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ChildOfTheLight
I can't remember - it was discussed in a multi-avenite group chat session, but since that is what led to neuro suggesting the new title maybe he can recall

I'd be very curious to know why. Neurovore hasn't been very active recently though, so it'll be hard to ask him unless you have his contact info. It could be that people were brainstorming anyway, even though the old one was perfectly satisfactory. In any case, old title or new, could we please get the definition of asexuality right up front and centre? I'd do it myself if I had the software; I really do feel that it's of critical importance.

I think that's a good idea. We'll hae to see how the pictures need to be re-arranged around it first - Because of the heteronormity isue I think its important that COTL's picture still remain prominent on the front of the pamphlets

Yeah, I theoretically represent transgendered asexuals, apparently. I think I have better pictures of me in a skirt (also, ones in which you can clearly see that that's what I'm wearing) by now, though, so I might want to replace that one.

We should be able to get something on there to make it look less like we're pushing straight relationships that just happen not to include sex. We must have some pictures somewhere of two guys or two girls hugging, or something.

Also, someone was complaining about the lack of racial diversity. If Dargon is OK with having his picture on the pamphlet, that would help with that. We could also probably add a picture of someone who is Asian (any of Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.)

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deladangerous

dela's thoughts:

(I have worked in design and copy editing, so that makes my opinion super valid or something)

(also it's nothing personal, just tryin' to help out)

It's all well and good to have somebody who's "transgender" represented... but you coulda fooled me. It's not really apparent, just from looking at the picture, that there's anything in particular about him.. and to be honest, I feel like the pictures on the front of the pamphlet --save for the one of Winter and Hu-- were kinda awkward choices. They look like anybody's old 'backyard' kinda shots, and especially in the one with Ajay and Trip, it's got me thinkin'... "why is that there? what on earth are they doing? what's that got to do with asexuality?"

In this case, it'd be good to use portraits, or otherwise posed shots. The ones in the old pamphlets had some kind of uniformity to them-- all were of good quality, the same size, and mostly the same angle, even.. and I thought it looked great, not to mention doing it that way meant not needing any names or screen names (screen names being a bad idea, I think, for reasons already stated by others) to associate words and thought with real humans. Plus it looked more professional. Professional, I think, is really what we should be going for.

The pictures of KBRD/GBRD and Hu/Winter that were used (apart from the one on the front) had to be resized so much, and I find that to be awkward as well. They can hardly be seen, and I think it's a bit strange to use Hu and Winter twice, as well as Ajay twice. I understand that you had a hard time getting pictures together for this, but it doesn't necessarily have to look like you did.

Yes, it would be nice to show some non-hetero couples, but I think that if we didn't have the right pictures for that, it could still be verbally clarified that one can also be gay-a or bi-a.

Agreeing that the masturbation talk should have no place in this. Most of us don't really like being asked that kind of question, and it's crossing a line into tactlessness by bringing it up in a pamphlet like this. Kinda TMI, y'know. Yes, it's a question that comes up when people first hear of us, but as spinneret said, it can be addressed in a better way, by speaking of attraction versus arousal.

Also agreeing with sonofzeal about how we're coming off kind of cultish/fundie with these. The old version made us seem more... human, more normal.

..Really, though kind of outdated, the old pamphlets were very nice in many ways.. Perhaps instead of trying to completely reinvent them, we should try more to just.. update them, if you will.

plus I liked the purple.

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The racial diversity issue is a big one for me, too. However, I also know that no AVENites of color responded to the call for pictures. This is going back to the days before the PT, when this idea was floated for the very first time. If any such photos have since been offered, I am certainly not aware of it.

Regarding the lack of orientational diversity (look at me! I just made up a phrase!), has anyone thought of using a meetup photo? I know that the Portland meetup in which Nancy was involved was all female -- and included Nancy and Spinnerette, for two. Others were there, of course. With the exception of JokeyFairbobbin, the Dallas meetup was all male. Maybe we could use one of these photos? If not, perhaps I have the means to get a photo of two male AVENites for use in the pamphlet. In fact, I know I do. I have some photos of Chris and myself lying around the house that would fit this bill perfectly. I honestly didn't know that this was a need, and I am very glad that someone pointed it out. So, we now have a perfectly good set of photos featuring two men to use in the pamphlets, and perhaps a few others from which to choose, as well!

