"Women" fighting for their homeland

[brbdogsonfire]

Links to some quick videos on the "women" who found ways to fight for their homelands. Women is in quotes here as at least one of the people on this list had from their personal writings mentioned they had always felt like a man, and that's Joan of Ark. Due to the historical nature of these people it is impossible to say what gender they should be classified as so I am using what they were considered at the time of their deeds besides for Joan of Arc who although was considered a woman at the time should be in my opinion talked about as a man.

 

Milunka Savic, Serbian War Hero. The power metal band Sabaton has a song about her.

 

 

 

Saint Joan of Arc- the savior of France.

 

 

 

Boudicca, a woman from modern day England who led a tragic revolt against the Roman's after her husband died and tried to peacefully let the Roman's control their lands through his will. The Roman's pillaged her city and raped then murdered her daughters. She led a revolt that nearly drove the Roman's into the sea. Unfortunately her people's certainty of victory led them to use terrible tactics in their final battle and let the heavy Roman infantry destroy her large army.

 

 

 

There are many accounts of women leading armies in the field or as being leaders of nations, but these are stories of women that fought with sword in hand, shoulder to shoulder, with their brothers. They all earned the respect of the men they fought with. Like many great men of history that made their names in combat a bloody fate was in store for Joan, and Boudicca. Milunka Savic though not only fought through the entirety of WW1, but also served in the Balkan wars that were a prelude to WW1.  For most of those that live by the sword die by the sword.

 

We shouldn't think that simply being born and considered female should prevent anyone from serving in the military if they so choose to. Milunka Savic not only proved women were just as capable, but she was known for going across no man's land single handed and returning with dozens of prisoners. Her deeds if put to film would be considered impossible for the strongest and toughest of men. She earned every medal, and was courageous enough to go to war in her brothers place. She knew very well the dangers that would come from joining in WW1 after fighting heroically in the Balkan wars and still joined and SURVIVED through it. Something very very few people that were in the armies of Europe in 1914 managed to do. She advocated for women and men to be held to the same standard when it came to conscription and to fighting. She proved without a doubt that there is no reason to prevent women from fighting.

 

She was a hero through and through.

 

 

[Captain_Tass]

Good for them but I'm built different and if there ever is a draft that includes me I'll shoot my foot clean off before I go fight for any country, much less the one I left behind because it had no space for me or the one I've been living in for less than a year and have no other connections to.

 

 

(Apologies for the bluntness, war scares me and I'm blunt when I'm scared)

[Fraggle Underdark]

Here's an Army Captain who was the first woman to lead Rangers in combat (she is one also, of course). The Rangers are the elite strike force of the Army (Green Berets don't specialize in that, they're more for being behind enemy lines long term). She led Rangers in Afghanistan in 2019.

 

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-shaina-coss-75th-ranger-regiment/

[brbdogsonfire]

32 minutes ago, Life Of Tass said:

Good for them but I'm built different and if there ever is a draft that includes me I'll shoot my foot clean off before I go fight for any country, much less the one I left behind because it had no space for me or the one I've been living in for less than a year and have no other connections to.

 

 

(Apologies for the bluntness, war scares me and I'm blunt when I'm scared)

You should not apologize for not wanting to fight. I would fight in a defensive war, but never in an offensive war. My definition of defensive was is one in which my country was being invaded and not the Roman way of turning any war into a defensive war. You are not wrong for not being willing to fight.

 

19 minutes ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Here's an Army Captain who was the first woman to lead Rangers in combat (she is one also, of course). The Rangers are the elite strike force of the Army (Green Berets don't specialize in that, they're more for being behind enemy lines long term). She led Rangers in Afghanistan in 2019.

 

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-shaina-coss-75th-ranger-regiment/

I'll have to read through her story soon. Thank you!

[Guest]

oh wow, their gender is in question, so they aren't real women. 

 

/s so the mods know I'm being sarcastic not literal. lol. 

 

[Guest]

like, I totally am proud of them for knowing how they felt. And their expressing it is something that we can celebrate. But gender identity wasn't a concept until like the 60s/70:

 

(gender use over time)

it just feels wrong saying they are "women"... I was a woman for five years. Before that, I was a man. Not every transgender person feels this way... but... it's literally projecting gender onto someone to say they were "women"

 

makes me cringe.

 

they say in their journal they felt like a man? cool. I felt like a woman. But, I'm not a woman, not anymore. I'm nonbinary. You can't retroactively declare someone's transgender status when that identity didn't exist before hand. No one was transgender before.. let's see... 

the fifties. Before then, they were women who always felt like a man. No identity. and by women, I'm talking about AGAB of course, but even that wasn't a concept that existed. There was just women and men, with the exception of some cultures throughout history denoting genderqueer people.

 

some people like feeling like a woman and go do drag but identify... I don't know. I don't speak for them. If I did drag to feel like a woman, I would still be nonbinary. 

