on pamphlets

[spinneret]

Hey, I just wanted to throw in my .02 about the pamphlet discussion happening in PT. I wish I could just post there, but I hope a VEO thread will do. I brought the pamphlets to KBRD's attention. I was pretty dismayed that the current design is considered "final," and I didn't realize how last-minute this was. I feel like non-PT people have mostly been out of the loop on this and other PT projects.

The pamplets are about more than PT politics, the forum or even AVEN. they're putting a face on asexuality, and I think we owe it to ourselves and to all the asexuals out there who aren't on AVEN to make the best impression we can.

I've mentioned before—on the pamphlet threads, and to others—that I'd really prefer to have a professional make up pamphlets because they'll be such a big part of asexual visibility. We have professional media folks on tap at AVEN, so I don't know why we aren't using the resources we have to their fullest.

I didn't mean to hurt feelings or stir up anger, I just want what's best for asexuals on- and off-AVEN. If we can't honestly say "I don't think this is good enough," then we're not going to get anywhere.

[kbrd143]

For the record, I have sent a list of specific issues to a person who is in a position to make changes on the pamphlets. I would prefer that any further questions or comments on this issue be addressed on the boards, as what is discussed here will affect us all and how we are perceived by those who view the pamphlets.

[Busrider]

Curiosity: What is the planned print size? Postcard? Or bigger? If bigger I firmly believe the columns of the front side JPG should be rearanged, to allow folding down.

No comment on content, besides that the pictures of the rear side will not look significantly bigger than a fly's poop if printed as postcard.

[retrophile]

Okay, I have no authority on this and have only seen the most recent iteration of the pamphlets, but I do have one little gripe and I'm going to post it here anyway.

I think that if the goal is to put a face on the asexual movement, using only people's AVEN forum names defeats the purpose. Attributing the quotes to a first name (even a fake first name!) goes a lot further toward humanizing the speaker. As a message board user I have a very hard time conceptualizing usernames as actual people, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[winter]

i agree with that sentiment, retrophile. couldn't have said it better myself.

[Brodertun]

The current pamphlet on display in the PT forum was put together by a professional - one of Dj's friends who is a graphics designer. Although its based on my design, Sam put the whole thing together from scratch and made changes based on what he felt looked best (ie picturing shadowing, different cropping of photos, the question mark on "what asexuality is not," removing the Aven graffiti on the front, making the blue lines to the of a visually appealing width etc)

Also maybe you missed this thread, (or perhaps my post since it was not the first post and thinking back on it I can see one might think the first post meant that there was no room for change) but we specifically asked all Aven members to point out any errors they saw on February 2. A few people did, and changes were made based on that, but once 3 weeks passed with no one bringing up a concern, and the only comments on them being from people asking permission to take the original photo file to their campus GLBT organization for reproduction, I agreed with DJ that we were ready to go to print

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=21675

*I'm not exactly sure why you feel general AVEN members were left out of the loop so I'd like you to elaborate on which outreach areas you feel we are lacking in- we've been posting the designs here as soon as we've finsiehd them and asking for comments, and with the exception of the color scheme, every time a signifcant change has been made to the pamphlets, or we've rejected something we really wanted to include, it was because a member of the general forum, or usually several, spoke up about it the issue. We even rejected an entire pamphlet design scheme because of what the general members had to say about it

----

To Retro and Winter,

When the pamphlets were first conceptualized Jesh and I intended to put fake names, or even stock photos/photos of other avenites next to the quotes of people who wished not to divulge this information about themselves, but the majority of AVENites were against the idea. Many stated that it would make AVEN look less legitimate if people were to come here and find out that wasn't the correct information for the people quoted. That was discussed back when we were having trouble with the previous design* when we had a serious lack of photos/people willing to identify themselfs - the aven names was a sort of compromise.The people are identified, but not overally so. And anyone who likes their quote can easily find that person on the forums to see if they are legit (provided they haven't changed their username).