I am also glad that Son of Zeal mentioned the Christianity/Abstinence angle. This didn't occur to me; however, looking at the pamphlets, I can see where one could get that impression. I have been thinking about the second section on the third column on the first page titled "What Asexuality Isn't?" This title has irked me quite a bit, as it is neither a complete thought, nor a question. I was imagining that it could be replaced with something which read:

"Asexuality isn't:

*Celebacy or abstinence

*Repressed sexuality

*A physical or psychological disorder

*Unnatural"

Or something similar. I realize that this doesn't ask a question, which seems to be the style of the rest pamphlet, but it could be arranged in such a way that it blends in a little better with the previous section.

(I also have issues with the grammar and phrasing of the section directly below this one, although I feel that the content there is fine.)

*While we are on the subject of content, however, I should state categorically that I am extremely offended at the inclusion of a section on masturbation in these pamphlets. I agree that this is a very commonly asked question, and this was the reason for its inclusion here. However, I feel that it is an extremely tasteless question and I have always, for two years of doing interviews, refused to answer it. It would be considered bad manners to ask a homosexual what he or she gets up to behind closed doors; likewise, it would also be rude to ask your heterosexual neighbors the same thing. Therefore, it is just as rude to ask us about it, and I do not think we should encourage this kind of boorish inquisitiveness by including it in an official publication.

I also object to the presence of my photograph next to this section. It embarrasses me greatly -- especially since the placement of my photo goes contrary to the placement of photos throughout the rest of the pamphlet. The photographs of other AVENites all appear below the block of text which refers to them. The photo of Nancy and myself, however, appears above the block of text which we are meant to illustrate. Given, though, that all other photos appear below and the fact that there is a solid line between our photo and the text on relationships, I believe that the distinct impression that is given is that Nancy and myself are two of the asexuals who masturbate -- and, presumably that would be the reason why were are smiling. . . . :wink: Seriously, if I have told the New York Times, ABC News and NPR that I would NOT go there, I am not about to give my permission to AVEN to go there.

*Dela kind of beat me to this one, so I am kinda' agreeing with her. But, while I am agreeing, I have one or two other points to make. . . . :D

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Alright, I agree with much of what is being said here. As zeal said, I don't want these pamphlets to appear like we're saying "hey, we're ok because we're pretty close to being heterosexual" or anything...

Well anyway- my one suggestion is that maybe we don't have to use pictures. I know a lot of people feel that they give a human element to the pamphlets, but they seem sort of troublesome to me, and I don't think they're absolutely necessary...

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ChildOfTheLight
Well anyway- my one suggestion is that maybe we don't have to use pictures. I know a lot of people feel that they give a human element to the pamphlets, but they seem sort of troublesome to me, and I don't think they're absolutely necessary...

If we really can't get them to work, I suppose so, but part of the appeal of having pictures is that it instantly disproves the notion that asexuals are just ugly people who can't get any.

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The racial diversity issue is a big one for me, too. However, I also know that no AVENites of color responded to the call for pictures. This is going back to the days before the PT, when this idea was floated for the very first time. If any such photos have since been offered, I am certainly not aware of it.

We have an Indian pictured on the front cover of the current design

Regarding the lack of orientational diversity (look at me! I just made up a phrase!), has anyone thought of using a meetup photo? I know that the Portland meetup in which Nancy was involved was all female -- and included Nancy and Spinnerette, for two. Others were there, of course. With the exception of JokeyFairbobbin, the Dallas meetup was all male. Maybe we could use one of these photos? If not, perhaps I have the means to get a photo of two male AVENites for use in the pamphlet. In fact, I know I do. I have some photos of Chris and myself lying around the house that would fit this bill perfectly. I honestly didn't know that this was a need, and I am very glad that someone pointed it out. So, we now have a perfectly good set of photos featuring two men to use in the pamphlets, and perhaps a few others from which to choose, as well!

