Xenogender Appreciation

[a little annihilation]

Xenogender is an umbrella term for non-binary gender identities that cannot be fully described through their relation to concepts typically used to describe gender such as masculinity, femininity, androgyny, neutrality, agenrity, or outherinity. Instead, xenogenders can best be described through how they relate to things, beings, or concepts that most people don't think of as having to do with gender, such as animals, plants, things, or concepts. It is sometimes described as any gender that "cannot be contained by human understandings of gender". The gender quality associated with xenogenders is xeninity. The opposite of xenogender is anthrogender. https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Xenogender

(I know that LGBTQIA+ wiki is a slippery slope but hopefully in this case I think it's sufficient)

Okay so I do not make topics very often (ever) but I feel like I need to make this one, or at the very least should make it, because there is this weird stigma around the concept of xenogenders (and neopronouns since they often go hand in hand) and I understand why, but like.... Why really? 

(Some people say it makes trans people as a whole look bad but like ok to be honest whoever thinks badly about trans people is going to think badly about trans people regardless, I don't think that someone who truly isn't transphobic is gonna turn transphobic at the discovery of xenogender, I just thought I get that out of the way)

I get that like at first glance it doesn't really seems to make any sense in reality because yes it is a very different thing than what society is used to. But like, if you think about it it's not that much weirder than binary gender. Binary gender is just more accepted. I personally don't understand gender at all. 

Folks, I love identifying as a leaf. It is fun and it feels so nice and authentic to me. Why shouldn't people be able to do that if they want? It is literally not hurting anyone at all. 

I thought I'd make this thread in case anyone else wanted to discuss xenogender or have a space to talk about experiences identifying as such, :) 

[SleuthArt]

I'm gendervoid and ID with the xenogenders of cirrugender and creamic. :3 thanks for making this thread. https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Cirrugender https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Creamic

 

I use cirrugender to describe the times when my gender is very light and wispy, and I use creamic to describe when my gender feels thick, dense and smooth. So it's basically a metaphor for the strength or "weight" of my gender, how strong it feels at a given time. It may seem oxymoronic to think that gendervoid can feel strong, but the absence of gender itself can feel very heavy or light. hope that makes sense 

 

At the same time, sometimes I feel like a cloud itself, a very inhuman presence, floating along, existing. And clouds are very soft, puffy, floofy, and I like that it's part of my identity

[A User]

as long as you're being serious by IDing as something and not being a troll about it then be whoever tf you wanna be

Edited September 7, 2021 by A User
making intentions clearer + spice

[SilenceRadio]

On 9/6/2021 at 3:18 AM, løvely said:

Okay so I do not make topics very often (ever) but I feel like I need to make this one, or at the very least should make it, because there is this weird stigma around the concept of xenogenders (and neopronouns since they often go hand in hand) and I understand why, but like.... Why really?

From the criticism that I've seen, it's that:

1. There hasn't been any "proof" for them: most people would rather have evidence than blindly believe others I suppose.
2. It seems more connected to one's self and interests rather than one's gender. Some say they are fine with it, but are less with it being attached to gender. Which I suppose leads to...

On 9/6/2021 at 3:18 AM, løvely said:

(Some people say it makes trans people as a whole look bad but like ok to be honest whoever thinks badly about trans people is going to think badly about trans people regardless, I don't think that someone who truly isn't transphobic is gonna turn transphobic at the discovery of xenogender, I just thought I get that out of the way) [...] Why shouldn't people be able to do that if they want? It is literally not hurting anyone at all.

I hear that argument often, and it's probably me being dumb, but I'm not really convinced? It's true that trans people are not responsible for their oppression, and that a person suddenly being transmisic probably did not have a solid ground of understanding to begin with. However, transmisia isn't "on" or "off", or intrinsic to oneself: it can be a scale as well. Some people might just be tolerant rather than accepting, and stuff could tip them to the scale of intolerance. And if they're the parent of a trans person (especially child), it could create complications. I'm not saying that people with xenogenders are to blame, just that I don't get the argument. Also, not all people with xenogenders consider themselves trans: some are nonbinary, others are purely cis. They can be related, but are not the same. So I'm not sure if hatred toward xenogenders would necessarily count as transmisia.

