What do you say to someone who wants to kill themselves

[Damaris]

I firmly believe that suicide, except in the case of terminal illness, is NOT something that a sane, mature individual would even contemplate.

[prepare for rant]

And I firmly believe that's ridiculous. Every day, hundreds, thousands, milllions of people who are very much sane and mature contemplate it. Perhaps they don't dwell on it for weeks or take steps toward it, but that doesn't make it less real or reasonable. I think suicide is one perfectly reasonable option for a person in unsatisfactory conditions to consider, and only moreso the worse the conditions become (not the only option, but certainly an option).

As for contributing to society and the responsibilities of the emotionally mature, I think that's complete poo [edited for younger readers]. Society is thrust upon us; we are forced into it and simply try to conform enough to exist within it. I wasn't born into a society, I was born into a family, and that family constitutes the only humans on the face of this planet who can rightfully place any obligations on me. My neighbors can get bent, right along with my boss and the mayor and the cashier at the freaking bank. I'll try to stay out of their way and as long as they try to stay out of mine, I think that's all "society" can expect of us. Christ, it's a wonder we're all not a bunch of mass murderers running around, all the poo that's thrust upon us.

[end rant]

And now back to your regularly scheduled poo...

[TheBlueGreenie]

Well I think you are making too big of a deal of what GBRD143 said. Its obvious that she was speaking in generalities.

Of course we all contemplate suicide once in awhile like after a bad day. You have an inner monologue where you toy with the idea of killing yourself but after a good night's sleep you wake up the next morning and think what was that all about. But that shows that a person wasn't in the right frame of mind. Cracking under pressure and or the dissappointment associated with a crushing personal defeat often makes people temporarily insane.

As for the mature part of that statement how many of us have lapses in maturity. I sometimes get giddy when I am standing at the edge of a tall mountain or the ledge of a skyscraper. Even though jumping would lead to an inevitable death just for a moment there I am always curious about what it would be like to jump. Its not that I am suicidal I just think "Man that would be really cool" well the falling would be really cool the landing not so much.

[alucard]

Of course we all contemplate suicide once in awhile like after a bad day. You have an inner monologue where you toy with the idea of killing yourself but after a good night's sleep you wake up the next morning and think what was that all about.

'contemplate' is NOT the right word for what you describe. :!:

[Nugan]

In the majority of cases, people who threaten suicide are suffering from low self-esteem and feeling unimportant, so they do it in order to get attention and/or to manipulate others into going along with their wishes. They just don't have enough "people" skills to come up with any other methods.

Or, perhaps, they legitimately feel trapped in a situation to which they see no other escape but suicide. I think that assuming that someone who is speaking about suicide is being dishonest or manipulative is very much, to use a cliché, a "blame the victim" approach. It is often far easier, when presented with someone with real problems that do not have an easy or convient solution, to place the blame on the individual suffering as a result of the problem. This mentality is often used against the poor as well. Although many suicidal people do indeed want, or perhaps need, the attention and concern of others, that doeas not mean that they mention suicide to get others to "go along with their wishes." I've talked with a number of suicidal people, and I've yet to meet one who was simply using suicidal threats as a bartering tool. Every suicidal person that I have met have felt honestly, hopeless ensnared in an unpleasent situation from which they could not escape. Whether they were actually, from an objective viewpoint, trapped is debatable, but they all felt trapped, and there was nothing dishonest or manipulative about their belief that there was no other escape.

Another problem is that people who are already mentally unstable and manipulative enough to threaten suicide are sometimes also histrionic enough to go through with it if the threat doesn't get the results that they want - and out of nothing more than self-pity and misplaced spite! They tend to be focused on themselves and their own feelings more than others (again - lack of "people" skills), so they don't really think about the long-term effects that a suicide has on the survivors - or, if they do think of it, they don't care.

