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Understanding Asexuality: From a Sexual to Other Sexuals


Mark from the OCD board

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Thanks Mark, I really enjoyed that. It's always confounded me how some sexuals seem to understand it so easily (like your family) and others can't grasp it at all. Perhaps it's just due to the diversity of the experience of sexual desire among sexuals. I really do hope you stay for at least as long as I'm here. :D I suspect there's a lot we could learn from you.

*Nominates Mark for a :vis: *

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That was awesome Mark, especially the eyebrows analogy (though I actually did have a friend in elementary school who paid a great deal of attention to eyebrows for some reason). You have quite an ability to explain things and have it make perfect sense despite their complexity.

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Mark from the OCD board

Thanks, SpirallingSnowy, Drazo, square peg, and agentkgb for the additional kind words. :)

@ agentkgb: There has to be someone somewhere who really does get hot for eyebrows. "Infinte diversity in infinite combinations"... ;)

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Truly awesome! Thank you so much for sharing this! I sent it to my sexual friends (well, the ones who know about me).

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Here lies the problem. We believe that asexuals are not like "us," so "they" must have something wrong with them. They seem to shove their sexuality (actually, their asexuality) in our faces, and that offends whatever Victorian morality still haunts us. Even worse, if an asexual dares not show "proper" sexual interest in us, we are furious. We want to get laid; who the hell are they to say no? How very sad.

I do agree with you when you say is hard " to accept emotionally even though we may accept it intellectually." Because that is definitely mi case.

:)

But I am a little ofended about the way you represented sexual people. I would never say "I want to get laid; who the hell are you to say no?" that sounds like rape to me. :(

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Mark from the OCD board

Glad to hear it, Hpets!

Here lies the problem. We believe that asexuals are not like "us," so "they" must have something wrong with them. They seem to shove their sexuality (actually, their asexuality) in our faces, and that offends whatever Victorian morality still haunts us. Even worse, if an asexual dares not show "proper" sexual interest in us, we are furious. We want to get laid; who the hell are they to say no? How very sad.

I do agree with you when you say is hard " to accept emotionally even though we may accept it intellectually." Because that is definitely mi case.

:)

But I am a little ofended about the way you represented sexual people. I would never say "I want to get laid; who the hell are you to say no?" that sounds like rape to me. :(

No offense was intended, particularly since I am a sexual person. I am sorry if anything I wrote came off the wrong way.

Rape is when someone forces a physical act on someone who says no. I was talking about a sexual person's thoughts here, not a sexual person's actions. Many people would have such a perfectly human thought but not do anything about it; few people are actual rapists. In addition, the people I had in mind would have no idea what asexuality is and would misconstrue the lack of interest in sex as a lack of interest in them.

Perhaps I should not have used the collective "we" in that sentence; that may be the part that is too strong.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Mark... I really enjoyed reading your article, and appreciate you sharing it.

The eyebrows analogy was very interesting. If I'm being a total nitpicker here (and I frequently can be) wouldn't we have to factor in the element that eyebrow licking, on another planet, ensured the survival of the species? That it was the usual way to pass on one's genes and, in effect, live forever? I mean, if you decide not to have your own children, you're commiting genetic suicide; a choice which places you firmly in a slim minority. I realise that science may be able to offer you your own children without you having sex, but that's a highly unusual option. And, surely, if you feel an urge to reproduce, but lack an accompanying urge to have sex to facilitate that reproduction, it's not really surprising that you may be thought of as a bit of a freak.

I'm speaking as an asexual woman here... playing devil's advocate to a degree, I suppose. As a gay man, I'm sure you've had the 'survival instinct' argument chucked at you many times, too. My response to people who've questioned my lack of desire for my own biological progeny, has been to tell them that surely we're all vessels of Nature... if She's decided to prune the tree of life by making me asexual, or making others homosexual, then that doesn't make my state of being any less 'natural' than a regular heterosexual. That usually shuts them up.

But - and I feel bad for stating this, but I suppose I'm amongst like-minded souls here so hey, I'll do it - if I am honest with myself and I analyse my state of being with the same objectiveness that I would apply to any other person, I can't help wondering if my existence as an asexual indicates that my genes are, for want of a better word, undesirable. Undesirable in the sense that I know they will die out due to my orientation and lack of reproductive drive, so does that mean that Nature has cleverly sifted and sorted me from the mass of 'normal' people with 'desirable' genes that are suitable to be passed on?

