Masculinity in men and how society thinks making men more feminine will solve all our problems

[RobL2415]

2 hours ago, Blue eyes white dragon said:

I mean yeah normalize the idea the physical intimacy doesn't have to be romantic but perhaps incels haven't gotten a hug from anyone is because they are being a jerk

Then that is a "them" problem that only they can fix.

[Blue eyes white dragon]

1 hour ago, RobL2415 said:

Then that is a "them" problem that only they can fix.

Yeah but dont justify or enable toxic behavior and encourage them to get help instead 

[Calliers]

Just now, Blue eyes white dragon said:

Yeah but dont justify or enable toxic behavior and encourage them to get help instead 

Yeah @Blue eyes white dragon, I'm so on board with you on this one, we aren't condemning them, we understand that they are humans too and they are also in a bad place (coz hurt people hurt people) and we just want them to go out and get the help they need, I think seeing a therapist or a sex therapist would be a good place to start for them.

[The French Unicorn]

People just prefer to accuse other people cor their failure instead of thinking about their wrongs.

Feminists complain about the toxic behavior that society forces on men ? They are extremists who want to esmaculate and effeminate men,  we should not let them ! It is harder to accept that the critics are valid and that if women don't want to date pr just be near men with toxic behavior, this is their right and actually a good thing.

This is like that for everything. People don't like to be criticized, so they try to discredit the ones that criticize them. This is exhausting. 

[Acing It]

19 hours ago, daveb said:

If it's the trend part, a trend could mean people are just doing something because it's popular

That's the part I was aiming at with my remark. Some people just hop on some bandwagon because everyone is doing it, not because they feel it's something they would otherwise do or be attracted to. It's not dissimilar to copying celebrities in what they do, because those celebrities do it. Some would even do things that are morally reprehensible or something just because someone else who's in the media is doing it (this last remark is not aimed at being more feminine by the way! Just a general remark!!) I think it's perfectly ok to follow a trend generally if it's something that fits you or you're attracted to as such. Of course it is. 🙂 

[Acing It]

17 hours ago, JimmyJazz said:

My issue with the toxic masculinity reasoning is that we ascribe it broadly to different exhibited behaviours, in this instance it’s the weaponising of shame to promote the violent and troubling rhetoric of extremist incels. But we would call it toxic masculine if a man repressed his shame, hid it, refused those emotions and behaved as though his rejection does not upset him. I see it as a two sided coin, I’m not sure how these diverging behaviours and responses can be owed to the same explanation.

I can see what you mean. There's a paradox in there you mean? (unless I'm misunderstanding your remark?)

I think that a man showing his feelings of shame and even anger is the opposite of toxicity, or can be. Where this expression becomes toxic again is when this man uses the expression of his feelings to have a toxic effect on others, if that makes sense.

[Acing It]

12 hours ago, Calliers said:

Yeah @Blue eyes white dragon, I'm so on board with you on this one, we aren't condemning them, we understand that they are humans too and they are also in a bad place (coz hurt people hurt people) and we just want them to go out and get the help they need, I think seeing a therapist or a sex therapist would be a good place to start for them.

I agree. Much better than pickup artist leeching off them with their so called support, offering them a very unhealthy alternative and philosophy. It's like snake oil in my view, with bad consequences for everyone involved apart from the pickup artist, who gets richer and richer, like this 'wonderful' example who charges $250 an hour for a 'consultation'. Drawk Kwast (URL deleted so we don't give him the satisfaction of having his link on here)

Edited May 18, 2022 by Acing It

[Repeat Repeat]

As a guy, I’m a big fan of the idea that we should normalize more effeminate expression for men. Or, more precisely, that we should expand the definition of what it means to be masculine. There was a great Atlantic article on this a while back (linked at bottom) that hit the nail right on the head: we’ve normalized historically masculine traits in women, but vice versa has not happened.

 

If anything, the cultural expectation of what a man should do has shrunk, in some fuzzy, subconscious way. Men and boys find it disproportionately difficult to cry, and emotional vulnerability is difficult (as has been mentioned).

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/the-miseducation-of-the-american-boy/603046/

[Guest]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:44 PM, Repeat Repeat said:

... we’ve normalized historically masculine traits in women, but vice versa has not happened.

