Marvel or DC? For TV shows, movies, games and comics?

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Calliers said:

Starting another topic like this since the last one was in 2010 and has been archived. Which one are you? Also the landscape on Marvel vs. DC has changed big time over time. A Marvel or DC fan? Or both?

 

I'm a Marvel and DC fan, I love movies from both sides, with a preference for Marvel movies and DC shows, DC shows because they tend to run longer, and it isn't like I don't like Marvel TV shows, I just don't like that they are usually over in like 12 or 13 episodes then you have to wait for the new season. Although I do like that Marvel does put out way more movies. 

 

As for comics, I don't read comics.... so yeah.

It's hard to say because Marvel used to be amazing!! It seems to have really gone down-hill after the Disney take-over :c I am cautiously looking forward to Thor Love and Thunder and Guardians of the Galaxy 3 though. I love the Thor movies, the Avengers movies, and both Guardians movies. I love Marel's Loki character as a fan of the old myths BUT I HATED THE LOKI TV SERIES. Even Mr Hiddleston could not entice me to finish it, haha

 

I will say the DC movie Suicide Squad (directed by James Gunn, who directed the GotG movies) was AMAZING, probably one of my favourite films. I haven't had a chance to watch Peacemaker TV series yet but mum said it was amazing, and apparently the new Batman is really good too. 

[Guest]

I hadn't realized they released a new Love and Thunder trailer a couple of days ago - this actually looks really cool! :D

 

 

 

YOU FLICKED TOO HARD DAMMIT!

 

and it has Christian Bale in, the old Batman

[WanderingPurpleDragon]

1 hour ago, Calliers said:

One thing though, I think what the writers don't understand is that we want a strong man and a strong woman not a strong man and a strong woman without a pee pee. If ya get me. Basically they think that if they make super hero women like super hero men minus the member then they have made a strong woman. This is actually wrong. The qualities that make a woman a woman, should be left intact. Sure, give her laser vision, super strength, invisibility, what have you, but don't just super impose a man onto her, make her still be feminine, make her gentle, warm, intuitive, etc. I think this would be accepted more readily than say a female super hero who tries to be masculine. For example, look at Sarah Connor, bad ass mom, but still a woman. I don't think many would disagree she was tough, but she was still a woman for crying out loud.

 

Another point I'd like to raise is that in the interim while you were away I thought about it and figured out that basically I get why people were so mad about Superman turning gay. Some people are inclined to believe that being gay or anything on the spectrum is right, and they are entitled to their own beliefs, whether it be for religious reasons, or that they are just straight up homophobes but still these people, mostly allo people, some of them grew up with Superman as their idol, as their role model even, imagine how their lives were flipped upside down when the comic made him gay? That would be like someone forcing sex onto an ace. Totally wrong, well not literally - but it's along the same vein even though the example itself is a bit extreme.

 

So I mean instead of making Superman gay, what they could do is preserve what that hero represents for hundreds of millions around the world, while simultaneously embracing the LGBTQ+ community and creating a new hero that was just as powerful as Superman, maybe Superman's brother, or cousin, heck even his uncle, and say he was gay. That way we can have our cake and eat it too. Now I know this is still rather controversial because in being part of the spectrum you're allowed to change and morph as you see fit and change your title and sexuality as you like, but I mean, this is one way I think that we could make both camps happy, it isn't a perfect solution but it is a solution, one that would ruffle or rather would have ruffled way less feathers in it's implementation.

That makes sense. Especially since women have different experiences from men that would inform their decisions so that wouldn't always be the best way to write a female superhero. Though not all women are the same, so I wasn't thinking too harshly on that.

 

And that also makes sense. I remember seeing people talk about how they wanted DC to create new characters that represented different groups.

[Calliers]

@WanderingPurpleDragonAlso people want to see themselves in super hero characters. They want stories that make them feel like - if my hero can do all of that, then maybe I can aspire to do it, or just a small piece of it too. They want to be inspired by their heroes. If they start to change traditional heroes into something that is alien to what most of the fans that loved that hero from the beginning is, then they risk losing their audience and leaving them out in the cold as the audience won't be able to relate to the super heroes anymore. This is another reason why they shouldn't change the basic story telling formular that has been working for eons except when making newer characters.... good guy or girl beats bad guy or girl. End of story. Good guy or girl gets girl or boy in the end. That is what most people want to see for most of their super heroes.

[Dagomir]

I don't follow either, but as a teenager I had a nice collection of "The Amazing Spider-Man" comicbook issues (with dozens of issues spanning, I think, the better part of a decade and including some that I re-bought from classmates) so I vote for Marvel out of sentiment. 

