A sexual person hating sexuality?

[chaku]

Hi, I'm a guy in kind of a strange situation because I've never found anyone that shares it so I thought I'd try asking if there is anyone here who comes from the same perspective.

Is there anyone here who is a sexual person, but hates sexuality?

For me, I find sexuality to be very evil. As I see it, the concept of judging the way another person should be treated based off their appearance is much the same thing as racism. Whether it involves refusing to give someone an equal opportunity towards having all kinds of relationships because of the way they look or refusing someone the equal right to drink out of a drinking fountain for that reason, I believe both are very wrong.

My sexuality, at least is shallow. I believe it is shallow because of evolutionary reasons (a desire to create a superior species, much like Hitler had) that I disagree with.

What about you all? Is there anyone that shares my opinion that treating people differently and refusing them the opportunity to have a relationship along with equal right to pass on their genetics is wrong just because you think they are ugly?

What is the difference between treating people of a certain color less and treating someone less because of their shape, color, size, and overall appearance?

[M51]

Well, this is not a anti-sexual site. AVEN is not against sex or sexuality. We just ask that our unique lack of sexuality be respected. We have a number of highly values sexual members at AVEN. I myself am not anti-sexual (although my recent experience has made me come close). But here are some thoughts about what you said:

I am not sure I agree completely but I have seen total idiots get whatever they want or get promoted/preferential treatment because they are good looking while the hard working, honest, diligent ugly person gets nothing. That is total crap.

I have seen fat/ugly girls in deep depression because nobody is interested in a relationship with them. And that is tragic. I mean, I am not going to date some idiot just to give him equal opportunity. But how does being ugly or fat affect the quality of a relationship? These ugly/fat people could be the most loyal, dependable, loving partners ever, and they never get a chance to express that.

I am very bitter from a recent experience in which a male horribly exploited a female sexually just to earn praise from his peers. That is the kind of thing that makes me think we would be better off without sexuality. I know sex is great and joyful and fulfilling to a lot of people. But too often - maybe even more often - it is destructive, humiliating, exploitative....

Any of that make sense?

[chaku]

Yeah, I understand this is not an anti-sexual site (I don't think those exist) and I'm not trying to force my views upon anyone else. Hopefully no one does the same to me.

But, yes, I think you got the gist of what I was saying about the very concept of "beauty" being evil to me. Robbing people of equality because you think they are ugly is just wrong in my mind. I don't see how people can justify it to themselves.

I believe physical beauty/ugliness should not exist, just as racism should not exist. Yet, as a 23 year old guy physical beauty seems 100% ingrained into my sexuality and I can't control who I find attractive and who I find unattractive.

As far as I see it all people of any appearance should be treated as equals.

I think about your example of a guy exploiting a woman for popularity, that is more of a strike against the person who made the choice to hurt another person than a fundamental evil within sexuality.

From my perspective, if I rationally look at my sexuality and how it functions... I see a great amount of moral problems that are consistently present and things that disgust me to the point of believing if this is how the rest of our species exists, I wouldn't mind if we just stopped reproducing and disappeared as a species.

[Aventually]

How about the creeps who demand their partner be drop-dead gorgeous, yet they are far from it?

I always said a lot of people should be spayed and neutered--the ones who are ugly on the INSIDE, that is! Yep, there are some very degrading examples of our species in this screwy world.

[Mark from the OCD board]

How about the creeps who demand their partner be drop-dead gorgeous, yet they are far from it?

We agree on that Aventually. :)

Chaku:

You have the right to feel angry if people or events have hurt you.

I'm a gay sexual, and I understand a lot of the sentiment expressed in this thread. Because my sexuality is not the same as most folks', I have been the victim of prejudice and discrimination. My civil rights are denied here in America, and I could conceivably be killed by gay bashers. The religious right blames gays for everything from the war in Iraq to Hurricane Katrina to an earthquake in Lisbon that occurred during the Renaissance...

So, yes, I too am full of anger. I also despise what Hitler and his Aryans did to Jews, gypsies, gays, people of color, Catholics, Slavs, trade unionists, political leftists, religious leaders who refused to preach Naziism, and so on. But... Would an asexual Hitler have been a Mother Teresa? That implies that asexuals lack human vices. Some might argue that without testosterone, which is what makes many men aggressive, Hitler would not have been the cruel dictator he was. But haven't female dictators been just as ruthless?

There is so much evil in sexuality, it is true, but also so much in sexuality that I cherish. As a sexual and a homosexual, I have known the bliss of being in a man's arms, and I have expressed a part of me that is primeval and immediate. It is a part of me I fought to have, one for which I have been shunned--and a part of me that is as important as the air I breathe.

Sexuality, I believe, exacerbates cruelty. Nevertheless, I don't believe it is the root of all cruelty. (I am an atheist, but I know that the Bible says money is the root of all evil. It's an interesting thought and certainly worth exploring.)

Even in the gay community, the cult of youth is in full force, and now that I am 41 and no longer a cherubic young man, I know that I have lesser value. Is it fair? No. Is it reality? Yes.

Does that mean I can no longer have good non-sexual friends of all sexes and sexual orientations? Does that mean I have to be celibate? Hell, no, Miss Thing! --SNAP--

Neither do those overweight women you mention (unless they are asexual or choose celibacy). Actually, one of my best friends is a severely overweight woman, and I know how much angst our judgmental society puts her through and how many times she has cried. She is also one of the smartest people I know, ten times smarter than me--and I teach in a university. So, a fat, smart woman with thick glasses... Sadly, you know what most people think. But is she celibate? No way. She goes for fellow chunky individuals--smart ones with glasses.

