A sexual person hating sexuality?

[Mark from the OCD board]

Hey, Chaku:

Bro, I do know lonliness and feeling like no one else understands. I was once in the closet, in a Fundamentalist church, and suffering from untreated OCD. If, at that time, you had told me that I would make it to 41, be much happier, and do things with my life, I would have laughed in your face. At the time, I wanted to die in my sleep and be done with everything.

I hear you, Chaku. I really hear you. In no way do I minimize or mock your pain. I only wish I could sit next to you and talk to you in person so that you could see in my face that I mean what I say.

I'm not going to continue to argue my points about what is and is not evil with you, as I don't think it is productive--but I will continue to listen and post if you like.

Since the issues you have fall into the same family as OCD, is it possible that these moral dilemmas are obsessive in nature? Are you having a hard time leaving this mode of thinking even though many people have tried to help? Humor me, please. Take a look at this article by Steven Phillipson, a well known and well published behavior therapist here in New York City. In it, he writes about a condition called Scrupulosity (a form of OCD which I have had). See if anything jumps out at you. Unless you are religious, you do not have to pay too much attention to the parts about religion; even atheists can suffer from Scrupulosity.

Like all other mental issues, if this sounds like a possibility--It may or may not be--it is not your fault, not something you asked for, and not something you need to be ashamed of. Happily, it is treatable. I recovered from it and know others who have.

http://www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson10.php

[chaku]

Sukuun, ultimately refusing someone the right to an equal relationship because their ugliness makes them not compatible with you is refusing them equality because you see them as ugly. Otherwise, you would treat someone as an equal regardless of how they look.

Hmmm... I'm also pale and thin, it is just part of my genetics. Is it unhealthy to be me?

Another thing, I am on disability. I AM disabled. So, if you are talking about sickness and weakness as something to avoid then you are talking about me.

[chaku]

Mark, I read your article on this other kind of OCD and find it interesting. But, to me, there really are some things that as simply too evil for me to ever allow myself to do. I find murder, theft, and sexuality to all fall under that category, that order being worst to still not good enough to act upon.

Why is it impossible to believe sexuality is evil and worthless without it being the result of an illness? I mean, racism is evil and worthless too and they both have the same goals.... To remove "unwanted" people from the gene pool.

[chaku]

Actually, IMO, it's based out of resourcefulness, not hatred.

P.V.P., You had a very long post and I will look through it again for more information, but on the first read it seems like this was the basic point of what you are saying.

What is resourcefulness, really? Once upon a time not to long ago, we (USA) believed that being resourceful included treating black people as slaves because it was more "useful" to our society and was better for humanity.

What we neglected to do at the time, was realize that treating these people less because we thought their appearance to be ugly was wrong.

Ultimately, effectiveness doesn't matter. Abuse is effective, rape is effective, even murder and theft can be effective. The important thing is morality. As effectiveness without morality is worthless.

[chaku]

Let me just put this one thing across as clear as I can.

I am inneffective. I am on disability. I've spent many years afraid to leave my home and even more years being suicidal. I've never had a job because I'm too afraid to do so and would rather die.

So, we are talking about me too as well as everyone else like me. Just to put a point of reference out there.

Why do I and every other person who displays weakness deserve less? I still want to be a kind person. I believe in kindness.

Hitler had a wife, certainly. But, I don't deserve what the rest of humanity does (including Hitler) because I am weak? Think about what you are saying.

[Mark from the OCD board]

Mark, I read your article on this other kind of OCD and find it interesting. But, to me, there really are some things that as simply too evil for me to ever allow myself to do. I find murder, theft, and sexuality to all fall under that category, that order being worst to still not good enough to act upon.

Why is it impossible to believe sexuality is evil and worthless without it being the result of an illness? I mean, racism is evil and worthless too and they both have the same goals.... To remove "unwanted" people from the gene pool.

I apologize if I am not being clear. I am on Spring Break and am being a bad boy by staying up waaaaaaay past my bedtime. After this post, I am going to have to go to bed (if I don't want to fall asleep on top of my computer). ;)

It's absolutely fine if you never want to have sex, and it's absolutely fine if you believe sexuality evil. Those are not issues; I was merely arguing an opposing view but, as I said, I don't think it is productive for me to do so any longer and I will stop. We can agree to disagree. Clearly, I never meant to imply that anyone who does not share my view does so out of mental illness.

I posted a link to the article because I am concerned that, if you have Scrupulosity and thus an overconcern with moral issues, you may be burning yourself out by ruminating at the expense of living your life. I know that I did that.

I also know that things feel very bad for you right now, but I want you to hear me when I say that the horrors your mind paints are not always what is really out there. Even if you don't have Scrupulosity, you do have depression and social phobia, and that is a world of painted horror right there. I won't be naive and say it is all in your mind, as there is plenty of evil and injustice in the world; however, what depressed people/people like you and me who fall into this family of mental illness often fail to see is how much good and justice co-exist with evil and injustice. We ignore the good and dwell only on the bad.