 

If anything, the cultural expectation of what a man should do has shrunk, in some fuzzy, subconscious way. Men and boys find it disproportionately difficult to cry, and emotional vulnerability is difficult (as has been mentioned).

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/01/the-miseducation-of-the-american-boy/603046/

When striving for equality society mostly focuses on getting women to do the things men do, but we will never have true equality until men can do the things women do. 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

18 hours ago, Black-purple-grey said:

When striving for equality society mostly focuses on getting women to do the things men do, but we will never have true equality until men can do the things women do. 

I'd add the words ".....and prosper." 

 

One of the worst experiences of my working life was getting one of those"offers you can refuse" in re. being promoted into an engineering middle management position because I'd brought a few difficult projects in on-time and under-budget. Oh, and because I was, as upper management put it 'a people person'.  ( BTW. I didn't get a raise, just more responsiblity and only token authority. )  Everything worked well with the fellow enginners who supposedly worked for me, because they already knew their jobs and were conscientous and we'd all agreed that my job was mostly to run interference for them . They didn't need a manager, they just did their jobs.

 

The rest of the departments were a whole different bowl of soup. If you asked people questions on how they'd like to see collaboration go, they'd just sit on their hands. And it wasn't like a could pull a metaphorical switchblade out of my purse and intimidate them, because they'd just go to their boss and complain about me.  One instance that is particularly memorable was when I was supposed to hold a kaizen event for the upper management's new Lean Manufacturing program. One department which was always poorly ran just refused to cooperate. They'd show up an hour and half late for the classes and meetings. Or not show up at all. When I complained to upper managment, I was told I 'needed to kick some ass'. ( Wanna guess which gender the whole department was?)

 

I got soo frustrated I went out back and cried. And got caught. I knew that was the end of this supposedly brave new world. A few  weeks later, they hired someone with an engineering Ph.d. Well, he lasted almost a year and then got fired. I reported to him, and he eventually found out what an intractable shit-show was going on with all the nepotism and bullshitting of customers.

 

Oh well.....

 

 

 

 

 

[RobL2415]

23 hours ago, Black-purple-grey said:

When striving for equality society mostly focuses on getting women to do the things men do, but we will never have true equality until men can do the things women do. 

I agree, but what things can cis men not do (besides getting pregnant) right now that women can?

[daveb]

1 hour ago, RobL2415 said:

I agree, but what things can cis men not do (besides getting pregnant) right now that women can?

A lot of things if they want to avoid various levels of harassment.

[Acing It]

7 hours ago, RobL2415 said:

I agree, but what things can cis men not do (besides getting pregnant) right now that women can?

Try sewing, or being into make-up, or if a man wants to be a childminder, wait for the suspicion of others to come up. What about a man wearing clothes meant for women? Or all the stick trans women get for instance, which you can see as related to the issue. Or showing themselves to be more feminine than society is used to... the list is long! Men generally don't feel it because most fill their role society as ascribed to them well. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Acing It said:

Try sewing, or being into make-up, or if a man wants to be a childminder, wait for the suspicion of others to come up. What about a man wearing clothes meant for women? Or all the stick trans women get for instance, which you can see as related to the issue. Or showing themselves to be more feminine than society is used to... the list is long! Men generally don't feel it because most fill their role society as ascribed to them well. 

I'll add being a stay at home dad to that list. Or showing emotions in public, crying. 

[Lilibulero]

Realising that even in the animal world, the bullying alpha male gets deposed by the females non compliance ( and younger, stronger, kinder males).

[Tetus]

3 minutes ago, Lilibulero said:

Realising that even in the animal world, the bullying alpha male gets deposed by the females non compliance ( and younger, stronger, kinder males).

The entire concept of “alpha males” was from a study whose author later discredited his own work explaining that he originally studied wolves in captivity. In the wild, there is no alpha/beta dynamic.

 

Also, people aren’t, generally speaking, wolves, regardless of anyone’s status vis a vis captivity.

[Lilibulero]

I'm only quoting from the radio 4 show I mentioned in another thread @Epic Tetus. I've read on other threads recently about the debunking of it, but today it was discussed by a UCL professor on radio, with regards to gender / sex dichotomy.