If I'm honest, I think that the above hypothesis is true. I'm not saying that I'm terribly deficient or anything, but I'm not cut from the common mould, and it does seem to me that reproduction and continuation of genes is chiefly reserved for the 'normal' or 'average' type of person. (I don't mean to in any way disparage either fellow asexuals, or sexuals here, I'm just thinking out loud). What I'm trying to say here is that Nature seems to want to cultivate, and enable the continuation of, the 'fittest' genes. 'Fittest' as in most useful in this life, in this environment - genes that will facitilate the smoothest, easiest passage through the already difficult minefield of living.

Think of it like this: I'm an asexual, an atheist, of depressive and frequently melancholic frame of mind, somewhat addictive personality, prone to feeling too deeply, worrying to the point of obsessiveness, and very much the typical 'bleeding heart' tree-hugging liberal. I can't draw any measure of comfort from the idea of a God, because I can't rationally accept it, so life to me frequently seems a senseless and cruel escapade - a finite existence, never properly explained, locked on a spinning orb in a solar system, the boundaries of which the human race will likely never explore before dying out, in an allegedly endless universe which I will never, ever understand. I will never have any of the answers that I want. It's quite bloody maddening. The only thing that saves me from total nutzoidery is having a dark sense of humour.

But, do you see what I mean? My genes aren't tailored for this deal. Even if I wanted children of my own, I would never dream of having them. I couldn't inflict this on another person, who might likely share much of my personality, and react to life in the same way. So I really cannot dispute the wisdom of whatever force, be it Nature or other, that has given me an orientation which means my genes will die out. It makes perfect, beautiful sense to me. There's a lovely logic in it. It's like the Golden Ratio, you know? When you look at a face that you find beautiful, it's because it is mathematically even - it's a sum of perfect averages. In that sense, beauty created by nature is about averages. What is average is beautiful, what is beautiful is desirable. Average is desirable.

I know I'm rambling, so I'd better round this off. Perhaps this is why people like you, as a gay man, and myself, as an asexual woman, are frequently ridiculed or persecuted by the heterosexual Regulars. Maybe it's just the natural arrogance of those possessing the 'fit' genes towards those of us that don't have them. I'm not saying that they're better than we are, only that they are more suited to the environment in which we live - in effect, they own the future. It might be kind to label people like us 'special' (personally, the word gives me hives) but the irony is that Special or Peculiar or Extraordinary is not the stuff that survival thrives upon, and that's apparently what our bodies were chiefly designed for: survival and continuation. And survival favours Average. If you're heterosexual, of middling intelligence, God-fearing, and married with a couple of children, then in this particular reality we all inhabit, you're most likely a winner. Through heredity, you've bagged the ticket of eternal life.

...and now I think I'll have a smoke.

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Mark from the OCD board

What a great post, feldspar! I am not sure my response will do it justice, but I will certainly try.

Since I am not an evolutionary biologist or geneticist, I am afraid that I can only answer your queries as a layman with limited knowledge. :( I hope those with a scientific background will jump in and help...

I don't think genetic survival of the fittest applies to sexual orientation. Rather, heterosexual sexuxals are the people most likely to engage in frequent sex with the opposite sex, and thus, by the law of averages, their gene for heterosexuality will be passed on in far greater numbers. Homosexuals and asexuals (at least the ones with self-awareness) are less likely to have frequent sex with the opposite sex, and thus they are less likely to pass on their genes. That means that the fewer male/female encounters among homosexuals and asexuals and the recessive gay/asexual genes passed on in heterosexual encounters may be solely responsible for passing on homosexuality and asexuality.

Next, if you substitute "homosexual" for "asexual," your description of yourself could also be a description of me!

I'm an asexual, an atheist, of depressive and frequently melancholic frame of mind, somewhat addictive personality, prone to feeling too deeply, worrying to the point of obsessiveness, and very much the typical 'bleeding heart' tree-hugging liberal. I can't draw any measure of comfort from the idea of a God, because I can't rationally accept it, so life to me frequently seems a senseless and cruel escapade - a finite existence, never properly explained, locked on a spinning orb in a solar system, the boundaries of which the human race will likely never explore before dying out, in an allegedly endless universe which I will never, ever understand. I will never have any of the answers that I want. It's quite bloody maddening. The only thing that saves me from total nutzoidery is having a dark sense of humour.

