Trying to understand sexual men

[Ninotschka]

After reading this:

A lot of women utterly fail to grasp how differently men are "wired" when it comes to sex drive. Most women are NOT visually dominated like many men are, so the idea of being incredibly aroused by nothing but the sight of something seems so unlikely that it is written off as a convenient excuse for bad conduct and not a genuine, involuntary reaction.

I realized that I'm obviously one of these women. So, I'd like to get an idea of what kind of behaviour/clothes/conversation/whatever might involuntarily get a guy who likes me aroused IN ORDER TO AVOID THOSE SITUATIONS.

This may sound like a stupid question, but as a woman AND someone with a very low sex drive (not completely asexual, though), sometimes I feel really cruel and guilty in those situations, and I'd like to learn how to deal with them...

[Busrider]

Short answer: Almost everything at least somebody

Really, it's close to unpredictable without knowing you and the scene you're hanging around with.

Professional slutty attire, like fully rigged table-/belly dancer can only be a rough guideline since who knows if your dude is already used to that? - Seeing it on TV doesn't count, since he must already have made it his dream, fitting into his moral system, in harmony with his goals. - Its like worshiping non sweet wine. People don't like it the first time, they need to get used to it. If he likes fishing and you're smiling out of a rubber boot/trouser combo reaching your nipples, better prepare yourself for another marriage proposal. - You get me? - Seeming to be the totally impractical princess can turn off.

Almost everything somehow connectable with women is probably somebody's fetish. Many fetishes are somehow restraining disadvantaging, but symbols /hints of male power or almost-keep-pace-fitness do the same job.

Take high heels, say vou were 5'10"; they'll turn the 5'6" dude off, 6'2" on and might leave 6'10" cold since you probably don't reach his eyelevel but become impractical slow.

Rule of thumb: neatly wrapped almost nudity has way more impact than full one.

I'm tempted to claim that sophisticated hairdos are respected more among females than somehow seductive.

Anything that can be mistaken as a seductive extra effort might be critical, but you might harvest comments like "poor thing, did you tumble into a box of watercolors?" on your make up too.

Body parts: Some people seem focused on boobs, others might not be. In general tight fitting attire might be a turn on, but of course some girls look way hoter in something else.

Avoid whatever earned serious compliments is the best advice I can imagine.

[scamper]

After reading this:

A lot of women utterly fail to grasp how differently men are "wired" when it comes to sex drive. Most women are NOT visually dominated like many men are, so the idea of being incredibly aroused by nothing but the sight of something seems so unlikely that it is written off as a convenient excuse for bad conduct and not a genuine, involuntary reaction.

I don't know where the original thread was taken from, but I have to take some issue with it.

While it may be true that technically speaking, a larger percentage of men respond to visual stimuli than women, and blah blah blah - this attitude that "men ar hard wired to want sex and be aroused by everything, and women just aren't like that" is incredibly patronizing to sexual women, and excuses a lot of bad behaviour in men that is in fact NOT EXCUSABLE.

Over the past few decades, women have fought long and hard to be recognized as somewhat equal partners in love, romance, sexuality, marriage, etc. And for the sexual women out there, the fact that they can acknowledge their own sexual needs without being stigmatized, treated like "sex fiends" or "sluts" is a BIG step in the right direction. And the fact that men can't get away with sexually assaulting women by claiming that the women were "asking for it" or that they "couldn't help themselves" is an even BIGGER step in the right direction as well. Let's not go backwards!

I'm all for giving tips to women who want to avoid sexually predatory men. But let's not give those men the excuse of biology for being jerks, please!

[Hallucigenia]

Scamper, I understand your concerns, and to a large extent, I share them. A couple nitpicks, thoug - you seem to be equating "hard-wired to be visually aroused" with "hard-wired to want sex in general", which I don't think is the case. Surely people (for example, certain sexual women) who aren't extremely visual can still have other things that turn them on a lot, and not be inferior or less sexual because of that.

And I don't think that either Greybird or Ninotschka (nice name, by the way) were claiming that the supposed visual nature of men excuses sexual assault or other bad behavior. It looks to me like they were simply trying to be nice to the men by not making them have to deal with spontaneous visual arousal all the time. As Busrider said, that may not really be possible, and it's certainly not a requirement before you have the right to be treated well by said men. But it might be nice anyway, for people who prefer not to be seen in a sexual light.