Sometimes you simply have to create good and justice yourself--and that, I believe, is the highest form of morality. When you help a child or a senior citizen, when you make a loved one happy, when you do volunteer work, you do so much to fight evil and injustice. A Jewish proverb says "Save one person and save the world."

The good is real.

[GetUnconscious]

Yeah, I understand this is not an anti-sexual site (I don't think those exist) and I'm not trying to force my views upon anyone else. Hopefully no one does the same to me.

But, yes, I think you got the gist of what I was saying about the very concept of "beauty" being evil to me. Robbing people of equality because you think they are ugly is just wrong in my mind. I don't see how people can justify it to themselves.

I believe physical beauty/ugliness should not exist, just as racism should not exist. Yet, as a 23 year old guy physical beauty seems 100% ingrained into my sexuality and I can't control who I find attractive and who I find unattractive.

As far as I see it all people of any appearance should be treated as equals.

I think about your example of a guy exploiting a woman for popularity, that is more of a strike against the person who made the choice to hurt another person than a fundamental evil within sexuality.

From my perspective, if I rationally look at my sexuality and how it functions... I see a great amount of moral problems that are consistently present and things that disgust me to the point of believing if this is how the rest of our species exists, I wouldn't mind if we just stopped reproducing and disappeared as a species.

Without judgement there would be no value or meaning to anything. Why is it wrong to judge something for its worth? You should embrace the feelings that you have and try to become a more beautiful person yourself. BEAUTY is not EVIL. One can only say that a persons misuse of their beauty or their intention are EVIL...not the beauty itself. Im a very sexual person, but way beyond that I am a devourer of beauty...I see beauty as a very holistic, soul enriching thing. Art is beauty. Life is beauty. If youre restricting beauty to that of the physical, maybe it is you who could do with advancing in your thoughts?

Look at it this way. You hire two chefs, they both make the same dish for you. One of the Chefs recipe turns out absolutely awful and the taste is disgusting. Would you smile and pretend that it tasted just as good or be honest? People do have different tastes and I think we should honour that and act upon it. Life is too short to live beyond honesty...

[chaku]

Yeah, I understand this is not an anti-sexual site (I don't think those exist) and I'm not trying to force my views upon anyone else. Hopefully no one does the same to me.

But, yes, I think you got the gist of what I was saying about the very concept of "beauty" being evil to me. Robbing people of equality because you think they are ugly is just wrong in my mind. I don't see how people can justify it to themselves.

I believe physical beauty/ugliness should not exist, just as racism should not exist. Yet, as a 23 year old guy physical beauty seems 100% ingrained into my sexuality and I can't control who I find attractive and who I find unattractive.

As far as I see it all people of any appearance should be treated as equals.

I think about your example of a guy exploiting a woman for popularity, that is more of a strike against the person who made the choice to hurt another person than a fundamental evil within sexuality.

From my perspective, if I rationally look at my sexuality and how it functions... I see a great amount of moral problems that are consistently present and things that disgust me to the point of believing if this is how the rest of our species exists, I wouldn't mind if we just stopped reproducing and disappeared as a species.

Without judgement there would be no value or meaning to anything. Why is it wrong to judge something for its worth? You should embrace the feelings that you have and try to become a more beautiful person yourself. BEAUTY is not EVIL. One can only say that a persons misuse of their beauty or their intention are EVIL...not the beauty itself. Im a very sexual person, but way beyond that I am a devourer of beauty...I see beauty as a very holistic, soul enriching thing. Art is beauty. Life is beauty. If youre restricting beauty to that of the physical, maybe it is you who could do with advancing in your thoughts?

Look at it this way. You hire two chefs, they both make the same dish for you. One of the Chefs recipe turns out absolutely awful and the taste is disgusting. Would you smile and pretend that it tasted just as good or be honest? People do have different tastes and I think we should honour that and act upon it. Life is too short to live beyond honesty...

I agree that judgment is an important thing... That is why I used my own judgment to realize that my sexuality was not treating people fairly.

You say that judging something's worth is the only valuable thing about life, yet hating sexuality is very clearly judging sexuality's worth, so that view is counterproductive.

How do you determine "worth" from someone's appearance? Could you explain that?

In my eyes you can't and shouldn't do such a thing because it is shallow, inaccurate, and evil.

[Sukuun]

Sukuun, ultimately refusing someone the right to an equal relationship because their ugliness makes them not compatible with you is refusing them equality because you see them as ugly. Otherwise, you would treat someone as an equal regardless of how they look.

What i really said did not include thinking someone ugly. Rather if it is not compatible for me to be with someone then i shouldn't just date them or just have sex with someone just to give them a fair oppurtunity. And that goes for people that are drug addicts, or gang bangers, or any other non-compatible person. And i will not go date everyone, or have sex with everyone, who comes knocking, i have morals too! Not to mention, not thinking everyone is sexually is a good thing. What about those who are sexually attracted to children? Or the sex-addict who thinks almost everyone is attractive, and could potentially spread STDs like wildfire? Maybe it's a good thing I DON"T think he's attractive. I am protecting myself from potential harm, physical and emotional. It's safer to be partial, if you think about it.