Thanks. However, please note that we will also need Chris to send us his permission before any photo of you and him can be included. Jesh and I posted several times and even privately approached people and after 2 months, we still were pretty much right where we had started, but perhaps now that people have become comfortable with their pictures appearing in the less permanent publication AVENues and they have seen that nothing bad happened to them as a result, we might be able to entice more people tp particiapte

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bard of aven
Besides all of the other points which have already been mentioned, I am quite dismayed by the change done to AVEN's logo. As it is portrayed on the new pamphlet it is completely meaningless. It's nothing more than a triangle with a bar of shading across it.

I think you are commenting on the old version of the pamphlets (Boa's design that was distributed about three years ago) instead of the new version. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying*

I have no recollection of being involved in the design of that.

boa

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ne common criticism brought up by members is that we only show white people on the pamphlets. However, even though we tried to acitvely solicit minority photos, Ajay is the only non-white avenite we know of who is willing to appear in the pamphlets.

i'm not try to stir up trouble, but i thought i should mention that i consider myself not white/bi-racial. i of course didn't expect you or others to know that, but since we're talking diversity, i figured i should throw that out there.

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Thanks Jesh and I posted several times and even privately approached people and after 2 months, we still were pretty much right where we had started, but perhaps now that people have become comfortable with their pictures appearing in the less permanent publication AVENues we ...

and I'll have to finish this tonight. The conference is starting

The only calls I remember seeing were for couples. For some odd reason, it never occurred to me that "couple" could also refer to "couple of friends". . . .

And, realistically, the conference is starting in two weeks. In this electronic age, it doesn't take two weeks to print flyers -- especially if they are being printed locally, as it is my understanding that these are. We do have time to refine the design.

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My humble, non-project-team suggestion:

Merge the design (color & font scheme) of the new pamphlet with the content and layout of the old one (updating the details like number of members, of course). Nothing new has to be composed, just combine elements from both. The new one looks a lot more professional but I think the old one represents AVEN better, and doesn't have the masturbation section which I agree is inappropriate.

And here's a hi-res PNG triangle I made:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/sideshowratt/aven.png

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The only calls I remember seeing were for couples. For some odd reason, it never occurred to me that "couple" could also refer to "couple of friends". . . .

We specifically requested group photos in the original call and then once we saw that we couldn't get any decent showing of couple pictures, and none of groups from meetups, we asked for pictures of people who could appear as a couple - as ajay and I are doing on the front page. There was even quite a long thread on the issue which led to all of the foreign aven's being approached for their submissions because of the severe lack of submissions from the English aven's.

One of the people who participates in both the German and English forum suggested this in response to the problems about finding group photos. However, the only thing we got in response to approaching all groups was several quotes from the italians (blue-beryl's is included in the design)

Trip wrote:
and I'll have to finish this tonight. The conference is starting

And, realistically, the conference is starting in two weeks.

I was referring to the conference that was starting at the moment I was writing that. I found it more important to greet the attendees as they arrived than I did to finish my post right then and there. Realistically if I had waited two weeks, there would have been no one there to hear us speak. :D Indeed the speech is already over.

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My humble, non-project-team suggestion:

Merge the design (color & font scheme) of the new pamphlet with the content and layout of the old one (updating the details like number of members, of course). Nothing new has to be composed, just combine elements from both. The new one looks a lot more professional but I think the old one represents AVEN better, and doesn't have the masturbation section which I agree is inappropriate.

And here's a hi-res PNG triangle I made:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/sideshowratt/aven.png

We decided that details like member number should not be included because of how fluid they change. Including that data could end up making the pamphlet outdated less than a week after it was printed

* And while it has previously been in the works for something else just as relevant to asexuality as masturbation to replace that bit, I'd like to point out that at today's conference the first question asked in the Q and A was about asexuals masturbating

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If sexuals want to be complete boors, we can do nothing to stop them. I don't care if they always want to know. The question is always rude and inappropriate. We should not encourage it in an official publication. If they see it in the pamphlet, they are just going to assume that it is a perfectly acceptable question to ask. But, it isn't.

I'm certain that, at the start of the homosexual rights movement they got similar questions. In fact, I know they did. Lesbians would be asked how they managed to do anything. And gay men would be asked all sorts of details about what they do with other dudes' [insert body part here]. But, that kind of behavior isn't okay! The questions are rude, and all such inquiries should be deflected. If you are personally okay in answering the quesiton ad infinitum, fine. Answer it. However, I don't think that the rest of us should be doomed to the same fate. We need to start training sexuals out there to let us have some dignity -- and privacy.

