Song of Solomon

[notsure123]

If you sit down and read the Song of Solomon in the Bible it teaches that physical beauty and sexuality in marriage should not be despised.

This is one of the most romantic books I have ever read. One of the quotes: I am my beloveds and his desire is toward me. ( Desire- a strong wish, longing, craving a seual appetite)

Solomon Ch: 3 By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth.

Also a good read 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 I will shorten it a bit.

2)To avoid fornication (concensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married) get married. 3) Let him render to her and her to him 4) He has not power over his body she does, she does not have power over her body he does 5) Defraud (cheat or deprive) ye not one the other.

Well this is what I know to be right so If you are or you think you are Asexual be a good friend not a partner.

Hopeless 8)

[Hallucigenia]

I'm not sure who this is directed towards.

Few people on AVEN "despise" sexuality in marriage; I know it can be a beautiful thing, it's just not something that asexuals happen to have any desire for. And many asexuals feel strong desires and cravings towards their partners - as well as appreciation for their physical beauty. It just doesn't have to be coupled with the wish to bump uglies.

A lot of asexuals who have fallen in love (and perhaps gotten married without really understanding their condition) struggle really hard with this stuff, and it's not really fair to just dismiss them with a "Well, the Bible says that romance, marriage, and sex have to go together, case closed" - especially when so many asexuals don't believe in the Bible in the first place!

[M51]

He has not power over his body she does, she does not have power over her body he does

Though both atheists my ex husband always used to say things similar to this. So one day I said, well, if your body belongs to me I demand that it stop sexually tormenting me. Since your body belings to me I command your penis never to enter my body again. He said it didn't work that way. I only got to rule his body if I ruled it in such a way that we had sex all the time.

I and most asexuals do not think sex should be despised. We just don't want it for ourselves.

The Bible also says it is best to remain celibate, and that passion should be controlled. Sex within marriage is a last resort for those who cannot control their sexual desires. There was a thread somewhere with several Biblical references of this type but I can't find it...

Although I understand your frustration it is just not that easy to tell asexuals not to get into romantic relationships with sexuals. We are so outnumbered and hard to identify that by telling us that you are saying that to spare a sexual from a sexually celibate life we must accept for ourselves an emotionally celibate life. You are telling us that we must resign ourselves to being alone for the rest of our lives to spare you frustrations. That is a tall order.

I personally will continue to seek out intimate relationships with sexuals and asexuals (if I can find one), until I find one that is right. Of course, I will be up front with the sexuals involved, but I will not torture myself emotionally and refuse companionship and partnership.

[notsure123]

Message to M51; You have as much anger in you as I do in me. You are willing to put a S through hell so that you can have a intimate AS relationship. This is so wrong. I think that Aven intended for this sight to help AS meet and then maybe there will not be as much therapy going on with us S.

If One is straight and one is Gay and the gay one wants to try and be straight is it fare to the S one if they are not told. NO

We have the power to choose and the other person has the same right if they know the whole truth.

Sorry that I don't agree....

[mathlady]

I am a sexual married to a possibly assexual man. We are both Christians, but I find what you are saying to be offensive. I do not own my dh's body or have the right to selfish take what I want from him. I think of his body as mine to treat as I would want mine to be treated and to respect, protect and cherish. If he does not want sex, then the loving thing would be to respect that and not to be selfish.

I do find it critical for both people to make compromises that will be satisfying or acceptable to both people. My dh and I are currently in the process of doing that. For example, my dh said last night when we were talking about Valentine's Day that maybe we could save the sex for another day that week, and then it would be like 2 celebrations. Does he think of sex as a celebration? No, but he knows I do. If I expected and demanded sex from him, it would deprive him of enjoying the other time together sharing love and appreciation. I think this is a great compromise, especially since I had not even thought of sex that day, and I get to enjoy 2 days instead of 1.

I do believe sex is a part of marriage. How important it is, I don't know, and I'm trying to figure that out. However, sex is suppose to be about sharing, intimacy, and love between 2 people, not something that is forced. However, I think love, respect, friendship, and trust are probably the most critical components of marriage.

