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Masculinity in men and how society thinks making men more feminine will solve all our problems


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I really think people should stop bashing incels (not saying I'm one) but I mean, just watch this video that's a couple minutes long, it's not their fault that they're the way they are. Society thinks that by making men less masculine it will solve the problems it has but that will in fact exacerbate the problems we have - instead of trying to change the masculinity of men just like this video said we should teach men to channel their masculine energy into positive places (man is by nature spirit and animal, if these too are not balanced and he is all spirit he becomes a weak man that allows the other extreme the complete animal that turns into a wicked and evil man to cause problems in this world to do whatever they want in the world).

 

"By his intellect, [man] is mere spirit and by his appetite mere animal." - C.S. Lewis

 

Edit: apparently the video is from PragerU some youtube channel that doesn't really have a good track record with people, I won't remove it but just wanted to say I didn't know that this channel had such a  bad rep, so I apologize for using it! :lol:

 

Also please understand that I believe men can also be feminine, what I am zeroing in on with this topic is vanilla ( the average ) heterosexual relationship.

 

 

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Other than PragerU getting the absolute piss taken out of them for meme material, you know who we can always use as a perfect example of masculinity that's both masculine but non destructive and vitrolic?

 

aragorn.jpg?fit=1392,788&ssl=1

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1 minute ago, E said:

Other than PragerU getting the absolute piss taken out of them for meme material, you know who we can always use as a perfect example of masculinity that's both masculine but non destructive and vitrolic?

 

aragorn.jpg?fit=1392,788&ssl=1

What I find comical is the very same feminists that are pushing the men should be feminine agenda at the same time turn around and say "why can't men be more masculine!?" :lol:

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I've given up on literally all ideologies surrounding sex and gender. I subscribe to nothing. Everybody just be whoever they are; the people who have similar beliefs and like you for you will find you (well, if you put in some effort).

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Fraggle Underdark

OTOH society mostly tells dudes to be really masculine.

 

Anyway I strongly recommend that people stay away from incel material if they can. There are a few valid points there but they run and run with it, and they live in echo chambers where they both shun any meaningful critique (or don't believe it because of what are essentially conspiracy theories) and nobody is interested in giving them the kind of critique they need. So going into incel material can feel like the sky opening but in reality is jumping down a rabbit hole.

 

More generally, it's a good idea to stay away from extremes. Treat people well, live up to your own standards because they're your standards, not others, be kind and try to understand others.

 

And yeah, "there is no cause so correct that it does not attract its share of idiots". There are idiots in every group, and a few idiots in any group isn't a good reason go way in the other direction.

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1 minute ago, daveb said:
  Hide contents

33496656a9dd191f6c25fcbca7f7ade8.jpeg

 

🤣

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1 minute ago, Calliers said:

What I find comical is the very same feminists that are pushing the men should be feminine agenda at the same time turn around and say "why can't men be more masculine!?" :lol:

 

You know the lame thing about all of it Calli? I think people need to stop giving a fuck about what's masculine or feminine. People automatically drift into a sort of category all by themselves, so we'll always have this fuzzy definition of what masculine and feminine is, and we'll never be rid of it. The actual source of most of our woes throughout history is that people give too much of a fuck about trying to box other people into these vague definitions.

 

The real sad thing is, somewhere in the origins of feminist movements there was and still is a push for guys not to be feminine, but to have no reservations about being percieved as such. That's a healthy outlook. What's sad about this is the more useless and extremist end of people that like to believe themselves to be feminists, the ones trying to highlight that masculinity in itself is a bad thing detract from this point.

 

This is why I think for one out of many reasons that today there's so much friction between the sexes, and if we're talking about masculinity, why we're seeing more and more groups of men arise that show total hostility towards feminism or femininity. In trying to erase the definition of masculinity or label most of it as something that's bad, the sort of empathic collective group think is to retaliate, which further widens the divide while giving fuel to the radical feminist's fire to prove their point that masuclinity is a bad thing.