Besides, the question is based on a false assumption, anyway. They figure that, if we masturbate, that means we really do want to have sex on some level. Which is, of course, not true. For us, they equate masturbation with sex. Whereas for themselves, sex and masturabation are clearly seperate, non equal activities. The question sets up a double standard: they can masturbate as much as they want and not have it count as sex, whereas we cannot masturbate so much as a single time without really, secretly desiring sex. The question is a badge for our being considered seperate and unequal. I wouldn't go so far as to say it is a discriminatory question; but, to my mind, it approaches it.

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I don't remember the photcalls. I wonder how many AVENites do. Is it worht asking agian? We have a lot more members now.

And Keith actually has articulated something I was uncomfortbale with about the masturbation bit but couldn't put my finger on. He's right to a sexual masturbation = sexual activity becuase you're not getting it anywhere else. Heck there's even masturbating in fornt of you partner nad mutla mastubration that sexuals take part in - how many asexuals do that? Masturbating on your own does not mean you want another person to be present but some sexuals may not realise that. To a sexual masturbation shows you have sexual desire as many AVENites have found when trying to explain asexuality.

Of course not all sexuals think this there are a many who have no problem with the idea of sex drive and sexual attraction being seperate.

And why should we have to make a point of saying it?

Do heterosexual people have to describe their sexual activity when talking about their orientation? No because it's a private thing.

Yes sexuals should be aware of the issues but answering questions is one thing and making a point of it on a pamphlet to me almost suggests insecurity and brings about the idea we are people who just cannot get some so to speak so we masturbate.

I'm an asexual with a sex drive who does get tired of the assumption that asexual = lack of sexual arousal but I do do feel uncomfortbale with the masturbation section as it stands.

But yeah Keith probably said it better than I just did.

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Oh, I SO know how it feels to do a lot of work on something for a deadline, do your best to consult and get few responses, and THEN a lot of people come out of the woodwork too late and say yes, but... so thanks and sorry, people who did this and Trip in particular, but this is my two-pennorth (British for 2c worth).

I wasn't really aware enough of this either which might be my fault, everyone has their own habits in terms of where they roam on the board. I'd never seen pamphlets and assumed they were mostly used in the US and Canada, saw one thread but don't have the technology for photos, tried to think of a lesbian-A quote but always write too wordily, then forgot again. I think Trip in particular was trying to get done for the campus conference she is now speaking at, but it's still worth trying to get this better for the World Sexology event, because as others have said, it's important how we represent ourselves.

I have to agree that the content of the old pamphlet is pleasing and the new one somehow resembles an evangelical christian tract on chastity, not that I would have spotted that before someone else did but that's how these things work. And I feel really strongly, needless to say, about the heteronormative issue. COTL's skirt isn't really enough!

I don't mind people asking about masturbation (I grumpily accepted being asked in the early 1970s what lesbians do in bed as well), that's meeting people's curiosity where it is, but I agree that pre-empting the question and sticking it on the pamphlet like this looks odd in terms of how introductory pamphlets work.

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I'm certain that, at the start of the homosexual rights movement they got similar questions. In fact, I know they did. Lesbians would be asked how they managed to do anything. And gay men would be asked all sorts of details about what they do with other dudes' [insert body part here]. But, that kind of behavior isn't okay!

You just reminded me of my mom's gay friend who got asked by his dentist if anal sex feels good and if it's true that gay men put hamsters up their butts.

I do not mind talking about masturbation myself, but then again I'm overly candid about most things. I do feel though that if the masturbation section makes even a few AVENites uncomfortable, it should be removed. This pamphlet (as I understand it) is meant to represent all of us, and even if not everyone is okay with having their photos, quotes, and names printed, we should at least feel a certain level of comfort with the content. Also, if we're trying to attract questioning people who might have an aversion to sex to AVEN, having the m-word splashed in big letters across the pamphlet might have the exact opposite effect.

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Oh, I SO know how it feels to do a lot of work on something for a deadline, do your best to consult and get few responses, and THEN a lot of people come out of the woodwork too late and say yes, but...

