Someone from this board was misunderstood on my OCD board

January 27, 2007

Hello.

My name is Mark, and I am a 41-year-old gay male with OCD (obsessive-compulsive disorder). Having gotten over the bulk of my OCD issues with behavior therapy and medication, I talk to a lot of younger people who are just coming to terms with OCD so that I can try to steer them in the right direction.

Recently, someone from this board visited the board on which I post, and I am afraid that some of the posts he received in response were extremely unkind. (Happily, others were far more gracious.) I know little about asexuality and nothing at all about asexuals whose OCD manifests as false fears of becoming sexually active with gay males. I can only say that such fears must feel like the end of the world to the sufferer, just like my false fears about natural disasters and extremist religion used to sap the life from me before my OCD was successfully treated.

The person from this board left the one I post on. I sent him a private message urging him to come back and saying that he was welcome, but he has not returned. One reason I am here is my hope that he will see this post. (I am not using his name or the name of my board since I do not want to embarrass this person if he is not open about his OCD.)

My second reason for posting here is my desire to thank all of you for putting together such an informative, user-friendly site. (The person from your board had posted a link to this site when he felt people on the OCD board could not hear what he was saying.) I have spent the past two hours reading some general information and threads here, and I feel that I am beginning to understand asexuality in a way I did not before. Since I do not feel that my sexual desire for men instead of women means that I am missing out on sex with women, I fully understand what many here have written about not feeling as if they are missing out on anything by being asexual. In addition, I have female friends whom I hug and with whom I hold hands without any sexual overtones or desire. In addition, I have experienced satisfaction from hugging other men (all orientations) and cuddling with gay men with no sex involved or expected. Again, everything I have read here makes sense.

My third and final reason for posting is to show support. While the way many heterosexuals hate gays angers me, the way many gays in turn hate bisexuals and the trans community also angers me. There is probably also great prejudice against asexuals in the gay community. Of course, there are certainly those in my community who would have no prejudice against asexuals at all, starting with my best friend and his lover.

There is not much I can do aside from what I have posted on my board (reprinted below) and talking openly about asexuality in my classroom the way I do other forms of non-mainstream lifestyles. (I teach English as a Second Language in a university.) But that, I hope, is something.

In addition, I have a good friend who is a celibate gay male and thus does not have the easiest time making friends in the gay community. Until I read the posts here, I did not know the difference between celibacy and asexuality--and I doubt that he does. Given his lack of interest even in talking about certain things, he may be asexual. I just don't know. I'll try to think of a tactful way to tell him about this site.

About my post and OCD... If you don't understand the nature of OCD, you'll have to take my word for the bit about all the unrealistic, false fears and behaviors and how logic and reason cannot stop them. They are, after all, a misfiring of the brain.

In a nutshell: If a parent hears that there was a bad car crash in the neighborhood, this on the night when a child has missed curfew, that parent will experience heightened anxiety and racing thoughts about the worst case scenario. When the child returns very late but sage, the parent will be relieved. On the other hand, a person with OCD experiences no relief even when there is evidence that there is no cause for fear. If untreated, the racing thoughts and anxiety can continue for days, months, years... That's where the compulsions come in; they are the misfiring brain's attempt to deal with the obsessions.

Many people with OCD have false fears about sexuality ("HOCD"), as did the person from this board. I have never had that, but as an OCD person I can understand it. It was the people with sexual fears whose OCD "spiked" when they misunderstood the post from the person from this board; that post was a "trigger"--because it was misunderstood.

Here's the post, which opens a new thread. (I do not run the board, but a lot of people send me OCD questions in private messages.) If my lack of experience in talking about asexuality has led me to be insulting or politically incorrect, please accept my apology and tell me what I can do better next time.

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I debated whether or not to post this, as this is an OCD board where people have false fears that feel very, very real about everything from disasters (like me) to homosexuality (like many of you) to germ phobia to cancer developing overnight to...

Given the ruckus over the person who posted that he was an asexual with same-sex attraction and had HOCD/false gay fears, I decided to use his link and look at Aven, the site for asexuals. I already knew what asexuality (lack of sexual desire) was, but I wanted to broaden my understanding in case the person came back or the issue arose again.

I have learned a lot that I did not know about asexuality, and I am posting a few items here because there may be someone here who is asexual; that asexuality may be behind HOCD fear.