So... In a world where nothing makes sense anyway, why should we rationalize about why our sexuality is what it is? (There are ample theories in the gay community about why we gays are supposedly superior to heterosexuals, and I have seen plenty of cries of asexual superiority on this board.) Why not forget the theories and say instead that we are who we are (which gay people have been saying all along--and perhaps asexuals have been as well). It is the quality of our relationships and what we do to make the world better for others that truly define us. Sexual orientation is very important, but it is not the deciding factor.

As far as religion goes... I once met a deist who believed that gays and lesbians were part of God's plan. By celestial decree, they are the loving adoptive parents of unwanted children, the doting aunts and uncles, and so on. I can take his ideas even further... In the past in Italy, for example, I have heard that in large families (many siblings) there was often one son or daughter who had never really taken an interest in the opposite sex and ended up being the one to take care of the parents in their old age. There are also people whose lack of a biological drive to procreate leads them to be explorers, scientists, teachers, writers... Asexuals can be substituted for gay and lesbian in any of the above examples.

I used to say, for example, that Jane Goodall was such an obvious lesbian and Morrissey such an obvious queen. Now that I know about asexuality...

As far as your genes or mine being undesirable... Think of all the heterosexual parents who are murderers, rapists, war mongers, racists... To say nothing of birth defects and still births... Being a heterosexual sexual does not mean you are automatically the right sort of person to pass on your genes--just as being asexual or homosexual does not necessarily mean you are either. There are all kinds in this world, and there are heterosexuals/homosexuals/asexuals whose genes are desirbale and heterosexuals/homosexuals/asexuals whose genes are not.

Besides, genes are also not an all of nothing affair. For example,

1. I have above average intelligence; so do my parents and sister.

2. I am a good writer/professor/actor/singer. My father, mother, and sister have all done amateur acting and all sing in their church choir. Further, my father is a retired speech professor and my sister teaches math, music, and religion in a Lutheran junior high school.

3. I will always look around ten to fifteen years younger than my age. Take a look at my avatar: I am 41. My students think I am around 30/32. My father is 72 and looks about 55; my mother is 69 and looks about 55; my maternal grandmother died at 87 but looked about 65.

On the other hand...

1. Mental illness is also in my genes, and I have OCD. In my extended family we have others with OCD, people with bipolar disorder, and people with undiagnosed issues who are in jail for murder or are alcholics and drug users.

2. I have terrible teeth just like my mother.

3. My paternal grandmother, a few of her brothers, and a few in my extended family had Alzheimer's. My parents have been lucky since they do not have it, but I will always have to worry.

4. Both grandfathers died of heart attacks, and my paternal grandmother also had a bad heart--as does my father. My mother is on heart medication. Another thing to worry about.

Genes are a whole package, with people inheriting desirable and undesirable traits.

Finally, let's look at this through the lens of science fiction (my favorite lens)...

Many years ago, a friend of mine who writes science fiction created a world in which everyone was gay and lesbian. The men were on one side of the planet and the women on the other. All reproduction was through donated material inserted into machines, and since those genes came from homosexuals most babies were born homosexual. Those with recessive genes for heterosexuality were genetically resequenced. Thus, in a fictional world where all reproduction was homosexual, heterosexuality was a recessive trait.

My friend is bisexual, and she satirizes as much in gay and lesbian society as she does in heterosexual society; consequently, her planet was hardly a gay paradise. But that's a topic for a different thread...

Your take on eyebrow world is as good as any. After all, unlike my friend, I did not think out this world in detail for a science fiction novella.

If you like, you can give eyebrow world an asexual spin. Perhaps eyebrow world mirrors my friend's world, and all reproduction is carried out through donors and machines. In fact, perhaps eyebrow world is 100% asexual--but, for whatever reason, people have chosen to keep their ancestral eyebrow fetish. Maybe there is a religious reason for doing so. Maybe it is a biological imperative in this humanoid but not human race. Maybe it is a way to honor the ancestors. Or maybe it's a way of being sexual (in a sense) and getting off without any danger of passing on sexually-transmitted diseases or getting pregnant.