Hmmm... I'm also pale and thin, it is just part of my genetics. Is it unhealthy to be me?

Again not what i said. What i said was about how I think when i look at people, it is ingrained for me look at the healthy perspective of someone's appearance not the "beauty " factor of their appearrance. And i too am pale, but not "TOO" pale, as was my example, I get enough sunshine to photosynthesize sufficient amounts of vitamin D, but not so much to put myself at great risk for skin cancer. My brother is 6 feet, and only 135 pounds, and he is too skinny, and it is a genetic predispostion for him to be too skinny. But not because it's unattractive, but for health reasons. Being underweight compromises the immune system, making one more suseptible to infection, for example. Now for me personally, I would not date someone who was intentionally being irresponsible with their body. Meaning if they were too skinny because they were anorexic, no i wouldn't date them, but i would be their friend and try to help. If someone was using illegal drugs, i wouldn't date them , but i would do my best to guide them to help. Now, if i was already in a relationship with someone that developed a problem like this, i would NOT dump them because of it right away. I would stick it out for as long as i could, but would consider my own emotional health, and others in my life.

Another thing, I am on disability. I AM disabled. So, if you are talking about sickness and weakness as something to avoid then you are talking about me.

Also, not what i said. My sister is also on disability. She suffered for many years from paranoid schizophrenia and panic disorder, and was healed by the grace of GOD, but she still suffers from debilitating chronic pain, depression, and anxiety disorders. Never has this limited her in relationships, except by HER own choice. She left an engagement with a very kind, responsible, good-looking, man (a pilot, by the way), for reason only she knows, but has said so much as "it's was about her, not him". Although they are still friends, and the possiblity of a relationship is not out of question.

I hate to to say it but you were getting really combative and defensive. You were twisting words i said and making them to mean not what they were intended but to suit your best arguement. I tried to not get personal here, but it seems that in order for me to be legitamate, i had to pull out the heavy artillary. I understand the world much better than you realize. I also have OCD, of a more suble nature. It doesn't usually disrupt my life, and certainly not to extent that Mark may have suffered. It's ironically more touch-related in nature, like if i scratch one side of my face, i have the urge to touch the other side. I have a routine of touching all sides of my nail on each finger, and can't relax if i don't do it on every finger. Massage has been quite therapeutic for me, and why i am such an advocate for massage and other "alternative" medicines. Which if i may suggest could be helpful in your life as well, in addition what ever else use do, NOT as a replacement for your current treatment.

As some guy once said some time, "I am not prejudice, I hate everyone equally." Not that i feel this way, its just kind of a funny sentiment.

[chaku]

Sukuun, I'm also six feet tall and around 135 to 140 pounds (I very somewhere around there naturally). I don't really buy into the genetic disposition to infections thing as I don't really get sick very often.

Being thin for women is considered healthy and attractive. While being thin for men is not, so I think this is more of a gender role issue than a health one, honestly.

Anyway, my whole point in this thread is that I think it is wrong to treat others less because you think they are ugly. As I don't think you can judge someone's worth from their appearance.

Even if you can see weakness through someone's appearance... What is wrong with weakness? Why treat people that aren't as strong less?

Myself, I do not get very much sunlight because I am a shut in with agoraphobia. Why treat me differently because of this?

PS....

It really is strangely amusing how nearly every physical trait you look for that is unappealing, I have. :lol:

Maybe I should add a few more, just in case you decide to. Hmmm.. I have acne and stretch marks... More "signs of weakness" just for you.

[Sukuun]

Sukuun, I'm also six feet tall and around 135 to 140 pounds (I very somewhere around there naturally). I don't really buy into the genetic disposition to infections thing as I don't really get sick very often.

Great for you, be glad your weight doesn't affect you, but it does effect my brother and many others.

Being thin for women is considered healthy and attractive. While being thin for men is not, so I think this is more of a gender role issue than a health one, honestly.

For others maybe, for you maybe, but not to me. And there's more to health (and attractiveness) than just the body, there's the mind, heart and spirit, in my beliefs, and they overlap, and any unbalance in one part can manifest in other parts of our being.

Anyway, my whole point in this thread is that I think it is wrong to treat others less because you think they are ugly. As I don't think you can judge someone's worth from their appearance.

I don't treat people less, or think they are worth less because they aren't physically perfect according to the social norm. But it is wrong when/if people do that.

Even if you can see weakness through someone's appearance... What is wrong with weakness? Why treat people that aren't as strong less?

Not to get into word semantics again, but i never said this, and i certainly dont do this.

Myself, I do not get very much sunlight because I am a shut in with agoraphobia. Why treat me differently because of this?

Have i treated you differntly or less? NO. And before you even go there, no i wouldn't NOT date you because of these "weaknesses". In fact, there are quite a few "flaws", or unhealthy indications, that i do like, like scars, freckles, pot bellies, and well paleness i suppose, but only if the person is white, i dont like tans...

PS.... It really is strangely amusing how nearly every physical trait you look for that is unappealing, I have.