[Tetus]

3 minutes ago, Lilibulero said:

I'm only quoting from the radio 4 show I mentioned in another thread @Epic Tetus. I've read on other threads recently about the debunking of it, but today it was discussed by a UCL professor on radio, with regards to gender / sex dichotomy.

Sure - I don’t mean it as a personal attack on you, and from your context I know you weren’t directly endorsing the idea that people should emulate “alpha” behavior.

 

I just think it’s important to clarify that there’s no actual support for the whole alpha/beta thing at all. It has entered the modern zeitgeist despite the fact that it is a fundamentally incorrect observation of a non-human species, and I think it’s worth just pointing out every time that the idea comes up, even tangentially, that it is:

 

1. Demonstrably wrong.

2. About wolves, not humans.

3. Unambiguously rejected by the person who did the initial study.

[Snao Cone]

4 minutes ago, Epic Tetus said:

1. Demonstrably wrong.

2. About wolves, not humans.

3. Unambiguously rejected by the person who did the initial study.

But some men feel it's true, which makes it a fact of how reality operates. *head tap*

[Tetus]

Just now, Snao Cone said:

But some men feel it's true, which makes it a fact of how reality operates. *head tap*

Inside every man are two wolves, and since they are in captivity, one is a total Chad.

[Zagadka]

I feel like this entire premise is heavily predicated on binary social masculine and feminine behaviors being the only way to classify things. The implication of the question is that if you aren't traditionally masculine or feminine, you must be inherently feminine or masculine.

[Tetus]

2 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

I feel like this entire premise is heavily predicated on binary social masculine and feminine behaviors being the only way to classify things. The implication of the question is that if you aren't traditionally masculine or feminine, you must be inherently feminine or masculine.

It also carries the implication that all social structures must be hierarchical. Like it isn’t possible to actually work with other people on equal footing, and this is somehow a law of nature passed down from our wolf ancestors.

[Snao Cone]

3 hours ago, Epic Tetus said:

our wolf ancestors

Can't be wrong if it comes from our wolf ancestors (or our banana ancestors).

[Sally]

On 5/21/2022 at 6:37 AM, Black-purple-grey said:

 we will never have true equality until men can do the things women do. 

We'll never have true equity until everyone can do the things that they choose to do.  

[Calliers]

On 5/23/2022 at 1:50 PM, Sally said:

We'll never have true equity until everyone can do the things that they choose to do.  

I agree. Until men can do the things that women do without being called fruity, we're still living in the stone age when it comes to men and women being equal.

[Lord Jade Cross]

14 minutes ago, Calliers said:

I agree. Until men can do the things that women do without being called fruity, we're still living in the stone age when it comes to men and women being equal.

Im just saying, I better get that $8000 Spiderman lunchbox if Im getting proposed to LOL

 

 

[Calliers]

3 minutes ago, Lord Jade Cross said:

Im just saying, I better get that $8000 Spiderman lunchbox if Im getting proposed to LOL

 

 

That is soooo true!!!!

[Epitaph]

 

On 5/21/2022 at 7:37 AM, Black-purple-grey said:

When striving for equality society mostly focuses on getting women to do the things men do, but we will never have true equality until men can do the things women do. 

 

It's probably a useless nitpick that comes down to the wording of the post, but honestly, "getting" people to do things that other people do sounds really lame and non constructive. People shouldn't have to be "gotten" to do anything, rather just be allowed to do what they're comfortable with.

[notactuallymerida]

On 5/17/2022 at 6:38 AM, Ceebs said:

I've given up on literally all ideologies surrounding sex and gender. I subscribe to nothing. Everybody just be whoever they are; the people who have similar beliefs and like you for you will find you (well, if you put in some effort).

Exactly. Why can’t we just let people be who they want to be? (unless they want to be sexist, racist or any kind of -phobic) Even if 99% of men wanted to be masculine, why shouldn’t we support the 1% that want to be more feminine? It’s not harming anyone, but making their lives a lot easier.

 

 

On 5/17/2022 at 9:48 AM, Calliers said:

This is so true!

 

I think not every man has to be masculine yes, but I think I should have added that I meant about straight men, in vanilla relationships (by vanilla I mean your average heterosexual relationship).

Okay, but what does it matter whether the man in question is allocishet or not? What would be the problem with a relationship between a feminine man and a masculine woman?