She still fantasizes about physical beauty while masturbating, but she also knows that what she's got--inner beauty, her own and her partner's--is far more important.

I may think about Brad Pitt, but I don't expect a real lover to look like him. Fantasies are very healthy--but only if they do not interfere with reality.

Back to my friend and heavy people... Clearly, it is possible for a heavy person and a non-heavy person to be an item, although it is not common. Still, I have seen a number of such couples in my life. In addition, some sexuals are "chubby chasers," which, I suppose, is a reverse stereotype.

Back to me... When I was a Fundamentalist, still in the closet, and suffering from untreated OCD, I, too, was obese since food was my way of dealing with life. I know how much it hurts to be rejected for any reason, and I know what an effort it is--like Monica on Friends--to keep weight off and not feed the fat person still lurking in a thinner shell.

It is hard to overwrite our programming. Beautifully-colored birds attact the most mates. Male lions bully other males into submission so they can have the best females. It is not politically correct, but it is who we are.

Life is full of beauty and ugliness, pain and pleasure, justice and injustice. We have to accept it as it is, and then find ways to work around it to create our own happiness and reach out to others.

[M51]

Sexuality, I believe, exacerbates cruelty.

Yes, I think that is the truth of it. I don't really understand how. I want to say it is because it drives people to judge others on superficial qualities that lead to sexual attraction and desire, which decreases opportunities for empathy. Or perhaps it drives (some) people in such a way that they take something by force if they can't get it by charm, and that this urge to take by force then seeps into other areas?

But I don't know. I wish everybody could just be decent to and respectful of each other. Sexually and otherwise. I don't have to like everybody. But I don't have to be mean, cruel, abusive, or exploitative of those I don't like, either.

[Sukuun]

Ok, i didnt read everyone's responses as i have a headache moving towards migraine, so i apologized if i am repeating or incoherant here. I'll try to be understood.

While i think that having a socially and media driven concept of beauty is disgusting, i do believe each individual developes a sense of beauty for many reason and on a wide spectrum. And just as there is a "normal", "traditional", "average" level of sexuality, there too seems to be a traditional sense of beauty. The problem falls not on our ability to perceive beauty, but what we do with it. Just as it is wrong to exploit or take advantage os someone's sexuality, it's wrong to exploit someone's physical appearance. And the outcome is usually negative on many fronts. Like the example, a person getting a job or promotion based on their "beauty" will damage the self-worth of the individual who's not seen for their hard-work or intelligence, even if the one getting the promotion is also hard-working and smart, he/she too suffers in the same way. Not to mention it compromises the integrity of the individual who did the hiring.

On the other hand, appreciating one for their "beauty" is or can be another means to solidify a relationship. To see one's partner a beautiful being does warm the heart and soul, strengthening their bond. The key is to develope a moral sense of beauty in addition to your "carnal" sense of beauty. You don't have to think everyone is sexually attractive, but do see everyone for their real beauty, and that in my opinion is perceived by the spirit and not the eyes.

[chaku]

I believe whether the concept of beauty is driven by the media or by evolution it is evil either way.

I don't think I will ever understand the value of believing another person to be worth less because of their appearance. Certainly, the KKK believed that, but so does anyone who believes ugly people don't deserve an equal opportunity to all relationships. Why would looking a certain way ever change what someone deserves as a person?

As for me, I've never been in a sexual relationship (I've had mental health problems that would have made it very un-likely someone would accept me in one even before I even formed my beliefs). I'm in a position because I have no money, no job, and am not very physically attractive that people simply do view me as less most of the time.

I'm tired of fighting my sexuality and disagreeing with it. I've been suicidal for many years now. I hate existing as an animal without morality. I would prefer if I could die at this point as it is not really worth it to continue living in this world, but I'd feel guilty about hurting my family so I'm stuck here.

[thylacine]

Sheesh, dude, don't be suicidal, okay? You're not an animal without morality, because obviously you have a sense of right & wrong... so if you have ideas about right & wrong, then how come you feel you have no morality? Only a moral person can have a concept of right & wrong... so you must be a moral person, right? Your family & people who care about you would feel bad if you died, so don't be suicidal, okay?

[Mark from the OCD board]

Hey there, chaku.

I think it is very healthy that you have come here to talk, and I admire you for not wanting to hurt your family.

Having mental health problems does not make you less of a person. It is not something you chose, but it is not some form of punishment either. It just is. Being different is good, especially when you look at how shallow the mainstream is.

As you can see from my screen name, I do most of my posting on an OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder) board, and I have OCD myself. OCD is a mental illness, so anything you say about being mentally ill you also say about me. Before I was treated, my life was a real mess, and I used to think about suicide. Now I help others with OCD. Maybe you can set a goal for yourself: Keep getting better so that eventually you can reach out to people who need you.

There are people who will not judge you, and there are in fact people without mental issues who are married to people with mental issues. A number of people on my OCD board have spouses with no OCD. Finding such a person may actually be one of the few advantages to having an illness. You know from the start that the person wants you as you are and is not going to bolt because you are different.

I don't know what your issues are, and you certainly don't have to reveal anything you are not comfortable with. I do know that there are many successful, famous people with OCD like David Beckham and Billy Bob Thornton. There are also successful, famous people with bipolar disorder, ADD, and a host of other issues.