Before you read further... Mark's rule: Don't get all OCD about this. I don't want to set off any spikes. I don't want people engaging in OCD checking to see if they are asexual by visiting an asexual site endlessly or posting fearfully on the board the way some with HOCD have done with gay sites. If you really enjoy sex or really want to have it for sheer pleasure, you are not asexual.

And if anyone develops a new form of OCD fears centering around asexuality as a result of reading this post, I will scream so loud that they will hear me in Buenos Aires, Beijing, and Bujumbura. :)

Asexuals can be male or female. (I can only imagine the nonsense an asexual guy goes through in macho culture, or what it must be like to be an aseuxal women in a world where guys feel they have the right to treat women as sex objects, or how it feels to be a gay asexual called a liar by the gay power elite upon confessing no sexual interest.) Asexuals can have a sexual orientation (although not all do) and they may be romantically attracted within that sexual orientation. Romance and closeness are what they seek, but nothing more. That, I believe, is what the gentleman on our board was talking about. He did not desire sex, but his HOCD told him otherwise. (I wonder if even the asexual community understood his OCD issue.)

Some asexuals are married to "sexuals" (a word I learned on the site). While asexuals do not experience sexual desire, they may engage in sex out of love for a partner. Some simply enjoy the notion that they are giving their partner pleasure and do not feel bad that they do not experience the same sexual pleasure. Still, others can be indifferent or even cold to sexual acts. Some have even posted that the wonderful feelings they get from hugging or cuddling are ruined during sex. (Note: I am not talking about bad sex, which happens to everyone. I am also not talking about a romance where the sex used to be hot and no longer is. Further, I am not talking about the fumbling attempts at sex in which some inexperienced people engage their first few times.)

So why do I share this here? Over the past two years, a couple of people have written to me about false gay fears because they had strong romantic feelings for the opposite sex but did not actually want to be sexual. Enter HOCD, and they thought that lack of sexual desire for the opposite sex must mean they are gay. (It doesn't necessarily.) Fortunately, I have always told such people that it is normal to have a low sex drive as opposed to a high one, and that they should not be overly concerned. Unfortunately, I had not thought of suggesting that they might be asexual.

Asexuality is not a disease. Asexuals are not missing out on anything. I, for exampe, hate eggplant (aubergine to British and Irish readers). Many tell me I am missing out on one of the most delicious things in the world and beg me to try eggplant parmigiana, eggplant lasagna, baba ganoush, and so on. I have no desire to try them, as I know how I feel about eggplant. And with all the other pleasurable things in my life, my lack of a taste for eggplant is not that important.

Since the bulk of you are clearly not asexual, use your knowledge of the existence of asexuality as further proof that the sexual world is not as black and white as HOCD paints it. Remember the Vulcan IDIC: Infinite diversity in infinite combination.

The one or two people who may be asexual may want to check out the site--but NOT as OCD checking.

http://www.asexuality.org/home/

January 27, 2007

Hey, Mark, I am not your OCD friend but I wanted to thank you for your interest and support, and for sticking up for my fellow AVENite whoever that may have been.

Are you going to stick around the AVEN community, or was this a one-time thing to help out a friend? I would love to hear more from you.

January 27, 2007

Hey, Mark, I am not your OCD friend but I wanted to thank you for your interest and support, and for sticking up for my fellow AVENite whoever that may have been.
Are you going to stick around the AVEN community, or was this a one-time thing to help out a friend? I would love to hear more from you.

Hey there, M51!

I just read a few more threads, and I am very interested in the topics here. Although I am neither a sex counselor nor an OCD therapist (a fact I make very, very clear to folks on the other board), I am the only openly gay person on an OCD board on which a number of heterosexuals who have obsessive sexual fears, many of them about homosexuality, post. Since the things they ask me are far removed from the field I have actually studied and teach, I try to keep an open mind and learn as many new things as I can.

One of my OCD traits is my getting far too interested in far too many things all at once; for this reason, I have to be careful not to overcommit myself. I'll say this... If this place is as friendly as it seems, I'd be happy to stop by on occasion once this thread runs its course; however--That's a Tuvok 'however', fellow Star Trek fan!--because more than half of my total Internet time is spent on the OCD board and I do need down time on line, it would not be fair to this board or to me if I made a commitment to be here on a regular basis.

I do think I can learn some valuable things here, though. Who knows when I might meet someone who can benefit from what I have read here?