If you are in a relationship with an asexual communication is so important. You sound like you are really angry, and I encourage you to explore here and find information to begin healing or get needed support. I have found AVEN to be a great support and sounding board for my questions.

[mathlady]

Message to M51; You have as much anger in you as I do in me. You are willing to put a S through hell so that you can have a intimate AS relationship. This is so wrong. I think that Aven intended for this sight to help AS meet and then maybe there will not be as much therapy going on with us S.

If One is straight and one is Gay and the gay one wants to try and be straight is it fare to the S one if they are not told. NO

We have the power to choose and the other person has the same right if they know the whole truth.

Sorry that I don't agree....

I see no problem with M51 or any other assexual pursuing relationships with sexuals as long as they are honest with them. Why should someone else's relationships matter to me? There are sexuals that have low libidos that might find an assexual partner better than a sexual one. I am sorry that you are angry but taking it out on other assexuals is not going to help you.

Are you currently in a relationship with an assexual? Do you love and respect them, even sexually? What do you do to fulfill their needs? Do you think they are just as angry at you as you are them?

[Mark from the OCD board]

If One is straight and one is Gay and the gay one wants to try and be straight....

Um... On what planet?

Seriously... I know I should not butt in, but perhaps I can stop this thread from getting nasty.

In many branches of Christianity, the Bible is taken literary--and it is seen as infallible. I, for example, know that evolution is science fact, but many conservative Christians know that it is science fiction since it contradicts the Bible's account of Creation and timetables. Other Christians, however, have no problem believing in both evolution and God/the Bible.

My sister, the head Sunday School teacher in her church, believes in evolution, for example.

I know that homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality, and anything else is biological wiring and part of human identity. Christians have many different views on this, and each person and sect believes that God has given him/her/it the right answer. Some accept all variations of sexual orientation as part of God's plan. There are heterosexual Christians who are O.K. with homosexuality, for example, and also many gay Christians. There are also many Christians who condemn gays and consign them to hell simply for being gay. Other say it is O.K. to be gay as long as one does not commit "gay acts" (sex). In other words, celibate gays will go to Heaven. I assume gay asexuals will as well.

But... On Wikipedia, I read that there are Christians who are even opposed to asexuality. "...some conservative Christians believe that naturally occurring asexuality, like naturally occurring homosexuality, is an impossibility as it was not designed by God and then subsequently instilled in Adam and Eve." It will take me a long time to digest that one... On the other hand, I am sure that many Christians would have absolutely no problem with asexuality and would also call it part of God's plan.

My sister teachers her students that God created homsexuals for a reason only he knows, and that he does not expect them to be who and what they are not. I am sure she would say the same about asexuality.

The person who started this thread has his or her reality; I have mine. A debate beween us is pointless unless one of us is willing to reconsider their opinion--and I know I am not. I've been Fundamentalist and I've been forced to "be" heterosexual on threat of hellfire, and that is one road I will never take again. In addition, despite all the work I do in the name of (GASP!) heterosexuals with OCD on the OCD board, I have been attacked by Christians simply for being gay even there. So much for a "safe" place for me.

I have also been befriended and accepted by many Christians there, Christians who know that, in addition to being gay, I am also an atheist.

For whatever reason, the person who started this thread needs to be here and needs to question--and perhaps the questions he or she asks will be uncomfortable for a lot of people. He or she may have only known Christianity and may only be able to speak here through that frame of reference.

Only one week ago, I would not have been able to speak through an asexual frame of reference, for at that time I thought asexual and celibate synonymous. Look at how much I have learned by being here. That is what I hope for the person who started this message.

[Sam B.I.]

By saying that wanting a relationship between a S and an AS is unfair on the S, you are saying that the S does not have the maturity to decide for him-/her-self whether or not he/she is up to it.

THis is only an opinion.

[Chiaroscuro]

Only one week ago, I would not have been able to speak through an asexual frame of reference, for at that time I thought asexual and celibate synonymous. Look at how much I have learned by being here. That is what I hope for the person who started this message.

Well said, Mark. I don't think there's much more to say on this topic. I'm against telling people what they should be, whether that comes from the bible, racial pride, tradition or whatever.