Somethings like black hair and green eyes is just cool looking to me, but have never known someone to have both, but blonde hair, red hair, brown hair, brown eyes, blue eyes, or hazel eyes in any combination are NOT unappealing. In fact my kids are the most beautiful things in the world and they both have blonde hair and brown eyes. (And now everyone that reads this post will know i have kids, something i had "preferred" to keep to myself unless neccessary, but if it serves a purpose then so be it). Somethings like being too skinny or pale were just random characteristics i happen to know could indicate something more serious, not a personal preference.

Maybe I should add a few more, just in case you decide to. Hmmm.. I have acne and stretch marks... More "signs of weakness" just for you.

So do i, but i dont think of them as weaknesses, my stretch marks are my battles scars, from pregnancy mostly, but pueberty too(now everyone who reads this will know i'm female, so much for annonimity :oops: , least no one knows my age ). And 99% of the people i massage have stretch marks and its in now way unusual, unhealthy, or unattractive to me. I also have some acne, i know mine is hormonal from pregnancy as well. Guess that makes everybody ugly and weak as everyone has one of the things already mentioned or some other flaw. Or maybe it just makes us special and unique and gives us the oppurtunity to find the special and unique someone else who has a special and unique prefernce and likes what we have to offer, so we can have special and unique relationships. Uniqueness is the spice of life.

[GetUnconscious]

Yeah, I understand this is not an anti-sexual site (I don't think those exist) and I'm not trying to force my views upon anyone else. Hopefully no one does the same to me.

But, yes, I think you got the gist of what I was saying about the very concept of "beauty" being evil to me. Robbing people of equality because you think they are ugly is just wrong in my mind. I don't see how people can justify it to themselves.

I believe physical beauty/ugliness should not exist, just as racism should not exist. Yet, as a 23 year old guy physical beauty seems 100% ingrained into my sexuality and I can't control who I find attractive and who I find unattractive.

As far as I see it all people of any appearance should be treated as equals.

I think about your example of a guy exploiting a woman for popularity, that is more of a strike against the person who made the choice to hurt another person than a fundamental evil within sexuality.

From my perspective, if I rationally look at my sexuality and how it functions... I see a great amount of moral problems that are consistently present and things that disgust me to the point of believing if this is how the rest of our species exists, I wouldn't mind if we just stopped reproducing and disappeared as a species.

Without judgement there would be no value or meaning to anything. Why is it wrong to judge something for its worth? You should embrace the feelings that you have and try to become a more beautiful person yourself. BEAUTY is not EVIL. One can only say that a persons misuse of their beauty or their intention are EVIL...not the beauty itself. Im a very sexual person, but way beyond that I am a devourer of beauty...I see beauty as a very holistic, soul enriching thing. Art is beauty. Life is beauty. If youre restricting beauty to that of the physical, maybe it is you who could do with advancing in your thoughts?

Look at it this way. You hire two chefs, they both make the same dish for you. One of the Chefs recipe turns out absolutely awful and the taste is disgusting. Would you smile and pretend that it tasted just as good or be honest? People do have different tastes and I think we should honour that and act upon it. Life is too short to live beyond honesty...

I agree that judgment is an important thing... That is why I used my own judgment to realize that my sexuality was not treating people fairly.

You say that judging something's worth is the only valuable thing about life, yet hating sexuality is very clearly judging sexuality's worth, so that view is counterproductive.

How do you determine "worth" from someone's appearance? Could you explain that?

In my eyes you can't and shouldn't do such a thing because it is shallow, inaccurate, and evil.

You seem to have a lot of self loathing. You deem your own sexuality as 'evil' whats with that? I love lots of people for the way they look, but that is something that remains completely independent to their personality, skill, art, humour etc etc. You sound like you cant detach the two. I was only talking about physical worth in this instance. Continuing with my chef anology; I would not taste a dish someone had made for me and compliment their work as an architect with my delight...You have obviously been hurt by peoples preferences of beauty...or maybe that your own preferences shock you... You need to get a grip on reality and start embracing your feelings. That is love. Not evil.

[M51]

Hey, Chaku, I think I understand what you are saying though I don't necessarily agree to the extent that you take it.

Really I don't think your opinion of any of this is inherently a problem. What worries me is that you are so unhappy. If your unhappiness is caused because you are a sexual person, I hope you can find a way to solve that. And the only way I can think of to solve it is to realize that it is not your fault that you are sexual. You are obviously a good person, and you want to be kind and fair. That is a huge thing, a wonderful thing that you have going for you. I know so many "healthy" people that have no interest in being kind or fair. If you ask me, they are the sick ones.

What exactly are you afraid of? Why are you afraid to have a job? How does your fear relate to your sexuality?

[chaku]

You seem to have a lot of self loathing. You deem your own sexuality as 'evil' whats with that? I love lots of people for the way they look, but that is something that remains completely independent to their personality, skill, art, humour etc etc. You sound like you cant detach the two. I was only talking about physical worth in this instance. Continuing with my chef anology; I would not taste a dish someone had made for me and compliment their work as an architect with my delight...You have obviously been hurt by peoples preferences of beauty...or maybe that your own preferences shock you... You need to get a grip on reality and start embracing your feelings. That is love. Not evil.