 

On 9/6/2021 at 3:18 AM, løvely said:

Folks, I love identifying as a leaf. It is fun and it feels so nice and authentic to me.

I've heard you talk about it here and there in the forum, and I'm glad it works for you! I've heard you say that it was a form of metaphor as well, could you expand on that? How is that related to your gender?

[a little annihilation]

12 hours ago, SleuthArt said:

:3 thanks for making this thread.

I'm glad to

[a little annihilation]

12 minutes ago, SilenceRadio said:

I've heard you say that it was a form of metaphor as well, could you expand on that? How is that related to your gender?

The metaphor is that leafs don't have genders they are literally just leaves (this metaphor isn't perfect because some plants have different reproductive pieces and are called male and female but I'm talking about leaves as a whole, most people do not associate leaves with gender), and if you put a dress on a leaf that doesn't make it a girl leaf, it makes it a leaf with a dress on. I feel like leaves for the most part are pretty removed from what society calls masculine and feminine, which sometimes can be hard to escape. Besides the metaphor about being genderless, I've always felt really connected to leaves. The concept of gender makes less and less sense to me the more that I think about it, and I know that I am definitely not a girl, and leaf fits the bill for me in correlation with how I feel and how I feel about myself personally in terms of gender. So, leaf is both how I identify and is also, I feel, a decent metaphor it.

[SleuthArt]

1 hour ago, løvely said:

The metaphor is that leafs don't have genders they are literally just leaves (this metaphor isn't perfect because some plants have different reproductive pieces and are called male and female but I'm talking about leaves as a whole, most people do not associate leaves with gender), and if you put a dress on a leaf that doesn't make it a girl leaf, it makes it a leaf with a dress on. I feel like leaves for the most part are pretty removed from what society calls masculine and feminine, which sometimes can be hard to escape. Besides the metaphor about being genderless, I've always felt really connected to leaves. The concept of gender makes less and less sense to me the more that I think about it, and I know that I am definitely not a girl, and leaf fits the bill for me in correlation with how I feel and how I feel about myself personally in terms of gender. So, leaf is both how I identify and is also, I feel, a decent metaphor it.

this is lovely /gen

[SilenceRadio]

19 hours ago, løvely said:

The metaphor is that leafs don't have genders they are literally just leaves (this metaphor isn't perfect because some plants have different reproductive pieces and are called male and female but I'm talking about leaves as a whole, most people do not associate leaves with gender)

That reminds me that back when I was questioning, I would look at birds and like how it was hard to ascribe a gender to those that weren't dimorphic. I could see the appeal of IDing with mostly genderless concepts. 

 

20 hours ago, løvely said:

if you put a dress on a leaf that doesn't make it a girl leaf, it makes it a leaf with a dress on.

I once read a butch saying that if they wore a skirt, that only made them a "butch in skirt". The sentiment is familiar here.

 

Do you ID as something over than a leaf?

[a little annihilation]

45 minutes ago, SilenceRadio said:

Do you ID as something over than a leaf?

Not really in terms of gender, besides non binary. 

[Star Crossed Loner]

I actually believe xenogenders are the future as they could be the key to replace our neurotypical white European cultural notions of gender, which are flawed and empty in meaning. 

 

How do I dare to say that? Just simply try defining what's like to be a man or a woman? You just cant tell apart, because there's men and woman of "all kinds, colours, shapes and sizes", there's masculine men and masculine women, theres feminine men and feminine women, there's men and women of the male sex, there's women and men of the female sex, androgynous women and androgynous men, pregnant women and pregnant men, and yet nobody found a better criteria to tell them a part.

 

At least currently, man and woman turned out into vague labels/words that broadly and so vaguely and arbitrarily lump and include together very diverse human individuals into boxes of sociocultural groups.

 

 

About xenogenders, they can be used as better descriptors for individuals than man and woman are, if we take them as metaphors instead of silly jokes, and Why?

 

I will give you a concrete example, last month i stumbled across a person who identified as a cat for her gender identity, and why would she seriously identify as a cat? 

 

She explained that because the definition of woman is something so broad it's vague as theres women of all kinds out there, saying she identifies with cats or relate with cats describes her better, metaphorically, as her personality fits like what's commonly imagined or expected of cats to be like shy, cute, delicate, independent, lonely, needy, smart, urbane, etc.

