help me to explain sex neutral

[americax]

My friend and I have been talking about how her friend just does not understand sex-neutral asexuality. He doesn't understand how all asexuals are not sex-repulsed, and also does not understand that an asexual person can be okay with or even like sex without Finishing, which is what my/our friend is like... so basically he doesn't understand her. He seems a little "problematic," like a stereotypical het-male, even though he claims that his sex is for his woman and less for him own pleasure, but doesn't like when they don't Finish (regardless of their sexuality). We just can't get him to see it, no matter the metaphor and showing him shit online definitely doesn't work, but I thought I'd ask the lovely people here on AVEN. Any ideas? 

[Guest]

Neutral viewpoints are generally easily summarized as indifferent.

 

For example, small kids usually hate vegetables. Old people often actually like vegetables. Most adults don't necessarily like vegetables, but they'll eat them because they don't particularly dislike them either.

 

[Zagadka]

I would also use indifferent instead of neutral.

 

Also, where is this idea that aces just can't finish? It is about the attraction/desire to have sex, not so much about not enjoying it or not being able to achieve orgasm with a partner. It isn't that a sex indifferent or positive ace can't have sex, it is just that... we don't want to. It can be enjoyable, sure, but overall, just not looking for it. It is slightly uncomfortable and I'd rather do better things with someone. The orgasm itself is a brief exclamation point; there are other levels of sensual enjoyment etc we can enjoy.

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 hour ago, Zagadka... but witchy said:

I would also use indifferent instead of neutral.

"Sex-neutral" is rather a political stance, one which is neither sex-positive nor sex-negative. That said, I consider mixing up "sex-neutral" and "sex-indifferent" much less serious an error that when "sex-positive" is used to mean "open to having sex". I am not sex-positive myself, in the proper meaning of this word (neither, obviously, in this very distorted meaning) - but there are many aces who are politically sex-positive without being sex-favourable, and they need a way to safely express their views.

[Zagadka]

3 minutes ago, everywhere and nowhere said:

"Sex-neutral" is rather a political stance, one which is neither sex-positive nor sex-negative. That said, I consider mixing up "sex-neutral" and "sex-indifferent" much less serious an error that when "sex-positive" is used to mean "open to having sex". I am not sex-positive myself, in the proper meaning of this word (neither, obviously, in this very distorted meaning) - but there are many aces who are politically sex-positive without being sex-favourable, and they need a way to safely express their views.

From the context of the OP, I was getting that the confusion was about personal participation in sex, not the social view of it.

[everywhere and nowhere]

Just now, Zagadka... but witchy said:

From the context of the OP, I was getting that the confusion was about personal participation in sex, not the social view of it.

Yes, I understand it too. I was just pointing out that I find it a less confunsing, less serious misunderstanding than when "sex-positive" is used to mean "sex-favourable".

[americax]

CONTEXT: 

 

My friend refers to herself as sex-neutral, so I was respecting her; I do understand how that can be mixed up with being somewhere between sex-positive and sex-negative tho, so I am talking about sex-indifferent. 

 

We were talking about specifics to a few people, not a whole population concept. He thinks the goal of sex is to Finish, where she doesn't. For her it doesn't matter and she can't understand. 

[Zagadka]

I'd try to explain that the enjoyable part of things in general is the journey, not the destination. The people we're with along the way. But I guess some people just won't understand that?

[SithLord]

Kind of like the journey not the destination thing, you can ask him if people enjoy road trips just to get where they want to go or if some people just enjoy the driving, sight-seeing, stopping at random unknown places, etc. 

[Snao Cone]

1 hour ago, americax said:

We were talking about specifics to a few people, not a whole population concept. He thinks the goal of sex is to Finish, where she doesn't. For her it doesn't matter and she can't understand. 

