Insecurities for Allo’s partnered with an Ace

[Ceebs]

@Traveler40 You may get an incoming version in his own words at some point here... in the meantime, a thank you from The Great Beyond. The AVEN afterlife. 😂

 

[ryn2]

16 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

One of the conclusions I personally came to was that in some ways, I was looking for somewhat of a mother-like figure to take care of the more immature parts of me. I'm convinced that most of us fall into that to some degree when we enter an intimate relationship, given that maturing is a lifelong process; but I probably had a bit too much. Also, I felt some shame around my sexuality.

Interesting… this is almost word-for-word what my ex told me when he decided to break things off.

[Traveler40]

I’m just glad he didn’t use my real name 😳🤭

Thanks for that thanks Ceebs💕!

 

EDIT: AND I await his summary of course. 😉

[Ceebs]

25 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

I’m just glad he didn’t use my real name 😳🤭

Thanks for that thanks Ceebs💕!

Here's your full reply. 😂

 

 

[Traveler40]

Perfection! Thanks for making my day you two. I also love that he augmented his original thoughts. Folks in SPFA need to digest the points made. Speaking for myself, I identify with Tele’s truth. 
 

We can profess all we want that we aren’t out to fix anything, which apparently includes ourselves, but the truth perhaps is in trying to fix the relationship. Yep, I see that. Otherwise, why didn’t anyone cut bait?
 

Low expectations for getting our needs met. Yep, I own it and can’t speak for anyone else, but…yeah. I love my husband and our family, yet had I known then what I know now I would hope I’d have had the fortitude to do better for myself.
 

TELECASTER LIVES 🙌🏼

[Traveler40]

Note to self: Try not to tap out responses on your mobile in bright sunshine while rushed. 🤦🏻‍♀️
 

Holy hell I had to edit that like 5 times! 🤣
 

(and I’m still not sure it’s right - I’m out! Follow the crazy! 😁)

[ryn2]

I remember when invisible editing was turned off for a bit and some folks were all “but what do you have to hide?”

 

Um, my s**ty typing?  XD

[naturerhythms]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Interesting… this is almost word-for-word what my ex told me when he decided to break things off.

@ryn2, I have a sense this is a relatively common thing, even in allo-allo relationships; there's at least one therapy model out there (Imago Relationship Theory) based upon the assumptions that we often seek to make up for unmet childhood needs in our relationships. While your partner was willing to own some of it, I know that variations of "it's not you, it's me" still don't erase the pain of losing someone we care about.

 

@Traveler40 and @Ceebs, Thanks for recalling and obtaining that summary. Interesting take.

 

In my case, before we knew about asexuality, I felt it was my responsibility to a) take a look at whether there were things I might be doing to contribute to my partner's lack of interest, and b) see if there were things I could improve, and c) support her in exploring whether anything on her end might be the "cause" so long as she wished. I had no issues with doing that for a while.

 

But after we discovered asexuality and we gradually clarified what it meant around what each of us did/didn't want, it changed the conversation considerably. I then realized I would either have to (a) ignore my desires for partnered sex (lowering my expectations across the board), (b) get them met by modifying the relationship (tried for a short time), or (c) end the relationship. Fortunately my partner understood why I couldn't do (a), and we both had at least started to forgive each other by the time we got to (c) b/c we knew we had tried many things and given it our best shot. (The overall forgiveness/letting go process took quite a while.)

Edited April 13, 2022 by naturerhythms
clarify wording

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, naturerhythms said:

While your partner was willing to own some of it, I know that variations of "it's not you, it's me" still don't erase the pain of losing someone we care about.

Agreed.  Unfortunately breakups - at least in long-term relationships - where both parties roughly simultaneously arrive at “you know, maybe it would be best if we ended this” seem pretty rare.

[Mountain House]

29 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

but the truth perhaps is in trying to fix the relationship.

And

 

5 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

In my case, before we knew about asexuality, ...

Some of us were told there was something to fix, so, expectations lived in hope.

 

6 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

But after we discovered asexuality

We find out there's nothing to fix in the relationship.

 

So,

 

9 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

I would either have to a) ignore my desires for partnered sex (lowering my expectations across the board), b) get them met by modifying the relationship (tried for a short time), or c) ending the relationship.

 

I don't believe I had my expectation managed down so much as pulled out from under me.

[Traveler40]

Sure, but we all knew there was an issue which is Tele’s point. No one needed to understand there was a mismatch in orientations which, once discovered, gave us more empathy in decisions as opposed to less. I went celibate for 8 years while not knowing….