Or, maybe, sometimes the honest, legitimate pain of depression and the oppressive forces of life become so absolutely unbearable that, no matter how much you love or care about your family or friends, you no longer have the emotional or, even, physical strength to continue living. The absolute, devouring pain of extreme depression can make even those with exceptional "people" or communication skills and deep respect for their family and friends surrender. Yes, perhaps it is still a selfish move, but I think it's unfair to portray victims of suicide as spitiful, self-pitying narcissists. Perhaps some are, but most are not. Most are simply so overwhelmed by the apparent hopelessness of their condition that they feel they cannot continue living. (I'd like go through a collection of suicide notes and count how many times the word "sorry" is used. I imagine it is used often.)

And what would I do if I knew someone who was threatening suicide? Well, as someone who has threatened suicide in the past and who has had friends who have threatened suicide, the best advice I can give is to try to relate to them. Talk to them, listen to their problems, tell them your own, and, above all, do not allow yourself to appear judgmental. Don't try to offer them a lot of advice, that only makes people who are already feeling inadequate feel like they have made more mistakes. Don't panic. Don't give orders. If you can make someone who is suicidal feel that they are not flawed, not alone, and that their thoughts aren't freakish or wrong, then you may not have rescued them, but you have probably made them feel that their situation is less severe and that they are less isolated.

Edit:

I had forgotten that there was another post that I wanted to respond to.

I think this is why suicide is more common among teenagers and young or not-so-young adults - many of whom may be legally adult, but not yet matured mentally or emotionally. They are still capable of believing that there is no reason to be considerate of others.

As I said above, I think that there is much more to suicide than a simple lack of concideration. I don't think most suicides are selfish so much as overwhelmed.

A big part of adulthood is realizing that we DO have a responsibility to others. That one trait is the single biggest sign of emotional maturity.

Sometimes it is hard for adults to look back and to remember just how perfectly appropriate it once felt to say "Me first", and to believe that such an idea was justified. That part of childhood, once left behind, is not pleasant to revisit once you realize how wrong it was.

Perhaps, but I think our foremost responsibility to others is not to pass judgment on them. It is also a form of selfishness to attempt to hold others responsible for circumstances they could not control. It is a form of childishness to blame others for their suffering, like children who cannot understand that senseless tragedies, such as divorce or the death of a parent, occur and thus blame those left behind for the loss. I'm not a Christian, but when Christ preached against judging others, I think he was absolutely right.

[Hallucigenia]

We seem to be only talking about suicide either as a manipulative tool or as an escape from unbearable pain.

I'm sure those exist, but what about people who honestly feel (even for a moment) that they do not deserve to live, and that the world would be better without them?

Such feelings are presumably mistaken, but would you call them "selfish"?

[Pobblebonk]

I don't suppose there's any direct connection between asexuality and depression, and likely not an indirect one either. There are a lot of depressives on AVEN, but is that because AVEN caters to asexuals or because AVEN is, essentially, a support group? Asexuals who feel they have difficulty with being asexual or who want advice are being selected for. Those of us who originally came here simply out of curiosity as to what the site had to offer appear to be a minority.

As for what to say to people who are contemplating suicide, my first thought was to tell them "don't". This may not, however, be the advice you were after.

Phil

[TheBlueGreenie]

Of course we all contemplate suicide once in awhile like after a bad day. You have an inner monologue where you toy with the idea of killing yourself but after a good night's sleep you wake up the next morning and think what was that all about.

'contemplate' is NOT the right word for what you describe. :!:

Geez Louise, well, then what IS the RiGhT woRD fOr iT, Alucard? See I can misappropriately stress words too. Hmph I swear some people are in desperate need of a sunshine enema.

[Wolf X Omega]

I often find myself wanting to die, but not because i think my life sucks, but because I see no point in living, We'll all die anyway someday, And even though i have a kinda insane sense of humor, I am sane, more sane than most of the people I talk with.

That doesn't mean I'll kill myself though, that just means I wish for my death to come faster than to have to wait 60 years to get it. I see no point In Living that much.

[alucard]

Of course we all contemplate suicide once in awhile like after a bad day. You have an inner monologue where you toy with the idea of killing yourself but after a good night's sleep you wake up the next morning and think what was that all about.

'contemplate' is NOT the right word for what you describe. :!:

Geez Louise, well, then what IS the RiGhT woRD fOr iT, Alucard? See I can misappropriately stress words too. Hmph I swear some people are in desperate need of a sunshine enema.