And for the record, since I live my life in the open as a gay Arab-American atheist with OCD who in his youth joined and fully bought into a Christian Fundamentalist cult (How's that for being a multiple minority?)... While I do seek and enjoy sex, I have always enjoyed cuddling or sexual foreplay with release much more. If there were a Kinsey-type scale for asexuality, I'd probably be somewhere in the middle--not asexual but not as sexual as most sexuals.

January 27, 2007

I agree with M51, your posts are very insightful and nicely put. I'm not the person who posted on the other board either but just wanted to say its very good of you to make the extra effort to come here and say what you did. Even if that person doesn't see it, it could help others here who might want to participate in that board for whatever reason and may of felt they weren't welcome based on this previous discussion you mention.

You're very welcome here and its always great to have more open-minded people. But yes don't feel that you have to be a regular. I've gone months without looking in here, as you can see I joined 2 years ago but only have about 100 posts. So no pressure. :D

Anyway I wish you all the best. :)

January 27, 2007

Thanks for posting, Mark!!

I'm glad we have your support (and you have mine, too ;) ) and I appreciate your posts-you seem like a very thoughtful person.

Have some :cake: ! Welcome to the boards and feel free to stick around. You sound like you have an interesting point of view.

January 28, 2007

Thank you Rin and Placebo.

@ Rin: It's almost ironic that you say it's great to have more open-minded people on board. I find myself using the phrase "open-minded" a lot, as I use it in reference to someone who is not anti-gay, or anti-OCD, or anti-atheist, or anti-Arab... According to The New York Times, the four most hated groups in America are Arabs, Muslims, gays, and atheists. I am three out of four--and there are Muslims married to Christians in my extended family. So maybe I am three and a half? Oh, and did I mention that my late godmother was Jewish...? Anti-Semitism is also a pet peeve. Anyway... Growing up as I have, a Native New Yorker hated for so many different reasons for things I cannot change, it is hard for me NOT to be open-minded.

Unfortunately, I started life as a smart ass and really said and did some ridiculous things in my youth. Since I was in the closet and as straight looking and acting then as now, I even participated in tormenting femme gay guys. I never did anything to injure them or put them in danger, but it is still not something I am proud of. :cry: I would not even have tried to understand them or anyone here back then. But... I am hoping I have built up enough good karma since then...

@ Placebo: Thank you for the kind words. But one thing I must be honest about... We OCD folks think too much and analyze everything to death. Despite my being a teacher who always encourages his students to think, I have to remember to tell people on the OCD board to stop thinking! :lol: I, too, need the same kick in the butt once in a while.

@ Everyone: So... Has anyone reading this thread ever dealt with an assexual with any form of OCD, panic disorder, agoraphobia, or anything else in that family of disorders? Is there anything I can tell you about OCD or anything I have mentioned in my posts (even if not related to OCD)?

I saw some interesting threads about Asperger's here. That's in a completely different family, but it can co-occur with OCD. For this reason, it is also an interest of mine.

Take care,

Mark

January 28, 2007

I believe I have OCD. I've never been diagnosed, and it isn't exactly a debilitating form of it, but reading your posts has managed to convince me even more that I have at least some version of it. :D There was a thread awhile ago that I posted where a lot of other aromantic people said they had had mild OCD symptoms. Hey, love and OCD are caused by the same chemical.

January 28, 2007

Hi Mark from the OCD Board. I'm Thylacine. You said, "There is probably also great prejudice against asexuals in the gay community." Can you tell us why this is? Just curious, since it is true there is a lot of prejudice in this world.

Anyway, nice of you to drop by & visit.

January 28, 2007

*gets out the AS3 stamp and :cake: *

Good to have you here!

January 28, 2007

@ thylacine: Good question thylacine, and one hard to answer.

This is my take on it. Some agree with me and others do not.

We gay men tend to be the walking wounded, as we have had to live lies for much of our lives and are often forced to continue living lies. How else to answer the question "So when are you gonna make me a grandma?" "You mean you're over 40 and you still haven't found the right girl? What's the matter with you?" "Don't you think you should get a girl soon so the family won't think we raised a fag?" Many have been thrown out of their religion, out of their parents' homes, out of their friends' circles, out of their jobs... And they are mad as hell.

Keep this in mind as I jump to another topic you need to understand before I return to why gays are prejudiced against others. Human beings are strange animals. You would think that persecuted people would automatically form solidarity with other persecuted people, but one only has to look to Hitler's death camps, where many of the large number of groups behind barbed wires treated gays interned with them as dirt; some were only too happy to see the Nazis kill them. After the war, surviving Jews, gypsies, Catholics, trade unionists, Slavs, clergy who had opposed the Reich, and so forth went home; gays went to German prisons.