[Revenge of Rain]

Or just realize that you're more important than them and tell them to fuck off.

[Zane]

Being a sexual male, various things arouse me. In public its a pain to walk around, I feel guilty at times for the way my body reacts to some of things I see.

For every male it is different though. No two people are the same. So as for avoiding the situations...dress more conservatively would be my only advice. Girls wearing less is a turn on for more guys I know than it is a turn off. There really aren't all that many fix-all solutions for this problem.

[E.winEla]

Hahha, your prerogative here is quite humorous but totally understandable, Ninotschka.

What I do is dress fashionably casual, but I follow the philosophy of "Conceal, don't reveal." The more you reveal, the more visuals you are presenting to the public. The more visuals you present, the more likely you are to strike a chord (of sorts) in some sexual guys.

Now, concealing doesn't mean you have to dress like a nun (I certainly don't.), but just be reasonable about your clothing if you are really concerned about this. Don't wear things that cut off too low (tops) or too high (skirts) if the weather really doesn't call for it. Aim for a more casual look...so that during the day you don't look like you are ready for a night out.

...and even my night out attire is very conservative. I tend to cover everything, but the clothing that I use to cover it is usually very interesting. That's the trick. I cover all, but I like interesting shaped clothing, interesting fabrics, interesting combinations, etc...People will still compliment you on your outfit, but usually it will be other females. You don't get a bunch of guys leering at you or saying things that make you uncomfortable...at most they might just say "Hey, you look nice." in a casual, non-threatening way...and that's the way I like to keep it.

P.S. I'm not saying your concern isn't an important or serious one btw, because believe me it is. It just made me smile.

[scamper]

Scamper, I understand your concerns, and to a large extent, I share them. A couple nitpicks, thoug - you seem to be equating "hard-wired to be visually aroused" with "hard-wired to want sex in general", which I don't think is the case. Surely people (for example, certain sexual women) who aren't extremely visual can still have other things that turn them on a lot, and not be inferior or less sexual because of that.

And I don't think that either Greybird or Ninotschka (nice name, by the way) were claiming that the supposed visual nature of men excuses sexual assault or other bad behavior. It looks to me like they were simply trying to be nice to the men by not making them have to deal with spontaneous visual arousal all the time. As Busrider said, that may not really be possible, and it's certainly not a requirement before you have the right to be treated well by said men. But it might be nice anyway, for people who prefer not to be seen in a sexual light.

I agree to a large extent with your post as well. Really, the distinction I was trying to make was between:

a) Men being constantly aroused by visual stimuli because they can’t help it.

B) Men behaving badly toward women and using the fact that they’re visually oriented as an excuse.

In example a) I’d say the best course of action would be to avoid the situations in which this could happen. If you don’t want to be seen in a sexual light, then indeed changing the way you dress or behave in order to avoid being viewed sexually by random strangers is a good plan. However, I really wouldn’t call that “bad conduct”. Annoying to deal with, and perhaps unfortunate/uncomfortable, sure. But those men don’t mean any harm, they just can’t help being aroused.

In example B) I would be much more likely to say that yes, it does indeed constitute bad conduct. Just because a person responds to visual stimuli doesn’t mean they’re incapable of controlling their reactions. And in those cases, I wouldn’t advocate that women change their behaviour, because really they should be able to act freely without fear of harassment, and the onus should be on men not to do the harassing.

I think often a) and B) get mixed together with bad results. On the one hand, men get vilified for normal, involuntary reactions (like getting an embarrassing or ill-timed erection because of visual stimuli). On the other hand, their actual bad behaviour (like aggressively coming onto someone) gets excused as something they can’t help because of their wiring.

But again, I don't know what GBRD was initially referring to because I don't know where that first post came from, so I'm responding a bit out of context, probably.

[KAGU143]

My ears (erm ... fingers?) were burning.

That quote came from a thread in Musings and Rantings. The original topic was about G-strings and short skirts.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewt...ghlight=#661825

Anyway, I certainly do NOT think that men have a right to sexually assault a woman just because she dresses provocatively. However, the word "provocative" should be enough of a clue in and of itself.

Such clothing is INTENDED to "provoke" a reaction, and we all know that that reaction is NOT a sudden desire to balance the checkbook!

I believe that all people should be held accountable for their actions as well as any foreseeable results from those actions, and that includes women as well as men.