I see it evil because it is judging another person's worth from their appearance (just like racism).

About love, my mother "loved" my father, but he beat her and abused her in just about every way you can imagine.

Love, like beauty is just an emotion that can be wrong, inaccurate, and worthless.

If you are treating people differently because of the way that they look, then you are not detaching appearances from personality, as it is influencing their worth.

How do you define "physical worth?" How is this different from racism?

[chaku]

Hey, Chaku, I think I understand what you are saying though I don't necessarily agree to the extent that you take it.

Really I don't think your opinion of any of this is inherently a problem. What worries me is that you are so unhappy. If your unhappiness is caused because you are a sexual person, I hope you can find a way to solve that. And the only way I can think of to solve it is to realize that it is not your fault that you are sexual. You are obviously a good person, and you want to be kind and fair. That is a huge thing, a wonderful thing that you have going for you. I know so many "healthy" people that have no interest in being kind or fair. If you ask me, they are the sick ones.

What exactly are you afraid of? Why are you afraid to have a job? How does your fear relate to your sexuality?

I don't want to get a job for a lot of reasons. A huge one being fear, depression, and wanting to die instead.

The most rational reason I have for not wanting to get a job is because people will treat me differently. All of the people that treat me as less of a person now, will suddenly change their tune as soon as I have "a financial value" as a person.

I've been in my position long enough to know that most people in the real world do treat me less. Most women aren't attracted to me because I am too weak, a lot of men talk down to me or simply hate me because I'm not contributing money, and other people either look at me with pity or like I should just die because I'm not normal like everyone else.

Weakness is really the ultimate crime amongst humanity. Very few people believe that prisoners should not be fed and housed for their crimes, but there are a huge number of people who think those who are disabled are lazy, worthless, pieces of garbage and should die on the streets so they can have more money for themselves.

I don't even want to get better to please all of these people. :( I want to die and leave this world and leave every one of them behind.

[chaku]

To further explain what I am saying about hating weakness.... Take a look at the difference between the way humanity reacts to two different people. Hitler and your average homeless/unemployed man:

Hitler's support system...

A loving wife

An entire army willing to die for him and fight for his beliefs

An allied country (Japan) willing to join him on his conquests

Praise, respect, and love by his people

The average unemployed and homeless person's support system...

No wife because they don't have the resources to compete

No army, actually most people turn their heads upon seeing them

Pity, hatred, and dissapointment from their fellow man

[M51]

I don't think you should get better to please others. I think you should get better so you can be happier, not depressed, not suicidal.

It seems like you are caught in a cycle where you are depressed and unhappy, and people treat you badly because you are different (which is crap, every human being is entitled to a fundamental level of respect), and because they treat you badly you are more unhappy, and don't want to get better to please them, so you just get worse...

Well, I don't know you but I think you could probably be happy and contribute something to the world, so if you died that to me would be a tragedy of lost potential. And just so you know I believe that just being a happy, kind, fair person is contributing to the world, so I am not expecting a Nobel Prize or anything.

I also think that arguing with you feelings here will probably do no good because from what I understand feelings like yours are very deeply ingrained and will not respond to argument/logic. So I guess all I can say is you should know there is at least one person in this world who truly hopes you will get better and find a little happiness (me). Good luck. If you ever want to chat or something pm me.

[GetUnconscious]

You seem to have a lot of self loathing. You deem your own sexuality as 'evil' whats with that? I love lots of people for the way they look, but that is something that remains completely independent to their personality, skill, art, humour etc etc. You sound like you cant detach the two. I was only talking about physical worth in this instance. Continuing with my chef anology; I would not taste a dish someone had made for me and compliment their work as an architect with my delight...You have obviously been hurt by peoples preferences of beauty...or maybe that your own preferences shock you... You need to get a grip on reality and start embracing your feelings. That is love. Not evil.

I see it evil because it is judging another person's worth from their appearance (just like racism).

About love, my mother "loved" my father, but he beat her and abused her in just about every way you can imagine.

Love, like beauty is just an emotion that can be wrong, inaccurate, and worthless.

If you are treating people differently because of the way that they look, then you are not detaching appearances from personality, as it is influencing their worth.

How do you define "physical worth?" How is this different from racism?

You seriously need to look at yourself and then get a grip. Stop equating people with being racist when that is just silly bollocks really. Maybe you are worth less to some people than other people are...so what!? Thats just life. What really matters is your self worth...and that is evident because you are wallowing in such self pity. Stop considering what other people feel as the most important thing, start moving forward and pleasing yourself.

[chaku]

You seem to have a lot of self loathing. You deem your own sexuality as 'evil' whats with that? I love lots of people for the way they look, but that is something that remains completely independent to their personality, skill, art, humour etc etc. You sound like you cant detach the two. I was only talking about physical worth in this instance. Continuing with my chef anology; I would not taste a dish someone had made for me and compliment their work as an architect with my delight...You have obviously been hurt by peoples preferences of beauty...or maybe that your own preferences shock you... You need to get a grip on reality and start embracing your feelings. That is love. Not evil.

