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Rethinking some of the way I teach


Mark from the OCD board

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Mark from the OCD board

Hello.

I hope I don't come off sounding too gung ho or obsessed (as is often the case with us OCD folks).

I just wanted to post that learning about asexuality has made me rethink a lot of things...

One of the first men I ever fell for cried after we fooled around for the first time. They weren't tears of joy, either. I did not understand what was going on, and I thought he was concerned about his performance--which I assured him was fine. (I think I also said something stupid like "Hey, we both wanted it, so what's the problem?" I was really young and that was 1990...)

We only had sex one time after that, and then he said that he just was not ready for sex. I was disappointed (as I wanted him sexually), but I agreed. We remained friends (and nothing more) for about two years after that and then lost touch.

I wonder if he was asexual.

He had other issues, and I know he had been treated for severe depression. If he was a homo-romantic asexual (sorry if I screwed up the term, as I don't have them all "down" yet) unaware of his identity, maybe that is why he was depressed.

All the more reason for me (and all of humanity) to understand asexuality better. No one should be confused, ashamed, and depressed for no reason. (I should know--considering how long it took me to accept being gay.)

A week ago, I would have argued until I was blue in the face that Morrissey was gay or bi, end of story. Now, having looked at the various Morrissey threads here, I think there is a strong possibility that he is asexual.

Anyway... My reason for posting... Although I have been teaching in a university since 1994, I have just begun to rethink some of what I teach. I do not want to make my classroom uncomfortable for asexuals just as I do not want to make it uncomfortable for women, various racial and enthic identities, and various sexual orientations.

Teach something with sexual overtones and everyone pays attention. Or so I thought... Hmmm....

On Thursday I was teaching some of the love poetry of Catullus (an ancient Roman) to a high advanced English as a Second Language class (people who are close to native speakers). One of my aims was to show how the poems are not only about Catullus and Lesbia but are also about all of humanity. I usually assume that everyone understands the sexual metaphors and talk about them as if they are common experience in everyone's fantasy (for virgins) or practice. This time, however, I asked if people found the images romantic or sexual. Or both. Or neither. A much better discussion than I had expected ensued.

Wow! My being here might even make me a better teacher. :)

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Awesome that you're learning stuff from here! Congratulations. *hands you cake* And yes, you did use the term "homo-romantic" correctly.

I usually assume that everyone understands the sexual metaphors and talk about them as if they are common experience in everyone's fantasy (for virgins) or practice. This time, however, I asked if people found the images romantic or sexual. Or both. Or neither. A much better discussion than I had expected ensued.

Wow! My being here might even make me a better teacher. :)

This is awesome too.

One of the things that has occurred to me after a fairly long time on these boards (though not as long as many of the regulars here) is that, given the huge diversity in asexuals, there must be equally huge diversity in sexuals... in other words, even if everyone was sexual in your class I wouldn't be surprised if not all of them found romance and sexuality in the same metaphors. (Though, of course, the experience of asexuals would be even further removed from sexual poetry.)

Can't say for sure, though, because I've never read anything by Catullus - but kudos to you for sparking interesting-sounding discussion anyway!

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TheOtherDibbler

:D

*claps*

AVEN is such a great place for learning more about people (and ourselves), nice to see you adapting what you've discovered here into your daily life. :cake:

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What a great story, Mark. The idea that there is a "secret" asexual community out there is an eye-opener. And Hallu:

One of the things that has occurred to me after a fairly long time on these boards (though not as long as many of the regulars here) is that, given the huge diversity in asexuals, there must be equally huge diversity in sexuals... in other words, even if everyone was sexual in your class I wouldn't be surprised if not all of them found romance and sexuality in the same metaphors.

That's a good observation, and true. As an artist using symbols in my work (very often sexually charged), I find people's reactions can vary a lot. To some people the imagery isn't charged at all, to others it's charged in a positive way, to others in a negative way.

-Chiaroscuro

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Mark from the OCD board
The idea that there is a "secret" asexual community out there is an eye-opener.

