Are Xenogenders valid gender identities?

[LGBTAtreyu]

Hello! I am currently in my 3rd year of writing a new type of educational LGBTQIA+ book aiming to help people achieve a better understanding of the community through stories and other writing. If you want to contribute here is a link: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeKCCb0pNZKmtb5gTcRli14IVdWkXFDHM8UqMw7Ajw2KDYxBg/viewform

 

I'm making this post to ask some questions about Xenogenders, and if whether or not they are valid. My goal is not to offend anyone who identifies under a Xenogender label, I am just trying to understand them. From what I understand, Xenogenders are hyperspecific genders that describe someone's gender in a way that is outside of human understanding.

 

That's why it's called Xenogender, because Xeno describes alien. I can slightly understand this label, however, when I hear terms such as Cloudgender meaning a gender like a cloud, or Treegender, meaning a gender like a tree, then that's where I get kind of lost, and start to question whether or not these identies are valid. I am aware that currently many terms are being coined to mock the LGBTQIA+ community, but I'm pretty sure that's not the case for Xenogenders, but that doesn't aurtomatically mean they are valid. So if someone can help me understand that would be much appreicated!

 

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand, because I need to know how to adress this in the book I am currently compiling. Thank you.

[Ceebs]

Just a thought... maybe you should add a poll. Some people may want to answer your question without debating the topic.

[Rynn]

Friendly reminder that under current ToS, we don't allow invalidation of anyone's identity, be they standard or esoteric. This means that on AVEN you can't make the argument that xenogenders aren't valid. You can discuss their meaning and where they fit into everything, as a stand-alone gender or an add-on to a more conventional gender identity, but since people genuinely identify as xenogenders, xenogenders are valid identities to be.

A poll asking people whether xenogenders are valid yes or no is NOT a good idea.

Ryn, admin.

[Ceebs]

Should probably just lock the thread then...

[Rynn]

Please refer to these threads instead. It is more helpful to ask xenogender people to help you understand xenogenders, than to ask non-xenogender people whether they accept xenogenders or not.

 

 

[Possum.Lover]

8 minutes ago, Rynn said:

Please refer to these threads instead. It is more helpful to ask xenogender people to help you understand xenogenders, than to ask non-xenogender people whether they accept xenogenders or not.

 

 

Ah wow I’m surprised my thread is well enough to help people understand hahah <-< /lh /pos

 

 

But hey!  @LGBTAtreyu i am more than happy to explain xenogenders some more to you, and how xenogenders describe my psychology and how that impacts my gender :3

[Possum.Lover]

46 minutes ago, LGBTAtreyu said:

I'm making this post to ask some questions about Xenogenders, and if whether or not they are valid. My goal is not to offend anyone who identifies under a Xenogender label,

Just want to note that it’s probably better yo adjust the wording here. It’s kinda confusing to say “wether or no it’s valid” (which is already a non acceptable statement as said by a trusty mod) but then say “I don’t mean to offend”

 

it doesn’t make sense to bring an air of debate or identify and labels that people genuinely identity and say the intent is not to offend. Unfortunately you can’t have one or the other, but, besides validity debates..

 

There’s no real “need” persay when a xenogender is “valid or not”. In my own thoughts, it’s a very personal experience that people who don’t identify with a xenogender (even if they do, they aren’t the specific person either!) would never understand to the level the person who identifies with that does. Xenogenders are so individualistically defined its surprisingly hard to have a good definition besides identifying outside of the preconceived “feminine, masculine, androgyne and neutral”!

[Rynn]

34 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

Should probably just lock the thread then...

In my interpretation, the question was worded awkwardly, but was ultimately well-intentioned. I am hoping that redirecting the discussion to be more productive than just people going off on xenogender people (who already get enough shit, they don't need more), will work.

If not, we will always have locking the thread as a plan B.

[Janus the Fox]

Everything is valid, all human experiences are valid.  I do know there's massive debate elsewhere.  Some of it isn't pleasant from both the cis-normative and LGBT darker corners of communities.