 

The only sane way to deal with any of it is to just not care about what others are, while nurturing positive qualities. That's literally fucking it and people still manage to botch that and weaponize it for a means of control.

 

You wonder why I'm such a depressed bag of bones Calli. I hate watching how fucking idiotic our species is.

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Blue eyes white dragon

Actual feminism isn't trying to feminize men, we just want to have better treatment and healthier people that are true to themselves while being kind to each other. Masculinity isn't bad, but toxic Masculinity is unhealthy and harmful. Same with femininity. We also want to help take down stupid harmful stereotypes, a man wearing a skirt isn't less of a man so we shouldn't act like they are less of one. Anyone should who they are (without harming others). Also what is feminine and what is masculine are very arbitrary ideas and varies from cultures. But if your Masculinity is based on being superior to women and trying to control them, is that Masculinity or just shitty behavior?

 

The problem with incels is that they are acting entitled to sex and women and don't seem women as human and are heavy in the toxic Masculinity  department 

 

Also pragerU is 🤮, they are extremely biased and don't give honest facts and want to try to control people. They are neocon garbage and isn't good to use for open discussions due to them being extremely biased

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I'm not convinced different people use the same definition of "masculinity" so conversations are difficult.   There are some positive and some negative thing associated with masculinity, and lots of things that some people include and others don't.

 

In general I think traits of courage, self reliance and self sacrifice are valuable - but as valuable to women as to men.  Traits like competitiveness can be good or bad depending on the situation.    Aggression and random violence are just bad - and just  as bad for women as for men

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LOl! @Blue eyes white dragon Just thought they presented an interesting view, didn't know that pragerU stuff is weird lol. :lol:

 

Also, the incels I mean are the true ones, I'm not talking about the MGTOW guys or whatever - the guys that actually say they hate women lol, those guys are nuts, I'm talking about the guys who can't get a date if you put a gun to their head, heck they can't even pull up enough courage to talk to a woman or man or nonbinary whichever way they may identify.

 

I kind of feel sorry for these kinds of incels, because when the term "incel" first came about it was used to describe them, it truly meant involuntary celibate, aka someone who couldn't get with a girl or guy or nonbinary even if he wanted to. I used to know a guy like this, and I stopped being friends with him because I think he was the MOST negative guy I have EVER known, he basically thought he couldn't get a girl no matter how much I tried to pump up his confidence to just try, on top of that he never even left the house and just stayed at home playing games.

 

Also, I think this woman makes a bit of sense in what she said in this video, I haven't seen any of her other videos so I don't know how she is like normally but in this video she makes sense.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Calliers said:

What I find comical is the very same feminists that are pushing the men should be feminine agenda at the same time turn around and say "why can't men be more masculine!?" :lol:

Some women want more masculine men, some want more feminine men, and fortunately there are a huge range of men out there! :D

 

39 minutes ago, Calliers said:

I really think people should stop bashing incels (not saying I'm one) but I mean, just watch this video that's a couple minutes long, it's not their fault that they're the way they are.

I can't tell if this is serious or not 😅  I was researching incels a while back and went into incel forums (pretending to be a male incel) to get a better idea of their beliefs and attitudes etc. The vast majority of them had extremely detrimental ideologies and kind of made it abundantly clear why they couldn't get sex! Again though I'm not entirely sure if this is serious or not, heh

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Blue eyes white dragon
2 minutes ago, Calliers said:

kind of feel sorry for these kinds of incels, because when the term "incel" first came about it was used to describe them, it truly meant involuntary celibate, aka someone who couldn't get with a girl or guy or nonbinary even if he wanted to. I used to know a guy like this, and I stopped being friends with him because I think he was the MOST negative guy I have EVER known, he basically thought he couldn't get a girl no matter how much I tried to pump up his confidence to just try, on top of that he never even left the house and just stayed at home playing games.