I was actually thinking about people who might not yet know what asexuality was and might not yet understand themselves. For this reason, I will never again imply that everyone has sexual desire or that being sexual is a primal urge "everyone" experiences. There is not much else I can do, but if my changing the way I word things in the classroom means someone will not go home feeling badly, it's something.

I have no doubt, however, of the existence of "secret" asexual communities (based on my knowledge of secret gay communities), as some asexuals would undoubtedly understand their identity but keep it hidden in fear, else they be isolated or accused of being gay or mentally ill.

About secret gay communities (so you will understand what I am talking about)... They usually exist in places or at times where a large number of gay people deny what they are or have no idea what they are; those lucky ones who do know and accept it band together. (This is probably the pattern of asexuality today.) Some secret gay groups exist for support and socialization; others may exist for finding sexual partners.

Most importantly, in places like Iran and Iraq, where gays can be executed for merely being gay, underground gay communities are a matter of survival. In Iraq, for example, there is a gay underground that smuggles gay men out of the country and over the border into places like Syria and Jordan. Those countries are hardly paradises for gays, but they won't be killed there.

In Egypt just a few months ago, police raided a private gay party aboard a boat and subjected men to anal exams to determine if they had had anal sex. Most people attending were professors, artists, professionals... Their names were in the papers and open to public ridicule the next day. Sound like 1950s America? And despite this, Cairo is known as one of the gayest Arab cities, second only, perhaps, to Beirut. As one gay friend put it, "If the gays moved out of Cairo, half the city would be depopulated."

One good thing... Despite incredible homophobia in Egypt, a number of influential intellectuals there called the raid barbaric. There is an open LGBT movement in Lebanon, and in other Arab countries some clerics are looking at the Qu'ran ('Koran') to show that it is not anti-gay.

And, of course, other clerics find the Qu'ran and Islam opposed to homosexuality. It's the same as the debates going on in Judaism and Christianity.

Oddly enough, in Iran homosexuality is forbidden but sex change operations are all right. Some gay men who had no desire to become women have had these operations in order to avoid the death penalty.

Cellphones (to warn other gays) and the Internet (for unbiased information--but only if you can read European languages) are survival technology.

In places like this, some asexuals might get into sexual relationships as a matter of survival in order not to be accused of anything. Of course, in some countries, all sex outside marriage is forbidden and carries strict punishments... So many asexuals would probably get married... --SIGH--

And a site like this could help so many people in so many countries even though you will never know who they are.

--SIGH-- And I'm a proud Arab-American. --SIGH-- Proud because not all my people are like that.

It's a strange world we live in, one where we expect everyone to conform to some state of "normal" that actually describes no one at all.

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Oddly enough, in Iran homosexuality is forbidden but sex change operations are all right. Some gay men who had no desire to become women have had these operations in order to avoid the death penalty.

But I bet they wouldn't approve of female-to-males sex changes right?

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Mark from the OCD board
But I bet they wouldn't approve of female-to-males sex changes right?

Iran is a very, very strange place, oneofthesun. I would have thought the same thing.

However, woman-to-man and man-to-woman changes are both allowed--and even endorsed by much of the clergy!

I did not mean to impy that sex changes occurred only to avoid the death penalty for homosexuality. Instead, most are by choice in Iran (even if out of the financial range of many and sometimes hard to get permission for). Who wudda thunk, huh?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nati...angender30.html

There was even an international transgender conference in Tehran:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSs...yam/Maryam.html

Before we think too highly of the Iranian government (which, I admit, is refreshingly open-minded on transgender issues)...

In December 2006, Tehran was also the site of a conference that claimed the Holocaust did not happen, and the guests included David Duke (the former Louisiana Republican state representative and former Imperial Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan) and members of the American branch of the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish group Neturei Karta. This group feels that the Holocaust did indeed happen, but they also feel that Israel should not exist since the Messiah has not yet returned. (Many other American Orthodox are angry that Neturei Karta went to Tehran and want nothing to do with them.)

As a Lebanese-American, I sympathize with the plight of impoverished Palestinians and am glad when anyone, Neturei Karta included, remembers the aid and human rights they need. Nevertheless, I condemn all anti-Israeli rhetoric for the same reason I condemn all anti-Palestinan or anti-Arab rhetoric. The Middle East belongs to Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists, and everyone else, not just one group. Fortunately, a lot of people in Israel and the Arab World believe that. Unfortunately, there are fanatics...