Something that synonymous with "toy with the idea" obviously :roll:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/c/c0597600.html

'contemplate' appears to be much too serious to be used in the way you did... as far as this dictionary is concerned anyway, won't you agree?

[xBlackxRainx]

I think this is why suicide is more common among teenagers and young or not-so-young adults - many of whom may be legally adult, but not yet matured mentally or emotionally. They are still capable of believing that there is no reason to be considerate of others.

While suicide may be one of the leading causes of teenage death, adolescents are not the age group with the most suicides. The elderly and those over 65 years old are the most likely to commit suicide, the older they get the more the likelihood soars. But teens who commit suicide are seen as more of a tragedy (since they have "potential"), and are given more attention.

We are born into this world against our will, we are loved and take that responsibility of being loved (occasionally) against our will. So thus we have no choice but to submit to it, for otherwise we are selfish, and irresponsible? At what point do we live for ourselves or live for others, and which makes the better life? To play devil's advocate, those who love someone open themselves to pain, it is another opportunity to feel loss, be rejected, and/or be manipulated. People make investments in relationships fully knowing that they can be hurt. So why if one person doesn't feel love for all those who have given them love against that person's will, does that person have a responsibility to those people who openly took that risk?

[alucard]

What xBlackxRainx said. :twisted:

[KAGU143]

I'm not going to continue with this thread very much more, aside from watching it, since it really isn't helping anybody, but there is one very important thing that I would like to mention.

I prefaced my statement with the exceedingly crucial phrase "In the majority of cases,"

A majority is anything over 50%. It might be only 51%. It does NOT mean ALL cases.

I use this writing style because it is quite literally impossible to talk about human beings both accurately and concisely.

For the sake of brevity, I usually refer to the situation which applies to the majority. When I do so I will also include a comment to explain that that IS, in fact, what I am doing.

I am aware of the high suicide rate among seniors, but that is why I included the reference to terminal illness as well as to sanity. Some of the effects of aging can profoundly affect brain function, and the loss of one's social support network can lead to severe depression.

I believe that those with severe depression should be included in the "not quite sane" group, and that would be regardless of their age. One of the most insiduous effects of depression is that it blinds peoples' ability to see the alternatives to their given situation. Those alternatives might already be known to them, but the reduction in their neurotransmitters can prevent their brains from making the connections needed to recognize them and put them into effect.

A depressed person isn't quite in their "right" (ie: fully functioning) mind.

-GB

[alucard]

One of the most insiduous effects of depression is that it blinds peoples' ability to see the alternatives to their given situation.

How exactly is this limited to depression? Love does that too and so does anger. What kind of alternatives is one supposed to see, btw?

Those alternatives might already be known to them, but the reduction in their neurotransmitters can prevent their brains from making the connections needed to recognize them and put them into effect.

... the workings behind this were still not entirely understood, the last I heard... and seeing how "normal" people are in no hurry to radically put whatever-alternatives-they-might-have in effect and turn their own lives upside down, I wouldn't expect any such thing of depressed people either.

A depressed person isn't quite in their "right" (ie: fully functioning) mind.

:lol: Who ever is?

[TheBlueGreenie]

Something that synonymous with "toy with the idea" obviously :roll:

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/c/c0597600.html

'contemplate' appears to be much too serious to be used in the way you did... as far as this dictionary is concerned anyway, won't you agree?

So what you are saying is that you aren't smart enough to have an answer for this but instead you just retort with smug questions. No actually contemplate is the right word for this cause all I do is think about it - its not like I tie a noose or write a suicide note. All I am saying is that when something terrible happens in your life like losing your job or losing a loved one it is very common for people to lose the deisre to live. They are obviously not in the right frame of mind when this happens but it doesn't mean that they are seriously considering suicide. There is a huge difference in being suicidal and losing the desire to live. Did that make sense or do I need to give you a link to a dictionary?

[alucard]

There is a huge difference in being suicidal and losing the desire to live. Did that make sense or do I need to give you a link to a dictionary?