Who knows?

Have fun with this stuff and make it your own. You don't have to take it too seriously. :)

Finally, what I always tell people with OCD whom I help through my volunteer work... OCD is not a divine punishment or something you deserve or something you asked for. It simply is. It's the same with homosexuality and asexuality. They simply are.

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Kawaii_Neko

Hear, hear!! :D *claps and cheers enthusiastically*

What a wonderful set of posts, Mark and feldspar. You really brought out and addressed, I think, a lot of the emotions and uncertainties that we've all faced as sexual minorities. Thank you both for such well thought out information!

Mark, I just wanted to give you a big hug *HUG* for the wonderful insights you bring to our boards! It is a pleasure reading your posts.

^_^

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Hear, hear!! :D *claps and cheers enthusiastically*

What a wonderful set of posts, Mark and feldspar. You really brought out and addressed, I think, a lot of the emotions and uncertainties that we've all faced as sexual minorities. Thank you both for such well thought out information!

Mark, I just wanted to give you a big hug *HUG* for the wonderful insights you bring to our boards! It is a pleasure reading your posts.

^_^

I agree and this on a freakin' holiday... I hadn't planned on learning or thinking at all today :twisted: Can't escape it on Aven though!! :D

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My wife just put me on to this site today. She is a beautiful woman who I love and is asexual. Is it possible for you people to be horny for a short time and then not? If not then she lied and tricked me into getting married and having 2 children. If there are any more people in my possition let me know if you have been able to make things work.

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Mark from the OCD board
My wife just put me on to this site today. She is a beautiful woman who I love and is asexual. Is it possible for you people to be horny for a short time and then not? If not then she lied and tricked me into getting married and having 2 children. If there are any more people in my possition let me know if you have been able to make things work.

Hi, nogood!

You might want to start a new thread instead of posting on this old one; a new thread will get you a lot more attention and many more replies.

I am not asexual and cannot speak for asexuals, but I can say that just as some people do not realize that they are gay or lesbian until after they are married, some do not realize that they are asexual until after they are married. Society is what it is, and people often deny what they are even to themselves out of fear of the repercussions of not fitting into the heterosexual/sexual mainstream.

Also... Here are some great threads in which asexuals and sexuals discuss marriage and other issues. Some of the sexuals who post here are indeed married to asexuals.

You are most definitely not alone--and neither is your wife. Welcome to the board!

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic...25502ab7e1be92a

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic...25502ab7e1be92a

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic...25502ab7e1be92a

http://asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic...25502ab7e1be92a

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Hear, hear!! :D *claps and cheers enthusiastically*

What a wonderful set of posts, Mark and feldspar. You really brought out and addressed, I think, a lot of the emotions and uncertainties that we've all faced as sexual minorities. Thank you both for such well thought out information!

Mark, I just wanted to give you a big hug *HUG* for the wonderful insights you bring to our boards! It is a pleasure reading your posts.

^_^

I agree entirely. ^_^ Thank you so much to both of you. Your posts made for some very interesting Sunday morning reading.

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As far as religion goes... I once met a deist who believed that gays and lesbians were part of God's plan. By celestial decree, they are the loving adoptive parents of unwanted children, the doting aunts and uncles, and so on. I can take his ideas even further... In the past in Italy, for example, I have heard that in large families (many siblings) there was often one son or daughter who had never really taken an interest in the opposite sex and ended up being the one to take care of the parents in their old age. There are also people whose lack of a biological drive to procreate leads them to be explorers, scientists, teachers, writers... Asexuals can be substituted for gay and lesbian in any of the above examples.

For some reason, reading that made me feel so much better about this whole thing. I am agnostic and so neither believe nor disbelieve in 'God' as such, but the idea that we asexuals have a place in nature, that we have a biological purpose other than simply to stem the ever-growing population (which is what I have been coming to believe), is a nice one, and I thank you for pointing it out to me.

Thanks also for the essay. The lengths that you have gone to in order to understand us encourages me :)

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helana12_03

Thank you. Wow, that's awesome :). Way to go...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Amazing, you are a fantastic writer. I couldn't have said it better. All that you write is clear, makes sense and is logical.

Good job. I'm saving this article.

