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Trying to figure out my gender identity while being gender apathetic is hard...


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Before I start I just want to give a warning that this post is going to be long and kind of rambling at times so please bear with me.

 

Anyway  I am an AFAB person and I have recently discovered the term gender apathy and it fits me perfectly. In short I do not feel that my gender contributes to my identity as a person. For example I have no pronoun prefrence because it does not effect my sense of self with the exception of "it" because that feels dehumizing to me. However even with little personal feelings about my gender I have been considering the possibility of being non-binary as being called a woman makes me extremly uncomfortable ( I do not mind being called a girl as much but it also feel off). I can't quite explain why but it just feels wrong to me. Additionally I sometimes look at men and think to myself. "I wish I could look more like that." or "I wish I could dress more like that." especially towards more androgynous presenting guys. These feelings do not relate to my body as I am tall, flat and satisfied with the way I look; but I do want to start experimenting with dressing more masculine and presenting in a more gender neutral way.

 

So with all these feelings I have been looking at non binary identities like agender and bi gender and I think some of these labels fit me but as soon as I start to use them to refer to myself it starts too feel wrong because I am labeling and putting emphasis on my gender when I feel no connection with it in the first place... see the problem here?

 

 Now I am wondering if I should even put a label on my identity to begin with. I am also asking a lot of questions to myself right now like:

 

Am I denying my feminity because it is viewed unfavorably by society?

 

Do I only feel this way because of my body type?

 

Am I over thinking this?

 

Am I just a gender apathetic cis  girl/woman that does not like emphasis on their gender?

 

And the scarest question that keeps intruding my thoughts as a teenager going through all this:

 

Is this just a phase I will grow out of soon?

 

I am not sure if this is a common experience but does anyone have any suggestions about what I should do?

(And if you did finish this post thanks for reading!)

 

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Ella of Frell

So, I can't relate to your situation as I am a cis female and have never felt any disconnection to my gender. However, one of my best friends is nonbinary, and I think they have felt somewhat similar to you. My friend is AMAB and has struggled with the idea of labels for a long time. First, they didn't know how to label their sexuality, thinking they were gay and accepting that and then freaking out a bit when they were still attracted to women. Eventually, they decided that gender didn't matter to them in a partner, though they still sometimes have hangups being in a relationship that could be perceived as heterosexual (though both parties are nonbinary). Gender-wise, they identify as nonbinary because they consider themself both masculine and feminine. They like the feminine parts of their personality and dressing more feminine sometimes, but they also don't feel like a woman. The they/them pronouns is their way of trying to be genderless and showing that gender doesn't matter to them. However, lately, they've been wondering if they should own their male identity more, mostly because they feel there needs to be better representation of men who aren't toxic. So, they might change back to masculine pronouns, but they might not. 

My point with this is that labels don't really matter aside from offering you a better understanding of yourself and more easily sharing that with others. If you feel genderless, it's fine to identify as such. It's also fine to change your mind later. My friend is 35, so don't bet on "growing out" of your feelings. Be whoever you feel you are at the moment and don't worry about trying to find a label that can last forever. We're all just figuring ourselves out, and it's probably going to be a lifelong struggle. 

Good luck! 

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This  whole thought process makes a lot of sense to me.

 

This idea of not wanting to experiment with other labels because it defeats the point of not wanting to call attention to your gender resonates deeply with me. (And, for reference, I'm in my 40s, not at all a teen!)  For the most part I really dislike being asked for pronouns or having to engage in conversations about my gender, because I'm just like, "please don't make me call attention to my gender; please just let it be what it is and something we both ignore, so we can get on with whatever we're doing that actually matters."  
In your post, when you ask, "see the problem here?" yeah, I totally do!  I get it.  Spending a lot of time dwelling on a set of questions that you don't think should matter but that seem to matter relative to other societal expectations can be annoying.  I hear you.