[a little annihilation]

3 hours ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

I actually believe xenogenders are the future as they could be the key to replace our neurotypical white European cultural notions of gender, which are flawed and empty in meaning. 

 

How do I dare to say that? Just simply try defining what's like to be a man or a woman? You just cant tell apart, because there's men and woman of "all kinds, colours, shapes and sizes", there's masculine men and masculine women, theres feminine men and feminine women, there's men and women of the male sex, there's women and men of the female sex, androgynous women and androgynous men, pregnant women and pregnant men, and yet nobody found a better criteria to tell them a part.

 

At least currently, man and woman turned out into vague labels/words that broadly and so vaguely and arbitrarily lump and include together very diverse human individuals into boxes of sociocultural groups.

 

 

About xenogenders, they can be used as better descriptors for individuals than man and woman are, if we take them as metaphors instead of silly jokes, and Why?

 

I will give you a concrete example, last month i stumbled across a person who identified as a cat for her gender identity, and why would she seriously identify as a cat? 

 

She explained that because the definition of woman is something so broad it's vague as theres women of all kinds out there, saying she identifies with cats or relate with cats describes her better, metaphorically, as her personality fits like what's commonly imagined or expected of cats to be like shy, cute, delicate, independent, lonely, needy, smart, urbane, etc.

I wish everyone was so open 

[Star Crossed Loner]

1 minute ago, løvely said:

I wish everyone was so open 

You know what? Even as a transgender non-binary person myself i held misconceptions and didn't took those who identifies as xenogenders as legitimate as other transgender identities, all because I didn't understood all the nuances behind them until i stumbled across this one person whom identified as a cat and explained her condition clear enough for me to change my mind.

 

Some people do change with education tho, others just dont want to know or care, and usually its easier for those who are already minorities to understand, but that's not always the case if you look at people like Kalvin Garrah.

[Star Crossed Loner]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:58 PM, SilenceRadio said:

From the criticism that I've seen, it's that:

1. There hasn't been any "proof" for them: most people would rather have evidence than blindly believe others I suppose.

Okay, I will arguee on that, starting with the fundamental notion that the definitions of (what makes a) man and a woman are sociocultural hiatorical human constrcts as in they are arbitrary or as in made up if you prefer simpler language, and Why? Because they changed over time as in when people say they are historical, and also mean different things depending upon the culture of a society in a given point in time and space.

 

You can see that within time people started to see that liking men doesn't make a man less of a man, being feminine doesn't make a man less of a man, and, ultimately, being of the feminine sex doesn't make a man less of a man, realizations which are still groundbreaking for the beliefs of many people out there.

 

What im basically trying to explain here is that ALL gender identities, including those you are more familiar with like man and woman, and those you are less familiar with like xenogenders are made up by humans.

 

On 9/7/2021 at 4:58 PM, SilenceRadio said:

It seems more connected to one's self and interests rather than one's gender. Some say they are fine with it, but are less with it being attached to gender. Which I suppose leads to...

 

Xenogenders actually works better as metaphorical despritors for the personality, encompassing the expressions, behaviors, tastes, interests, styles and appearances, of somebody, more than other gender identities, like man, woman or other non-binary gender identities, which all are, at this currently point in time, too broad to define a whole group of diverse people.

 

Thanks for listening to my TeD Talk.

[Guest]

.

[SilenceRadio]

16 hours ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

Okay, I will argue on that, starting with the fundamental notion that the definitions of (what makes a) man and a woman are sociocultural historical human constructs as in they are arbitrary or as in made up if you prefer simpler language, and Why? Because they changed over time as in when people say they are historical, and also mean different things depending upon the culture of a society in a given point in time and space.

True. Gender is a social construct to the extent that we have given it different names and meanings throughout history. That does not mean that gender is necessarily arbitrary or completely made-up, and that it does describe an experience rooted in reality, although perceived through our "human" understanding of them.

 

20 hours ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

I actually believe xenogenders are the future as they could be the key to replace our neurotypical white European cultural notions of gender, which are flawed and empty in meaning.