How did they know who we were? In the camps we were forced to wear pink triangles the way Jews were forced to wear Stars of David. That's why it is our symbol today.

In essence, the people in the camps were made to feel like slime beneath "superior" Germans. After the war, it was the Germans who were made to feel like slime. Both groups felt better about themselves when they made themselves believe that gays were even lower than they were. I believe all this was more unconscious than conscious.

That, I think, is also why homophobia remains such a problem today. No matter how bad you are or what is happening in this overly stressful world, the repulsive sodomites are worse than you and are going straight to hell...

Back to prejudiced gays... Many in the gay community do the same thing; they find people they think lower than they: bisexuals, the trans community... I have no doubt they would throw in asexuals for good measure. (More on that--and what asexuality may mean to some gays--in a moment.)

Not all gays are like this, however. You'll find many open-minded gays just as you'll find many open-minded heterosexuals. But you'll also find too many pigs, a lot of them in positions of power.

There is also the notion of gays being hyper-sensitive about their sexuality and anything that threatens it. Remember that half of all Americans identify as Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Born Again, or something similar. The religious right would like us to deny who and what we are by forcing ex-gay camps on us to turn us straight and prepare us for heterosexual marriage...or by simply forcing us to be celibate. Even the Catholics go along with the latter. It's O.K. to be gay as long as you never commit gay acts (!). All this is as offensive to us gays as a camp to turn asexuals into heterosexuals who have sex exactly 4.5 times a week would be to you. Asexuality and celibacy may thus give many gays the willies (even though they should not). I admit that, when I first met the celibate friend I spoke of earlier, I was a little weirded out even though I absolutely accepted him from the get go. (A lot of heterosexuals who have accepted me were also weirded out by me in the beginning. It's part of being human.)

Finally, there is the adolescent mentality that governs many aspects of the gay community. We are all conformists to our own brand of non-conformity. Any gay who deviates is "a self-hating gay man" or "a traitor." (I get this thrown at me a lot.) While I am a bleeding heart liberal opposed to the Republican power elite in office, for example, I respect the right of the Log Cabin Republicans (the national gay Republican/Conservative group) not only to exist but also to have equal access to gay funding, gay community centers, and so on. (In the conservative south and southwest, gay conservatives may be a little more common; however, in large cities in other areas of the country it is not at all common._ Other gays agree with me on this issue, but too many deny them meeting space, refuse to date or be friends with a gay Republican, etc. (The same thing sometimes happens in the African American community, where Republicans of color can be treated like pariahs.) In other words, if you're not like us, you're against us.

I am reminded of the old high school adage: "If you're not cool (like us), you're a nerd." Or a geek. Or an outsider who'll never have the friendship of the cool kids.

If you're different, you're scary. (Again, exactly what heterosexual society does to us gays.) If even the notion of bisexuals is so scary to some gay men (The stupid quote: "Bisexuals don't exist; they're just gay men who haven't come out."), I doubt that they would be any more charitable to asexuals.

Again, not everyone in the gay community is like this, as I can personally think of a number of gay people who would welcome asexuals with sincerity and open arms. I can also think of many gay men who find brains sexier than penises. The community is not as bleak as some of my strong words may make it seem, either. I have found love and friendship in the gay community, but only after searching quite hard since sincerity can be a rare commodity.

@ Octarine: Hello. I believe my father has a mild form of OCD, and there is no need to confront him (at age 72!) or recommend treatment. My grandfather, on the other hand, had severe OCD and did a number of odd things. For example, whenever he finished reading a book, he would sit up counting the exact number of words in it and did not feel "right" until he had written this number on the inside cover. I do not mean to imply that everyone with OCD does that, as everyone's symptoms differ. However, OCD symptoms follow a pattern, and what my grandfather did is typical.

People with mild OCD can often treat themselves and do not need professional therapy or medication--even though the thoughts OCD puts in their head are annoying to them and sometimes to others. The best book (in my opinion) for someone with mild OCD is Brain Lock by Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz. He's a behaviorist who tells you what to do step by step. (I stress his being a behaviorist since cognitive behavior therapy is highly effective in managing OCD while psychoanalysis, helpful though it is for others with different psychological issues, is not.)