When people view you as less of a person, it is because THEY have a problem, not you. This is exactly what I tell my students, all of whom speak English as a second or third language. When a person looks down on immigrants or thinks an accent means stupidity, it is that person who has the problem, not the person he or she is putting down.

I know how easy it is to internalize the cruelty of others, as that is something I still struggle with. I often make the mistake of taking my feelings of worth from others regardless of whether their assessment of me is positive or negative. Instead, I should be taking feelings of worth from within.

Please don't be so hard on yourself. As human beings, we are all a mix of things we are proud of and things we are ashamed of. For all the good I have done in helping people, I also know that I have hurt people. It's part of being human. No one expects you to be perfect, and if you do judge someone based on appearance, that's all right. You do your best to do what you feel is right, but as a fallible human being you will not always be perfect. Forgive yourself for coming up short, for it is what all human beings do.

[hezman_biggest]

i don't like sexuality too

i very very hate straight boy

im a bi-asexual man but i am not anti-sexual man

[chaku]

Hmmm... Well, my mental illness is mostly depression along with pretty severe social phobias and isolation problems. I dropped out of school when I was 15 and cut myself off from everyone with the intent to kill myself when I turned 18, but it never seemed to happen. So, now I hide in my home on disability and just want my life to be over.

It really doesn't seem like this is the world for me. I don't like it at all and I can't stand how disgusting I and pretty much everyone else around me seems to be with hating people unjustly and treating them less for bad reasons.

As far as me being an animal without morality, I consider myself one because my sexuality is evil and compells me towards evil things. I honestly think I wouldn't have the control over it that I do now if it were not for the extreme isolation I live in. I find attractive women very attractive and unattractive women very unnattractive, unfortunately.

It seems to me like my sexuality is completely evil. Another thing that horrifies me is it seems I'm not attracted to "who someone is as a person" and instead am attracted towards someone because they are an attractive woman than having anything to do with them as a person.

The best example would be pornography to describe the evil. Pornography (most of which is prostitution) is against my beliefs so I try very hard to keep it out of my life yet I have seen it before and have found women attractive in it.

So, why would I find someone that is being paid to have sex attractive if I'm not evil?

[Mark from the OCD board]

I hear you, chaku. Social phobias are in the same family as OCD, and I can relate to what you are saying. When you talk about isolation problems, you may or may not be referring to agoraphobia, which is also in the same family.

As an OCD person, it is my natural instinct to view the world in terms of good and evil, right and wrong, us and them, my way and the wrong way, black and white... I have learned, though, that these extremes are in my mind, and they don't represent the world as it is. Most things fall somewhere in the middle of the two extremes, in what is called the gray area.

Instead of viewing things as "good" and "evil," why not view them in the absence of such grandiose terms? Things just are. Actions are taken for a variety of reasons, many of which we do not know. They are not "good" or "evil" of themselves. We merely give them such labels. For example, European settlers originally viewed certain East Coast Native American cultures as sadistic, citing how they took pleasure in forcing crying children to eat foul tasting roots when quality food was plentiful. This was seen as evil. However, the reason these parents did this was because in times of famine these roots might be the only food available, and they wanted their children to get used to them.

In addition, if you do believe in "good" and "evil," then it is important to understand that one cannot exist without the other. In the short story classic "Those Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula LeGuin, the citizens of Omelas have a perfect life: They love deeply and purely, have deep friendships like no others anywhere else, share all their possessions and resources freely, live plentiful lives, and are quite happy. All except one. In a dark room locked away from the glory of Omelas, an abandoned little boy wallows in his own excrement. He has never known human contact or love, and he cries all day, wondering why he is treated this way. It is the knowledge of this boy's suffering that makes the citizens of Omelas treat each other the way they do. Without that little boy, without the cruelty that is basic to our nature, love and noble aspirations cannot exist. Even Captain Kirk had to rejoin his evil twin when the two were separated, as Yin cannot exist without Yang.

You cannot be a perfect person, bro, and you cannot be "good" unless you also experience "evil." Especially at 23, your sexuality will indeed focus on some things you are not proud of. There is a big difference between a thought and acting on it, though. As an OCD person hounded by unwanted, intrusive thoughts, I know this only too well. Through practice and behavior therapy, people with OCD learn to simply ignore the thoughts, something we cannot just up and do on our own since they are accompanied by physiological reactions. We have the thoughts because we have OCD, and that is one of the symptoms. We don't have them because we are wicked or deserve them or are being punished by deites.

Similarly, you and I and all the rest of us have thoughts we find unpleasant or that go against our beliefs because we are human. You may love your mother very much, but when she gets on your nerves you may curse her in your mind. That is being human, not evil. If I see a hot guy walking near me, yes, I think about how I would like to push him down and have him right then and there regardless of how he feels about it. However, I also know that I would never do such a thing; I would never violently assualt someone for sex. Of that I am 100% certain. So I have the thought. So what? Since it is only a thought and not something I will act on, it is not evil; it just is.

As for physical attraction... Well of course you go for the most beautiful woman, and that is what you masturbate to as well. But, once again, that is just a thought. (And it is also harmless.) In terms of reality, you will go for someone who is compatible and kind but who may not measure up to Jessica Simpson's standards. Again, it is a matter of separating fantasy from reality. The lonely old men who embarrass themselves by chasing 20-year-olds have never realized the difference. There are many like that--but you need not be. You can and will separate fantasy from reality, and you will be very happy with a woman whose physical beauty is less than perfect (even as you continue to have fantasies about Jessica). Here's a tip: When you really love someone, the physical shell is not so important. Given a choice between that less-than-perfect person who loves you back and Jessica, you will indeed choose that less-than-perfect person.