[Possum.Lover]

23 minutes ago, Rynn said:

In my interpretation, the question was worded awkwardly, but was ultimately well-intentioned. I am hoping that redirecting the discussion to be more productive than just people going off on xenogender people (who already get enough shit, they don't need more), will work.

If not, we will always have locking the thread as a plan B.

Same here, I think the intent was to discuss the different perspectives on xenogenders, it was just very very very poorly conceived, BUT, really, OP a seems to have an open mind and intends to understand xenogenders better, so it’s worth a shot to redirect things

[binary suns]

lol no one who thinks xenogender isn't valid is going to respond, because they don't want to get a warning.

[RoseGoesToYale]

I don't see this thread going anywhere except to Locky McLockface.

[Snao Cone]

Are we all too cowardly to make the post that will get it locked? 🥴

 

Anyway, xenogenders seem to me like a dismissal of the traditional thinking of gender, like agender or nonbinary but with a tangential explanation. "I don't get why I would associate my mind with me body and the organs I have that not everybody does; I feel like my sense of self is better represented by [external thing] than femininity or masculinity" seems like a reasonable statement to make. When you get to the whole issue about whether they should be a part of general everyday gender discussion them I don't think it's common enough or relevant enough to hold space at that broader level. 

 

You know, it's kind of like kinks and fetishes in sexual orientation. We don't invest ourselves in the business of other people's specific sexual activity, so we don't look at those demographically like we do with the basic orientations (hetero-, homo-, bi-, a-). In more focused discussions about individual variation and experience we can and do, and I think the same goes for xenogender.

[Possum.Lover]

59 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

I don't see this thread going anywhere except to Locky McLockface.

“Locky McLockFace” 😭😭

[LGBTAtreyu]

Hello everyone, I'm sorry for the late response.

 

First off, I'd just like to apologise for my awkward wording. I'd just like to thank the moderator, Ryn for not locking my post and letting me know what I said wrong. I will try to be more careful in that regard in the future. Thank you to everyone for your in-depth explanations. They were very helpful. I would greatly appreciate, if I could be provided a little bit more information. For example, Possum.Lover, could you explain a bit more about Xenogenders? Also, I'm curious exactly what genders like Cloudgender and Treegender mean, as that is where I'm most lost on the topic. Thank you.

[Possum.Lover]

11 minutes ago, LGBTAtreyu said:

Possum.Lover, could you explain a bit more about Xenogenders? Also, I'm curious exactly what genders like Cloudgender and Treegender mean, as that is where I'm most lost on the topic.

Alright so, my thread that’s as shared links to a lot of cards and sites where they explain Xenogenders and answer some common questions! But! If you have more that the cards and thread do not answer please feel free to @ mention or quote me it

 

now! Treegender and cloudgender, as I said, xenogenders arr very personal for each person, so the definitions I bring up will likely not be the same case for everyone! Everyone defines their own xenogender differently!

 

So for cloudgender I can think of a few things, like light and fluffy like a cloud, or the overal aesthetic of clouds can be applied to a persons gender identity!

 

as for treegender it could mean how they identify could be rooted into tree and flora or maybe the metaphorical definition of the tree is why someone is connected to it

 

really, it has to do what your gender feels like, or how you feel about it. 
 

here, how about a question, what would you say your gender felt like without naming it the following: masculine, feminine, androgyne, neutral, male, female, man, woman and so on. What would you describe your gender like?

[LGBTAtreyu]

I would probably describe my gender as simply "me" if couldn't describe it as under any of those terms. But your explanation was helpful. Now, I better understand. I havnen't fully wrapped my head around it, but get the overall concept. Again, thank you.

[Possum.Lover]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:22 PM, LGBTAtreyu said:

I would probably describe my gender as simply "me" if couldn't describe it as under any of those terms. But your explanation was helpful. Now, I better understand. I havnen't fully wrapped my head around it, but get the overall concept. Again, thank you.