I see it evil because it is judging another person's worth from their appearance (just like racism).

About love, my mother "loved" my father, but he beat her and abused her in just about every way you can imagine.

Love, like beauty is just an emotion that can be wrong, inaccurate, and worthless.

If you are treating people differently because of the way that they look, then you are not detaching appearances from personality, as it is influencing their worth.

How do you define "physical worth?" How is this different from racism?

You seriously need to look at yourself and then get a grip. Stop equating people with being racist when that is just silly bollocks really. Maybe you are worth less to some people than other people are...so what!? Thats just life. What really matters is your self worth...and that is evident because you are wallowing in such self pity. Stop considering what other people feel as the most important thing, start moving forward and pleasing yourself.

I'm afraid the words "silly and bullox" don't really form a good rational argument.

I'm also not one to believe "that's just life" is a valid response to an injustice.

If by pleasing oneself my actions will be evil, I won't act upon them. There is nothing silly about that.

Maybe one day you will get into a disfiguring car accident and finally feel what it is like when someone judges your "worth" from your appearance?

I suppose to you now, "that's just life," but you would be singing a different tune, believe me.

[chaku]

I don't think you should get better to please others. I think you should get better so you can be happier, not depressed, not suicidal.

It seems like you are caught in a cycle where you are depressed and unhappy, and people treat you badly because you are different (which is crap, every human being is entitled to a fundamental level of respect), and because they treat you badly you are more unhappy, and don't want to get better to please them, so you just get worse...

Well, I don't know you but I think you could probably be happy and contribute something to the world, so if you died that to me would be a tragedy of lost potential. And just so you know I believe that just being a happy, kind, fair person is contributing to the world, so I am not expecting a Nobel Prize or anything.

I also think that arguing with you feelings here will probably do no good because from what I understand feelings like yours are very deeply ingrained and will not respond to argument/logic. So I guess all I can say is you should know there is at least one person in this world who truly hopes you will get better and find a little happiness (me). Good luck. If you ever want to chat or something pm me.

Thanks M51, I'm not really expecting someone to change my opinion on these things. I do appreciate your concern.

I started this thread because I've never met anyone that shared my opinon and was wondering whether a-sexuals had a different view on judging one anotther by their appearances, but don't expect someone to be able to convince me to judge others by their appearances.

[Mark from the OCD board]

I don't want to get a job for a lot of reasons. A huge one being fear, depression, and wanting to die instead.

The most rational reason I have for not wanting to get a job is because people will treat me differently. All of the people that treat me as less of a person now, will suddenly change their tune as soon as I have "a financial value" as a person.

I've been in my position long enough to know that most people in the real world do treat me less. Most women aren't attracted to me because I am too weak, a lot of men talk down to me or simply hate me because I'm not contributing money, and other people either look at me with pity or like I should just die because I'm not normal like everyone else.

Weakness is really the ultimate crime amongst humanity. Very few people believe that prisoners should not be fed and housed for their crimes, but there are a huge number of people who think those who are disabled are lazy, worthless, pieces of garbage and should die on the streets so they can have more money for themselves.

I don't even want to get better to please all of these people. :( I want to die and leave this world and leave every one of them behind.

Hey there, chaku!

As I mentioned before, I don't want to participate in the argument on beauty and evil any further, as I don't have a problem with your beliefs. (I'm not sure if you saw my last post to you--#6 on page 2--as you did not respond to it. I explained my rationale there.) Instead, I would like to comment on a few things in the post I have cited.

Comment means just that--not criticize, not fight, not say you are wrong, and not attack. It's all good. :)

I agree that if you are working on dealing with such strong negative feelings at the moment, a regular job might not be the best thing for you. What I think would help a lot, though, is something you believe in to occupy your time. Volunteer work, where there is no money involved and where you live up to your ideals, might be a good idea. A club or group activity might also be fun.

I have always palled around with a science fiction/comic book crowd, and I can assure you that your physical appearance would not be frowned on there. Quite honestly, a lot of the friends I have made in such circles do not measure up to society's defintion of gorgeous. A number of my fellow outcasts in science fiction have even found mates through science fiction. (For example, one of my favorite sci fi authors, Peter David, would hardly be described as beautiful; he met his wife at a Star Trek convention before he was famous.) Sure, cruel people talk about "two dogs meeting," but what does that matter? When you find friends or lovers who have been through what you have, they treat you with the respect and appreciation you need.

Are you into computers? Gaming? Philosophy? Chess? Debate (yes, I think!) Find something that suits you. Start small, just looking for friends. Build up later.

Staying at home night and day, with nothing to look forward to, will only magnify your negative thoughts and fears since you will be dwelling on them. Take it from someone who has lived it. Do yourself a favor and find a reason to start getting out, even if, at first, only to take a long walk while listening to a walkman, discman, or MP3 player.