And bro, you're 23 and in your sexual prime. If the wind blows, you feel like having sex. If someone paid for sex looks good, you're turned on. You're not evil. You're human.

As for depression...

Let's say someone who loves you and whom you love back treats you horribly one day because of some minor thing that you do. A person with OCD, social phobia and/or depression would internalize what that person did and assume unworthiness. If you love someone, you should never lose your temper with that person or treat that person badly, your head will say. (Again, that is not the way reality works. That is a perfect world in which everything is black and white.)

If someone who loves me treats me badly, your head goes on, then I deserve it because I am a terrible person. Also untrue. The person who treated you horribly that day and that day only has been treating you lovingly in the past and will continue to do so in the future; that day was a fluke. Perhaps he or she was in a bad mood and the minor thing you did was the last straw. Perhaps something is bothering the person and, because he or she is only human, it is all taken out on you. Perhaps the person did not realize how upsetting his or her actions were.

It is not black and white. In addition, when someone who dislikes you treats you badly, that is also not a validation of feelings of inferiority and worthlessness. Instead, all it says is that the other person has an opinion. That opinion is not fact.

The world, too, is not black and white. There is a lot I hate about it, but there is a lot that gives me pleasure. I have to go out and seek the good things; they don't just come to me.

Instead of speaking in extremes--"It really doesn't seem like this is the world for me"--why not say that there are certain things you do not like and others you do? Your depression may be making you go to extremes, seeing everything as negative and making you lose interest in the things that do give you pleasure. That is the way depression works, and it is not your fault either. Serious depression is physiological in nature, but it can be treated. Behavior therapy is highly effective. If needed, usually only temporarily, medication can really cut through the cloud and turn you back into you again. Medication is a physiological response to a physiological issue, not a cop-out or a crutch as some paint it.

This advice comes from the heart of someone who has been there, who has really suffered, and who once wanted to end it all. Take healing one step at a time and be patient with yourself.

[M51]

Chaku, you're not evil!!

The fact that you think about this and try to be better proves to me that you a better person than most. Most people just make excuses for themselves. You unfortunately take so much responsibility for yourself that it is making you feel bad.

I think it is good that you try to be moral. But in addition to realizing your shortcomings, you have to accept that you are who you are. There is nothing you can do to be less sexual, or you would have done it by now, right? So accept that you are sexual, realize that you may need to control it sometimes, and find other ways to feel good about yourself. You obviously have many good qualities. What are they? Don't worry about bragging, we are here for you. Brag away. Make yourself feel awesome.

If people bother you, maybe you could work with animals? Maybe you could work with people from a distance, like through the internet?

And Mark from the OCD board is da bomb when it comes to mental illness, depression, and being different. So listen to him. He rocks. He was dealt a rough hand in life and he has been able to overcome it and turned out to be an awesome person, too.

[chaku]

Hey everyone, I really do appreciate you all responding to my post even though I am not a-sexual.

My problem is, I just can't see things the way you do. As an example that Mark used: The idea of having a relationship with someone that is not attractive enough to the point of you masturbating to images of attractive people... That seems incredibly shallow and meaningless, not to mention disrespectful towards another human being.

Why would I have a relationship with someone if I find them so ugly that I feel I should be looking elsewhere because they are just too ugly? If someone told me they would have sex with me because I was the best they could do, but in order to be fully satisfied they wouldl need to masturbate to people that are "not in fact ugly"... I would be offended.

I simply believe sexuality is evil... To the point of never being redeemable in any way. Honestly, I find the idea that I have been attracted to prostitutes (pornography) disgusting enough alone to be able to rationalize my sexuality as evil.

But, the concept of treating someone differently because they are "ugly" is simply in-excusable to me. What seperates that from racism? Or any other form of unjust hatred?

[Busrider]

Hey everyone, I really do appreciate you all responding to my post even though I am not a-sexual.

My problem is, I just can't see things the way you do. As an example that Mark used: The idea of having a relationship with someone that is not attractive enough to the point of you masturbating to images of attractive people... That seems incredibly shallow and meaningless, not to mention disrespectful towards another human being.

Pardon me , maybe you didn't get Mark entirely right. (I place myself at the low end of mediocre attractivity, just for the record) What Mark might mean is: You are currently spoiled by the porn industry, Hollýwood and similar who's products might inspire masturbation and according to your own description you lost / avoided contact with the real world around you. That's tragic but not crucial.

I firmly believe in the benefits of love at 2nd view. When I first met the girl I love most, I thought she might be the greyest mouse in the universe. It took me a while to discover all the admireable stuff about her.

All my teenage affairs and so on worked on the principle that I didn't take them seriously enough in the beginning to cramp entirely, which I would still do, if faced with a reincarnated Rita Hayworth (sorry, I'm not up to date with celebrities) That's the way the "racist" aspect of sexuality & attraction works for me. I feel myself underdogish, and know that I won't get along with a meber of the superior leaque.

What does it matter what turned you on yesterday, if you happen to meet somebody you could fall in love with later?

The old proverb of love making people blind is true according to my experience.

Why would I have a relationship with someone if I find them so ugly that I feel I should be looking elsewhere because they are just too ugly? If someone told me they would have sex with me because I was the best they could do, but in order to be fully satisfied they wouldl need to masturbate to people that are "not in fact ugly"... I would be offended.