I can see where you are coming but it still comes from a place of entitlement a lot. Sometimes though it's people thinking sex or relationships or something will make their life better but it won't because they need help instead of a distraction 

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2 minutes ago, Major West said:

Some women want more masculine men, some want more feminine men, and fortunately there are a huge range of men out there! :D

 

I can't tell if this is serious or not 😅  I was researching incels a while back and went into incel forums (pretending to be a male incel) to get a better idea of their beliefs and attitudes etc. The vast majority of them had extremely detrimental ideologies and kind of made it abundantly clear why they couldn't get sex! Again though I'm not entirely sure if this is serious or not, heh

Oh it is serious!

 

You know what I think? I think it is the sour grape effect! :lol:

 

You know, I couldn't reach the grape, so it probably tastes bad anyways! :D

 

Just now, Blue eyes white dragon said:

I can see where you are coming but it still comes from a place of entitlement a lot. Sometimes though it's people thinking sex or relationships or something will make their life better but it won't because they need help instead of a distraction 

Amen sister amen!

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21 minutes ago, Calliers said:

 truly meant involuntary celibate

 

21 minutes ago, Calliers said:

I used to know a guy like this, and I stopped being friends with him because I think he was the MOST negative guy I have EVER known, he basically thought he couldn't get a girl no matter how much I tried to pump up his confidence to just try, on top of that he never even left the house and just stayed at home playing games

..that's why he can't get a girl lol.

 

It's not that he can't get sex through no fault of his own - you couldn't even stay friends with him!! Why would a girl want to sleep with someone like that when even friendship is impossible to maintain due to how negative they are?

 

That's the exact issue with so many "incels" (not even the crazy MGTOW ones, just your average incel-identifying guy); they're often extreeeeeemely negative and that's why they can't get sex. It's extremely hard to be around them, and that just reinforces their negativity as they're too busy being sure that everyone else is the problem. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy! Then on top of that they usually never leave the house etc.. but not leaving the house is also a huge barrier to getting sex lol.

 

The reason these guys can't get girls has nothing to do with women having overly high standards though, or wanting men to be too masculine or too feminine, it's the exact same reason you couldn't stay friends with him: people are automatically repelled by that level of negativity! It's too draining to be around.

 

I've met very few people who are truly involuntarily celibate as there are usually very clear reasons in their attitude and beliefs which lead to their celibacy .

 

I actually can't have any form of sexual intercourse in any way that is pleasurable to me due to a pain disorder so that's technically truly involuntarily celibate.. though I am happy with celibacy so would never ID as an incel  😅

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Yeah, I mean, I just feel sorry for them, but if they're all like that, like you said *throws up hands* self-fulfilling prophecy. :lol:

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Deltalorian

I don't know if this has been said yet, but I think that instead of having a pre-determined idea of what masculinity and femininity is, both of those can be whatever you want them to be, and you can be as masculine/feminine you want to be based on your own definitions of both of those things.

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RoseGoesToYale

I had to check to make sure this thread wasn't in JFF because PragerU is an absolute joke. Albeit, a very sexist, white supremacist, ableist joke.

 