As for physical appearance... Let me be perfectly honest. In September I became a mentor for a new professor, a guy in his late twenties, in my department. This guy is abnormally thin and has an odd appearance, and I admit that, imperfect human being that I am, my first thought was something I am ashamed of: 'Has he ever heard of gyms and plastic surgery?' In other words, I judged him based on his appearance. I quickly re-evaluated my silly judgment as I got to know him and appreciate his kindness and humor--and, most especially, his gift for being an excellent professor the students loved. At the end of the semester he married his long-term fiance, and at that point I could fully see why she married him. Heck, if he were gay and single, I would marry him!

In addition, I had started looking beyond the initial physical impression and saw things in his looks (his emotional eyes, his hair, his goofy grin when he was being sarcastic) that were endearing. How stupid of me to judge him so at the beginning--but, again, I am human. And, like many others, I moved beyond my faulty programming. Some people will give you a chance and get to know you and others won't. Ignore the latter and embrace the former. We all make value judgments at first, but that does not mean we stick to them. In addition, when surrounded by people who share your interests, you may well make an excellent first impression.

Most people in the real world treat me as less also. According to The New York Times, the four most hated groups in the U.S. are Arabs, Muslims, gays, and atheists. I am a gay Arab-American atheist--and I have OCD to boot. Don't even get me started on how people with OCD are viewed... Yet, I am open about all of it and I hold my head up high. If people want to treat me as less, fuck them! It's as simple as that. Even if most people treat me as less, there are others who do not. Seek out others who have been treated as less; they will love you all the more for your kindness. "Give a little love and it all comes back to you."

Not everyone thinks the disabled are what you say they do. Technically, because of my OCD, I am disabled, too. I have my limitations and I acknowledge them. I teach because I am good at it and because it is healthy for me to have a passion. I am sure that, as you work on getting better, you will find what gives you meaning, too. The politically correct word for "disabled" is "differently abled," and I think it is more accurate. There are so many people with a host of disabilities who are really good at what they do. That does not mean any of us got there overnight. We had to work at it--and, in terms of recovery, we had to take it slow.

Suicide means letting the assholes have their victory. They got to you so much that you just went away. Why give them that? They will never care about people like you and me, and it does not matter in the end. Their worlds are so hollow and based on such thin foundations that when they crash, they will be truly alone. You, on the other hand, have heart and spunk. Because you have known suffering, you can empathize and care about others. You are, quite frankly, a better person, not less of a person. How can those tormentors, the people who really are less, recognize what they really are? Pay them no mind.

[chaku]

I did read your post Mark and I do really appreciate it. For now I think I'm going to take a break from my thread here though because I've been feeling very suicidal and hopeless. I think you've been very positive to me but when I'm really down and feel like I have no choice but death it can be hard to respond to those that want to help me.

Someone told me today that "my beliefs are impossible" and the only way to deal with things is to cope with them. Well, maybe my beliefs are impossible but they are all I have and I do believe in them.

I don't really see suicide as letting the assholes win, it is just a way for me to be able to stop all of the pain and act accourding to my beliefs too. I really want to die so bad.

There is no meaning to human life. I don't want to be here anymore.

[chaku]

Edit:

I talked to my mother. I'm staying for now because I don't hurt want to hurt her.

Still, for myself, I really, really want to die.

[Mark from the OCD board]

I can respect that, chaku. Take as long as you need.

You don't always have to respond to people. You can just say, "Thank you. Right now I don't feel much like posting."

Someone told me today that "my beliefs are impossible"

You have the right to be accepted for who you are with the beliefs you have, and no one has the right to minimize your pain or the specifics of your situation. It's not right for someone to say that your beliefs are impossible, and maybe you feel like people here are arguing with you too much as well.

Sometimes, since I am a typical male, I try too hard to be a problem solver instead of a person who listens with empathy. If you want me or others to simply listen and empathize, just say so. It's your right, bro, and people here will listen.

[M51]

Hey, Chaku, if you just want to express yourself and do not want to have to respond, you could possibly ask a mod here to lock your thread after you post your thoughts and feelings. That way you can rest assured that people are listening (you can see how many views your post got), but you don't have to worry about arguments or debate.

Especially if people's replies are making you feel worse, or more suicidal.

I dunno though. Would a mod do this? Mods? Is that kind of request okay/allowed?

[BunnyK.]

Another thing, I am on disability. I AM disabled. So, if you are talking about sickness and weakness as something to avoid then you are talking about me.

And at the same time, if you are talking about sexuality and finding people attractive to be evil, then you are calling ME evil. Also the great majority of my friends and relatives.

The thing is, I know I'm not evil. I have my flaws - even people on AVEN, who don't know me outside of my posts here, will know some of them - but I try hard to be kind, to be helpful, to spread happiness and comfort instead of negativity. I have a slightly combative personality, but I work hard to not allow it to get the best of me and say things that are hurtful. I try to treat everyone as equal, no matter what they look like or what they do.

However, what you're saying is that even though I do all that, the fact that I have preferences about what I find attractive or not is evil. Wow.