 

There were no boundaries and hope does spring eternal. No one lowered your expectations in the relationship, that’s not it. 

 

The point Tele is making is we learned to have lower expectations for having our needs met as children. 
 

Edit: Well, that and the bit about having an anxious attachment style so can’t stand to see the relationship end…

 

 

 

EDIT hours later: The above should have read “many sexuals who stay in mixed relationships…” versus “we”  in order to avoid the whiff of blanket statements. It wasn’t my intent and hopefully this clears it up.

[ryn2]

35 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

lI don't believe I had my expectation managed down so much as pulled out from under me.

I read it to mean the managing down part was in reference to childhood baggage/family-of-origin stuff, not to the adult relationship.

 

26 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

Well, that and the bit about having an anxious attachment style

Which also tends to start as a childhood-unmet-needs thing…

 

tl;dr, if I understood tele correctly, he was pointing out that the things we absorb in early childhood can come back to bite us decades later when we select partners accordingly.

[Traveler40]

25 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I read it to mean the managing down part was in reference to childhood baggage/family-of-origin stuff, not to the adult relationship.

 

Which also tends to start as a childhood-unmet-needs thing…

 

tl;dr, if I understood tele correctly, he was pointing out that the things we absorb in early childhood can come back to bite us decades later when we select partners accordingly.

That’s exactly right. I don’t have boundaries defined, and Tele is spot on. I’m so grateful for the refresher. “Ceebs the facilitator”? 😂 

 

EDIT: and “ryn2 the interpreter”? 🤣

[Ceebs]

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

TELECASTER LIVES 🙌🏼

He sure does. You know, I was absolutely terrified I was going to lose a friend back in 2019 when he was booted the first time. I was more depressed than I'd been in quite a while because I thought the end of his time on AVEN meant a slow dwindling of off-site communication and thus the end of... well, I didn't know what back then. An opportunity? Something that should've been but wasn't? Love? I was pretty sure it was love. Happily, it wasn't the end of any of that. But yep, even as a friend I'd say the same thing... AVEN lost someone with a certain perspective and way of explaining and expressing things. I'm still annoyed about it and I don't intend to stop being annoyed. 😂

 

1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

“Ceebs the facilitator”? 😂 

Happy to have that role though haha, yeah.

 

And yeah truthfully I've really no idea how childhood stuff couldn't shape the types of relationships we find ourselves in. Family is where we initially learn how to relate to and interact with people close to us. It would be bizarre if those early years had zero effect at all, IMO. I think it's natural to initially seek out relationships that seem like a positive but are actually reflecting and recreating negative things from our childhood, before (if we're lucky) finding something that interacts with those same aspects in a healthy, healing way. Live and learn.

[Mountain House]

Arguing with Tele again!  Cool. 

 

I don't think we should rely on a blanket pattern for describing how sexual people end up in these mixed relationships.

 

So, I did what any self-respecting INTP would do and researched. 👍

Why? Because I don't think I've ever felt this childhood lowering of expectations or anxious attachment. Assuming I could simply not be aware - off to the internet I go.

 

In general, until I'm really into someone, I would argue that I'm avoidant or secure in myself enough that I just don't need you (if that can be considered avoidant). By the time I am in deep with you I generally feel secure because I have vetted the crap out of you.

 

So I'll examine this:

  

19 hours ago, naturerhythms said:

why I had been attracted to an asexual partner

@naturerhythms had one conclusion that he was looking for a somewhat mother-like figure. Reflecting, I believe a big part of my attraction was that she "got" me, a rare thing in my world. My mom also "got" me so maybe I did find someone like my mom? Does that count?

 

We got married both as teens - because baby - because sex. We had 3 children in 3 years because more sex. School, jobs, kids, and so the waning of sex blended into the background. When we became aware that there was a mismatch we were told that this is normal and all we have to do is "find the spark".

 

1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

The point Tele is making is we learned to have lower expectations for having our needs met as children.

I've always been that independent kid that didn't expect much from anyone. I can't recall ever feeling that something I needed from my family wasn't met by my family. Of course, maybe we all feel that way.

 

Was I lead to believe, as Tele argues, that it is my job to fix relationships? Well, yeah. Societally and culturally. It is with the realization that my mixed relationship is normal but of a form barely understood by society and culture that I was prompted to redefine my relationship shape. Maybe, because my parents has a good marriage, I was lead to believe that I need to fix the relationship?

 

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Sure, but we all knew there was an issue which is Tele’s point.

Sure, but when we believe we are on the mend - and that might be the real smoke and mirrors for me...