The vast majority of men are decent human beings, and will not attack a women who wears provocative clothes, even if they do become involuntarily aroused. They might make a lewd comment or a wolf whistle or something of that sort, but that will be the extent of it.

The problem comes from the small percentage of men who are NOT decent human beings. You can't tell who they are by looking at them, but you can rest assured that they are "out there" simply due to the law of averages.

They can appear to be as clean cut and well-mannered as any other guy under normal circumstances. The difference is that they blame the woman for their reaction and assume that she is publically "asking for it" if she is dressing in a provocative way. They see nothing at all wrong with giving her what they assume she is asking for.

Those few men can be extremely dangerous.

A woman who continues to dress provocatively once she is old enough to know how it affects some men has to consider herself at least partly responsible when she gets a reaction that she doesn't want. She knows that such a reaction is possible even if it isn't likely, and, despite that, she knowingly chooses to take the risk.

I liken her to an animal lover who believes that a bear probably won't attack them unless they provoke it, so they walk to within a few feet of it to take pictures.

Most of the time they're right, and they will be safe.

The last time they won't be.

Wearing revealing clothing around male strangers is not a very wise thing for a single woman to do. With a group of companions it isn't quite as dangerous, but I still question whether it is wise or not because scanty clothing is dangerous in more ways than one.

[OT]

I speak from firsthand experience; sun damage isn't pretty. It is cumulative and it will appear without fail approximately 20 years after the damage occurs. If you have a tan, it's already too late for that area of skin, but why make it worse than you have to? [/OT]

-GB

[Orbit]

Wearing revealing clothing around male strangers is not a very wise thing for a single woman to do. With a group of companions it isn't quite as dangerous, but I still question whether it is wise or not because scanty clothing is dangerous in more ways than one.

[OT]

It is also an assault on men by these thoughtless women. Many decent men who would never attack or say anything lewd do not wish to become involuntarily aroused because some woman wants sexual attention to feel pretty or important. But these innocent men must put up with short skirts, tight and.or low cut shirts and women who pretend they are doing nothing wrong.

That's not to say that women should cover up in burkas, but thoughtful considerations to the single and married sexual men around you is the sign of a decent, mature and caring woman.

[scamper]

Wearing revealing clothing around male strangers is not a very wise thing for a single woman to do. With a group of companions it isn't quite as dangerous, but I still question whether it is wise or not because scanty clothing is dangerous in more ways than one.

[OT]

It is also an assault on men by these thoughtless women. Many decent men who would never attack or say anything lewd do not wish to become involuntarily aroused because some woman wants sexual attention to feel pretty or important. But these innocent men must put up with short skirts, tight and.or low cut shirts and women who pretend they are doing nothing wrong.

That's not to say that women should cover up in burkas, but thoughtful considerations to the single and married sexual men around you is the sign of a decent, mature and caring woman.

Seriously?

I don't know... I can agree up to a point with the opinion that women who dress provocatively are putting themselves at risk because some men are incapable of controlling their reactions.

But to say that they're assaulting sexual men is going a bit far. I think in order to be considered a decent and mature adult man, you should be able to respond appropriately to the world around you, no matter what kinds of "temptations" it throws your way, sexual or otherwise.

[Revenge of Rain]

Men are rampaging uncontrollable sexual beasts, and it is the duty of women-folk to restrain them!

Or please no...

If I, as one of these sexual males, happen to get aroused because I see some attractive girl wearing practical summer clothing, then that's my own damned problem.

[Rose of the Emperor]

^Thank you!!!! *_*

Some of you really are making men sound like uncontrollable beasts and women sound like pieces of meaty-meat........ >_<

[KAGU143]

Only a tiny percentage, Rose. Most men are very decent human beings.

The sad thing is that it's the rotten ones who get the most publicity.

-GB

[Psyche]

Iunno. I don't think most men are decent OR indecent - I think there's a spectrum, with some nice guys and some horrible guys, but most neither. I mean, most men will probably catcall or hit on you, then refuse to go away. Most men, like most people, tend to forget that there are real people behind a pretty face. But on the flip side most men won't escalate to attempted rape, or even grabbing. At least not in most situations. I like to think this, anyway, though there are certainly exceptions. So... I'm not exactly being reassuring here, am I? :?