[Calliers]

1 hour ago, Piotrek said:

I don't follow either, but as a teenager I had a nice collection of "The Amazing Spider-Man" comicbook issues (with dozens of issues spanning, I think, the better part of a decade and including some that I re-bought from classmates) so I vote for Marvel out of sentiment. 

As a kid I never did collect comics... I had a cousin who had piles of comics in his room, he was super into comics. Strangely enough me and him are born 10 days apart (he is older) and as far as I can remember he read and collected both Marvel and DC comics.

[WanderingPurpleDragon]

4 hours ago, Calliers said:

@WanderingPurpleDragonAlso people want to see themselves in super hero characters. They want stories that make them feel like - if my hero can do all of that, then maybe I can aspire to do it, or just a small piece of it too. They want to be inspired by their heroes. If they start to change traditional heroes into something that is alien to what most of the fans that loved that hero from the beginning is, then they risk losing their audience and leaving them out in the cold as the audience won't be able to relate to the super heroes anymore. This is another reason why they shouldn't change the basic story telling formular that has been working for eons except when making newer characters.... good guy or girl beats bad guy or girl. End of story. Good guy or girl gets girl or boy in the end. That is what most people want to see for most of their super heroes.

That does make sense too. Though, I do think that, since Marvel and DC often kill and reanimate their characters, changes wouldn't be that weird. Bottom line is, there should definitely be heroes that everyone can see themselves in (well, everyone who doesn't participate in hating other groups anyway).

[Calliers]

2 hours ago, WanderingPurpleDragon said:

That does make sense too. Though, I do think that, since Marvel and DC often kill and reanimate their characters, changes wouldn't be that weird. Bottom line is, there should definitely be heroes that everyone can see themselves in (well, everyone who doesn't participate in hating other groups anyway).

The following contains DC spoilers so I will put it within spoiler tags:

 

 

You are totally right. Take the Injustice protocol in the DC universe for example..... we can see a superhero like The Flash or Superman becoming evil and the other heroes having to get together to take them down, for those that have played the Injustice games and who played the stories in these games they would know what this is, as well as those people who are up to date with the latest The Flash episodes but I mean, whenever even that happens people get unhappy because who wants to see their hero turn into the villain? But the truth of the matter is variety is the spice of life, the same thing would happen if they allowed the stories to stagnate and remain the same, they always have to keep switching things up in order to keep things fresh. I think they just shouldn't go from 0-100 real quick, and should limit how much they adjust things, if they did it more gradually and more seldom then less people would be angry and they would allow new generations to grow up with slightly different comics and still keep their integrity....

A good analogy is the frog in the pot which is boiled slowly by turning up the temperature 1 degree at a time gradually rather than turning up the heat too quickly. If you turn the heat up too quickly, the frog will realize that it is being boiled alive and jump out, but bring the temperature up a lot more slowly and by the time the frog knows what is going on it is already too late. It's muscles have already been damaged to the point that they will not work.

 

[WanderingPurpleDragon]

3 hours ago, Calliers said:

The following contains DC spoilers so I will put it within spoiler tags:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

You are totally right. Take the Injustice protocol in the DC universe for example..... we can see a superhero like The Flash or Superman becoming evil and the other heroes having to get together to take them down, for those that have played the Injustice games and who played the stories in these games they would know what this is, as well as those people who are up to date with the latest The Flash episodes but I mean, whenever even that happens people get unhappy because who wants to see their hero turn into the villain? But the truth of the matter is variety is the spice of life, the same thing would happen if they allowed the stories to stagnate and remain the same, they always have to keep switching things up in order to keep things fresh. I think they just shouldn't go from 0-100 real quick, and should limit how much they adjust things, if they did it more gradually and more seldom then less people would be angry and they would allow new generations to grow up with slightly different comics and still keep their integrity....

A good analogy is the frog in the pot which is boiled slowly by turning up the temperature 1 degree at a time gradually rather than turning up the heat too quickly. If you turn the heat up too quickly, the frog will realize that it is being boiled alive and jump out, but bring the temperature up a lot more slowly and by the time the frog knows what is going on it is already too late. It's muscles have already been damaged to the point that they will not work.

 

That makes sense. I guess I personally have less of a problem with it because I didn't grow up watching a lot of these characters and, instead, became more familiar when I got older.

 

Side note: The frog analogy is great at explaining human psychology in various situations. But it always makes me feel sad thinking about the frog.