Yes. especially when you spent two months trying to obtain responses. Actualy longer than that if you ount the time given for the foreign aven's to step up to provide the same material asked in the English AVEN's.

It would be well for members to remember that the English AVEN has no system to send out mass emails, and it simply isn't feasible to send everyone out an individual pm. Therefore it is important for those who with a vested interest in visibility materials to routinely read through the visibility forum, as well as the PT forum. Otherwise situations like this will become a regular occurence.

In the meantime, to help on the other side of the issue, I have approached the powers that be about granting every member of the PT the ability to sticky threads here so they will be on the top of page 1. Perhaps a section can also be added to AVENues for future requests.

I would like to mention that some of the concerns being brought up now (ie Ajay's quote amongst others) were previuosly discussed in detail and length in this very forum. Dj and I think the thread with the most intense discussions must have been lost when bluehost kicked us off though, as I've been unable to bring it back up for you. Ajay's quote was included specifically becuase he mentioned being straigbht, and many avenites felt that there needed to be something to reinforce that many asexuals prefer one sex over the other, and that not all asexuals are gays who are afraid of being gay. Of course it would have been great if if a gay avenite had been willing to submit a quote that indicate their romantic preferences as well, but no one responded to the calls, and those approached privately said they didn't want to be in the pamphlets.

I'm not saying comments aren't valued and appreciated, or that new and very valid concerns aren't being brought up now (Kbird had a great point about the photo in relation to the masturbation question). I'm just saying that some of what is being brought up has already been publically discussed in detail and decided to be included (or not included, ie statistics) by the general members of AVEN.

Also please not that when making coments/suggestions on the improvements that criticism cannot be taken constructively if you don't let us know what you are criticising. For example, pointing out typos is very important and crucial, but its not enough to simply say, "there are typos." and then expect us to correct them based on that. We need you to identify the typos you have found before we can correct them.

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I think part of it is people don't tend to visit this forum beucase I don't think a lto of memebers realise they can have their say here. Linking threads being discussed here in forums where there's more traffic might be useful.

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Also please not that when making coments/suggestions on the improvements that criticism cannot be taken constructively if you don't let us know what you are criticising. For example, pointing out typos is very important and crucial, but its not enough to simply say, "there are typos." and then expect us to correct them based on that. We need you to identify the typos you have found before we can correct them.

I have repeatedly given a list (and, at one point, provided a re-worked "mockup" of the pamphlets).

To ensure that this gets to whomever can deal with it, I will take the time to re-type the list and post it here in this thread, most likely on Tuesday, which is my next day off. It is important to note that I was not only talking about typos. . . .

As far as the public discussion is concerned, if the thread was, in fact, lost during the bluehost event -- that was a long time ago. I am not surprised that many people do not seem to remember it. Nevertheless, it would appear that, no matter the conclusions of that conversation might have been, the majority of people in this thread seem to feel that the pamphlets as they stand do not reflect as positively on AVEN and its members as they could.

Remember, it isn't just about content, it is also about execution. A section on masturbation might sound reasonable enough in theory; however, after having seen it, opinions might change. But, there was never a discussion on the pamphlets after the design had been finalized. The only thread on the subject in which the general membership of AVEN could comment occurred in here and began with a warning telling us it was too late to make any changes. It might not have been anyone's intention to imply that it was too late for us to comment; however, that was the effect.

Still, as AVEN is an ongoing community, it stands to reason that any literature which describes us will also, of necessity, need to be ongoing. Therefore, a discussion at any time would be appropriate, to address changes within the community and changes in opinion. . . .

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I have repeatedly given a list (and, at one point, provided a re-worked "mockup" of the pamphlets).

I've no idea who you sent a list of misspelled words too. I do know that neither Cacille nor myself has been sent them. As such, no typos have been corrected

IF you sent them to someone via pm, you can get the pm you sent back by looking in your sent box (if they've already read it) or outbox (if they've not yet opened it) so there is no need to retype.

To ensure that this gets to whomever can deal with it, I will take the time to re-type the list and post it here in this thread, most likely on Tuesday, which is my next day off. It is important to note that I was not only talking about typos. . . .