Anyway, the reason I barged in is that I've evolved a special tactic for this: I wear light, comfy women's clothes, and then I wear men's clothes over them. Most of the time I walk around with a men's shirt open and on my arms, like a jacket. When I start to get reactions I don't want (or when I need to work) I button up the men's shirt and I get treated like a professional. It's like magic.

Try hitting up Burlington Coat Factory or someplace similar - there are some nice shirts that look really good worn this way. If you think you're getting reactions because of the lower half of your body, you can tie the shirt around your waist and conceal any formfitting qualities of your pants/shorts/skirt. I have about a dozen men's shirts ranging from really plain (black and a bit dowdy) to really stylish (grey and purple diagonal stripes; white lacy thing that goes down to my knees that most guys wouldn't be caught dead in).

All this is to say that it may not fit with your personal sense of fashion, but if it does, it's worth a shot - it works really well for me and has done a lot to make me feel comfortable (you know, less like a piece of meat) when dealing with men.

[vikingo]

... get a guy who likes me aroused ...

Some people react to scents. So, be aware if you use perfumes.

[Fayetje]

... get a guy who likes me aroused ...

Some people react to scents. So, be aware if you use perfumes.

*nods* :shock:

Er, I'm not a man, but I agree that you are not going to cover all the bases no matter how hard you try to deflect sexual attention. Different men (and er...lesbians like myself) will be attractd to different women for different reasons. Generally I think you're safe if you dress conservatively, but the other day at work I was attracted to a woman in a baggy T-shirt and pajama pants. It was just her face that did it. o_O You never know sometimes!

[mdw]

As a sexual male, I just have to say be yourself and do what makes you happy because no matter what you do to make yourself not stand out there are going to be men who find you attractive. Just as there will always be men who don't find certain women attractive no matter how hard they try.

[VicariousScot]

As an asexual male, it really gets tedius, the involuntary reaction my bodies gives me at the sight of certain imagery (but it's never happened in public)...say a love scene in a film. Whilst I don't find it attractive at all or want to partake in it...my "best friend" has other ideas.

So whilst something may turn a man on at a subconscious level, it doesn't mean he's going to run after you ;)

[mdw]

So whilst something may turn a man on at a subconscious level, it doesn't mean he's going to run after you ;)

This applies just as much to sexual men, at least those of us with any decency at all.

[VicariousScot]

So whilst something may turn a man on at a subconscious level, it doesn't mean he's going to run after you ;)

This applies just as much to sexual men, at least those of us with any decency at all.

I know, it was a general comment ;)

[mdw]

ah, gotcha :D

[bbctv]

"It is also an assault on men by these thoughtless women. Many decent men who would never attack or say anything lewd do not wish to become involuntarily aroused because some woman wants sexual attention to feel pretty or important. But these innocent men must put up with short skirts, tight and.or low cut shirts and women who pretend they are doing nothing wrong.

That's not to say that women should cover up in burkas, but thoughtful considerations to the single and married sexual men around you is the sign of a decent, mature and caring woman."

sorry, i'm an idiot and i can't get the "quote" to work...

i, as a male human being, have got to TOTALLY disagree with this. women are not one bit at fault, even if they are running around naked. guys, go jack off. nobody is making you have sex, no matter how arousing the scene, and nobody is making you say anythinbeing lewd. the idea that women have ANY duty to do ANYTHING in this area, as if men were not TOTALLY responsible for lewd or indecent comments is just, well, something i've gotta disagree VERY strongly with.

not that i say that it's wrong for men to find women sexually attractive and politely express interest, though i think complimenting someone's appearance is something you shouldn't do to strangers in general, due to the sexualized nature of society these days it's risky.

women are under no moral duty to do ANYTHING to prevent the sexual arousal of men around them any more than we should expect stores to somehow HIDE merchandise so as not to tempt people to steal it. i mean, walk into a store where you've gotta ask somebody at a counter to see any products? men should bear most of the responsibility here.

as far as dressing goes, go for being pretentiously fashionable; you'll sort of get a different effect, since likely you'll de-sexualize your appearance, you'll also look weird and artistic, which will sort of put off a lot of guys who would perhaps be lewd, or just likely to ask women out driven by sexual desire. i mean, keep most of your body covered, but just look really weird, thrift stores are great places for this kind of clothes, lots of loud colors, badly mismatched plus excessive accessories sort of works. think peggy guggenheim. just "conservative" might still sort of look sexual to some guys, but this is sort of a different tactic.

also, if you think most guys are harmless, read shere hite's studies and books.