It sounds like he could use a wider understanding of sexuality, particularly of non-cishet sexual activities. The idea of "finishing" (in a very male sense of orgasming and ejaculating) being the central goal of sexual activity seems quite narrow. It seems like it might be a hangup on feeling like the show needs to have a stunning conclusion to be impressive, or else it doesn't count as sex. If he thinks that the sex he has centers around his partner's pleasure, then it still seems like he's expecting that to mirror his experience of climaxing, which is not the case for the majority of people with female anatomy. Sometimes some stimulation can feel really good even without coming to a climax.

 

As a sex-indifferent asexual myself, that would mean that none of the sex I've had with other people counts. I've gotten bored of it too early on to keep mentally in the moment, but I wasn't in a negative space about it either. It was just...an act that I was engaged in, which people are supposed to like. But I haven't had sex since identifying as asexual, though, so I didn't have the same perspective of it at the time.

[americax]

1 hour ago, Snaoktoberfest said:

If he thinks that the sex he has centers around his partner's pleasure, then it still seems like he's expecting that to mirror his experience of climaxing, which is not the case for the majority of people with female anatomy.

This is true, I also think he is too focused on what het-males think women want in het-sex without ever asking a woman. Like he may have, but like, even with his idea that "it's for her and not him," he can't seem to wrap his mind around her wanting something different than maybe what males want. 

 

He really just doesn't understand lack of attraction, and maybe that someone else's idea of sex is different than his. 

[Zagadka]

9 minutes ago, americax said:

This is true, I also think he is too focused on what het-males think women want in het-sex without ever asking a woman. ... He really just doesn't understand ... that someone else's idea of sex is different than his. 

Describing a large portion of het cis males.

[Ceebs]

11 hours ago, Diabolical Diatribe said:

For example, small kids usually hate vegetables. Old people often actually like vegetables. Most adults don't necessarily like vegetables, but they'll eat them because they don't particularly dislike them either.

Damn, I've loved vegetables all my life. #heretic

 

/off-topic post

[Sally]

According to the two sexual males I knew quite well, they and their friends were not  at all happy if they didn't experience the "finish."  That didn't mean they didn't enjoy the journey or that they weren't interested in pleasing their female partners, but there needed to be a destination for them to be happy.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Sally said:

According to the two sexual males I knew quite well, they and their friends were not  at all happy if they didn't experience the "finish."  That didn't mean they didn't enjoy the journey or that they weren't interested in pleasing their female partners, but there needed to be a destination for them to be happy.  

Am an allosexual AMAB, can confirm. It's about how much frustration not "ending it" causes and the way that involves physical discomfort, not that I don't enjoy pleasuring the other person or the journey to reach the end. I very much enjoy all three things.

[Mountain House]

 

1 hour ago, Diabolical Diatribe said:

Am an allosexual AMAB, can confirm.

Am an allosexual AMAB, disagree.  I remember when I believed orgasms were the key.  Your experience does not speak for all sexual males so you can agree but you cannot confirm.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

 

Am an allosexual AMAB, disagree.  I remember when I believed orgasms were the key.  Your experience does not speak for all sexual males so you can agree but you cannot confirm.

Neither the person I responded to nor I made a claim on behalf of all allosexual AMABs, just saying....

[Mountain House]

7 minutes ago, Diabolical Diatribe said:

Neither the person I responded to nor I made a claim on behalf of all allosexual AMABs, just saying....

She identified the two sexual males she knew and all of their friends, which is a way of saying all sexual males as she understands them.  Then you drop in a confirmation which gives the statement the weight of truth.

 

So, from my reading, you did make a claim for all sexual males.

 

You could have said, yeah, it's that way for me too, or, I can confirm that it is that way for me.  I get it, that is what you meant but that is not what you said.

 

Confirm is a big word.

 

I can confirm that I can be pedantic.

[Ceebs]

1 hour ago, Mountain House said:

I can confirm that I can be pedantic.

Own it. 😂 One of my favourite traits in people, haha.