I personally agree that real names attributed to the pamphlets are great, but thats not what everyone wanted and I feel ibligated to go along with the majority of AVENites wishes. And we cannot use the honest names of everyone because some people submitted their quote on the condition that they not be identified an such a way. Though maybe we should try a poll to see if the majority of people are still against the idea.

And I think we should be using stock photos simply to show a good age/race balance especially as one common criticism brought up by members is that we only show white people on the pamphlets. However, even though we tried to acitvely solicit minority photos, Ajay is the only non-white avenite we know of who is willing to appear in the pamphlets.

I tried to find the thread this was all discussed on to show you, but its not coming up in searches and since I've switched coputers since then I don't have the link stored in my favorites. It was probably discussed in or around November because I know it was back when Jesh was a key player in the design of the pamphlets

Curiosity: What is the planned print size? Postcard? Or bigger? If bigger I firmly believe the columns of the front side JPG should be rearanged, to allow folding down.

No comment on content, besides that the pictures of the rear side will not look significantly bigger than a fly's poop if printed as postcard.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the pamphlets would be printed postcard size (unless you are remembering one person who fit two on one piece of paper by accident)

The pamphlets are printed normal pamphlet size, and can easily be tri-folded. Cacille might still have some extras left that she can send to you so you can see what they're like

*I'm referring to the design that was thrown out because pretty much every AVENite who spoke up when it posted for their comments felt that it was a poor design - the blue one with the huge purple upside down triangle in the background)

[KAGU143]

I find myself being caught in the middle and having some feelings of conflict in this issue.

On the one hand, I have nothing but gratitude toward all the people who worked so hard on it. I can tell that a great deal of effort went into it and that hard effort is deserving of recognition as well as respect.

On the other hand, after studying it more carefully than I did when I first took a quick look at it, I can see that it would benefit greatly from some additional editing.

Besides all of the other points which have already been mentioned, I am quite dismayed by the change done to AVEN's logo. As it is portrayed on the new pamphlet it is completely meaningless. It's nothing more than a triangle with a bar of shading across it. The way it was originally conceived, with the color ranging from a black lower tip through shades of grey blending to white at the top, it had a specific meaning. It originally was intended to show the range of sexual attraction varying from none at all (asexuals) through a little bit (hyposexuals) to normal (100% straight to 100% gay, and all realms in between).

I see no mispelled words, but there is one incorrect word which is probably just a typo. There are several punctuation mistakes as well as some grammar issues that need to be corrected.

For an amateur volunteer production it isn't bad at all, and I wouldn't want to insist on perfection in that case, but if professionals are involved I think it should be held to a higher standard.

Granted, a graphics designer isn't expected to be a proofreader as well, but still ... :?

-GB

[Brodertun]

Besides all of the other points which have already been mentioned, I am quite dismayed by the change done to AVEN's logo. As it is portrayed on the new pamphlet it is completely meaningless. It's nothing more than a triangle with a bar of shading across it.

I think you are commenting on the old version of the pamphlets (Boa's design that was distributed about three years ago) instead of the new version. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying*

The old version represented the AVEN logo is nothing more than an upside down trianle with black in the bottom half.

*As no one answered any requests for a copy of the AVEN triangle without the AVEN logo background, and it proved impossible to crop the triangle out of the logo and still have it look nice, a new triangle needed to be created - this new one as is close as I was able to get

[sonofzeal]

Hey there - I have a few comments and criticisms to add about the current pamphlet design. I want to preface this by saying that I'm immensely grateful to the people who put the time and effort into getting this one off the ground. That said, I think there's a few critical flaws than need to be addressed before I'd be comfortable with this pamphlet being distributed to represent AVEN and asexuality to the outside world.

First off, we have to understand that most people who look at it will only skim it, so we need to pay very careful attention to the overall impression. And to me, and a few other people I've checked with, the first impression is that it's promoting chastity. If you don't read it very carefully, it looks like a bit of fundamentalist christian propaganda (speaking as a christian myself here), and that's going to turn a LOT of people off and prevent them from reading further, or from taking the whole thing seriously even if they do read it. Yes, it says asexuality is not celebacy, but in the middle of a page of text that nobody's going to read if they think that's what this is about. You couldn't look at the old pamphlet without the definition of asexuality staring you in the face; that's what we need for the new one before I'll be comfortable with it.