Yes. However its also important to note that typos are a non-issue that can be fixed without any discussion at all, provided someone is informed of where they are occuring. Alot of what you brought up are issues, that have been discussed publically on AVEN, and decisions were made about including/excluding them as a result of what the general mebership spoke up about. Sometimes compromises have to be made. if there are 20 yays and 1 nay (or even 10 nays), the decision should be yay, even if the nay-sayer's belief is strongly and deeply held, or even if the nay sayer happens to be the one who has the final say-so in determing what goes in the pamphlets

As far as the public discussion is concerned, if the thread was, in fact, lost during the bluehost event -- that was a long time ago. I am not surprised that many people do not seem to remember it. Nevertheless, it would appear that, no matter the conclusions of that conversation might have been, the majority of people in this thread seem to feel that the pamphlets as they stand do not reflect as positively on AVEN and its members as they could.

No one ever said the pamphlets were static. Now granted they have to be considered finalized at one point or there would be no benefit to having pamphlets in begin with, and obviously changes cannot be made to the hundreds of pamphlets that were printed when the only response to this edition was positive. But that doesn't mean this edition has to be the one printed for future events

Remember, it isn't just about content, it is also about execution. A section on masturbation might sound reasonable enough in theory; however, after having seen it, opinions might change.

As I stated above, its been in the works for some time now to replace the masturbation section

But, there was never a discussion on the pamphlets after the design had been finalized. The only thread on the subject in which the general membership of AVEN could comment occurred in here and began with a warning telling us it was too late to make any changes. It might not have been anyone's intention to imply that it was too late for us to comment; however, that was the effect.

Yes, I do agree with that being the impression. I can see how it might not be enough to say something like "For the next printing, I'd like to have a break down on how the triangle represents sexuality" and have people realize that means that other changes can be made for the next printing

However, being is this is the forum designated for general members to disucss PT projects, I don't see any problem with the only discussions on PT issues for general projects to be held here. In fact, some discussions on projects elsewhere (ie announcements) were moved to this forum in the past for what I presume to be this specific reason

Still, as AVEN is an ongoing community, it stands to reason that any literature which describes us will also, of necessity, need to be ongoing. Therefore, a discussion at any time would be appropriate, to address changes within the community and changes in opinion. . . .

As I said preivously in this reply, the pamphlets are not considered static. However, one cannot reasonably expect those who printed out several pamphlets when the only response to them was positive to toss them out, especially when one considers the cost of printing them.

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Could someone please explain this goto meeting thingum discussed in the PT board?

If it's just PT members invited, does it matter whether it's on that site or a group chat or just organizing a time for discussion on AVEN? If time is of the essence, does a solution that means waiting a week to even discuss it really make sense?

If discussion does take place off-AVEN, will it be posted here for the rest of us to see?

As Hallucigenia said, how will this incorporate non-PT comments? Do we get a chance to interactively ? Do we get to have input on what's decided in that discussion?

[/socratic explainneret]

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VivreEstEsperer

Why are there only couples, for the most part, in the pamphlet?

The biggest reason I joined AVEN and got so much out of it and still do is the emphasis on "You don't have to be part of a couple to be a good person." I dont know what the stats are....but I'd say there are probably a lot more uncoupled avenites than coupled. It's all very good and fine to be coupled, and it's definitely what the TV networks and media want to see, but I think we should be sending out a message of self esteem to those people who just have no issue in being couple or in being romantic or sexual at all. If I had looked at this pamphlet before I knew about asexuality,all I would have seen was the couples, and I would have concluded that I was still alone.

Why can't use the pictures from the first pamphlet? What was wrong with them? I don't personally think there was anything wrong with the first pamphlet, it's not like the definition of asexuality has changed in the last two years.

I appreciate the work you've done to spread the word on asexuality, and I have nothing against you personally, these are just my thoughts on the pamphlet since it's the first i have heard of it too. I dont come to aven much anymore so i'll admit that as well.

Kate

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Kinda going back to what spin said, I think it might be nice to have the chat meeting discussed in the PT forum open to non-PT members too if you have it- the only problem is coordinating it so people from different time zones can make it, and I think that is a pretty big problem. It seems like it might be best to have it on the forums, but I don't know. But yeah, it seems like there's some non-PT members wanting to get in on the decision-making process, and if it's not going past any of the Project Team rules (I'm not sure how much non-PT members are allowed to get involved in PT projects?) that might be cool. I'm just afraid there's an Us vs. Them mentality being formed, and I know what that's like as an Admod...