I'm informed of the difference between the two; And that losing desire to live isn't limited to a possible side effect of shock after sudden "terrible" changes...

[Nugan]

I prefaced my statement with the exceedingly crucial phrase "In the majority of cases,"

A majority is anything over 50%. It might be only 51%. It does NOT mean ALL cases.

I noticed your phrasing, but I did not (and do not) feel that your statements are true of the majority (even of 51%) of those who threaten suicide. I think those that threaten suicide primarily or exclusively for the purpose of emotional manipulation or out of immaturity are a slim minority.

[mdw]

Dealing with someone who is thinking about suicide is the ultimate situation where you have to play it by ear. Unfortunately there is no guide since everyone is different, and sometimes your word (or your shoulder to cry on) can keep them tethered to this world. It's a horrible horrible position to be in.

[ily]

One of the most insiduous effects of depression is that it blinds peoples' ability to see the alternatives to their given situation.

How exactly is this limited to depression? Love does that too and so does anger. What kind of alternatives is one supposed to see, btw?

Alucard, I really don't think love/anger and depression are comparable. How many people (outside of stories) really attempt to kill themselves because they're in love (and if there is really a significant number of people that do this, then sources please ) Depression can be made a lot better, in many cases, with medication or therapy. Love is an emotion, depression is a chemical imbalance. In my experience (which is really all I can speak from), love doesn't make people insane. It can change them, but if it really makes them crazy, they probably already had some issues.

And I get your point; we're all a little crazy. I agree that when it comes to our mental states, it's really hard to find a "normal". But if you have a suicidal friend, how does that knowledge help them?

[alucard]

Alucard, I really don't think love/anger and depression are comparable. How many people (outside of stories) really attempt to kill themselves because they're in love

What does that have to do with them not being comparable? While neither of them influences people the same way, the point is that they make people blind to alternatives, and MAKE them (not that anyone accepts that as excuse) do things they'd not do were they free of this influence. I care little to what ends, as that appears beyond the point, as far as I'm concerned.

Love is an emotion, depression is a chemical imbalance.

Assuming that depression is a chemical imbalance, how is love not? Either way, people don't really have control of either.

In my experience (which is really all I can speak from), love doesn't make people insane. It can change them, but if it really makes them crazy, they probably already had some issues.

How nice of you to mention that, and while you're at it - how doesn't that apply to depressed people?

[EGAD!]

Normally I don't post on threads like this where everyone is so heavily invested in proving their point but I'm bored and this interests me.

Becoming suicidal, becoming depressed is a process. It takes time for someone to a place where they have no interest in continuing to live or have no zest for life and wallow in their misery.

Given what I said above it is very improbable to bring someone out of said state instantaneously it takes time and effort to bring someone out of depressive/suicidal state.

And given how we all have free will despite our best efforts the person in question may still decide to kill themselves. And should that happen we have to recognize that it ultimately was their decision.

And on many points I have to agree with Alucard. Seriously suddenly when we become adults at a certain age we are mature...? Really? I wonder what then you would call miserable bastards who feed off of making other people's lives hellish either deliberately and intentionally or as a consequence of how they make a living?

And since when are any of us completely sane? I'm afraid insanity comes in many forms and is not restricted to romantic love/infatuation or feeling depressed/suicidal. That is just the tip of the iceberg. I can't help but entertain the idea that a fair number of people who go into the military have a death wish.

[mdw]

Becoming suicidal, becoming depressed is a process. It takes time for someone to a place where they have no interest in continuing to live or have no zest for life and wallow in their misery.

Completely agree. This is when one has to realize that you can't fix their life, you can only help them, and even then only if they're willing to accept that help. It will still be a long and difficult process to help someone out of a pit as deep as the one they are in by the time they're contemplating suicide.

[Jean Grey]

In my experience (which is really all I can speak from), love doesn't make people insane.

Yes, but it can hurt and hurt very much and suicide can be considered a way to end the pain.