My viewpoint on incels comes from sociologist critique; we're never going to solve the problem of incels and gender-based hate/violence until we understand what in the sam hill is turning certain white men on to ideas of hatred toward women, and then going after the structures that lead them there. I already have a few theories. A lot of these white men are poorer and come from the Southern US, where economic opportunities are not only scant, but rapidly dwindling as more and more talent moves to cities and the economy becomes less physical and more digital. These men were raised with conservative, evangelical Christian values about what masculinity is: being able to provide for and protect a family, working hard, being strong and powerful, especially over women. What happens when these guys have to validate their identity through work, but the opportunities are scarce where they live? They get mad. They look for a scapegoat. Women make a pretty good scapegoat because they've made many advances in the economy in the most recent decades, although their advances have nothing to do why the economy has shifted (immigrants also make a good scapegoat in this scenario). Strong, liberated women represent a challenge to everything these guys have been taught. Young white boys in poor areas have little hope of going to college and breaking into new industries. Some may have been actively dissuaded from going by parents or conservatives. They're restless and directionless, trying to affirm a masculine identity the world doesn't seem to recognize anymore. Maybe they play video games to feel the power and dominance they were promised for having been born with a penis. Maybe they start bashing women because it elevates them and makes them feel like they matter as a man. Maybe they buy a gun, or start playing around with their father's gun, because that's what men used to do... they used to go off to war, kill the bad guy, come back home and be hailed as heroes. Maybe they were starved of love from their mothers because they were afraid getting too close to their sons would emasculate them. Maybe somewhere inside, they resent them for it. Maybe they never got any physical love from their fathers because that would be "gay". Mental healthcare is too expensive or non-existent. These men are utterly starved for love and validation, have no way of ever voicing their emotional needs, and at their most vulnerable. So who preys on them? Hate groups. 8chan. Groups of other men who promise them that (very much no-homo) love and validation of their masculinity. At the price of any ability to love they had left. How many social structures do you see in here? How many can be torn down so we never have to use the word "incel" again?

 

As for masculinity itself, I'm part of the men's lib subreddit (and yes, I have a uterus). They're a feminist-aligned group aimed at discussing and bringing men's issues to light, including mental health, body image, restrictive gender roles and what it means to be a man in the 21st century. I've read many discussions, and one central theme there is that many heterosexual men still don't feel comfortable being openly vulnerable, especially around women (and it has to do with ideas girls get taught about what being a "man" is, too), being able to do things that are traditionally feminine, or being able to explore the feminine parts of themselves. Gay men are constantly trying to renegotiate the line between their sexuality, their gender identity and how society sees them. Black men have to deal with racialized double standards of masculinity that white people apply to them... violent, predatory and hypersexual on one hand, and submissive, uneducated and effeminate on the other. It's the constant pressure of gender roles and now conservative politicians trying their damnedest to enforce hypermasculine ideals that's causing the problem. Women got their liberation, for the most part, in the 70s. Men never got theirs. We still expect penis-bearers to breadwin, to compete, to be strong, to protect, to always be emotional rocks, and it's literally killing men, if not with suicide, then with drugs, alcohol, risky or violent behavior, or taking on deadly occupations.

 

Man is, by nature, human. He eats. He cries. He pees and shits. He needs acceptance. He needs purpose. He needs hugs. He needs joy. He needs healthy role models, regardless of gender. He needs healthy relationships. He needs mental healthcare. He needs to be able to express himself. He needs love. In the end, it comes down to that. Men need to know they're worthy of love no matter if they're strong or weak, competitive or cooperative, protective or in need of protection. If they believe the only way they can be worthy of love is by ascribing to conservative, hypermasculine diatribe, guess what's going to happen?

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I think this video offers some counterpoints worth considering on this subject. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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1 hour ago, Calliers said:

Society thinks that by making men less masculine it will solve the problems it has

Ridding society of toxic masculinity is not the same as making men less masculine.

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I'm already struggling with 'male' or 'female' energy. That smells like pointlessly gendered. Everyone has all the energy and trying to split it into gender categories seems useless, dangerous even. Because it presses individuals in categories that they have to fit in at every price. It's that gendering that has probably made boys struggle to a point that they turned to incel-dom or MGTOW. Don't force boys to be 'boys'. Let them be who they are.

 

What I also struggle with is that being 'male' has to be the contrary to 'female' as it has been proclaimed to be since at least somewhen in antiquity. It might be selfish, but I rather avoid traditional gender roles as much as possible because I'm tired of being seen as the 'lesser' by default. Seeing gender in a traditional light without doing so has been proven to be pretty much impossible by all the people that I know that have or are following those views. And those that didn't end up in a women are 'the other' mindset while seeing it as 'unchangeable given' are in fact much more modern than they think they are.

