to mean something more static. Not to say we don't change, we can. But some things are more core to us than others.

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FSENonServiam
On 7/30/2022 at 12:19 PM, ThatBadCat said:

?

 

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FSENonServiam
2 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I think 'mental state' is not the right word because usually that's used to mean more temporarily how someone feels and views thing, at a certain time. So that can be like moods, or also mental views, all things that can change, while something corer like gender identity someone could still say it's part of the mind or brain (or soul), but not sure what's a good word to mean something more static. Not to say we don't change, we can. But some things are more core to us than others.

That was the phrase I heard used most by the people I saw, and I assumed that you could have a mental state that lasts for the entirety of your life, like I'm always going to have as a mental state the state "male body, male mind" or so it seems. I.don't know. 

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Sarah-Sylvia
6 minutes ago, FailsafeEngineer said:

That was the phrase I heard used most by the people I saw, and I assumed that you could have a mental state that lasts for the entirety of your life, like I'm always going to have as a mental state the state "male body, male mind" or so it seems. I.don't know. 

I've never heard it used like that. Always seen it to mean something temporary.

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FSENonServiam
On 7/30/2022 at 12:39 PM, Sarah-Sylvia said:

 

. 😂😂😂

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ThatBadCat
44 minutes ago, FailsafeEngineer said:

The point is that there are things that are genetically determined. And I don't understand why the whole trans thing is biologically natural is controversial. I didn't say it was a mental health disorder, and I would argue that anyone who says that is wrong. I didn't say it was a defect or anything like that. All I wanted to do was show that its a phenomenon that happens throughout nature and shouldn't be shunned or disparaged but accepted just like we accept that there seemed to be a pair of gay penguin or worms that are both sexes. Its just a natural thing and should be celebrated as part of the wide spectrum of natural occurrences. 

I don't think something being natural means it's good or should be celebrated. Psychopathy is natural, violence is natural, suspicion of people who are different from what you are used to is natural, but I don't think they should be celebrated as part of the 'wide spectrum of natural occurrences'. Whether gender is 'natural' and pre-determined or an influenceable social construct is irrelevant to whether we should respect and value the full diversity of human experience of gender.

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FSENonServiam
On 7/30/2022 at 1:11 PM, ThatBadCat said:

 

 

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Burgundy Ashe
3 hours ago, FSENonServiam said:

. Its where the science stands at the moment.

you can observe a million grey ducks but this doesn't mean a black duck doesn't exist. 

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Burgundy Ashe
3 hours ago, FSENonServiam said:

The point is that there are things that are genetically determined.

this is taking a theory and stating it as fact.

 

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