[R66forM]

I refer to my ace as sex neutral for the first 27-28 years of our relationship/marriage. 

 

She did not know she was ace.  We had lots of intimate fun.  Kids.  Then when menopause brought pain, she became sex averse or negative.    That lead to her eventually telling me "it's not you, I am not attracted sexually to anyone,  even thought about if I was gay, but nope there too".   Which lead to my Google search to find this site and other resources. 

 

As we learned thru discussion and counseling,  there are many things that make it pretty clear she was always ace, even pre-dating meeting me.   So many things.

 

Anyway,  don't know much about technical labels, but that's how I use 'sex neutral' in my mixed marriage. 

 

Happy to discuss more here or in PM if my perspective would be helpful. 

 

In regards to OP, her finishing was not regular or important to her.  While I suspect it is not required for some sexual women, that was definitely one of the many indicators.   Didn't really impact the intimate fun, though!

 

 

[americax]

1 hour ago, R66forM said:

I refer to my ace as sex neutral for the first 27-28 years of our relationship/marriage. 

 

She did not know she was ace.  We had lots of intimate fun.  Kids.  Then when menopause brought pain, she became sex averse or negative.    That lead to her eventually telling me "it's not you, I am not attracted sexually to anyone,  even thought about if I was gay, but nope there too".   Which lead to my Google search to find this site and other resources. 

 

As we learned thru discussion and counseling,  there are many things that make it pretty clear she was always ace, even pre-dating meeting me.   So many things.

 

Anyway,  don't know much about technical labels, but that's how I use 'sex neutral' in my mixed marriage. 

 

Happy to discuss more here or in PM if my perspective would be helpful. 

 

In regards to OP, her finishing was not regular or important to her.  While I suspect it is not required for some sexual women, that was definitely one of the many indicators.   Didn't really impact the intimate fun, though!

 

 

I hope this isn't odd, but I am glad you and your partner have been able to navigate change and a slight contrast in sexuality. It's also always nice to hear someone trying to learn to help their partner instead of blame or abandon them. It's also good to know that you - and presumably other people - get that sex can be sex without both people Finishing for it to be fun. 

 

7 hours ago, Sally said:

According to the two sexual males I knew quite well, they and their friends were not  at all happy if they didn't experience the "finish."  That didn't mean they didn't enjoy the journey or that they weren't interested in pleasing their female partners, but there needed to be a destination for them to be happy.  

I feel like the stereotype I know about het/allo males is this. It's something that I sort of thought was feed to me over years and untrue, but I also keep hearing it and things like it over and over. 

 

I was trying to think of a metaphor to use, and I somehow I thought to compare Finishing as the goal of sex to what a goal in soccer (football) is. Goal happen, sometimes they don't, sometimes there's more than one, sometimes they're taken away, and games don't usually end with a goal. Replace "goal" with "orgasm" and "the game" with "sex," the game is still fun regardless, or at least hopefully. Multiple goals would be nice, but none doesn't mean it's bad or unenjoyable. A goal being taken away might be an orgasm that sucks for some reason. And the whole game can be good between goals. 

Just a thought. 

[R66forM]

1 hour ago, americax said:

I hope this isn't odd, but I am glad you and your partner have been able to navigate change and a slight contrast in sexuality. It's also always nice to hear someone trying to learn to help their partner instead of blame or abandon them. It's also good to know that you - and presumably other people - get that sex can be sex without both people Finishing for it to be fun. 

Not odd at all!

 

The 'slight contrast' was when she was sex neutral, wanted kids, was pain-free and had no idea about asexuality.  Last 4-5 years, it's anything but 'slight', and hard to manage for both of us.    Prior to this,  I was as happy walking in the rain as in sunshine, clueless to what depression was...now I am very aware of depression and fight to hold my head high walking into work on gray,  rainy days.

 

Compromise is far from ideal for either person.  But definitely a path forward, and a way to make the needed emotional connection while having some intimate fun.