 

it just isn't accurate to call them "women"

[brbdogsonfire]

4 minutes ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

like, I totally am proud of them for knowing how they felt. And their expressing it is something that we can celebrate. But gender identity wasn't a concept until like the 60s/70:

 

(gender use over time)

it just feels wrong saying they are "women"... I was a woman for five years. Before that, I was a man. Not every transgender person feels this way... but... it's literally projecting gender onto someone to say they were "women"

 

makes me cringe.

 

they say in their journal they felt like a man? cool. I felt like a woman. But, I'm not a woman, not anymore. I'm nonbinary. You can't retroactively declare someone's transgender status when that identity didn't exist before hand. No one was transgender before.. let's see... 

the fifties. Before then, they were women who always felt like a man. No identity. and by women, I'm talking about AGAB of course, but even that wasn't a concept that existed. There was just women and men, with the exception of some cultures throughout history denoting genderqueer people.

Just clarifying your position is it wasn't possible to be transgender before 1950 because there was not a term used for it that was widely used?

 

14 minutes ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

No one was transgender before.. let's see... 

the fifties.

 

 If that's the case was it a conscious choice or were they born that way? Did people spontaneously just decide to become transgender after 1950? If they were born that way but born before the 1950s would they magically become transgender after the term was created? If it was a conscious choice then is being transgender not a natural part of the human population? If it relies on society overall accepting the term then I hate to break it to you but a large part of our society still doesn't accept its a real thing so does it not actually exist? If the first usage of the term marks when it is possible wouldn't your chart mean it was actually possible after roughly...1820?

 

I disagree with your assertion.

 

It's like saying there was no such thing as a virus before we knew what a virus is. It's a natural thing and simply lacking a term for it does not make it not exist. 

 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, brbdogsonfire said:

it wasn't possible to be transgender before 1950 because there was not a term used for it

righto. Who are we to assume their fucking gender? the concept of identifying as a gender is a modern... well... invention. it's not a inherent property of people. It's a social construct. And acting like identity isn't something that is formed by social colaboration and interaction is kind of silly. If I said "I identify as an attack helicopter" you would likely say "wow that's transphobic." becasue it is. But honestly I think it's ironic and funny. Just like how certain derogatory words are reclaimed by the people it denotes.... it's a construct. the meaning of our words exist because other people use it first. 

 

and thank god for that, and I'm a fuckin atheist lmao. 

 

but we can't retroactively apply an identity to someone who didn't identify that way. Can you say with any certainty the following:

 

"No tomboy feels like a man"

"No crossdresser feels like a women"

"only transmen will journal that they always felt like a man"

 

? I would expect these statements are clearly prejudiced and thus not correct to assert. Calling them "women" in quotes is the same thing. 

 

my gender and sexuality doesn't fit in any boxes 100%. So I'm just using umbrella labels. I'm nonbinary because I don't feel fully male nor fully female. I don't assume a sexual label because the discussion that exists doesn't talk about my experience in a clear consistent way. Some people would say I'm not asexual, others would say I am! 

 

trying to act like every person who journals something along the line of they feel like a man doesn't make them a trans man. There are other people who can feel like a man. 

 

I think honestly the gender discussion these days is designed to gender everyone queer as trans, and that isn't right. It's totally valid to feel like a woman but not identify as one. I know because that's my literal experience. Why are you saying they aren't women? in their day and age, that would be what thehy were. 

[Guest]

saying 

Quote

"women"

is basically saying that people aren't allowed to identify with their biological gender or that people who identify as their biological gender and for no other reason are wrong. Literally had someone in AVEN a few years back who was offended to be called "cisgender" because that wasn't his gender, in fact he didn't see gender as anything different from sex. because to him that is how he experiences the world. Like, transphobia is telling someone "you aren't allowed to identify as female" and he literally never said that. All he said was "I don't understand how someone can identify as a female when they have a dick" and he got warned for that lmao. It's sad.

[brbdogsonfire]

10 minutes ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

saying 

is basically saying that people aren't allowed to identify with their biological gender or that people who identify as their biological gender and for no other reason are wrong. Literally had someone in AVEN a few years back who was offended to be called "cisgender" because that wasn't his gender, in fact he didn't see gender as anything different from sex. because to him that is how he experiences the world. Like, transphobia is telling someone "you aren't allowed to identify as female" and he literally never said that. All he said was "I don't understand how someone can identify as a female when they have a dick" and he got warned for that lmao. It's sad.

How is it me saying they cannot identify as their biologic gender? In fact I mentioned 3 women in my initial post and specified 2 of them are women. I only added the quote and added a clarifying explanation in the initial post explaining why. You are coming off as extremely hostile to something and now are raging about someone saying something unrelated 2 years ago to defend it? 

 

I for one give 0 ducks about how any one person wants to identify. I simply said we should consider Joan of Arc as a he because of their writings describing their feelings on the matter. 