Anyway... You can read about this conference on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_conference

David Duke is in the first photo while the members of Neturei Karta are in the second.

Imagine them all together in... Tehran.

We live in a bizarre world.

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Nico-Nico Friendo

I wish the stories we have to read for college English classes had less sexual content. It just seems to be in EVERYTHING, and that gets really annoying for me. I can't relate to it or find it very enjoyable to read. It might not be so bad if it wasn't in practically EVERY story or poem. "Sigh." But that's just how I am about it. Now prefer reading non-fiction to fiction. I don't mind learning about sex in biology, but I don't care to hear about other peoples' (fictional) love lives (for the most part).

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In Egypt just a few months ago, police raided a private gay party aboard a boat and subjected men to anal exams to determine if they had had anal sex.

This sounds very anti-gay - and in fact it is - but similar raids could happen any time in any of the hard-core islamic countries such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, at any "mixed" party, followed by similar examinations. Or imprisonment for a man and a women driving in one car without being married. It's weird interpretations of Islam, and gays being only one group of victims in such countries. Never heard islamic scholars preach against lesbians though - maybe that's because women are under the jurisdiction of the men of the household who, e.g. in Saudi Arabia could punish their females at their discretion.

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That man very well could have been asexual, but just confused and didn't know how to handle the situation without thinking he'd disappoint you. As for the teaching, yes I'd say it would be good to make sure that people of all sexualities feel comfortable while in the class.

Ha, for the Morrissey one... My Mom always tell me "He's gay. He's gay. He's gay." and I always insisted that he wasn't. Truthfully, I don't think he's gay. He's a bit of gender bender, and I think that he quite possibly is Pansexual-Asexual, like I am. Oh, just one of the reasons I think that me and him could have a relationship if only I were born in 1959 in Stretford. I honestly think we would get along well if I only could meet him. One of the reasons I'm absolutely head over heels for him... But I'll try to stick to the subject here.

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Mark from the OCD board

@ oneofthesun: I know... That's one I'll never figure out.

@ Lunamoth: That's a very interesting post, and one that really makes me think. I can certainly relate, as I used to feel that everything was about heterosexual sex and did not often relate to my experiences as a gay male. I can understand the asexual perspective now that I have read a large number of threads on this board.

A few years ago a young woman had to transfer out of a colleague's class because the sexual content in the readings was too much for her; she had spent her entire life in yeshivahs (religious Jewish schools) and was in college, let alone a public institution in which not everyone was an Orthodox Jew following Talmudic law, for the first time.

For the record, I do teach some material with sexual content, but the bulk of my selections has never contained any. There's so much to choose from that it's hard to imagine anyone's choosing sex only (unless that is the theme of the class). If you really like to read and want to take some classes for pleasure, why not take a course in Victorian literature? Victorian novels are known for their lack of sexuality. (I have a bias here, as I adore the novels of Wilkie Collins, particularly The Law and the Lady [the first novel with a female detective as the main character--and well ahead of its time], The Woman in White, and No Name. I could never get into The Moonstone, however.)

@ MaraKarina: It's really sad, but in Iran, where gay men can be executed, lesbians are 'merely' given 100 lashes. After the fourth offense (having been lashed 300 times on 3 occasions and having somehow survived), they, too can be executed. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Iran

This does not mean the penalty is always enforced, as there are both open-minded and close-minded people in Iran just as there are in Arab countries. (My relatives can be included on both sides. My half uncle is bisexual and lives with a male lover in an Arab country that carries strict penalties for homosexuality, but they are very discreet.)

@ Mar Zimmer: Please don't worry about going off topic with me. I am notorious on my main board for being off topic. :)

If my friend was asexual, I only wish he had known--and that I had as well. If I had known (and understood asexuality), I never would have assumed that sex was O.K. with him. Even after all these years, I miss him.