Sorry I didn’t see this any sooner but glad I could help!

[Aries A.]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:50 PM, LGBTAtreyu said:

I will try to be more careful in that regard in the future

Why didn't you edit it, if so?

 

Anyway:

On 1/15/2022 at 6:26 PM, LGBTAtreyu said:

hyperspecific genders

Not more "hyperspecific" than binary genders and surely not more "hyperspecific' than "just me", which obviously specific for only you (and most people don't describe their gender as "just me", so i really don't get your point) Anyway, the word is arbitrary and implies some kind of "too much", and already says it's applied to something "unnessesary" and for the reason inaccepting of xenogenders

 

On 1/15/2022 at 6:26 PM, LGBTAtreyu said:

genders that describe someone's gender in a way that is outside of human understanding.

It's not a definition, you can't define something just by saying it's "outside of human understanding", it's a describsion but doesn't fit my definition of a definition (and it's obviously inaccurate, as some humans do identify as xenogenders, and has some implications of everyone who is xenogender being otherkin or something) It was in the original definition, but it's not even the original definition itself (anyway, i think certain xenogenders existed before the term "xenogender", which is an umbrella term for any gender which is described or felt through or with a help of nouns/concepts unrelated to western gender binary (for this reason saying that xenogenders are "outside of human understanding" kinda implies that western gender binary is somehow inherently human, which is false))

The concepts in xenogenders may relate to different things, they are different for different people, but some examples may be based on certain things giving gender euphoria for a non-binary person in a way people may relate blue or pink to binary genders, or emotional synesthesia in Autistic people applied to gender, or something in person's life affecting how the person perceives their gender or gender in general in a way that they want to state it. In addition to this, people may describe amative genders with nouns (explaination of the terms in the links)

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Affinitive_Genders

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Amative_Orientations

like for a way of experiensing a gender (see schrodigender) or for conditional genderfluidity (see astrogender), which may sound simular to affirmative xenogenders for an outside observer and may also be considered xenogenders, and yet are different from affirmative xenogenders as you see

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Schrodigender

https://www.lgbtqia.wiki/wiki/Astrogender

 

On 1/15/2022 at 6:26 PM, LGBTAtreyu said:

but that doesn't aurtomatically mean they are valid

What do you mean? And what does the word "valid" mean, can you define it? I'm not a native English speaker and I can hardly understand it (Does this mean the word "valid" is invalid to me?)

At the same time, if something is "valid", it seems to lead to respecting your identity, accepting it as real, not thinking xenogenders are "sarcastic" and not bullying you, and generally if you're saying what xenogenders are valid, it may be a marker what you're likely not ablist (even though you technically don't have to be neurodivergent for identifying as xenogender, xenogenders still usually are strongly linked to neurodivergent experience) and not transphobic and therefore safe to interact with. For that reason, Ashe said this before

On 1/15/2022 at 8:41 PM, Burgundy Ashe said:

lol no one who thinks xenogender isn't valid is going to respond, because they don't want to get a warning.

but, people who are xenogender are probably unlikely to respond as well, and may just think this is just a thread to mock xenogenders. You may see the title as "provocative", but most people probably are just going to ignore it (or may find it too triggering to answer), expecially neurodivergent youngsters, who I think are likely to be the majority of people identifying as xenogender. Actually, I'm only answering at least after a month or two after I've read this and decided to answer (and this probably wasn't even the first time I've seen this, I probably just ignored this before, but don't remember, maybe not), I usually was too tired for a text this long or too emotional at your wording to answer

 

So this

Edit: well, some of this is just a dislike of terminology though

Edit 2: i mean, saying xenogenders are outside of human understanding isn't offensive, as it was in the original definition and it's how some xenogender people define it, though i think you should use the whole definition and not just the most confusing part of it in the case (and i personally still dislike it though) Yet i personally find calling xenogenders "hyperspecific" offensive

Also, it may be a bit too late, but i don't think questioning people's gender is fun, and i think it's better to rename the topic