 

 

fwiw, at least as relates to the pronoun and gender identity issue, for me, also afab, I've more or less decided that the best way to accomplish this is just to go with she/her pronouns because those are the pronouns that will call the least attention to themselves.  But again, I'm in my 40s.  If I were younger and in a community where using other pronouns was a lot more common and less note-worthy, maybe I'd feel differently.  I can't possibly know whether I'd feel differently, but I might.  

There is not a right or a wrong answer for you to go with for you, and whatever you decide to go with is fine.  It's not like you have to choose a label or a set of pronouns that reveal some deep inner truth about you.  I mean, some people do that, and that's great, but if your attitude is, "this doesn't matter to me," then as long as you don't pick something that you're actively uncomfortable with, that's just fine.  It doesn't have to be a window to your soul if you don't want it to be one!!

 

 

In the list you have at the bottom of your post, you're asking reasonable questions that emerge both out of your feelings about gender and your life circumstances (age, body type, and presumably a whole bunch of other things about your life situation).  And those things are going to interact!  None of us exist independent of our life circumstances, so it's not like there is any way to answer, "well, but how would I feel about this if I was in exactly the same circumstance but I  looked different or lived somewhere else or were older or etc., etc."  But here's the key point.  Whether or not the feelings that you have may be related to one of those things, they're still  the feelings that you're having.  They're still real!  

 

 

 

So. 

 

Are you overthinking it?  

I dunno.  Does thinking about it make you feel better, or do you feel like you're learning something or developing greater understanding, or do you think that reaching resolution on some of these issues will give you a bit of peace?  Then no, you're not overthinking it.  On the other hand, does thinking about it annoy you and make you wish you could just get on with your life and focus on your other interests?  Then yes, you are overthinking it.  If that's the case, put it on the shelf, wear whatever clothes you want to wear and do whatever you want to do, and come back and think about it again in a few weeks or months or years, check in with yourself, and decide whether it's worth thinking about then.  

 

 

The point is, you are ok no matter what.

And, you don't have to have a gender identity that is front and center just because lots of other people do.  

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20 minutes ago, beta_moon said:

So, I can't relate to your situation as I am a cis female and have never felt any disconnection to my gender. However, one of my best friends is nonbinary, and I think they have felt somewhat similar to you. My friend is AMAB and has struggled with the idea of labels for a long time. First, they didn't know how to label their sexuality, thinking they were gay and accepting that and then freaking out a bit when they were still attracted to women. Eventually, they decided that gender didn't matter to them in a partner, though they still sometimes have hangups being in a relationship that could be perceived as heterosexual (though both parties are nonbinary). Gender-wise, they identify as nonbinary because they consider themself both masculine and feminine. They like the feminine parts of their personality and dressing more feminine sometimes, but they also don't feel like a woman. The they/them pronouns is their way of trying to be genderless and showing that gender doesn't matter to them. However, lately, they've been wondering if they should own their male identity more, mostly because they feel there needs to be better representation of men who aren't toxic. So, they might change back to masculine pronouns, but they might not. 

My point with this is that labels don't really matter aside from offering you a better understanding of yourself and more easily sharing that with others. If you feel genderless, it's fine to identify as such. It's also fine to change your mind later. My friend is 35, so don't bet on "growing out" of your feelings. Be whoever you feel you are at the moment and don't worry about trying to find a label that can last forever. We're all just figuring ourselves out, and it's probably going to be a lifelong struggle. 

Good luck! 

Thank you for sharing this story! I glad that I am not the only one out there with this experience.

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19 minutes ago, sirenian said:

This  whole thought process makes a lot of sense to me.

 

This idea of not wanting to experiment with other labels because it defeats the point of not wanting to call attention to your gender resonates deeply with me. (And, for reference, I'm in my 40s, not at all a teen!)  For the most part I really dislike being asked for pronouns or having to engage in conversations about my gender, because I'm just like, "please don't make me call attention to my gender; please just let it be what it is and something we both ignore, so we can get on with whatever we're doing that actually matters."  
In your post, when you ask, "see the problem here?" yeah, I totally do!  I get it.  Spending a lot of time dwelling on a set of questions that you don't think should matter but that seem to matter relative to other societal expectations can be annoying.  I hear you.