*relives her teenage years shuddering*

[kbrd143]

I have only one question for the people in this thread who are openly saying -- or even merely implying -- on an open board, where anyone can see it, that suicide is a good, valid option:

Would you be advocating such an act if you knew that your words would push someone who was teetering on the edge of a decision over the edge and would finally convince them to kill themselves?

Ideas and theories are all nice and valid -- as ideas and theories. But, we have a real situation on our hands, here: Zerick is telling us that someone is coming to him and is contemplating suicide. This isn't a theory debate in Philosophy class: this is real.

[alucard]

But, we have a real situation on our hands, here: Zeric is telling us that someone is coming to him and is contemplating suicide.

:? Are you sure you have the right thread? Didn't he ask, how to tell (suicidal) people to get over it? Being bothered by people who are "so depressed they say they want to kill themselves."

Would you be advocating such an act if you knew that your words would push someone who was teetering on the edge of a decision over the edge and would finally convince them to kill themselves?

You mean, openly arguing that suicide isn't wrong or anything? I see little to no problem with it.

It is, of course, most unfortunate if a person were to commit suicide without thinking carefully over and weighting possible alternatives to the current situation or simply being misinformed in some way, however I find it most impossible to find a valid position from which to determine if a person indeed hasn't stopped to think over it or hasn't been sufficiently informed, before deciding to carry out the act. (and this isn't really limited to suicide either) So...........................

[kbrd143]

:? Are you sure you have the right thread? Didn't he ask, how to tell (suicidal) people to get over it? Being bothered by people who are "so depressed they say they want to kill themselves."

Are you sure you read the enitire initial post?

I don’t know what to say to these strangers who I befriend on AVEN who say they want to die and talk about how they will do it.

I read that statement, made very close to the end of the post, as a very specific request. We learn here that people Zerick has met on AVEN have said to him that "they want to die". That means that people who are -- or who have recently been -- contemplating suicide might be reading this very thread right now.

Which is no big surprise; many people have shared that in this thread. I am simply questioning the ... morality of suggesting to someone who is in a suicidal frame of mind that killing oneself is perfectly fine and rational.

Furthermore, Zerick didn't seem, to me, to be asking for a discussion of the validity of suicide as a choice -- and for the momemt, I am not offering an opinion on the matter, one way or the other (though I do have an opinion, and a rather strong one, at that. . . .). In fact, as you pointed out, ze was asking for methods by which he could persuade people not to follow through with these dark thoughts.

This banter back and forth about the validity of suicide as a choice seems somewhat counter-productive, and certainly doesn't answer the basic question that Zerick asked. Although the debate is interesing, it isn't really applicable to the question at hand.

I didn't ask if you had a problem with openly arguing that suicide isn't wrong. (I can tell that you -- and a number of others -- don't!) I was attempting to point out that someone could possibly take such grand philosophy and make it a reality. And would any of the advocates of suicide in this thread be as comfortable in their position if someone from these boards decided to take his own life after reading the pro-arguments in this thread?

I was attempting to remind people of the actuality of this situation, and ask for a certain mindfulness of not only what is being said, but where and how it is being said, as well: AVEN is often a rather depressive place. And it is also filled with a great deal number of (highly intellient, but demonstrable) children who are, as such, extremely impressionable. To speak so blithely about pro-suicidal opinions in such a mixture of people seems ... ill-advised, at best.

Which is nothing that I am saying as an admin, or anything; this isn't "official". It is merely my personal opinion as a member of the boards and as a person with baggage of my own.

[alucard]

I am simply questioning the ... morality of suggesting to someone who is in a suicidal frame of mind that killing oneself is perfectly fine and rational.

I haven't really noticed that happening. As far as I'm concerned, the act itself is as "neutral" as any other...

Actually, it would quite amusing to see any act being defined as 'rational'... :P

I didn't ask if you had a problem with openly arguing that suicide isn't wrong. (I can tell that you -- and a number of others -- don't!) I was attempting to point out that someone could possibly take such grand philosophy and make it a reality. And would any of the advocates of suicide in this thread be as comfortable in their position if someone from these boards decided to take his own life after reading the pro-arguments in this thread?

Actually, that's exactly what I answered to.

(There are pro-arguments?) :shock: :?