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Calligraphette_Coe

I just thank anyone people pray to that I'm asexual. I have always had an easier time understanding nuclear physics than this relationship stuff. Can't make up my mind if it's a Gender Cyclotron or Mystery Science Theater 3000.

 

As far as the leadership thing? Well yeah, but what if the leader is an idiot? And ever notice how the most confident people have the least reason to feel that way? And how the Call of the Wild leads you into the cold wilderness and strands you there ?

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1 hour ago, Calliers said:

Also, the incels I mean are the true ones, I'm not talking about the MGTOW guys or whatever - the guys that actually say they hate women lol, those guys are nuts, I'm talking about the guys who can't get a date if you put a gun to their head, heck they can't even pull up enough courage to talk to a woman or man or nonbinary whichever way they may identify.

I know it's none of my business but the incels you are talking about shall find a new label asap! The associations with the word and its meaning in pop-culture, if you so want, are way too strong to make any potential valid point after 'outing' oneself.

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Hmm...this sounds as though it's throwing feminine men under the bus, as though implying there's something wrong with that and that men shouldn't be--or aspire to be--feminine.

 

It's something gender non-conforming, feminine men have to deal with, in society.

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1 hour ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

I had to check to make sure this thread wasn't in JFF because PragerU is an absolute joke. Albeit, a very sexist, white supremacist, ableist joke.

 

My viewpoint on incels comes from sociologist critique; we're never going to solve the problem of incels and gender-based hate/violence until we understand what in the sam hill is turning certain white men on to ideas of hatred toward women, and then going after the structures that lead them there. I already have a few theories. A lot of these white men are poorer and come from the Southern US, where economic opportunities are not only scant, but rapidly dwindling as more and more talent moves to cities and the economy becomes less physical and more digital. These men were raised with conservative, evangelical Christian values about what masculinity is: being able to provide for and protect a family, working hard, being strong and powerful, especially over women. What happens when these guys have to validate their identity through work, but the opportunities are scarce where they live? They get mad. They look for a scapegoat. Women make a pretty good scapegoat because they've made many advances in the economy in the most recent decades, although their advances have nothing to do why the economy has shifted (immigrants also make a good scapegoat in this scenario). Strong, liberated women represent a challenge to everything these guys have been taught. Young white boys in poor areas have little hope of going to college and breaking into new industries. Some may have been actively dissuaded from going by parents or conservatives. They're restless and directionless, trying to affirm a masculine identity the world doesn't seem to recognize anymore. Maybe they play video games to feel the power and dominance they were promised for having been born with a penis. Maybe they start bashing women because it elevates them and makes them feel like they matter as a man. Maybe they buy a gun, or start playing around with their father's gun, because that's what men used to do... they used to go off to war, kill the bad guy, come back home and be hailed as heroes. Maybe they were starved of love from their mothers because they were afraid getting too close to their sons would emasculate them. Maybe somewhere inside, they resent them for it. Maybe they never got any physical love from their fathers because that would be "gay". Mental healthcare is too expensive or non-existent. These men are utterly starved for love and validation, have no way of ever voicing their emotional needs, and at their most vulnerable. So who preys on them? Hate groups. 8chan. Groups of other men who promise them that (very much no-homo) love and validation of their masculinity. At the price of any ability to love they had left. How many social structures do you see in here? How many can be torn down so we never have to use the word "incel" again?

 

As for masculinity itself, I'm part of the men's lib subreddit (and yes, I have a uterus). They're a feminist-aligned group aimed at discussing and bringing men's issues to light, including mental health, body image, restrictive gender roles and what it means to be a man in the 21st century. I've read many discussions, and one central theme there is that many heterosexual men still don't feel comfortable being openly vulnerable, especially around women (and it has to do with ideas girls get taught about what being a "man" is, too), being able to do things that are traditionally feminine, or being able to explore the feminine parts of themselves. Gay men are constantly trying to renegotiate the line between their sexuality, their gender identity and how society sees them. Black men have to deal with racialized double standards of masculinity that white people apply to them... violent, predatory and hypersexual on one hand, and submissive, uneducated and effeminate on the other. It's the constant pressure of gender roles and now conservative politicians trying their damnedest to enforce hypermasculine ideals that's causing the problem. Women got their liberation, for the most part, in the 70s. Men never got theirs. We still expect penis-bearers to breadwin, to compete, to be strong, to protect, to always be emotional rocks, and it's literally killing men, if not with suicide, then with drugs, alcohol, risky or violent behavior, or taking on deadly occupations.