 

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

No one needed to understand there was a mismatch in orientations

And that's just it. I did. Orientations was never the problem, until it was. We just need to "find the spark".

 

Also remember, I was never celibate, there was always a trickle.

[Traveler40]

Hmm. I hear that your relationship had a bit of a different trajectory given young pregnancy and back-to-back babies. That perhaps explains it.

 

I connect keenly with Tele’s view, but we married older without the shotgun. Additionally, there was ample time before kids and those bonds weren’t in place. Perhaps that differentiation boils down to circumstances in this case - and hey, the trickle may matter. At times I would have have given up most anything for a trickle…. 🤔 even a tickle…..haha
 

Tele’s point hit the bullseye for me in every way (🙌🏼). Yep, met husband at 29, dated for years before marriage, had kids years after that. To top it off, I am excruciatingly particular and thoughtful when pairing. Hmm, circumstances. (Wait, did I just repeat myself?)
 

Who knows, but you’re right, blankets don’t work. Point also to Mountain_House! 🙌🏼

[Traveler40]

16 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

I've always been that independent kid that didn't expect much from anyone.

Ditto, but I was trained to be so. I took to it naturally, but wouldn’t have had a choice had it not come easily.

[Traveler40]

25 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

In general, until I'm really into someone, I would argue that I'm avoidant or secure in myself enough that I just don't need you (if that can be considered avoidant). By the time I am in deep with you I generally feel secure because I have vetted the crap out of you.

Um - Ditto. So I’m rereading your post slowly this time. You are me in action. I have to fall with my head before I can fall with my heart. I need to trust you before I can love you basically. Same thing? 
 

The trust issues came from the same thing my lowered expectations for having my needs met came from. 
 

That’s just me though. Understood.

[Mountain House]

12 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Ditto, but I was trained to be so.

According to my mom, I trained everyone around me. 😄

 

Edit: ... as to how I was going to be.

[naturerhythms]

3 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Sure, but we all knew there was an issue which is Tele’s point.

In my case, it took quite a while to figure out something about our relationship was different, or at least to acknowledge it on a conscious level. For example, I had mis-learned so many things about women's sexuality, e.g., believing that in heterosexual relationships, it was natural for women to enjoy sex much less than men, want it much less, etc. Part of my realization process was meeting more people, especially women, who were very in touch with their sexuality (and sensuality in general) and expressive about it.

 

1 hour ago, Mountain House said:

I don't think we should rely on a blanket pattern for describing how sexual people end up in these mixed relationships.

Totally agree. I enjoy seeing when a few of us throw out different insights we've had re: our own journey, and each of them seems to resonate with someone else.

 

3 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Edit: Well, that and the bit about having an anxious attachment style so can’t stand to see the relationship end…

I've found attachment style useful for understanding many things I (and my current partner) do.

[Traveler40]

24 minutes ago, naturerhythms said:

For example, I had mis-learned so many things about women's sexuality,

And I knew I shouldn’t want it or if I did at least hide that fact. Men should lead and chase, women must wait for it…..

 

Damn. Head job from hell.

[Guest]

https://www.angeleswolderinstitute.com/schools-derived-from-the-german-new-medicine-the-origins-of-biological-decoding/

I have a friend who is learning about the above. She doesn't believe the pandemic has taken place and obviously did not get vaccinated.

I've taken this example because she's now moved on a school of thought that each illness you have is due to your personal family tree. ( I don't have the link at the moment).

If you take the time out to read the article you'll see there's a lot of interesting stuff and it certainly will resonate with some. I'm sure the other stuff she's into will too

This is just to say that there is truth in what Tele says, but not for all. Probably a good conversation to have in a pub over a beer.

   

[Ceebs]

10 hours ago, Mountain House said:

I don't think we should rely on a blanket pattern for describing how sexual people end up in these mixed relationships.

I don't think everyone follows the same pattern for sure, but I think it's very common for people who aren't aware of their needs or don't know how to express them to end up in mismatched relationships. Even that may not be true of everyone of course, but it seems to be the case frequently enough. For me, it was a case of I was young and inexperienced and uncomfortable enough with my own sexuality to almost prefer a situation with someone I could see wasn't going to pressure me, and I barely even knew how to conduct a relationship like a grown-up back then. Combine that with a family that didn't speak, having learnt patterns that you don't talk about anything difficult, and... well, there you are. Unfortunately my ex being someone who's kind and calm still didn't lead to being able to discuss relationship stuff openly. It's not the exact same experience anyone else here had, but a common denominator a decent portion of the time does seem to be not being able to voice your needs, or being confused about what they even are or should be.