Now, just not being attracted to someone isn't the same as "hating" them. I don't really hate anyone, except this one guy from high school that said I had more facial hair than he did :roll: ...I don't believe anyone is less because they aren't as attractive. Having been overweight, shy, socially awkward, unkempt, unemployed, etc - I know all about being judged as less. I don't like it any more than anyone else, and I try not do it. But I don't want to be given an opportunity at a relationship out of some sense of moral rectitude. I don't want someone to look at me and think "Well, she's kind of a cow, but she's a nice person so I guess I'll date her because it's wrong to discriminate on looks." I want someone to date me because I am awesome in every way to them, and I really believe that most people eventually find someone who sees only the best in them, and is really attracted to them as a *whole* person, body included.

On another note, I really think maybe you should consider seeing a doctor - I haven't been in the mental place that you are, but I've been close enough that trying to empathize gives me the crawling heebie-jeebies. It can be hard to see when you're in the fog of depression and self-hatred, but the world doesn't have to be a cold and unwelcoming place, people don't have to seem like a pack of wolves waiting to descend on you and rip you to shreds, and life really can have meaning besides isolation and loneliness. I know it can seem overwhelming, but it's entirely worth it to try to work toward contentment.

[ee]

...Sexuality, I believe, exacerbates cruelty...

absolutely. my ex demanded i be slim & athletic. i have been much happier since i left him, even though i have a few curves now.

sexual competition can really destroy self-esteem & warp values.

go well.

[anticulus]

Hey, Chaku, if you just want to express yourself and do not want to have to respond, you could possibly ask a mod here to lock your thread after you post your thoughts and feelings. That way you can rest assured that people are listening (you can see how many views your post got), but you don't have to worry about arguments or debate.

Especially if people's replies are making you feel worse, or more suicidal.

I dunno though. Would a mod do this? Mods? Is that kind of request okay/allowed?

If the person who starts a Welcome thread wants it locked, they can PM me and I'll be happy to do so.

[thylacine]

Hey, Chaku... listen, I gotta agree with Bunny here, okay... Now, normally I think psychiatrists have an irrational habit of medicalizing every day life... like yah know, you got PMS they give yah Prozac for pete's sakes when that just part of being a normal woman & all that... but in this case, man, if you are suicidal... maybe you ought to ask around for a doctor who's a real professional, or maybe talk to a clergy person? Don't be suicidal, dude. There is no way back if you go through with it.

[chaku]

Another thing, I am on disability. I AM disabled. So, if you are talking about sickness and weakness as something to avoid then you are talking about me.

And at the same time, if you are talking about sexuality and finding people attractive to be evil, then you are calling ME evil. Also the great majority of my friends and relatives.

The thing is, I know I'm not evil. I have my flaws - even people on AVEN, who don't know me outside of my posts here, will know some of them - but I try hard to be kind, to be helpful, to spread happiness and comfort instead of negativity. I have a slightly combative personality, but I work hard to not allow it to get the best of me and say things that are hurtful. I try to treat everyone as equal, no matter what they look like or what they do.

However, what you're saying is that even though I do all that, the fact that I have preferences about what I find attractive or not is evil. Wow.

Now, just not being attracted to someone isn't the same as "hating" them. I don't really hate anyone, except this one guy from high school that said I had more facial hair than he did :roll: ...I don't believe anyone is less because they aren't as attractive. Having been overweight, shy, socially awkward, unkempt, unemployed, etc - I know all about being judged as less. I don't like it any more than anyone else, and I try not do it. But I don't want to be given an opportunity at a relationship out of some sense of moral rectitude. I don't want someone to look at me and think "Well, she's kind of a cow, but she's a nice person so I guess I'll date her because it's wrong to discriminate on looks." I want someone to date me because I am awesome in every way to them, and I really believe that most people eventually find someone who sees only the best in them, and is really attracted to them as a *whole* person, body included.

On another note, I really think maybe you should consider seeing a doctor - I haven't been in the mental place that you are, but I've been close enough that trying to empathize gives me the crawling heebie-jeebies. It can be hard to see when you're in the fog of depression and self-hatred, but the world doesn't have to be a cold and unwelcoming place, people don't have to seem like a pack of wolves waiting to descend on you and rip you to shreds, and life really can have meaning besides isolation and loneliness. I know it can seem overwhelming, but it's entirely worth it to try to work toward contentment.

Contentment is for those that have goals. My goal is to die as soon as possible while hurting others the least amount possible. So, contentment for me is death.

I'm sorry if you feel attacked by my beliefs as they are my simply my beliefs. I believe that treating someone differently based on their appearance is wrong... And that "sexuality" doesn't change this. I see treating other people differently because of race as wrong on the same level and I'm sure if I were to go to a white supremacist forum there would be an equal amount of people getting upset by my beliefs.

I haven't asked a single person to change. I have stated my beliefs about how I percieve reality.

If you believe that treating people less because you think they are ugly is right... Fine. But, if not, why not have some sympathy for those that have been mistreated instead of being offended that you may be doing something wrong?

Even if you don't change your actions, is it that hard to have some sympathy for those that have been hurt?