[Calliers]

31 minutes ago, WanderingPurpleDragon said:

That makes sense. I guess I personally have less of a problem with it because I didn't grow up watching a lot of these characters and, instead, became more familiar when I got older.

 

Side note: The frog analogy is great at explaining human psychology in various situations. But it always makes me feel sad thinking about the frog.

Yeah, poor frog.

 

My friend that I've been discussing this with is 39, he is almost 4 years older than me, and he basically ended his argument with we've gone from this:

 

 

To this:

 

 

In the space of 20 years....

 

I can understand where he is coming from, he himself is very religious and also an allo, and he doesn't believe that being gay is correct, although he is not a homophobe, so basically he feels like if his favorite super heroes sexuality is going to be messed with, he would rather not take part. He really used to like Superman, but now that Superman is gay I feel like he feels like DC betrayed him and did him wrong.

 

They say if someone doesn't care about something they won't talk about it, but if they constantly complain about it from time to time, it shows it is what is on their mind and they in fact do care. I have said many times to him, if you don't like where Marvel and DC is going then simply boycott them. But yet he still complains. I personally think that it really irks him what is happening over at DC and Marvel HQ and he either is gonna go write another somebody done somebody wrong song or he'll eventually come to terms with it. Because as far as I can see, with the direction in which Marvel and DC are heading, it's full steam ahead.

[Epitaph]

22 hours ago, Major West said:

It's hard to say because Marvel used to be amazing!! It seems to have really gone down-hill after the Disney take-over :c I am cautiously looking forward to Thor Love and Thunder and Guardians of the Galaxy 3 though. I love the Thor movies, the Avengers movies, and both Guardians movies. I love Marel's Loki character as a fan of the old myths BUT I HATED THE LOKI TV SERIES. Even Mr Hiddleston could not entice me to finish it, haha

 

I will say the DC movie Suicide Squad (directed by James Gunn, who directed the GotG movies) was AMAZING, probably one of my favourite films. I haven't had a chance to watch Peacemaker TV series yet but mum said it was amazing, and apparently the new Batman is really good too. 

 

I dunno if my memory's crap or not. Don't remember that you had a hankering for the comic films Ficto.

[Epitaph]

2 hours ago, Calliers said:

Yeah, poor frog.

 

My friend that I've been discussing this with is 39, he is almost 4 years older than me, and he basically ended his argument with we've gone from this:

 

 

To this:

 

 

In the space of 20 years....

 

I can understand where he is coming from, he himself is very religious and also an allo, and he doesn't believe that being gay is correct, although he is not a homophobe, so basically he feels like if his favorite super heroes sexuality is going to be messed with, he would rather not take part. He really used to like Superman, but now that Superman is gay I feel like he feels like DC betrayed him and did him wrong.

 

They say if someone doesn't care about something they won't talk about it, but if they constantly complain about it from time to time, it shows it is what is on their mind and they in fact do care. I have said many times to him, if you don't like where Marvel and DC is going then simply boycott them. But yet he still complains. I personally think that it really irks him what is happening over at DC and Marvel HQ and he either is gonna go write another somebody done somebody wrong song or he'll eventually come to terms with it. Because as far as I can see, with the direction in which Marvel and DC are heading, it's full steam ahead.

 

Funny enough, I've kept tabs on some of the slap fights going on down in the comic and story world. I think the hard part to it all is that I can see both points have a certain validity to them.

 

Like, let's take Batman for instance. You don't have to be a super in depth fan of Batman to know that a core defining trait to him is that no matter what, he doesn't kill. The OG kinda core that represents him is this rule.

 

But then it expands a bit, because sometimes, we get stories where Batman does kill. Those stories tend to center on what happens if Batman breaks his rule. While some other stories explore alternate versions of Batman. But that's the thing. Those stories center on "alternate universe" characters. Both Marvel and DC have become so big over time that they had to incorporate alternate realities in order to keep telling stories without  everybody going, "Wait what, where's the continuity?"

 

So let's talk about gay Superman. I didn't know there was a slap fight going on. I didn't know gay superman was a thing. But I'm going to take a crack at it now. Here's a loose bet. OG Superman sort of has this general image in most comic fan's minds. Hell, he's actually a pretty huge worldly symbol of mythic porportions. OG Supes was never openly portrayed as gay to my knowledge.

 

So here's my bet as to why some people are upset. The comic has two options. Either say, "This a story about alternate universe Superman," or it's a retcon that says "Na, Supes was gay the whole time."