The second thing was pointed out to me by someone who is connected with LGBT advocacy groups - the whole pamphelet is rather overflowing with heteronormative imagery and content. Three of the seven pictures are of a single person, and of the other four, every single one is of guy-girl couples, and three of those are obviously in a romantic context. AVEN is the place that taught me what "heteronormative culture" meant, and the problems with it, so why are we using such heteronormative imagery? In addition to contributing to a problem we wish to solve, we're also completely alienating the LGBT community, and, according to my friend, even giving them a reason to NOT include asexuality in their agenda.

I believe both of these issues can be addressed without completely revamping the whole pamphlet (maybe just the first two sheafs), and would vastly increase the power and effectiveness of it. Again, I very much appreciate the people who have put their time into working on this, and I wish this pamphlet to be everything it can be.

[Brodertun]

The second thing was pointed out to me by someone who is connected with LGBT advocacy groups - the whole pamphelet is rather overflowing with heteronormative imagery and content. Three of the seven pictures are of a single person, and of the other four, every single one is of guy-girl couples, and three of those are obviously in a romantic context. AVEN is the place that taught me what "heteronormative culture" meant, and the problems with it, so why are we using such heteronormative imagery?

Zeal,

We got into this a bit above. Since AVENites have been very outspoken about not using stock photos, we have no choice but to use what avenites are willing to provide to us, and so far that leaves us solely with guy-girl couples. Like with minority photos, we specifically tried to solicit same sex couples, oe even photos of people that would indicate a same-sex couple, much the way ajay and I projecting a biracial couple, but we've had no responses to public inqurieis, and only polite refusals to directly asking specific people. We haven't even been able to get a quote that would indicate a homo-asexual

Our hands our tied on the issue until non hetero-a's are willing to stand up, or until AVENites are no longer deadset against using stock imagery

*The original title of the pamphlets was "Not interested in sex?" but some members had a problem with that being a title, and Neurovore suggested, "Sex, no thank you" which is how we got the current title. IF you can come up with a better one feel free to state it

[sonofzeal]

It wasn't the title, specifically, that was the problem. If it was up to me, I'd have the title more towards the top and "Asexual: A person who does not experience sexual attraction." in bold font towards the bottom.

And even if you can't find a picture of two homosexual avenites together, would it be possible to find two who are friends? Surely there's a picture of two asexuals of the same gender somewhere....

[Brodertun]

It wasn't the title, specifically, that was the problem. If it was up to me, I'd have the title more towards the top and "Asexual: A person who does not experience sexual attraction." in bold font towards the bottom.

And even if you can't find a picture of two homosexual avenites together, would it be possible to find two who are friends? Surely there's a picture of two asexuals of the same gender somewhere....

As I stated above we tried to find a picture of either a gay couple or a picture that could indicate a gay couple, as the picture on the bottom of a front implies that ajay and I are a couple, instead of just friends, but no one responded to a public call for just that, and none of the homo-a's we approached are willing to appear with the significant other. Likewise none of the non-homo-asexuals we asked about it who posted a photo somehwere that we could use for this are willing to appear in the pamphlets.

As a result of this, COTL was given prime possession on the front of the pamphlets to help keep from alienating the GLBT groups

[sonofzeal]

Come to think of it, what was wrong with "Not everyone is interested in sex" from the old pamphlet? That, to me, illustrated and explains asexuality almost perfectly.

[Brodertun]

Come to think of it, what was wrong with "Not everyone is interested in sex" from the old pamphlet? That, to me, illustrated and explains asexuality almost perfectly.