Pardon me again; You're thought policing at the green table! Please devide between shared love and single masturbation! - Facts: there(and especially here!) are women who don't gain satisfaction from intercourse. If they have intercourse with you, it shows they love you. If they use your bowling evening to masturbate over their old Shane McGowan posters, who cares? - That's the privacy even a relatinship should allow!

I simply believe sexuality is evil... To the point of never being redeemable in any way. Honestly, I find the idea that I have been attracted to prostitutes (pornography) disgusting enough alone to be able to rationalize my sexuality as evil.

You seem to be a extreme moralist. I fear that doesn't make your life easier. - Use your moral concerns to be aware of mistakes in the future and try to live.

But, the concept of treating someone differently because they are "ugly" is simply in-excusable to me. What seperates that from racism? Or any other form of unjust hatred?

I knew a stunning outbound telephonist who in fact was compareably ugly. OTOH I doubt that a super model might have ever developed that amount of talking skills. Can you imagine how the person I'd hire as a telephonist might look? What chance would a bunch of Hooters waitresses have to operate a car repairshop against male competition?

Also: What do you really mean by your racism yadayada? Should the government brainwash good looking girls to have sex with you? To bread a entirely mediocre race or what? / Or are you just whining about the thought crimes you committed although you never stepped out into life to compensate these?

Life and nature are cruel but successful. Some people are blessed with beauty. They can use it to compensate other shortcomings.

Others are challenged in some way and compensating for that gets them used to a amount of effort which makes them succeed in other fields.

A third group is cursed to be born as mediocre persons with a golden spoon in their mouth and fail extremely later in life.

You seem young enough to make something remarkable out of yourself.

[chaku]

For me, either looks affect the way another person is treated or they do not. It really is that simple. It doesn't matter how ugly someone has to be before you treat them less, as long as you are still treating people less for this reason. Just as it does not matter how black someone has to be before you start treating them less to be racist.

Either someone is judging people based on their appearances and treating them differently or they are not.

I believe that I do that and disagree with it. Obviously a moral person would be thought policing as that is what "morality is."

I don't see any value in living a life of sexuality. It is cruel, disgusting, and pathetic to my eyes.

Many things are "effective." If you look towards the history of our species it is believed that rape was the primary method of reproduction. But, we stopped doing that because it was wrong.

At this point in time refusing to treat people that you think are ugly as your equals is our primary method of sexuality. I'm saying I see this as wrong. People can call me an extremist, but that does not make my view less valid, as every positive change humanity has ever made was started as an extremist point of view.

Just because something "works," does NOT mean it is a moral thing. Certainly racism worked. We had slavery in my country for many years because we believed that treating other people differently because of the way they looked was a more effective way for our species to succeed.

I'm saying that I don't believe a species that reproduces through the basis of hating ugly people is worth anything. Why live a life full of contempt for people because they look different?

[chaku]

Also: What do you really mean by your racism yadayada? Should the government brainwash good looking girls to have sex with you? To bread a entirely mediocre race or what? / Or are you just whining about the thought crimes you committed although you never stepped out into life to compensate these?

I mean exactly what I said. That hating ugly people is wrong. Treating people differently because of their appearance is wrong, whether it be me doing this or anyone else doing it.

And as far as compensation... Of what do you speak? Perhaps you are someone that believes disabled people have no right to an opinion? Speak, I am listening.

[thylacine]

You are right that many people are shallow, and look down upon ugly people, especially in high school... but hopefully, at some point in time, most people grow up and see what is really inside of people and learn to like people for themselves...

Actually, I should add that my prob is that I'm pretty... and when a woman is pretty no one thinks of her as intelligent or creative or educated... I am sooooo sick of hearing, "What, you've been to college?"

Also, I like old cars and restored a nice old Buick... I am sick of hearing, "Your husband is nice to let you drive his classic car." I am single, I restored that car with my hard earned money, and got my own hands dirty... I tell them it's mine and "it's got a 350 with a 2 barrel carburetor and a limited slip differential," "Wow, how do you know all that stuff?" Cuz it's mine, duh! Sad that no one can see an attractive lady as being anything but a fluff-head. (Interesting fact, other people, mostly men but some women, who own classic cars, always seem to recognize right away this car is MINE, and treat me like a sister, the guys who drive Hyundais are the ones who treat me like crap! I don't know... old car people recognize their own! They are a unique tribe with its own language and customs... )

[Mark from the OCD board]

Hey, Chaku.

There is a difference between thinking someone is less than perfect in appearance (or outright ugly) and treating the person badly in real life. The former is a thought that everyone gets while the latter is a behavior choice.

It's the same with racism. If anyone claims that he or she has never had a racist thought, I will call that person a liar. Someone who is not racist is not someone who never has a racist thought, as that is not humanly possible; rather, he or she is someone who recognizes such thoughts for the silliness they are and never acts on them.

It is O.K. to be human, bro. It is O.K. to think divisive thoughts or to lust for (even jerk off to) whatever strikes your fancy. What you do in real life, how you treat real people, is what defines your humanity.

That's an important point.

Physical appearance is the first thing you see, granted, but that is not the only reason to be attracted to someone. I am average in appearance, neither beautiful nor ugly, and I know there are many men who are hotter than I. It's a fact of life. I have never been sexual with a man I would describe as centerfold perfect since I am realistic in what I can and cannot get. When I was younger, I thought Emilio Estevez the most beautiful man in the world, and I still feel a tingle more than twenty years later when someone mentions his name. That's a fantasy--and a delicious one. But... Mark don't get no Emilios!