 

 

fwiw, at least as relates to the pronoun and gender identity issue, for me, also afab, I've more or less decided that the best way to accomplish this is just to go with she/her pronouns because those are the pronouns that will call the least attention to themselves.  But again, I'm in my 40s.  If I were younger and in a community where using other pronouns was a lot more common and less note-worthy, maybe I'd feel differently.  I can't possibly know whether I'd feel differently, but I might.  

There is not a right or a wrong answer for you to go with for you, and whatever you decide to go with is fine.  It's not like you have to choose a label or a set of pronouns that reveal some deep inner truth about you.  I mean, some people do that, and that's great, but if your attitude is, "this doesn't matter to me," then as long as you don't pick something that you're actively uncomfortable with, that's just fine.  It doesn't have to be a window to your soul if you don't want it to be one!!

 

 

In the list you have at the bottom of your post, you're asking reasonable questions that emerge both out of your feelings about gender and your life circumstances (age, body type, and presumably a whole bunch of other things about your life situation).  And those things are going to interact!  None of us exist independent of our life circumstances, so it's not like there is any way to answer, "well, but how would I feel about this if I was in exactly the same circumstance but I  looked different or lived somewhere else or were older or etc., etc."  But here's the key point.  Whether or not the feelings that you have may be related to one of those things, they're still  the feelings that you're having.  They're still real!  

 

 

 

So. 

 

Are you overthinking it?  

I dunno.  Does thinking about it make you feel better, or do you feel like you're learning something or developing greater understanding, or do you think that reaching resolution on some of these issues will give you a bit of peace?  Then no, you're not overthinking it.  On the other hand, does thinking about it annoy you and make you wish you could just get on with your life and focus on your other interests?  Then yes, you are overthinking it.  If that's the case, put it on the shelf, wear whatever clothes you want to wear and do whatever you want to do, and come back and think about it again in a few weeks or months or years, check in with yourself, and decide whether it's worth thinking about then.  

 

 

The point is, you are ok no matter what.

And, you don't have to have a gender identity that is front and center just because lots of other people do.  

Thanks for replying! On the subject of overthinking I don't feel better when I think of my gender identity but at the same time I also feel that by looking into it I am better understanding myself as a person. However I do get frustrated sometimes with the amount of labels out there or when I hear people describe how imported their gender is to them (cis and non cis) and I do not understand their feelings.

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Yeah, but it's ok for something to be very important to somebody else and not important to you.

 

We can choose to care very much about the gender identities of other people in order to be supportive of those people without having to care about our own.

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13 minutes ago, sirenian said:

Yeah, but it's ok for something to be very important to somebody else and not important to you.

 

We can choose to care very much about the gender identities of other people in order to be supportive of those people without having to care about our own.

That is true my last post sounded a bit self centered.

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TormentDubz
3 hours ago, Deka404 said:

 I do not feel that my gender contributes to my identity as a person. For example I have no pronoun prefrence because it does not effect my sense of self with the exception of "it" because that feels dehumizing to me.

Same honestly

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oh, @Deka404 I did not mean at all to suggest that your post sounded inappropriately self-centered.  Quite the reverse!  What I meant is that you shouldn't feel like you have to care about your gender just because other people care about theirs.  

 

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Arctangent

I have similar feelings, I think. IRL, I usually let people default to using pronouns with my assigned gender at birth, because it's just easier and I'm used to it. But I don't really have much attachment to them, and in online communities where people don't know what I look like, I'm usually more ambiguous about it.