The way gender is often described nowadays is very broad, and so I can completely get how someone can feel that it's "flawed" or "empty in meaning". I suppose our opinions diverge in ways to solve this issue, in that I don't think xenogenders are the solution. In my eyes, the binary genders aren't going anywhere, and completely erasing the "neurotypical white European cultural notions of gender" could take away the language from gender dysphoric people. After all, the concept of "gender", outside of "sex", "gender roles", "gender expression" and others, was meant to explain why people felt like they had to be a gender other than the one corresponding to the sex they were assigned, and why some needed to transition, socially or medically, to feel much better, more like themselves.

 

I don't feel the need to transition, I have no gender incongruence, and although I am deeply annoyed at times by the needless separation some make between genders, I am comfortable in the gender that I was assigned, and feel like identifying as anything else would only be digging the "gender lines" deeper and in more artificial ways (or alternatively, broadening them too much). Of course, gender is delineated differently depending on where people view the lines, which is fine since we can't access the Truth About Gender, and I don't think there is any universal one, since there are too many exceptions to make a model that fits everyone (and there doesn't need to be a model that fits everyone, I'm not sure if it would even be possible). 

 

16 hours ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

Xenogenders actually work better as metaphorical descriptors for the personality, encompassing the expressions, behaviors, tastes, interests, styles and appearances, of somebody, more than other gender identities, like man, woman or other non-binary gender identities, which all are, at this currently point in time, too broad to define a whole group of diverse people.

[...]

About xenogenders, they can be used as better descriptors for individuals than man and woman are

[...]

At least currently, man and woman turned out into vague labels/words that broadly and so vaguely and arbitrarily lump and include together very diverse human individuals into boxes of sociocultural groups.

I don't get it. Gender wasn't meant to describe personality. In fact, associating personality to gender is what leads to sexism. So the fact that genders like "man" or "woman" do not convey personality, behaviors or tastes is not a failure of gender, the same way that a fish unable to climb a tree is not being a failure of a fish. It never was meant to be the goal. The separation between sex and gender seemed to have been made to understand why people could have different gender(s) than the ones they were assigned, or that people still knew what their gender is meant to be despite living as another gender or having lost sexed body parts (the unfortunate case of David Reimer is an example of that).

 

It's true that we often attach appearances to concepts, and gender is no exemption to that. I suppose it's a limitation of our imagination sometimes, or a lack of experience in diverse gender expressions. We all know what a table is, what it approximately looks like, and yet this is still defined as a table, despite not being the first conceptualization that comes to mind. Gender, like the word "table", are broad categories, and like most broad categories, are not often specific, but they're useful. There are words associated with gender (albeit arbitrarily), bodies associated with gender, and so on. Xenogenders seem to describe a deeper type of self-conception and personality more than genders like man, woman and nonbinary, which is why to me they feel a bit disconnected to what I've mostly seen gender being described as. A big realization during my gender questioning was knowing that my gender wasn't my personality, that it didn't have to be a big thing to me, and that if anything, it probably pointed toward me being cis. Gender not describing one's personaliy isn't a bug, but a feature. Gender doesn't have to mean anything to me but a fact, just something I happen to be, and happen to be fine with.

[Possum.Lover]

Honestly I love Xenogenders, they help me understand my identity so so much better, I have a bit of a pile of labels but here’s some

 

oppossugender

ADHDgender

Neurogender (the label by itself)

Genderblanket

I have a few more but I love being xenic, it helps me out into what I feel and I love that :]

[Possum.Lover]

On 9/9/2021 at 12:56 PM, SilenceRadio said:

Xenogenders seem to describe a deeper type of self-conception and personality more than genders like man, woman and nonbinary, which is why to me they feel a bit disconnected to what I've mostly seen gender being described as. A big realization during my gender questioning was knowing that my gender wasn't my personality, that it didn't have to be a big thing to me, and that if anything, it probably pointed toward me being cis. Gender not describing one's personaliy isn't a bug, but a feature.

I would like to note xenogenders simply fall completely outside traditional understanding of gende, it’s gender but outside the spectrum it’s described through personality aswell as other things. Much like how neurodiversity takes real world concepts but addresses them differently compared to how neurotypical people addresses it. I hope I made sense and I don’t mean to insult anything because I do agree gender  isn’t necessarily personality based traditionally but xenogenders take it outside of general understanding because it’s more personal based and has to do with the specific person much much more /nm /gen

[Possum.Lover]

On 9/8/2021 at 7:39 PM, Star Crossed Loner said:

Xenogenders actually works better as metaphorical despritors for the personality, encompassing the expressions, behaviors, tastes, interests, styles and appearances, of somebody, more than other gender identities, like man, woman or other non-binary gender identities, which all are, at this currently point in time, too broad to define a whole group of diverse people

This!!