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Feldspar and Mark:

We once (probably more than once) had a long discussion about the genetic implications of asexuality (homosexuality can also be inserted). It went into a lot of detail but the long and the short is that it is not all that easy to say that asexuality is an undesirable trait.

In theory, even if you do not breed, you could still get your genes into the next generation by helping your brother(or sister or cousin) with his children and contribute to their success. Him being your brother, you have a lot of genes in common so each of your nieces and nephews are carrying a significant amount of your genes. By not having children yourself, you will free up resources (time/money/personal attention) that can be spent on those nieces and nephews and make them more successfull in the future. Those very same nieces and nephews who are carrying your genes.

FYI. Here is that thread I was talking about. The initial question that started the discussion came from a different angle but it still answers some of the questions you posed very well. It's full of answers far more eloquent than mine.

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewt...886&start=0

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I told my mom about my asexuality yesterday. I know she wants to support me in whatever, but I can tell that she doesn't quite understand how this can be an orientation. She still sees me as straight but with a low sex drive, and doesn't see why I'd want to place this isolating label of asexual on myself.

I was fairly surprised by her response, since this was my first encounter with skepticism (Other than her, I've only told two very close friends and my boyfriend). It just seems so natural to me that some people don't feel sexual attraction to either gender... I'd forgotten that for many sexuals it isn't such an easy thing to accept.

Anyway, I've been looking for a good article to show my mom (I have a lot of difficulty articulating important things like this to her), and I think this one's a perfect way to start explaining why I don't want to just keep this to myself.

Thank you, Mark!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Mark from the OCD board

And thank you for the kind words, Miala, helana12_02, and yay!

Why shouldn't I go to great lengths to understand all of you, stationary? As a multiple minority who also wishes to be understood, I know how painful it is to be misunderstood and stereotyped.

I think I should avoid the threads on homosexuality, JustSam. I have seen a few posts here I did not care for, and even if the bulk of the board defends gay people I really, really don't want to see the negative stuff. I already have to defend gays from right-wing Christians on my OCD board, and that is all I can stomach.

Hpets: I hope it goes well with your mom. So glad I was able to help. :)

As for what I have been up to...

Here is a copy of a letter I have just e-mailed to friends in Florida, South Carolina, California, Australia, France, and Italy...

I teach ESL (English as a Second Language) to university students.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello, all.

The last time I wrote, I was planning to teach six summer classes, three each semester. By choice I now have eight, four each semester. After the first week of the first summer semester I am already dead tired. I don't have much of a social life here in New York and I do need the money, so this is a good thing.

I always do fun things with my students during the summer, and I will even be showing two episodes of Friends to my oral communication students for vocabulary/idioms/slang in context, this in addition to listening and predicting exercises. (It took a while to put together Friends-based lessons.) We will watch these shows scene by scene without subtitles, with activities between scenes. At the end, we will be TV critics.

Another class will do similar work with pop music, including some of the music from Rent. After we analyze the lyrics, they'll hear each chosen selection while following the words on the photocopied script I have prepared; I have the CD of the original 1996 Broadway cast. They will then see each chosen song in the 2005 movie without the script or subtitles.

In my high-level reading/writing/grammar class, I have begun teaching my students about American body language so that they can do their eavesdropping assignment for me. I showed a scene from Degrassi: The Next Generation so students could practice analyzing body language in groups.

Here is the breakdown by country for my classes:

Advanced reading/writing/grammar:

Korea: 9

Japan: 3

China: 2

Chile: 1

Dominican Republic: 1

Syria: 1

Taiwan: 1

Intermediate oral communication (class 1):

Korea: 8

China: 2

Japan: 1

Chile: 1

Russia: 1

Turkey: 1

Intermediate oral communication (class 2):

Korea: 8

Japan: 2

Mexico: 2

Chile: 1

China: 1

Taiwan: 1

Thailand: 1

Turkey: 1

Graduate course in oral communication:

Korea: 6

Japan: 4

Taiwan: 2

Brazil: 1

Greece: 1

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Freed_Spirit

Good to see you back, wonderful Mark. Wow you're working hard, I hope they all appreciate you and bring you apples (big apples? :D ). I think using TV, songs and all is a great way to learn language - I pick up a lot from subtitled foreign movies and TV and manage to get some good slang and swearing!

You rock and AVEN loves you.

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