 

Lately, I realized that I really don't mind (and sometimes kind of like it) when people use they/them pronouns for me here. It's not necessarily that I prefer them to any others, they just... feel like they're equally right to (or at least, no less wrong than) the ones people usually use for me. I've thought about adding they/them to my preferred pronouns to in places outside of AVEN, simply because at this point it's a fact that I'm comfortable with them... but I don't want it to seem like I'm making a big announcement about my gender, because in truth I don't really know what my gender is, and none of the various labels feel right to me. I totally relate to the feeling of not wanting to draw attention to it - it feels like it's not worth the risk when I don't actually feel that strongly about it. But I guess I feel enough of something to be thinking about it, so... eh, who knows? :P

 

The one thing I do know for sure is that I dislike traditional gender roles, and generally don't adhere to them. So, I consider myself gender non conforming, because my understanding is that that's more about your position towards gender norms and roles than being about gender identity per se. A lot of trans/NB people are gender non conforming, but as far as I know it's possible to be GNC and cis too. So that's the only label I really identify with, since it gets across my discomfort with rigid gender roles without requiring me to commit to a more specific identity.

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1 hour ago, Arctangent said:

I have similar feelings, I think. IRL, I usually let people default to using pronouns with my assigned gender at birth, because it's just easier and I'm used to it. But I don't really have much attachment to them, and in online communities where people don't know what I look like, I'm usually more ambiguous about it.

 

Lately, I realized that I really don't mind (and sometimes kind of like it) when people use they/them pronouns for me here. It's not necessarily that I prefer them to any others, they just... feel like they're equally right to (or at least, no less wrong than) the ones people usually use for me. I've thought about adding they/them to my preferred pronouns to in places outside of AVEN, simply because at this point it's a fact that I'm comfortable with them... but I don't want it to seem like I'm making a big announcement about my gender, because in truth I don't really know what my gender is, and none of the various labels feel right to me. I totally relate to the feeling of not wanting to draw attention to it - it feels like it's not worth the risk when I don't actually feel that strongly about it. But I guess I feel enough of something to be thinking about it, so... eh, who knows? :P

 

The one thing I do know for sure is that I dislike traditional gender roles, and generally don't adhere to them. So, I consider myself gender non conforming, because my understanding is that that's more about your position towards gender norms and roles than being about gender identity per se. A lot of trans/NB people are gender non conforming, but as far as I know it's possible to be GNC and cis too. So that's the only label I really identify with, since it gets across my discomfort with rigid gender roles without requiring me to commit to a more specific identity.

Thanks for replying! I have also been experimenting with gender neutral pronouns such as adding them to my AVEN profile but I am in no rush to implement them elsewhere. I feel it would not be worth the hassle.

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SilenceRadio

@Deka404 To be fair, I've felt similarly in the past. I had no pronoun preference (except for they/them) and felt quite gender apathetic, yet I turned out to be a trans guy. Gender apathy is as much of a cis thing as it can be a trans/nonbinary one.

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ExquisiteMystery

I am glad I ran across this.

There seems to be a bit of groupings of people who essentially feel genderless/ agender/ gender-meh, one chunk in the teens, one in the 40s.

I'm in the 40s group. I agree that it's pretty confusing. I think I read this site for a year before choosing agender/NB for safe spaces.

On 5/16/2022 at 9:18 PM, Deka404 said:

Is this just a phase I will grow out of soon?

So current culture has all this emphasis on making rigid, permanent statements. It's actually way more normal to change over time. Social safety, philosophy, partner choices, mental or physical health can all affect how you perceive/express yourself.  Whatever you choose, even if it's "thinking about it" is perfectly ok. 1 week, 6 months, 4 years, however long that describes you, is fine.

On 5/17/2022 at 4:40 PM, Arctangent said:

I don't want it to seem like I'm making a big announcement about my gender, because in truth I don't really know what my gender is, and none of the various labels feel right to me. I totally relate to the feeling of not wanting to draw attention to it - it feels like it's not worth the risk when I don't actually feel that strongly about it. But I guess I feel enough of something to be thinking about it

This made me laugh. Yes! Me too. If I wasn't the designated spell checker for almost everyone, I'd probably feel better about "they/them". It just bugs me to use plural words in singular spaces. And "it" just seems like a bad idea; like something reserved for insects, unwanted animals or problems.

The new gender "X" marker seems interesting, though reminds me of algebra.

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