So what? Even though a man's looks may not be perfect, there are individual phsyical qualities (the way his face lights up when he smiles, the emotions I read in his eyes, the sexiness of his masculine hands, the adorable blemish on his face, the color of his hair...) that attract me big time. (Heck, there's one guy whose EARS turn me on.) Add all that to a man's intelligence, empathy and whatever endearing personality quirks he has... And Mark is in heat.

It's no different for you with women. You will always think about hot babes and masturbate while thinking about them, but that does not mean you need love a woman you are seeing or married to any less. No matter how deeply you are in love with a girlfriend/spouse, if you are a sexual person, your head will still turn when centerfold-quality material passes. It's true that, in an ideal world, we would not be like that; however, we are not in an ideal world. A good policy to adopt: "Look but don't touch."

Another good policy: Don't discriminate against beautiful women, either. thylacine explains this well, and what she says is true. Physical beauty does not negate the truth of intelligence and training. (The same stereotype occurs in the gay community, where pretty boys are 'dumb blonds' or whatever. It is just as wrong and hurtful.)

Is it so wrong to enjoy physical beauty? I like looking at good-looking men just as you like looking at good-looking women. It gives me pleasure. I also like looking at sunsets, beautiful art, gracefully-crafted buildings, ancient ruins... They, too, give me pleasure.

Where's the problem if, with your conscious mind, you overrule discriminatory thoughts and treat all people as, well, people?

[Sukuun]

So, you think so and so woman is sexy, but not so and so man? Are being relationally prejudice of men? And if i prefer to date musicians or artist, does that mean i am relationally prejudice of accountants, astronauts, teachers, civil engineers, etc.?

Point, most people want to be involved with someone they can be compatible with, and that includes appearances. I know i wouldn't want to be intimately involved with someone who thought my eye color was disgusting, my hair is too wavey, I'm not tall enough, I have too many moles and freckles, my accent was irritating, and my career choice was unacceptable, or my family was psychotic. That said, no one is perfect, and there will be some characteristics/qualities of anyone i date, even the person i may one day fall in love with, that isn't the most desirable (for example: i dont PREFER blode hair), but can easily overlook something that insignificant. So long as overall i am attracted to and compatible with that person.

Edit: and just because i dont find something "attractive" about someone doesn't mean i "hate" that something about them, or hate that person. Its just a preference and that all. But if the way someone looks is the only reason why you wouldn't date them, then i suppose that might be a kind of prejudice (but not so sure of that).

[chaku]

I agree with heterosexuality being prejudiced towards people of the same sex to a certain extent... But, I think there is a very big difference between finding "women" attractive and hating the "ugly" ones than there is simply not finding men attractive at all. Ultimately, I think simply not being attracted to a certain sex is not nearly as big of a deal as believing another person should be treated less because you think they are ugly.

I don't see worshipping beauty as respectful to anyone. The difference between watching a sunset and attending a white power meeting is the sunset does not have feelings and worth as an individual.

I don't think masturbating to images of beautiful prostitutes is a remotely valuable way to exist. And, I do see it as disrespectful towards all of the people that you think are too ugly to be treated the same.

There is no value in physical appearances. Only hatred.

[chaku]

Ultimately, it comes down to a simple moral question. Is it moral to treat people differently because you think they are ugly? I believe this is wrong, myself, which is why I hate sexuality.

Would you not be someone's friend because you think they are ugly? Would you refuse them the right to drink out of a water fountain? Would you give them less opportunities in the work place? Should we make seperate bathrooms because they are just too ugly and should be treated differently?

Then why would you refuse them the equal right to a romantic relationship for this reason?

Simply put, beauty (or when applied to humanity it would be a form of physical supremacy) is a worthless concept based entirely out of hatred.

There are plenty of kind people that are not considered attractive at all. So... Why discriminate?

[Mark from the OCD board]

I think we are posting in circles, chaku, and I think the fault is mine. You are saying "it is evil" and I am saying "it is not evil." So, let me look at it your way:

Ultimately, it comes down to a simple moral question. Is it moral to treat people differently because you think they are ugly? I believe this is wrong, myself, which is why I hate sexuality.

...

Simply put, beauty (or when applied to humanity it would be a form of physical supremacy) is a worthless concept based entirely out of hatred.

I agree with you more than you think. The friend I mentioned a few posts back is often treated terribly because of her physical appearance. What she looks like has nothing to do with our friendship. As I said, she is one of the smartest people I know. In addition, she is a caring person and very funny. And... She's somebody I can share m/m slash with, as she both reads it and writes it. I don't care what she looks like.

I know that when I was very heavy some time back, I was also treated terribly. I remember one time when I walked up to a good-looking guy in a gay environment merely to tell him that he had dropped something, and he said "Ewwww. Get away from me." Can you believe it? I know the same sort of thing happens in the heterosexual community.

So, yes, that sort of thing can be called evil. (You believe in evil and I do not, but I am going with your belief system.)

But, as Sukuun pointed out, we do tend to date people who are compatible in a variety of ways, and physical appearance is usually one of them; however, as she also pointed out, we do make compromises. She likes blond hair, but I prefer dark hair. That does not rule out my falling for a blond or a redhead; brunettes are just my "type."