Ironically enough, he is the one who introduced me to Morrissey's music and the one who first told me that Morrissey was gay. In fact, I think of him whenever I hear Morrissey, as he was ALWAYS (and I do mean always) listening to it and internalizing the lyrics. The ironic thing is that one of the few Morrissey songs he disliked is my favorite piece of Morrissey's music: "There is a Light That Never Goes Out." He saw it as a song about hopelessness whereas I saw it as a song about hope. (To me, "...to die by your side is such a very good way to die" is just a bit of morbid but lovely Byronic romanticism.)

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Can't say for sure, though, because I've never read anything by Catullus - but kudos to you for sparking interesting-sounding discussion anyway!

I have read several of his poems for AP Latin. I like the ones I've read, although I couldn't really relate to a lot of them (although I think we avoid some of the more sexual ones since it's a class in high school).

I don't mind learning about stuff that's related to sex, as long as no one acts like I should relate to it (then I'm uncomfortable). As long as I can focus on learning about it as someone from the outside (which I am), then I can sort of say, "Ok, so that has something to do with what sexuals feel." But, like in my psychology class, when the teacher says that sex is a "need" and acts like everyone in the class can relate to it and wants it, it becomes annoying and something that I would have liked to learn about out of curiousity about other people instead makes me feel alienated and not want to listen to what he's saying.

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Mark from the OCD board

Can't say for sure, though, because I've never read anything by Catullus - but kudos to you for sparking interesting-sounding discussion anyway!

I have read several of his poems for AP Latin. I like the ones I've read, although I couldn't really relate to a lot of them (although I think we avoid some of the more sexual ones since it's a class in high school).

I don't mind learning about stuff that's related to sex, as long as no one acts like I should relate to it (then I'm uncomfortable). As long as I can focus on learning about it as someone from the outside (which I am), then I can sort of say, "Ok, so that has something to do with what sexuals feel." But, like in my psychology class, when the teacher says that sex is a "need" and acts like everyone in the class can relate to it and wants it, it becomes annoying and something that I would have liked to learn about out of curiousity about other people instead makes me feel alienated and not want to listen to what he's saying.

I love your screen name, OperaGhost! Here's a tip... The original Toronto cast recording of Phantom of the Opera is, in my opinion, much better than the original New York cast recording--the one most people know. And mind you, I'm an American and a New Yorker...

Wow! I'm really learning a lot here. Thank you very, very much for posting about your psychology class! A few years ago on another message board, someone who was uncomortable with gay people was expressing her reservations, and we had a very civil conversation in print. I had said that I could not live my life without expressing my sexuality, as it was a human need. She had then said that sexuality was not a human need at all. I responded that I disagreed with her on that one, but we did not continue that line of thought since we had more productive things to say. Now that I know about asexuality, I would have said that it was a human need for many, and that it was certainly a primal need for me.

As for Catullus... The sex is not obvious; it's a matter of reading into what he says. Catullus was bisexual and also spoke about taking pleasure from young men, for example. He was young himself, as he died after being poisoned by an unknown enemy--unknown to us but perhaps not to him--at age 30. Lesbia, the woman he loved above all others, was married to another man, and theirs was an adulterous relationship. It is, I grant you, possible to look at the poems about their relationship (the ones I teach) as romance without sex. Certainly, the medieval ideal of courtly romance more than a thousand years later involved a young man pining for a woman who was married to another and thus sexually unavailable to him. Nevertheless, he would dedicate his life to her. Similar dedication to the Virgin Mary--note the word "virgin"--was also a high medieval ideal.

But, as I told my class only half an hour ago, poetry is highly personal, and you can interpret it in a way that is completely different from what the poet had in mind. No one has the right to tell you that you cannot interpret it your way. (I certainly had enough teachers telling me that I was "wrong" to look at poems my way when I was in elementary school and high school.)

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Can't say for sure, though, because I've never read anything by Catullus - but kudos to you for sparking interesting-sounding discussion anyway!

I have read several of his poems for AP Latin. I like the ones I've read, although I couldn't really relate to a lot of them (although I think we avoid some of the more sexual ones since it's a class in high school).