 

Please reread my initial post as you are asserting I am saying a lot in which I never said.

Edited May 12, 2022 by brbdogsonfire
Autocorre t turn any one into anyone, or I'm just bad at typing

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[ElloryJaye]

I almost hesitate to mention this due to the current state of world affairs, but by the midpoint of World War II, the Soviets had a lot of territory to defend and not nearly enough warm bodies to do it with, so the authorities allowed themselves to be persuaded to relax the gender restrictions on the military.  Results:  the all-female 588th Night Bomber Regiment (AKA the Night Witches), plus some quite successful female snipers, and a handful of women machine gunners and tank crew.  Pretty sure most of those were cis women.

[brbdogsonfire]

16 minutes ago, ElloryJaye said:

I almost hesitate to mention this due to the current state of world affairs, but by the midpoint of World War II, the Soviets had a lot of territory to defend and not nearly enough warm bodies to do it with, so the authorities allowed themselves to be persuaded to relax the gender restrictions on the military.  Results:  the all-female 588th Night Bomber Regiment (AKA the Night Witches), plus some quite successful female snipers, and a handful of women machine gunners and tank crew.  Pretty sure most of those were cis women.

Yes and there were calls from many women at the beginning of the USSR to allow them into the armed forces something thay was always promised to them by soviet leadership but never granted until it got desperate. The commisar that led the Night Witches is an amazing woman. Women have always wanted to be able to defend their homelands and fight along side men. There are stories of spartan women reinforcing the spartan men as their reserve during an attack on Sparta in a desperate moment. The Greek general pyrus was killed because a group of women threw rocks from the rooftops as the men fought down in the streets. There is a lot of historical evidence that women are just as willing to fight as men if only they were allowed to.

 

I am not sure if you meant the ciswomen comment towards me as I established in my initial post 1 of the women in my list was possibly trans but not the other 2.

Edited May 12, 2022 by brbdogsonfire

[ElloryJaye]

35 minutes ago, brbdogsonfire said:

I am not sure if you meant the ciswomen comment towards me as I established in my initial post 1 of the women in my list was possibly trans but not the other 2.

That was just intended to short-circuit a continuation of that branch of the argument, so not aimed at anyone specific.

 

The sad coda to the story of the female Soviet veterans from WWII is that, as I understand it, many of them never received what should have been due to them.  They were expected to quietly retreat back into the life of an average civilian woman and had to fight for recognition and veterans' benefits.

[SithLord]

2 hours ago, Burgundy Ashe said:

oh wow, their gender is in question, so they aren't real women. 

 

/s so the mods know I'm being sarcastic not literal. lol. 

 

Can we not derail this thread to be about gender? @brbdogsonfire was just pointing out a famous person considered a woman by history who was potentially trans. 

We're talking about history and praising their bravery and actions, so do we have to be offended by a thread meant to praise those ignored in most history classes?

[brbdogsonfire]

Just now, ElloryJaye said:

That was just intended to short-circuit a continuation of that branch of the argument, so not aimed at anyone specific.

 

The sad coda to the story of the female Soviet veterans from WWII is that, as I understand it, many of them never received what should have been due to them.  They were expected to quietly retreat back into the life of an average civilian woman and had to fight for recognition and veterans' benefits.

It's unfortunate that is the norm from my understanding. As you said they had some truly amazing snipers who were women, machine gun teams that were women, and pilots who were women. You bring up a great addition to this topic. As I understand it the female snipers tended to be better than their male counterparts when it came to waiting without moving for days. The Russian people are not evil and despite the war in Ukraine I don't buy for a moment that we shouldn't honor them. 

 

Who knows how many women have fought in the past. How many have done glorious deeds that were attributed to men. How many men have stolen Valor from women when they were discovered? The part of me that loves history cannot help but feel a terrible sense of lose at not being able to honor the women that fought and bled for their homes. 

 

 

[SithLord]

1 hour ago, ElloryJaye said:

(AKA the Night Witches

Required Sabaton animated story video: 

Spoiler

 

And Sabaton History videos explaining a bit more of the actual history: 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[SithLord]

There was this badass Chinese pirate queen named Zheng Yi Sao who led over a thousand pirates and a pirate empire. She wasn't exactly a soldier but she was a badass fighter who managed to die peacefully after having her men pardoned by the government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_Yi_Sao

Video:

Spoiler

 

 

[brbdogsonfire]

5 hours ago, - 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖌𝖌𝖑𝖊𝕽𝖔𝖈𝕶 - said:

Here's an Army Captain who was the first woman to lead Rangers in combat (she is one also, of course). The Rangers are the elite strike force of the Army (Green Berets don't specialize in that, they're more for being behind enemy lines long term). She led Rangers in Afghanistan in 2019.

 

https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-shaina-coss-75th-ranger-regiment/

What a badass! And she is utterly humble about it contributing her success to everyone but herself. She seems like the definition of a great leader.