Notsure, you're hurting and angry. I understand that. And I understand what you're saying about the unfairness of your husband demanding that you remain faithful to your marriage vows, while he ignores his (the "render unto her" part of them). It is unfair. But it comes from ignorance (like Mark said, before he came here, he had no idea asexuality existed as an orientation). The unfortunate fact is that you, and I, and many others find ourselves in mixed marriages with very confused partners. What we do about that is up to each of us individually, but there is no one right way forward. And there's no one right way for all of us to "be".

*hugs*

-Chiaroscuro

[MaraKarina]

mathlady,

Whilst married to an asexual, you are in the previleged situation that you can discuss the topic with your partner, something that is not possible for all sexuals in relation with asexuals because their partners shut down completely or do their utmost to avoid such a conversation. Also, you are at the beginning of your marriage. (If I look at my sex life with my husband, it was great and frequent sex during the first year, then every few weeks, every few months, 1 - 2 per year, and since almost 9 years zero.)

Also you are privileged that your husband believes sex is part of a marriage; others had their partners suggest, why, I don't want or need it, and don't expect that to change ever, go ahead and just have sex with someone else, otherwise everything's great, isn't it.

Which is heavy stuff if you love your husband and being a christian trying to live by the bible doesn't make that any easier. Though the bible does not say that you must have sex so and so often, it clearly says that marriage is the (only!) proper frame for sexlife. And from the NT passage quoted above where Paul says a couple should not separate so long that this may lead one into temptation or sin, it clearly follows that one should not withhold sex from husband/wife for other reasons for such a long time that sin would be the result. In fact, completely withholding sex - unless it is a mutual agreement - would be breaking the marriage wows as much as having sex with another person would.

Obviously if you love your partner you will not "claim" his/her body, but you will give yours to your spouse and you will see that his/her needs are met to the best of your abilities or simply because you love the other person. And besides provision and care for each other and raising ones children, sex is a main component of marriage, one that you cannot one-sidedly void.

If you look into other parts of the bible for other problems, you will see that whereever a person is deprived of a "right", it will be made up for, it's never said that it is ok because of such or such. The bible is usually very generous only where it concerns making up for right withheld.

Take for example Tamar whose right it was in those days to be given to the third son so that she could have a child. After her husband had died, the second son already didn't do her justice in letting his semon drop on the floor, and then her father in law did not give her to his third son when he was old enough, although he had promised her that. Tamar comes up with a rather extraordinary solution through which she eventually finds justice.

The bible clearly says you must not get married, but if you do you must treat your husband/wife fairly. I read the bible with the understanding that you shouldn't even get married unless both agree to have a relationship that includes sex as that is a vital element making two people a couple rather than friends or else. Though nobody would be hurt if two people who agree to live without any or very little sex would get married.

On the commandment "Though shalt not commit adultery" e.g. the Westminster Catemism says (rough translation): "The sins prohibited by the seventh commandment are, apart from neglect of the required duties, adultery, prostitution, rape, incest, sodomy, and all unnatural desires, all unpure thoughts, ..., hindrance of rightful and allowing unrightful marriages, ...,

Though duties sure included provision, keeping a proper household, but with all the ban on sex outside of marriage sex is sure one of these duties, biblically speaking.

[MaraKarina]

By saying that wanting a relationship between a S and an AS is unfair on the S, you are saying that the S does not have the maturity to decide for him-/her-self whether or not he/she is up to it.

THis is only an opinion.

The problem is - the sexual usually doesn't have a say in it until after they are married. It would be great if things were on the table up front and both could decide. But either the asexual finds out him/herself later only or knows but tries to behave differently, or else - often the sexual suspects nothing wrong and, over time, finds out.

Then it's not just saying whether s/hes up to it or not. Usually people to love their asexual spouse and would find it absolutely nightmarish to separate (the others don't have a long-term problem, they just quit!). Then consider children, religious views, and all the rest.

[MaraKarina]

Chiaruscuro,

I understand notsure pretty well because I've been there before. If you take the bible and prayer as your guideline for your life, life with an asexual puts you more in a trap than it already does without. Because you havn't got a choice, sex is within marriage only, and you're not supposed to get a divorce. And your partner doesn't want sex. Not much or nothing at all. S/he knows your dilemma yet appears not to care. You're thrown right down into a very deep, narrow tunnel with no rope inside.