Also, when you guys make a rough or final draft of the pamphlet, maybe it'd be cool to post a copy of it in V&E, not just the PT forum so that way it encourages non-PT members to comment on the pamphlet by the mere presence of a thread they can post in.

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Hallucigenia

It was my impression that the live meeting would be scheduled so that as many PTers as possible were there, but held openly to whoever happened to also be online at that time. That's just my impression, though, so don't take my word for it - I'm not actually involved in planning this thing.

How would y'all feel about simply porting the written content of the old pamphlet into the graphic design of the new one? I see a lot of people here saying basically the same thing, which is that the old one wasn't very broken and we seem to have accidentally made it worse by trying to fix it. :?

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Hallu - speaking just for myself I think the wirtten content of the old one was fine. Some new pictures (and like Kate said maybe not all couples) and a bit of new graphics and yeah that would work.

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It was my impression that the live meeting would be scheduled so that as many PTers as possible were there, but held openly to whoever happened to also be online at that time. That's just my impression, though, so don't take my word for it - I'm not actually involved in planning this thing.

Yeah, I wasn't sure from the PT thread... But yeah, that would be cool, so everyone who has some input can get in on the conversation.

How would y'all feel about simply porting the written content of the old pamphlet into the graphic design of the new one? I see a lot of people here saying basically the same thing, which is that the old one wasn't very broken and we seem to have accidentally made it worse by trying to fix it.

Well... I think the new design could use some tweaking, to be honest, same as the old one. I might consider cutting out quotes entirely, but that's just me...

Also- here's another example of a pamphlet: http://www.asexuality.org.nz/pamphlet.htm

It's the New Zealand one- they took the content of the old pamphlet, modified it a bit and had a new design.

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I really don't understand why we can't just try to get people talking here. If you want to schedule a time to get as much live interaction as possible great, but if this is going to be a community effort then why not have it on the forums? Moving it elsewhere just seems bureaucratic and messy.

Mind you I do think that AVEN would do best to start moving some operations off the forums, but if we're going to do this project this way, the we should at least make it as simple as possible to communicate.

I like the Aotearoa pamphlet as a simple straightforward design. If there are to be quotes I like how those ones are unattributed, and I really think the old Q&A is tried and true. At this point a clean minimalist design like the Aotearoa pamphlet might at least be a good stopgap.

I feel like I just can't address all the pamphlet issues, so here's one that I'm sure will come up when we discuss Aotearoa's photoless design:

PHOTOS

I don't believe we need pictures at this time, since

1) snapshots have that "backyard" feel mentioned by many

2) existing studio photos may have licensing issues

3) stock photography is of the devil

I've mentioned before when Triple A asked about pictures and stock photography that if we are determined to use pictures, we should look into getting professional/semiprofessional pictures taken with an agreement to use them for nonprofit purposes. Most studio photos are actually licenced to the photographer, so I would not reprint peoples' existing senior pictures or studio portraits out of legal concerns.

I have friends who are photographers or photography students as must many AVENites, so I'm sure some people willing to model could make arrangements that would ensure nice pictures and legal high ground.

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Dj and I both felt it would be too chaotic to have the session open to everyone (and the decision was heavily based on the result of past attempts to do similar things. Nothing but failure rarely comes out of situaions where there are 20 chiefs and no tribesmen). I will explain this more in detail privately to anyone who wishes - just pm me. But perhaps an open session can be held prior to the pt one, if there are enough people willing to attend at a compatible time.

Also- here's another example of a pamphlet: http://www.asexuality.org.nz/pamphlet.htm

It's the New Zealand one- they took the content of the old pamphlet, modified it a bit and had a new design.

I like that one though I also see some room for changes. They've successfully gotten around some of the things that were hurdles and roadblocks to me.