 

this like like, the NUMBER ONE way to best describe xenogenders and I’m so glad it’s being said here, we aren’t actually identifying as an opossum or whatever but we connect to it and associate with gender as this object thing or place best describes what’s going on upstairs

[Star Crossed Loner]

5 hours ago, Possum.Lover said:

This!!

 

this like like, the NUMBER ONE way to best describe xenogenders and I’m so glad it’s being said here, we aren’t actually identifying as an opossum or whatever but we connect to it and associate with gender as this object thing or place best describes what’s going on upstairs

Hey There? Wanna help those people have a better time? Then Do us a favor and quote my words out there and credit me then if you like them so much, thanks.

[Possum.Lover]

9 minutes ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

Hey There? Wanna help those people have a better time? Then Do us a favor and quote my words out there and credit me then if you like them so much, thanks.

Isn’t it one of the more common phrases that’s pro xenogender though? Sorry I’m a bit confused what message ur trying to convey /g

[Star Crossed Loner]

48 minutes ago, Possum.Lover said:

Isn’t it one of the more common phrases that’s pro xenogender though? Sorry I’m a bit confused what message ur trying to convey /g

I was talking about spreading information instead of letting it just die in the void.

[Janus the Fox]

While Agender myself, I see myself more of the Female sex, rather than the female gender.

 

Guess it's a kind of Foxy Femme Janusgender

[Possum.Lover]

59 minutes ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

I was talking about spreading information instead of letting it just die in the void.

Ahh! Yeah! More than happy to! :3

[Star Crossed Loner]

1 hour ago, Janus the Fox said:

While Agender myself, I see myself more of the Female sex, rather than the female gender.

 

Guess it's a kind of Foxy Femme Janusgender

Thats interesting, I dont remember where but once I read somewhere about a cisgender woman who wanted to be a transgender woman, as in a woman of the male sex, I guess the name for this was "circumgender" but the trans community didn't support that.

[SilenceRadio]

50 minutes ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

Thats interesting, I dont remember where but once I read somewhere about a cisgender woman who wanted to be a transgender woman, as in of a woman of the male sex, I guess the name for this was "circumgender" but the trans community didn't support that.

Makes sense as to why they didn't.

[Star Crossed Loner]

14 minutes ago, SilenceRadio said:

Makes sense as to why they didn't.

Well, they only support alpha cave men super straight transgender men and 50s housewife Barbie super straight transgender women.

[SilenceRadio]

19 hours ago, Star Crossed Loner said:

Well, they only support alpha cave men super straight transgender men and 50s housewife Barbie super straight transgender women.

That's unrelated to that. It's simply because an AFAB person can't be a trans woman, and the idea in itself seems to border on transmisia to me. Moreover, if the original idea was that she would've still been a woman had she been an AMAB person, then congratulations, that's what being cis is all about (mostly).

[Possum.Lover]

28 minutes ago, SilenceRadio said:

That's unrelated to that. It's simply because an AFAB person can't be a trans woman, and the idea in itself seems to border on transmisia to me. Moreover, if the original idea was that she would've still been a woman had she been an AMAB person, then congratulations, that's what being cis is all about (mostly).

To be fair, one can be AFAB and PARTIALLY female such as demigirl, bigender and so on and so forth. Which makes them trans as they don’t fully identify with a binary. However really it’s up to the person if they wish to use the label trans. /nm /gen

[SilenceRadio]

24 minutes ago, Possum.Lover said:

To be fair, one can be AFAB and PARTIALLY female such as demigirl, bigender and so on and so forth. Which makes them trans as they don’t fully identify with a binary. However really it’s up to the person if they wish to use the label trans. /nm /gen

Sure, but it does not make them a "trans woman" nevertheless.

[Possum.Lover]

Just now, SilenceRadio said:

Sure, but it does not make them a "trans woman" nevertheless.

Well true, I was just noting transfeminine people can be AFAB it just really depends on the situation /g