[Guest]

Agreed Ceebs we're all different and thank goodness we can have different conversations and different opinions. Just imagine if they were all the same. 

For me who's lived in three different continents have learned the art of adaptability. But that's a completely different kettle of fish. 

[Ceebs]

46 minutes ago, Astutusdomina said:

Just imagine if they were all the same. 

Yeah that would be a boring world. Diversity of opinion and experience is a very good thing.

[ryn2]

Agreed, I didn’t take the earlier discussion to mean that everyone in a mixed relationship also has an anxious attachment style; just that attachment issues in general (which would include avoidant and fearful/anxious-avoidant styles as well) contribute to people getting into - and staying in - relationships that may not meet their adult needs effectively.

[Windmills of My Mind]

Blimey, this thread was pure gold from the get go and it just keeps getting better. It seems more efficient to say here that I love every single post in this thread rather than clicking 💙 on every contribution. Even a contribution from the beyond, and what a quality contribution it is. Thanks all, keep it coming.

 

@MyWifeIsAce I hope you are still on board and appreciate the way this is developing. A well deserved thank you for getting this ball rolling. Have some  🍰

 

 

[Ceebs]

The discussion of attachment styles made me go searching for one of those tests once again, because I love taking shit like that. 😂 I'm usually frustrated with them, though... lots of them seem focussed on the present only and ask exclusively about your romantic partner. Well, that changes depending on who I'm with. Which... I think over the long term, a relationship absolutely can have an effect and change things (for the better... or worse), but it's not going to flip like a switch, and other significant (non-romantic) relationships in your life have an effect as well.

 

Anyway, I found one here that asked about your mother and father, both growing up and presently, your romantic partner, and just 'other people' in general. It gave me anxious/preoccupied, which is no surprise. I remember someone posted a link to a different attachment styles test a few years ago (not in SPFA specifically, one of the other forums) and it was a crap test. I took it in the middle of my last godawful mess of a relationship breaking down (not my marriage) and it asked only about your partner. The thread was still running several months later after Tele and I were A Thing, I took it again, and in that relatively small space of time, supposedly my attachment style had changed to secure. Yeah uh, don't think that's how that works lol. Did I feel secure in my relationship and much better than I did before? Yes, and it's changed even more since, in definitely healthy ways. Had the way I relate overall to significant people in my life completely changed in a few months back then? Incredibly unlikely. And apparently I'm still anxious/preoccupied as a whole, so. I also think there was a time (teens, early to mid 20s) I almost tried to force myself into the avoidant realm. I idealised isolation and not needing anyone and tried very hard to outwardly to appear closed off, which is also a product of certain childhood experiences (not just family ones), and I imagine also depression since that started at about 11 for me. Build those walls. Which turns out to be incredibly damaging for someone wired for very strong and intimate emotional connection. There are still people I know from longer ago in my life (nobody particularly close) who probably think of me as cold and aloof. It's interesting the things we do to protect ourselves. Natural, though.

[Ceebs]

Also it's interesting you brought up MBTI, @Mountain House. It's pseudoscience, but it's interesting and still potentially informative and occasionally useful pseudoscience. Based in rational attempts at understanding human psychology at least, unlike stuff like... oh, astrology? 🙄 I spent a bunch of years in my 20s very immersed in online MBTI and related Jungian psychology communities. (Being the massive nerd I am, I actually discovered MBTI at about the age of nine. I went to the public library and brought home a massive stack of books on the topic.)

 

Anyway. Younger me tried hard to be the INTJ or INTP I wanted to be, but I am an INFP through and through. 😂 To be taken with a grain of salt, but still. I've said something to Tele a bunch of times about how the only (or at least main) point of life to me, of really being alive, is to feel things, to have emotions.

 

15 hours ago, Mountain House said:

So, I did what any self-respecting INTP would do and researched. 👍

Yes researching things is one of my very favourite activities in the universe lol. Researching and learning information? Hell yes. Actually putting anything into action and doing things with what you've learnt? Yeah good luck with that one, Ceebs. 😂

[Traveler40]

So I had to Google, found 16personalities online and did the free test. I’m ESTJ-A apparently. Now I must go learn about that and then promptly forget it. Haha

 

EDIT: For the unedumacated folks, thats 

extroverted, observant, thinking, judging and assertive. 🤔.
 

No wonder my Mom told me I had all the personality traits of a man which made her uncomfortable. 🙄🤣

 

Yah, have to work, but good talk Ceebs. I like the quizzes too.