 

I'm leaning towards option 2. And if you know anything about fandoms of any kind, retcons piss people off, especially when there's this established general mental image of a character. It actually has to do with psychology, which in itself is fascinating. When the mind associates a face, an identity, a general set of rules and so on, it gets major cranky when this image is broken.

 

Like take Peter Parker and Spiderman. I'm pretty sure when those words come to mind, that's your original picture of Spider Man. Well, some time ago, the comics tried to retcon this and say that Miles Morales was the OG Spiderman. That Peter Parker was just an alternate universe spiderman. And fuck me did that ever piss a lot of spidey fans off.

 

So sitting here and watching this whole thing while not being a diehard fan, but interested, it generally leaves me with a few questions. Such as, A) Why don't fans treat stuff more as alternate universe spin offs? and B) Why don't writers stop trying to retcon established characters and stick to the alternate universe "what if" scenario?

 

That's actually how I treat movie-book adaptations. Since I know a movie can never cram as much as the OG books, I always view the movie as just another branch off universe. Marvel was actually really smart about this when they expanded into more movies. They eventually gave the marvel cinematic universe a number within all the other marvel universes, which is smooth, because it probably helped tone down the angry fans that would complain that Ultron and Thanos didn't utterly mop the floor with everybody because their comic counterparts have fucking insane power scaling.

 

Even though some people did complain that Ultron was nowhere near his comic book counterparts and that Thanos was heavily toned down(although he still technically mopped the floor big time). But I guess you can't please everybody.

 

 

[Calliers]

9 hours ago, E said:

 

Funny enough, I've kept tabs on some of the slap fights going on down in the comic and story world. I think the hard part to it all is that I can see both points have a certain validity to them.

 

Like, let's take Batman for instance. You don't have to be a super in depth fan of Batman to know that a core defining trait to him is that no matter what, he doesn't kill. The OG kinda core that represents him is this rule.

 

But then it expands a bit, because sometimes, we get stories where Batman does kill. Those stories tend to center on what happens if Batman breaks his rule. While some other stories explore alternate versions of Batman. But that's the thing. Those stories center on "alternate universe" characters. Both Marvel and DC have become so big over time that they had to incorporate alternate realities in order to keep telling stories without  everybody going, "Wait what, where's the continuity?"

 

So let's talk about gay Superman. I didn't know there was a slap fight going on. I didn't know gay superman was a thing. But I'm going to take a crack at it now. Here's a loose bet. OG Superman sort of has this general image in most comic fan's minds. Hell, he's actually a pretty huge worldly symbol of mythic porportions. OG Supes was never openly portrayed as gay to my knowledge.

 

So here's my bet as to why some people are upset. The comic has two options. Either say, "This a story about alternate universe Superman," or it's a retcon that says "Na, Supes was gay the whole time."

 

I'm leaning towards option 2. And if you know anything about fandoms of any kind, retcons piss people off, especially when there's this established general mental image of a character. It actually has to do with psychology, which in itself is fascinating. When the mind associates a face, an identity, a general set of rules and so on, it gets major cranky when this image is broken.

 

Like take Peter Parker and Spiderman. I'm pretty sure when those words come to mind, that's your original picture of Spider Man. Well, some time ago, the comics tried to retcon this and say that Miles Morales was the OG Spiderman. That Peter Parker was just an alternate universe spiderman. And fuck me did that ever piss a lot of spidey fans off.

 

So sitting here and watching this whole thing while not being a diehard fan, but interested, it generally leaves me with a few questions. Such as, A) Why don't fans treat stuff more as alternate universe spin offs? and B) Why don't writers stop trying to retcon established characters and stick to the alternate universe "what if" scenario?

 

That's actually how I treat movie-book adaptations. Since I know a movie can never cram as much as the OG books, I always view the movie as just another branch off universe. Marvel was actually really smart about this when they expanded into more movies. They eventually gave the marvel cinematic universe a number within all the other marvel universes, which is smooth, because it probably helped tone down the angry fans that would complain that Ultron and Thanos didn't utterly mop the floor with everybody because their comic counterparts have fucking insane power scaling.

 

Even though some people did complain that Ultron was nowhere near his comic book counterparts and that Thanos was heavily toned down(although he still technically mopped the floor big time). But I guess you can't please everybody.

 

 

Was wondering when you would enter the fray...

 

Well, basically what you said is all true, which is why I really liked the Marvel "What If" animated series, a lot of my friends didn't like it because they said Marvel was changing too many things, even though it was just a what if scenario and it was all alternate universes, people still got pissed off by it.

[Guest]

BOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[iff]

@Calliers

 

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