Some people only want Jessica Simpson. Most people are more realistic

Look at what I said earlier. You cannot stop the thoughts that go through your mind, as we humans are a mix of good and evil. If I were purely good, I'd be a god. Thinking about discrimination based on physical appearance is human. Acting on those thoughts is the true evil. I may consciously think someone ugly, but that does not mean I have to treat that person badly (unless that person happens to be someone whose abusive nature is not good for my well being--and there are plenty of those, some ugly and some beautiful).

Maybe beauty is indeed based on hatred; maybe it is not. As a sexual person, I cannot stop finding people sexually beautiful unless, of course, I blind myself. I am sure some deeply religious people have, just as some have castrated themselves. But that is religious extremism, and I think such people suffer from mental problems more severe than anything you or I have experienced.

If you truly believe an act is evil, don't do it. Don't hate yourself for thinking it; instead, praise yourself for not doing it.

[thylacine]

Chaku... check this out. I'm pretty and I'm not in a relationship (well, because I'm asexual and there aren't that many other asexual people around, naturally, I prefer my own species... ) AND as I go through life I see LOTS of ugly women in relationships. Some men like "plus sized ladies" and some men believe that if they marry an ugly woman she will never leave them (there is a song from 1950's "If yah want to be happy for the rest of your life, make an ugly girl your wife" -- because she will be so grateful she will never argue, leave, or nag, etc.) and some men just figure that if a woman is pretty she is already taken and don't bother to ask her out... so yah see, lots of ugly women are in relationships! You do not need to be a supermodel to get married!

[chaku]

Hey Mark, I do appreciate you trying to look at my perspective as well so we don't keep an endless circle of debate. I've looked at your perspective too, and I am happy you are following your beliefs.

So yes, I do believe it is evil to treat ugly people less, but I'm also a bitterly depressed and suicidal person. I have this problem with hating this world and wanting to leave it.

Maybe, I can cope with my beliefs and my perception, but it has seemed like I can't in the past. I just know I won't change them to cope with my surroundings and will follow my truths wherever they take me.

At this point, I'm trying to make my life less miserable somehow. Nearly every thought has become suicidal because I don't think there is anything that can make me happy in this world.

I don't think those who have not felt loneliness, truly understand it. And how much it hurts. I've felt alone for a very long time now. There isn't anyone to share my world view with. I can't really have relationships because I'm too evil to have a moral one.

[chaku]

Chaku... check this out. I'm pretty and I'm not in a relationship (well, because I'm asexual and there aren't that many other asexual people around, naturally, I prefer my own species... ) AND as I go through life I see LOTS of ugly women in relationships. Some men like "plus sized ladies" and some men believe that if they marry an ugly woman she will never leave them (there is a song from 1950's "If yah want to be happy for the rest of your life, make an ugly girl your wife" -- because she will be so grateful she will never argue, leave, or nag, etc.) and some men just figure that if a woman is pretty she is already taken and don't bother to ask her out... so yah see, lots of ugly women are in relationships! You do not need to be a supermodel to get married!

In the end, the most important thing is what I do. I try not to shirk my responsibilities of being a kind person by trusting that everyone else will do what I cannot.

I personally can't treat people that I find physically unattractive as a sexual person (and therefor my equal) so I know there is something very wrong there.

I try not to point out specific examples of things that I've found unattractive because I believe it is cruel towards those that have these traits. But, I have actually met women that physically repulsed me.

Why would I do that to someone? What did they do to deserve such a terrible treatment?

[chaku]

With all of this talk of blond hair, I figure it might be ok for me to say that I have very blond hair. Actually, it is very unusual for a guy to have straight blond hair about 3 and a half feet in length.

I think the reason why most people don't like blond hair on men is because it is not "the standard of society."

Barbie has blond hair, yet GI Joe does not. So, I've been personally treated less because of my hair. And I've been told things like, "I would never date a blond man."

Personally, hair color is about the absolute least important physical trait to me.

I do consider those that treat me differently because of my hair color as being hateful towards me. My hair color is who I am, just as my skin color is. I see it as the same thing as someone judging me for my skin color.

[P.V.P.]

Would you not be someone's friend because you think they are ugly?

Supposedly, beautiful people tend to have more friends, even as children...so I might overlook an ugly person as a potential friend because I wouldn't be naturally inclined to go up and talk to them. Beauty bias happens beyond the sexual level.

Would you refuse them the right to drink out of a water fountain?

No.

Would you give them less opportunities in the work place?

Because most people do this subconsciously, just as they subconsciously tend to approach beautiful people more often than ugly people, I predict that I would most likely do this as well were I in a position to do so. I certainly wouldn't do it on purpose, though...I'd try my best to judge someone by their job-relevant merits.

Should we make seperate bathrooms because they are just too ugly and should be treated differently?

No.

Then why would you refuse them the equal right to a romantic relationship for this reason?

Because people seem hard-wired to prefer personal interaction with beautiful people. You do not need to personally interact with ugly people in the toilet or at the drinking fountain most of the time. But in work and friendship situations, not to mention romantic, people usually do prefer beautiful people, and not necessarily in a sexual sense either. So most of us are evil.

Simply put, beauty (or when applied to humanity it would be a form of physical supremacy) is a worthless concept based entirely out of hatred.

Actually, IMO, it's based out of resourcefulness, not hatred. It's a very crude and antiquated way of determining which people are healthy and therefore a safe bet to help - ugly people are assumed to have some kind of illness or weakness other than just the way they look and therefore be beyond help. But now that we have our huge-ass frontal cortices to double check our decisions, we can - when our frontal corticies aren't too preoccupied with something else or overridden by a stronger impulse from elsewhere - double check such assumptions and realize that many ugly people have valuable things to offer our society and so we would benefit from helping them. And we can even take it a step further and argue that cost/benefit should not apply when you're talking about human beings, because every single sentient human life is inherently precious and no human would wish to be discriminated against (empathy).