I can't remember - it was discussed in a multi-avenite group chat session, but since that is what led to neuro suggesting the new title maybe he can recall

[sonofzeal]

I can't remember - it was discussed in a multi-avenite group chat session, but since that is what led to neuro suggesting the new title maybe he can recall

I'd be very curious to know why. Neurovore hasn't been very active recently though, so it'll be hard to ask him unless you have his contact info. It could be that people were brainstorming anyway, even though the old one was perfectly satisfactory. In any case, old title or new, could we please get the definition of asexuality right up front and centre? I'd do it myself if I had the software; I really do feel that it's of critical importance.

[Brodertun]

I can't remember - it was discussed in a multi-avenite group chat session, but since that is what led to neuro suggesting the new title maybe he can recall

I'd be very curious to know why. Neurovore hasn't been very active recently though, so it'll be hard to ask him unless you have his contact info. It could be that people were brainstorming anyway, even though the old one was perfectly satisfactory. In any case, old title or new, could we please get the definition of asexuality right up front and centre? I'd do it myself if I had the software; I really do feel that it's of critical importance.

I think that's a good idea. We'll hae to see how the pictures need to be re-arranged around it first - Because of the heteronormity isue I think its important that COTL's picture still remain prominent on the front of the pamphlets

[retrophile]

And anyone who likes their quote can easily find that person on the forums to see if they are legit (provided they haven't changed their username).

Which you just did! That's another reason usernames aren't ideal - they're very fluid on this board, and users drop in and out of activity as evidenced by the AWOL thread. This may seem bitchy, but I feel like someone who won't allow their real first name to be used maybe shouldn't be a spokesperson. If we're all about visibility why get quotes from someone who wants to be invisible? I came into this late, but I'd be willing to lend my face and real name to any future material (I am white and hetero, though).

Also, I'm confused as to why the change in the triangle logo. The new gradient doesn't seem to emphasize the bottom (asexual) tip of the triangle, which I thought was the point. If that's the new official AVEN logo then I need to repaint my t-shirt.

[Brodertun]

And anyone who likes their quote can easily find that person on the forums to see if they are legit (provided they haven't changed their username).

Which you just did! That's another reason usernames aren't ideal - they're very fluid on this board' date=' and users drop in and out of activity as evidenced by the AWOL thread. This may seem bitchy, but I feel like someone who won't allow their real first name to be used maybe shouldn't be a spokesperson. If we're all about visibility why get quotes from someone who wants to be invisible? I

quote']

Given the very few number of people of legal consenting age willing to submit quotes in the first place we have no choice but to use quotes from people who aren't willing to submit their first name.

Also, I'm confused as to why the change in the triangle logo. The new gradient doesn't seem to emphasize the bottom (asexual) tip of the triangle, which I thought was the point. If that's the new official AVEN logo then I need to repaint my t-shirt.

Please read above, where the triangles are picture

[Kez]

Looking at the new triangle, I just see a triangle with shading. There's no correlation (except for the shape) with the triangle up on the left hand side of this page.

I like the "Not Everyone is Interested in Sex" quote on the front of the old pamphlet - it's upfront, straight forward, and, quite frankly, it is eye catching.

When people were being asked for pictures, I was under the impression it was for couples romantically involved, not friends.

[Brodertun]

Looking at the new triangle' date=' I just see a triangle with shading. There's no correlation (except for the shape) with the triangle up on the left hand side of this page.

Please read above. Its much closer than the one in the old pamphlets, and as no one has the original logo its the best we've got.

When people were being asked for pictures, I was under the impression it was for couples romantically involved, not friends.

The first time we asked we did look for that. However, when it became apparent that they only submission we would be getting was Hu and Winter, we began asking for friends who could appear as couple, in particular, same gender friends. We even searched through the photo thread looking for AVENites with appropriate photos to solicit but they all reclined.

[Kez]

*blinks*

You're saying that no-one can make the triangle featured on the main page?

[Brodertun]

*blinks*

You're saying that no-one can make the triangle featured on the main page?

I have no idea if they can or not. I can only say that no one has ever answered any request eith public or private about making it, or providing the original.