 

Man is, by nature, human. He eats. He cries. He pees and shits. He needs acceptance. He needs purpose. He needs hugs. He needs joy. He needs healthy role models, regardless of gender. He needs healthy relationships. He needs mental healthcare. He needs to be able to express himself. He needs love. In the end, it comes down to that. Men need to know they're worthy of love no matter if they're strong or weak, competitive or cooperative, protective or in need of protection. If they believe the only way they can be worthy of love is by ascribing to conservative, hypermasculine diatribe, guess what's going to happen?

This is so true!

 

3 minutes ago, LeChat said:

Hmm...this sounds as though it's throwing feminine men under the bus, as though implying there's something wrong with that and that men shouldn't be--or aspire to be--feminine.

 

It's something gender non-conforming, feminine men have to deal with, in society.

I think not every man has to be masculine yes, but I think I should have added that I meant about straight men, in vanilla relationships (by vanilla I mean your average heterosexual relationship).

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Ella of Frell
1 hour ago, Calliers said:

I think not every man has to be masculine yes, but I think I should have added that I meant about straight men, in vanilla relationships (by vanilla I mean your average heterosexual relationship).

But, if we expect straight men in "vanilla" relationships to be masculine but allow non-heterosexual men to be more feminine, wouldn't that just promote problematic stereotypes? I mean, I get that straight men are more likely to present "masculinity," but isn't that part of what leads to toxic masculinity? It seems to me that separating sexuality from personality (which is really all masculinity and femininity are) would be more beneficial. 

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Lysandre, the Star-Crossed

Here's a better idea...

Let's just stop attributing masculinity or femininity to anything, it's all incredibly subjective and arbitrary to begin with. Let people be who and how they want.

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what the face

Here’s another idea . . .

we are all multidimensional beings

at any moment we can 

express what aspects/facets of

our common multidimensional selves

we choose.

That we might have preferred or

more or less developed or unrecognized facets of our

Wholeness,  THIS

is what makes us unique.

Our journeys/all are one’s of 

both discovery and recovery

those/all aspects of our shared

human condition.

 

                                     yeah 

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Lord Jade Cross

Ive never really understood the concept of masculinity. All I know is that if you werent doing any sports, obsessing over cars,  hanging out with a bunch of guys, getting piss drunk, starting fist fights for no reason, and of course, looking to get laid at every corner,  somehow you werent a "real man" 

 

Even more difficult to understand was how not being this "ideal" version of a man, somehow sent people into this strange form of dissaray whereby they felt forced to make sure you complied with the status quo. Honestly its no different than when you say you wont vote because you dont believe in any of the political parties and all of the sudden hell is about to break loose and comunism will rule the world and we will all die a painful and miserable death and.....wut?

 

How is my choice to not have sex (and I'll phrase it this way because being asexual doesnt stop me from having sex, it just severely makes me uninterested in the idea. Plus I did think I needed to have it at one point so pretty safe to say that its not that asexuality somehow prevents ideas or sexual thoughts from coming about) somehow alter the fabric of existence?

 

Pretty sure alot of guys out there have never had sex, some dont care about it, some dont want it, etc.

 

 

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Lysandre, the Star-Crossed

I do find it comical that one side wants to "feminize" men and the other side actively wants to promote masculinity. Granted, this is an incredibly reductionist way of looking at it...but it's still interesting to me.

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