So your sexual nature is extremely resourceful: it wants you to fuck as many beautiful women as possible, which, in the primitive lottery, would mean that you have a good chance of winning healthy babies to bring your genetic material into the future. Is that good, or is that evil?

In its original intention, you could easily argue that it was good: it wanted the best possible future for humanity that you could offer to humanity, and the best way to offer that future would, in ancient times, have been to produce lots of healthy offspring. And the best way to produce healthy offspring would be to find healthy mates. And the best, albeit crude, guess you had as to whether those mates were healthy was whether they were beautiful - i.e. had body fat in the right places and the right amounts, symmetrical facial features, etc.

But now you know that there are other ways, possibly kinder ways, to produce a good future for humanity. Like sticking up for the rights of ugly people, because even if they do carry a disability with their ugliness, that disability is not nearly as crippling in the developed modern world as it would be in harsher primordial conditions, and may even be accompanied by a gift such as deep compassion for other individuals for having suffered so much discrimination.

You have a strong moral sense. You can see the moral failings in typical, primitive ways as applied to our current situation. That suggests that you are not entirely evil. Unless the part of you judging yourself as evil is also evil, and so on, and the whole world is evil, and there's no hope for it...

But how could you judge the world as evil without the existence of good? You can't conceive of something like that without conceiving of an opposite. If you admit evil exists, then you have to admit good exists, and vice versa.

If you feel that ugly people deserve respect, or disabled people, or Black people, then what about people who aren't 100% morally upright in all their thoughts and deeds? Many of them have the potential to be good despite their being evil sometimes. Is it fair to dismiss them just because a "part" of them is evil? Should everyone be hated because everyone is sometimes evil?

If you support equal rights and treatment for all, why not start with treating yourself with the same basic human dignity you feel that everyone should afford everyone else? Then you'll know how it feels to be treated that way, and realize that if you go out and treat others that way, you can share that happiness with them.

I have struggled with self-hate too, and reasoned that if I hate myself for a certain trait, such as laziness, insecurity, conformism, dependence, or less-than-gifted-level IQ, then I can't argue with someone who says I hate them by extension because they also are lazy, insecure, conforming, dependent, or score mediocre on IQ tests. (And if I hate everyone who doesn't score in the gifted range on an IQ test, then I hate 97% of the population, or at least 97% of those who have taken psychologist-dispensed IQ tests if I refuse to make any assumptions about those who have not taken IQ tests. That's still a lot of people to hate.) It's no more moral to hate myself than it is to hate others. It's not moral to hate at all. Not even to hate yourself for being hateful, because damn, who isn't hateful sometimes? Or who wouldn't be raised in typical Western society? It's like any other disability, shortcoming, or imperfection.

I wouldn't recommend giving up on yourself. Your uncompromising morality could probably do a lot to help people, including the ugly people you may not want to fuck at first sight but whom you'd like to see treated with more dignity, if it's nurtured properly so that it can become more mature and flexible but still just as strong. Ability to bend can make something stronger, because it's less prone to breaking when a strong and sudden force is applied to it.

[Sukuun]

Would you not be someone's friend because you think they are ugly? Would you refuse them the right to drink out of a water fountain? Would you give them less opportunities in the work place? Should we make seperate bathrooms because they are just too ugly and should be treated differently?

Then why would you refuse them the equal right to a romantic relationship for this reason?

*Ok, I'm really trying to put myself in your shoes, so forgive me if go overboard on word semantics.* Well i wouldn't be refusing someone the equal right to a romantic relationship because they were ugly, I would be refusing them the potentially unsuccessful relationship due on a lack of mutual interest (in this case based on physical attraction). Why put myself in a relationship I don't feel comfortable in, whether it be a mutual physical attraction, or a mutual interest in music, or politics, or religion, or rather a lack there of? And i certainly wouldn't refuse ANYONE a drink of water from a water fountain. Nor would i give or deny anyone a job opputunity, friendship, etc, based on their appearance.

I am really trying to understand this, but i just have never experienced this. I have dated people that weren't "beautiful" people, and was told by friends and family they didn't see what i found attractive about them, but I DID think they were beautiful. I have dated Blondes even thought i prefer brunettes (i think i do, anyway :? ), but i only think/feel that way when put on the spot and asked what i prefer. But in truth i dont really take notice of that on the day to day dealings with people. Rather, I may notice they are male, or blonde, or Asian, or short, or skinny, but these things dont register as good and evil or pretty and ugly. I might be concerned about someone who is too skinny, or too fat, or too pale, or too tanned, or have bad posture or some other indication of being unhealthy, but thats not because i'm shallow or evil, it's because i've been a massage therapist for over 6 years and see people nearly-naked all the time, and have been trained to notice these things, but in a kind sensitive way. I am probably much more aware of the physical attributes of people than most, and have never been repulsed by anything. I have never found anyone to be "ugly"(not physically anyhow), but don't find everyone "ideal" to me. One of my ideals is black hair and green eyes, and i have yet to meet anyone in real life that has both. It's not common, it's not the "standard" of beauty in America, but its MY preference. But it's just a preference, not a "must have". I think i'm going to have to stop now because i am starting to feel like i'm getting condescending, but please don't take it that way, its not my intention. I just can't totally comprehend your point of view.