I don't mind learning about stuff that's related to sex, as long as no one acts like I should relate to it (then I'm uncomfortable). As long as I can focus on learning about it as someone from the outside (which I am), then I can sort of say, "Ok, so that has something to do with what sexuals feel." But, like in my psychology class, when the teacher says that sex is a "need" and acts like everyone in the class can relate to it and wants it, it becomes annoying and something that I would have liked to learn about out of curiousity about other people instead makes me feel alienated and not want to listen to what he's saying.

I love your screen name, OperaGhost! Here's a tip... The original Toronto cast recording of Phantom of the Opera is, in my opinion, much better than the original New York cast recording--the one most people know. And mind you, I'm an American and a New Yorker...

Wow! I'm really learning a lot here. Thank you very, very much for posting about your psychology class! A few years ago on another message board, someone who was uncomortable with gay people was expressing her reservations, and we had a very civil conversation in print. I had said that I could not live my life without expressing my sexuality, as it was a human need. She had then said that sexuality was not a human need at all. I responded that I disagreed with her on that one, but we did not continue that line of thought since we had more productive things to say. Now that I know about asexuality, I would have said that it was a human need for many, and that it was certainly a primal need for me.

As for Catullus... The sex is not obvious; it's a matter of reading into what he says. Catullus was bisexual and also spoke about taking pleasure from young men, for example. He was young himself, as he died after being poisoned by an unknown enemy--unknown to us but perhaps not to him--at age 30. Lesbia, the woman he loved above all others, was married to another man, and theirs was an adulterous relationship. It is, I grant you, possible to look at the poems about their relationship (the ones I teach) as romance without sex. Certainly, the medieval ideal of courtly romance more than a thousand years later involved a young man pining for a woman who was married to another and thus sexually unavailable to him. Nevertheless, he would dedicate his life to her. Similar dedication to the Virgin Mary--note the word "virgin"--was also a high medieval ideal.

But, as I told my class only half an hour ago, poetry is highly personal, and you can interpret it in a way that is completely different from what the poet had in mind. No one has the right to tell you that you cannot interpret it your way. (I certainly had enough teachers telling me that I was "wrong" to look at poems my way when I was in elementary school and high school.)

Thanks, I'll have to check that out when I get a chance. :D

I didn't realize that Catullus was bisexual. I knew that he died of poison at age 30, though.

Ok. :D

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  • 1 month later...

I've read most of Catullus' poems, since I took Latin in high school. I have to say that I've always sympathized with the poor guy. I love the lyricism of his most romantic pieces (although they were greatly inspired by Sappho... still I thought it great that he took someone like her as a model, shows he understood the universality of love~)... But I have to say I enjoyed reading some of the really vulgar ones, even if I'm normally sex-repulsed... the parodic way he portrayed sex is pretty fun.

Apart from that, I think that despite the underlying sexual themes, even asexuals can relate to his poetry... Pieces like "odi et amo" and "amare et bene velle" (ò_ò I don't remember the exact titles/incipit, but that's how my book called them) managed to grasp the pains and joys (but especially pains) of love in a universal way.

(Nor is romance the only theme... There are some great compositions dedicated to his brother and friends too.)

Yeah, sorry, I had to rant... But I like Catullus :oops:

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Mark from the OCD board

Thanks, Kalavinka.

A few of my students really liked "I hate and I love" as well, and we had quite a discussion on it.

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Thanks, Kalavinka.

A few of my students really liked "I hate and I love" as well, and we had quite a discussion on it.

I think we're going to read that one next class (tomorrow).

I took the National Latin Exam last Thursday, and hopefully I did well enough on it.

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I was actually thinking about people who might not yet know what asexuality was and might not yet understand themselves. For this reason, I will never again imply that everyone has sexual desire or that being sexual is a primal urge "everyone" experiences. There is not much else I can do, but if my changing the way I word things in the classroom means someone will not go home feeling badly, it's something.....

Interesting point you bring up there. As a kid growing up not knowing where you are in life you tend to feel left out when sexual innuendos go above you. Made worse by the fact that you feel left out even more when the jokes that everyone else joins in with you don't know how to.

and then if you join in and get it wrong you look like a bigger prat then normal :roll:

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