I've had the intention of translating the Dutch pamphlets for English use for awhile now (just haven't had time too). They are double sided but can be fit 3 to a page - and given the cost of printing I think alot of people would be glad to have such a smaller version. Though the bit about asexuals in Belgium and Netherlands would need to be replaced with something relevant to the English speaking world. I don't have time to write the translation now, but you can pretty much understand exactly what they are saying anyway. The feet turned away from each other symbolize No sex, as one of them once came across two feet pointing to each other to symbolize a couple was having sex

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/ktteg...ervoorbeeld.jpg

How would y'all feel about simply porting the written content of the old pamphlet into the graphic design of the new one? I see a lot of people here saying basically the same thing, which is that the old one wasn't very broken and we seem to have accidentally made it worse by trying to fix it.

All of the concepts covered in the old, should be in the new - however, Sam did rephrase things to counter the "too much text" problem, which is why some things are missing - like the pamphlets specifically mentioned how asexuals may prefer one sex over the other, or both sexes for romantic orientations (and I know for a fact that was in there because it really grates on me when people tell me that because I'm asexual I'm biromantic)

However, before we decide to go back to the old text exactly as is, I'd like to bring up something that was mentioned to me by several of the foreign avenites who were helping with the pamphlets. The Italians, Dutch, and Germans all mentioned that the text in the old pamphlet was too defensive. They felt it gave off an impression like, "I don't mind not having sex, because I can do this.." instead of a lack of interest in sex in the first place. One suggestion to help counter the defensive stance came from the Dutch Aven: "I think the quotes should be about our feelings, the reasons why we are not interested in sex and maybe about the lack of understanding for our feelings."

Also, when you guys make a rough or final draft of the pamphlet, maybe it'd be cool to post a copy of it in V&E, not just the PT forum so that way it encourages non-PT members to comment on the pamphlet by the mere presence of a thread they can post in.

Will do. Though there was a thread posted here encouraging people to read the PT forum about it.

Why are there only couples, for the most part, in the pamphlet?

Because those were the only group photos submitted and avenites are very adamant that no stock photos should be used, no matter how realistic they look. It was not ever my intention to include myself but given the lack of decent quality pictures with appropriate framing, as well as the general lack of photos in the fist place, there really wasn't much else we could use.

I'd always planned on having a shot of multiple avenites accompanying the aven information but no one provided one and the only ones in the phot thread contained people who didn't want their picture in the pamphlets.

As for why we cannot use the old photos, aside from the common criticisms brought up about them in the planning stages, some people pictured no longer wish to be pictured. Some of the criticisms about them were they drew attention to the person and away from the quote, their cropping made everyone look really ugly, and they didn't show the real person.

TBQH I think a large part of the opposition to stock photography might be a lack of understanding it. For example most people's experience is limited too pictures of falsely happy smiling couples that are unrelated to the subject being represented. After all that's the kind of stock imagery you can get for free. My uni uses stock imagery in various places around its website and if I weren't the tourism webmaster i'd never have guessed it. Even the logo for my program is stock imagery. It's professional stock imagery, though and not free-grade stuff.

If it's just PT members invited, does it matter whether it's on that site or a group chat or just organizing a time for discussion on AVEN? If time is of the essence, does a solution that means waiting a week to even discuss it really make sense?

It is just PT members but yes it does matter as to whether its there or on the board. For one thing we can make live changes to the pamphlet while all are looking at it on their screen. It allows us to dwelve much deeper than a threaded discussion does, which is why Dj suggested it.

If discussion does take place off-AVEN, will it be posted here for the rest of us to see?

I'm not famliar with goto meeting myself, but yes if its possible to copy our converstaion we'll make sure you can see it

As Hallucigenia said, how will this incorporate non-PT comments? Do we get a chance to interactively ? Do we get to have input on what's decided in that discussion?

All the comments/suggestions/criticisms brought up here will be discussed in the session and decisions made on that.

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To be more serious about stock photography, purchased stock photography licenses I've seen usually contain restrictions on number of times an image can be reproduced. This would be another legal issue if we intend to print in large volumes.

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Just to add to the stock photography point, purchased stock photography licenses usually contain restrictions on number of times an image can be reproduced. This would be another legal issue if we intend to print in large volumes.

Actually we don't have to worry about that, thanks to my position as tourism webmaster. I've been given blanket permission to use the uni accounts for any non-uni site I work on and their access isn't limited - we'd be in big trouble if it was, we send out upwards of 5,000/month, sometimes as many as 20,000

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