[Azurite]

As I am a member of the goth culture, I use to dress from very concealing (long, flowing gowns reaching up to the neck) to very revealing (snug latex pants, catsuits, corsets) simply because I like to try out many things in fashion. I have a strong sense of aesthetics and want to apply that to myself, just the same way as I pay attention to a picture I'm painting.

That's not meant to arouse anybody... of course it does sometimes, but then I always truthfully respond that I am already engaged, and furthermore not interested anyway, if it's an idiot who thinks it doesn't matter that I am engaged.

[John Bayko]

[...] So, I'd like to get an idea of what kind of behaviour/clothes/conversation/whatever might involuntarily get a guy who likes me aroused IN ORDER TO AVOID THOSE SITUATIONS.

This may sound like a stupid question, but as a woman AND someone with a very low sex drive (not completely asexual, though), sometimes I feel really cruel and guilty in those situations, and I'd like to learn how to deal with them...

Here's my understanding of it in an abstract way. I'll talk about men with women, it would be pretty similar for gay men. I'll also ignore physical attributes, since that's not what you asked about.

The most sexual situation to be in is, obviously, actually engaged in (consentual) sex. To get to that point there is a progression from "not sex' to "sex". It can take many paths, but generally involves a few things, such as getting undressed, personal interest in them, positive attitude, and display of sex drive. The starting point is generally whatever point among the average that they normally see (or experience) that they first start to take notice. So grandmothers would be excluded from this, but maybe slightly plain looking/dressed women close to his own age would be part of the starting group.

So, anything that is on the progression from the "no sex" starting point to the "sex" end point is sexy. Or things (like various kinds of attitude) which indicate that the progression will be fairly short. Clothes that he thinks display an interest in sex are sexy, even if they're not revealing (think slutty T-shirt slogans), because interest in sex is part of the progression towards sex. An interest in conversation with him could be seen as part of that progression. If a woman is already on that progression to sex (compared to the "no sex" average woman), he's going to find her sexy immediately, and the quickest way to perceive that is visually - clothing, hair, makeup, and appearance.

But not everyone perceives things the same way, and men who talk with women a lot and don't have sex with many would probably think of a deep conversation as just a conversation, not flirting (or foreplay). Or rather, it would depend on the conversation topic ("Want to hear the wildest thing I've ever done with another girl on a trampoline while nude?").

Relationships are also usually part of a progression to sex, so they'll usually find their girlfriend/wife sexy even without a lot of the other things. Most men find a girlfriend/wife waking up in their bed very sexy, with mussed up hair and no makeup and marks from sleeping on sheet wrinkles, even though if they thought about it, the women would mostly feel very unsexy at that point.

I think this is also part of why many men actually find pictures of women in lingerie sexier than naked. Without a way to interact with her, the only way to judge her interest in sex (a very important part of the progression) is what she's chosen to express her current state of mind with, clothing-wise. And lingerie expresses that more than just being naked. Actually, studies of eye movements show that when shown pictures of naked women, men usually spend most time initially looking at their faces, because there is no other way to tell her sexual interest (it's easy to see a man's sexual interest when naked).

I don't know if that helps you much, there's not much that's specific there. But I don't think there's any sort of formula like "blue purse" = "sexy" or "sweat pants" = "not sexy" (I think the opposite, actually).

[rosalie]

[...] "Want to hear the wildest thing I've ever done with another girl on a trampoline while nude?"

I love this example of conversation topic!!!!

[John Bayko]

[...] "Want to hear the wildest thing I've ever done with another girl on a trampoline while nude?"

I love this example of conversation topic!!!!

Makes me wonder: just how many times has this situation come up anyway?

[mdw]

Right about the moment you realize that whoever is speaking these words is a total whore and you want to get away in hopes that she doesn't have anything transmittable via air.

[mouri_shin]

Right about the moment you realize that whoever is speaking these words is a total whore and you want to get away in hopes that she doesn't have anything transmittable via air.

ahahaha!! i know i've thought that! XD and you really do give them that disgusted look and step back and they look at you funny XDDD

[rimmer]

Or just realize that you're more important than them and tell them to fuck off.

Exactly what I would tell you R of R, to F off