You will not convince a bible-abiding christian (Mark from the OCD board: the bible's stand on homosexuality is among those parts I haven't yet made sense of, I read them and take them as they are but wouldn't dare blame anyone for being homosexual or not want to be friends with a homosexual or dare tell them how to live) to simply ignore the passage that we shouldn't seek divorce because we are in a trap.

That I can allow myself now to be open to different solutions did take its way through understanding the biblical passages on marriage (to my present understanding that is, I believe we should constantly question our bible understanding and correct our views as we expand our understanding), to understand that sex is part of it and that there has been a breach to the biblical form of marriage where sex is missing for an extended period because of a decision or refusal (not because of health reasons, so that can be tricky especially as that includes psychological reasons ...), and you cannot break a broken marriage, but you can look for solutions which are as close as is possible to general biblical unterstanding. And which includes dealing with the asexual partner in love and with respect.

[Mark from the OCD board]

Just wanted to point out to anyone gay/lesbian/bisexual/trans reading this thread (whether asexual or sexual)...

Not all Christians condemn us.

There are many good tracts written by Christians that are queer-affirming and friendly. Here are my favorite two--not written by gays like me, mind you, but by married heterosexual ministers. And no, not young ministers just out of seminary, either. Both are senior citizens.

This one is beyond long, but parts of it made me cry. Click on the link, then click on "Read the Letter." It's also worth nothing that Bruce (who answers e-mail) is a BAPTIST (!!!) minister.

http://godmademegay.com/

Here's a short one on gay marriage, this time by a Presbyterian:

http://www.godweb.org/gaymarriage.htm

[scorpion]

Message to M51; You have as much anger in you as I do in me. You are willing to put a S through hell so that you can have a intimate AS relationship. This is so wrong. I think that Aven intended for this sight to help AS meet and then maybe there will not be as much therapy going on with us S.

If One is straight and one is Gay and the gay one wants to try and be straight is it fare to the S one if they are not told. NO

We have the power to choose and the other person has the same right if they know the whole truth.

Sorry that I don't agree....

I beg to differ here...M51 is NOT angry at all. She is stating her opinion. Since asexuality is an orientation, it makes someonw who and what they are, but it does NOT control their behavior. Many of us have struggled throughout our lives with this concept simply b/c the world is mostly sexual. We have been made to feel as though we are "broken" or "damaged" in some way b/c we don't "get it". If one is gay, they CAN have sex with someone of the opposite however they will not enjoy it and do not desire it. Is it right? IMO...no. Both will suffer. Again, many people have struggled with their own sexuality, trying to accept who they are.

I identify as an asexual. Have been married for around 18 years too. My husband was told from the very beginning that sex was not even a consideration on my list so if it was important to him he may as well look elsewhere. HE thought I was broken and he could "fix" me. Wrong!! Just b/c a person is asexual should mean they should be totally void of any emotional happiness...

Scorpion

[maufry]

Message to M51; You have as much anger in you as I do in me. You are willing to put a S through hell so that you can have a intimate AS relationship. This is so wrong. I think that Aven intended for this sight to help AS meet and then maybe there will not be as much therapy going on with us S.

If One is straight and one is Gay and the gay one wants to try and be straight is it fare to the S one if they are not told. NO

We have the power to choose and the other person has the same right if they know the whole truth.

Sorry that I don't agree....

You seem to have missed the part where M51 said, "Of course, I will be up front with the sexuals involved". She quite clearly stated that she's not going to lie to anyone in order to fulfill her own emotional needs.

And no, asexuals have no intentions whatsoever to put anyone through hell in order to be with us. Those of us on this site are aware of our asexuality, and I'm pretty sure most of us - if not all - are decent enough people that we don't lie to the people we care about. OF COURSE I will tell any potential partner of mine that I'm asexual and that sex will not be a part of our relationship. It will then be up to him to decide whether or not to continue the relationship. S's have free will too, you know.