Aces, would you consent to sex ?

[RileyA]

3 hours ago, Guest Queerdo said:

Um, you do realize that "gold-star" definitions are not a statistical claim about lesbians as a population, but an explicitly political stance taken to justify intra-community prejudice against multiple groups of women, including trans people (and partners), lesbians with children, and people with bi relationship histories? 

 

My job as a queer activist isn't to assume anything from a person needing services; my job is to create a safe space for people to build their own LGBTQIA identity in the context of their own messy lives. And I say that at the head of every meeting, because I've gotten enough not-queer-enough/not-trans-enough garbage to pass it on to the people who show up for their first meeting, too terrified to even ask questions or introduce themselves. 

 

Not that being ace or lesbian can be reduced to a yes/no "would you consent to sex?"

 

PS: A very common expressed anxiety from newcomers is, "I don't know if I can talk about it here after reading all of the definition debates online." 

 

Nobody mentioned gold stars. You're reaching. The fact that a lesbian is very unlikely to be interested in dating men says nothing about their past. Gold stars are for people who have never had heterosexual sex. Stop reaching. It's embarrassing for you.

 

The reality remains that on average, about 40-50% of ace people aren't sure they'll never consent to sex again. So you can't use ace as a strong indicator of "no sex" like you can assume a lesbian isn't going to date a man. 

 

Queer spaces are fine with people who have same gender attraction or who aren't cis. What they get antsy about are cis people who feel words like "hetero" are appropriate labels for them. So again, stop reaching. 

 

I'll repeat, ace is not a term where you can have any dependence that the person means they'll never have sex again. You can be pretty sure that a gay man isn't into cis women. On the other hand, us sexual people are often approached by people on the ace spectrum seeking dates that lead to sex. Never met someone on a dating site who both identifies as ace and makes it clear sex isn't an option. Never ever. Have met PLENTY of lesbians and gay men who reiterate they're not into men or women though. 

 

That's the working reality of those labels.

 

 

[iff]

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[everywhere and nowhere]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:29 AM, RileyA said:

The reality remains that on average, about 40-50% of ace people aren't sure they'll never consent to sex again.

Don't assume that most asexuals have already had sex and are willing or unwilling to do it again. It was not even asked about here, and at least according to some other data (the Ace Community Census), most self-identified asexuals haven't had sex.

As I already mentioned: I'm one of those who are sure that they wouldn't consent to sex and I have never had sex before.

[estherann]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:29 AM, RileyA said:

 

The reality remains that on average, about 40-50% of ace people aren't sure they'll never consent to sex again. So you can't use ace as a strong indicator of "no sex" like you can assume a lesbian isn't going to date a man. 

 

I'll repeat, ace is not a term where you can have any dependence that the person means they'll never have sex again. You can be pretty sure that a gay man isn't into cis women. On the other hand, us sexual people are often approached by people on the ace spectrum seeking dates that lead to sex. Never met someone on a dating site who both identifies as ace and makes it clear sex isn't an option. Never ever. Have met PLENTY of lesbians and gay men who reiterate they're not into men or women though. 

 

That's the working reality of those labels.

 

 

What label can I use that communicates I'm not willing to have sex? That's the job that I want the ace label to do for me. I find it frustrating that people expect me to do it anyway.

 

I've had relationships with allos that have led to sex, despite me explaining my lack of interest beforehand. I don't think for a minute that's a good thing, or necessarily indicative of what ace people want, but rather a sign of the tremendous pressure allos put on us to go against our own identity to serve them.

[RileyA]

3 hours ago, estherann said:

What label can I use that communicates I'm not willing to have sex? That's the job that I want the ace label to do for me. I find it frustrating that people expect me to do it anyway.

 

I've had relationships with allos that have led to sex, despite me explaining my lack of interest beforehand. I don't think for a minute that's a good thing, or necessarily indicative of what ace people want, but rather a sign of the tremendous pressure allos put on us to go against our own identity to serve them.

 

Well, if it were me, I'd want "asexual" to mean "I'll never consent to sex because I don't experience sexual attraction and/or desire". But that takes us back to that CIM vs essentialist debate. 

 

I think expanding one's idea of what it means to be sexual to include people who really don't want much sex at all is more logical than expanding asexual to mean "maybe sex" or even "sex sometimes". 

 

But that's something ace people need to talk to each other about and try and come to some consensus either as one big community or within smaller ace communities.

 

That can include gatekeeping terminology in that space. Literally, if, by your own words you feel like X, then term Y is inappropriate for you. However, term Z seems to encompass what you describe your feelings to be. That's how some spaces operate in order to have some form of uniformity and promote effective communication.

[RileyA]

5 hours ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

Don't assume that most asexuals have already had sex and are willing or unwilling to do it again. It was not even asked about here, and at least according to some other data (the Ace Community Census), most self-identified asexuals haven't had sex.

As I already mentioned: I'm one of those who are sure that they wouldn't consent to sex and I have never had sex before.

 

There was a poll. Only around half of people said they'll definitely never do it again. That doesn't mean they all will, but it means at this point about 40-50% are undecided. I think that influences some attitudes towards how important it is for "asexual" to mean "never want sex again". If you're unsure if you'll either desire sex or enthusiastically compromise for the right relationship, then it is understandable why you'd not want to make definitive statements that might be a deal-breaker for others and reduce your potential partner pool. 