If you look closely, you'll notice the only real difference between the new triangle and that one above is that the new one is a lot darker (Look closely, you can even see the white line going across the logo triangle). Perhaps that means its possible to make that triangle in my program but I don't know how and I can't even figure out how to emulate the triangle BOA used in that particular program

[Kez]

I'll copy/paste it and host it if that's all that needs to be done.

[Brodertun]

I'll copy/paste it and host it if that's all that needs to be done.

If you are referring to the logo, it needs more than copying and pasting - the triangle needs to A) be removed from the logo and B) be provide in a different image format, such as PNG - its blurry/grainy from being stored in .Jpg, which incidentally is also the reason it can't neatly be cropped out of the logo.

[KAGU143]

*whew*

I couldn't remember the specifics about where the original was first developed, and it took me over an hour to find this thread. 'Turns out it was made almost 2 years ago. I made a rough first draft (inspired by Hex) which had bands ranging from black through different shades of grey and fading out to white. Dargon cleaned it up and made the official version.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewt...ghlight=#193295

The membership has grown and turned over so much since then that I guess it's no surprise that a lot of people don't remember when this was done or why.

-GB

[Brodertun]

*whew*

I couldn't remember the specifics about where the original was first developed, and it took me over an hour to find this thread. 'Turns out it was made almost 2 years ago. I made a rough first draft (inspired by Hex) which had bands ranging from black through different shades of grey and fading out to white. Dargon cleaned it up and made the official version.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewt...ghlight=#193295

The membership has grown and turned over so much since then that I guess it's no surprise that a lot of people don't remember when this was done or why.

-GB

Hmm, thats not qute the same as the one at the top of the page though and the edges are too jagged for printing on the pamphlets, so they would need re-done (at least now we know which avenite to pester about it :) ).

[Kez]

So if I can clear up the official symbol, and save it in PNG, is that good?

[Brodertun]

So if I can clear up the official symbol, and save it in PNG, is that good?

yes. Thank you.

[spinneret]

There's so much to discuss and I'm short on time, so I'll just try to clarify one point that I think the whole thing hinges on.

*I'm not exactly sure why you feel general AVEN members were left out of the loop so I'd like you to elaborate on which outreach areas you feel we are lacking in

I think you've made my point for me. Just before that in the same post, you said (emphasis mine)

Also maybe you missed this thread, (or perhaps my post since it was not the first post and thinking back on it I can see one might think the first post meant that there was no room for change) but we specifically asked all Aven members to point out any errors they saw on February 2.

You've also said re: pamphlet development and discussion:

I tried to find the thread this was all discussed on to show you, but its not coming up in searches and since I've switched coputers since then I don't have the link stored in my favorites. It was probably discussed in or around November because I know it was back when Jesh was a key player in the design of the pamphlets

I can't remember - it was discussed in a multi-avenite group chat session, but since that is what led to neuro suggesting the new title maybe he can recall

Information about pamphlets seems to be scattered across half a dozen threads in multiple fora, and much of the discussion about them has gone on off-AVEN, with no discussion brought back here. Non PT'ers can't directly reply to or be involved in PT discussions, and trying to run parallel threads in VEO makes things that much harder to keep track of. The pamphlets sticky in this forum is out of date and still refers to the old ones. As such there has been no clear centralized place for discussion of these pamphlets, no clear way to respond, and apparently not even a clear definition of what "final" means.

I think it's fair to say that it's difficult for any of us to keep track of--even, apparently, those directly involved. For those of us who aren't on AVEN every day and checking these threads judiciously, there's simply no easy way to keep track of what's going on. I feel this is true of most PT projects, actually. I just believe this one is particularly important to raise my voice about because it's meant to represent not only us but all asexuals and I don't feel it does.

This whole situation reminds me of the beginning of Hitchhikers' Guide.

"But the plans were on display..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a torch."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes, yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of The Leopard."

[retrophile]

I made a PNG logo, can you use this one?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c351/sideshowratt/aven.png