[The French Unicorn]

1 hour ago, RileyA said:

Only around half of people said they'll definitely never do it again.

Why ignoring the point made by @everywhere and nowhereon the word "again" ?

The word asexual will never mean "never have sex again" because it would mean that asexuals need to have sex before to identify this way, which is not the case. I've never seen anyone using this in a definition.

And doing so would mean that most of the peopl using the label can't use it anymore, considering that according to the survey of 2019, 75% of asexuals people never had sex. And even if the number was less, it doesn't change that we don't need to have sex before to know we don'tt want to.

 

So I'm curious : why did you chose to ignore the virgin asexuals in your definition ?

[RileyA]

1 hour ago, Frenchace said:

Why ignoring the point made by @everywhere and nowhereon the word "again" ?

The word asexual will never mean "never have sex again" because it would mean that asexuals need to have sex before to identify this way, which is not the case. I've never seen anyone using this in a definition.

And doing so would mean that most of the peopl using the label can't use it anymore, considering that according to the survey of 2019, 75% of asexuals people never had sex. And even if the number was less, it doesn't change that we don't need to have sex before to know we don'tt want to.

 

So I'm curious : why did you chose to ignore the virgin asexuals in your definition ?

 

It's not about ignoring them, it's just sloppy language. Either way, it's about the future and around half said they'd never consent to sex. Look how the poll is titled. It says "would you consent to sex?". It doesn't ask anything about whether you've consented before. Purposely, I thought. Am I wrong? 

 

The percentage of virgins is irrelevant to what I thought the poll was about.

 

 

[RileyA]

So you can change my sloppy "never want sex again" to "never want sex whether I've had it before or not", and the point is still the same. 

[estherann]

16 minutes ago, RileyA said:

So you can change my sloppy "never want sex again" to "never want sex whether I've had it before or not", and the point is still the same. 

The poll doesn't ask anything about whether people want sex. It asks about willingness to consent. I suspect many people can imagine a situation in which they might consent to all kinds of things they don't want if the consequences of not doing so were severe enough or the benefits great enough.

[RileyA]

1 minute ago, estherann said:

if the consequences of not doing so were severe enough

 

That's not consent.

 

1 minute ago, estherann said:

or the benefits great enough.

On another note, that's not consent I'd accept.

 

1 minute ago, estherann said:

The poll doesn't ask anything about whether people want sex.

True. And in the original discussion prior to the poll, I did say the reasons will vary. IMO, at one end, you have the "to escape severe consequences" or the "gunpoint" scenario which I say is not consent. 

 

Then you have other reasons someone might consent such as "benefits great enough", which to me, is consent. I'm happy to both acknowledge that it's "true consent" and also that I'm not prepared to accept it and act on it.

 

But that's neither here nor there, except at the extreme non-consent end. It's about whether people are definitive that they'll never give consent for sex or not. Even if it is to compromise for a wanted relationship. That whole discussion about whether people should or shouldn't make that compromise is, in my view, a long and separate one.

[The French Unicorn]

49 minutes ago, RileyA said:

It says "would you consent to sex?". It doesn't ask anything about whether you've consented before. Purposely, I thought. Am I wrong? 

It was because I wanted to know about the future, not the past. That's why I was confused that you put the notion of what happened before in your responses. 

[everywhere and nowhere]

28 minutes ago, RileyA said:

That's not consent.

Seriously: 👏

[Guest]

No.

[A User]

It would depend on how convincing the other person is

Maybe, maybe not

[StratoChief]

Been there, done that, don't want or need to do it again.

[Guest]

No. It just leads to more damage. Any time I'd cave and react the way the guy wanted me to react to his attempts to initiate sex, it was done not because I wanted to, but in order to prevent my partner from dumping me for someone else, masturbating to other women, becoming angry about my lack of desire and/or jealous of my male friends, complaining about blue balls, etc.. sex is painful (I'm very tight, have lubrication issues, and have heart and joint disabilities), I've been traumatized by sexual abuse multiple times, I'm disgusted by semen and genitals (especially my own privates), most boyfriends dump me in just a couple weeks anyway and then I'm stuck needing yet another STD test because I had yet another sex partner...just no.

[Calliers]

Yes. But not right now.

[J. van Deijck]

On 7/23/2022 at 5:56 PM, StratoChief said:

Been there, done that, don't want or need to do it again.

Same here. There are more interesting things in life.

[AroAce Wolf]

No thank you.

[aexo]

Maybe if I felt like.... pressured into it, or like. Really bad for someone. Which I know is terrible. I wouldn't personally want it in any scenario, but I've been pressured into it several times before and don't know if I'm strong enough to stand up for myself all the time. Thankfully one of my partners has another partner that can meet their sexual needs. It's a win-win for me, ahaha...

[Kimi_gata]

On 7/13/2022 at 11:53 PM, Ceebs said:

some of us can't resist polls and JUST NEED TO CLICK SOMETHING

You would not believe how many times in the past month alone I just needed to click something! I took a whole lot of random online quizzes haha.

[iff]

@The French Unicorn

 

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iff, Census Forum Moderator