Of course, I cannot make a diagnosis since I am not qualified to do so--and it is true that a lot of people get occasional worries, stress, anxieties or whatever that resemble OCD but are not OCD. You may or may not have OCD. The important thing is not to jump to any conclusions.

There are a lot of self-tests out there, some helpful and some not (since there are also a lot of quacks out there who want your money). Some of the better self-diagnosis tests floating on the web include the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale (Y-BOCS) and one by Schwartz himself taken from his book.

Of course, this is no substitute for a professional diagnosis. Keep in mind, though, that even professionals can be wrong. People with OCD are sometimes misdiagnosed with ADHD (because we have trouble paying attention), bipolar disorder (because OCD operates in cycles and most people with OCD are also depressed), schizophrenia (because some OCD people develop fears that are positively outlandish), and so on. Sometimes the medication for these other disorders, which they don't have, makes OCD worse.

OCD can co-occur with ADHD or bipolar disorder (more commonly than people think), but it is nothing like either. I assume that it can co-occur with schizophrenia--I'm not sure--but a key difference is that people with OCD recognize the unreasonableness of their compulsions and never lose touch with reality.

Others, like me, get lucky and get the right diagnosis right away or, like some of the younger people on my board, self-analyze and learn on the board how to get the right help.

Some good national organizations with excellent information:

The Obsessive-Compulsive Foundation http://www.ocfoundation.org/

The OCD page on the National Institute of Mental Health's board: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/ocdmenu.cfm

As for aromatic people... Anything is possible with OCD. :) I'm really out of my league with this response, so please don't take my word as gospel. I am only guessing here. Aromatic people and OCD isn't something I've ever heard of on my board or in my reading, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. People especially sensitive to/desirous of love and sensory input may be more sensitive in other areas as well and thus more prone to stress or high emotion. I am discucssing environmental issues here because I believe that OCD is both biological and environmental in nature. In other words, if one is biologically predisposed to it (as I am) but does not encounter the right environmental conditions, one may only be a person who worries a lot (no OCD) and/or has high stress (no OCD). A little bit of the right environmental input could cause a mild form of OCD. Too much of it... Well, then you're like me. :) Before treatment, my OCD was between moderate and severe. Now it is mild, and I intend to keep it that way.

@ jaybird721: Hey there!

Um... AS3 stamp?

January 28, 2007

AS3 means "Asexuals in Support of Supportive Sexuals." It's a good thing. :D

January 28, 2007

Hi Mark and welcome! :cake:

Thanks for all you've written here. It's been really informative and has encouraged me to learn more about OCD in general. My mother has bipolar disorder, and after reading your post, I'm wondering if she also struggles with OCD.

It's great to have you on the boards!

January 28, 2007

Thanks Mark, I'll have to check that out. It can be annoying, especially when your family thinks it's funny. :evil:

The most common response I've heard of from [mean] gays is basically, "Why are you organizing? Why do you care if you're 'asexual'? It's not like anyone's killing or discriminating against you guys, like US!" Sort of a "I'm worse off than you," thing.

But then again, I've heard that from a lot of sexuals who weren't gay, and I know a lot of gays who didn't think that.

January 28, 2007

1. So are you like saying that since gays feel that everyone hates them, they need to hate someone else?

2. Do you think your friend might be asexual?

Anyway... thanx for the info. :)

January 28, 2007

I'm curious about whether you've seen any correlations with the various sexualities and OCD. For instance (I apologize if I say something offensive, I'm not trying to) are there subsets of people that are irrationally afraid of sex in the OCD community, or people that are compulsively sexual as a way of warding of something bad happening? Just curious about how sexuality relates to people with OCD.

January 28, 2007

AS3 means "Asexuals in Support of Supportive Sexuals." It's a good thing. :D

We decided to call it AS3, when we first saw the acronym and it read "ASSS". :roll:

For the record, I can confirm that, yes, there is a great deal of predjudice in the gay community towards asexuals. As Mark said, it isn't as if every homosexual dislikes asexuals; however, they certainly do not "get it" and what they don't "get" they distrust. Just like everyone else. A gay coworker of mine has dealt with my asexuality by telling himself (and more or less everyone around him) that I am "bi, but just not that into sex". And whereas on the one hand this isn't a completely innacurate statement, it certainly gives others the wrong impression.

A couple of years ago, when I was in a romantic (but asexual) relationship with a man, the reactions were even stranger. My boyfriend and I had no right to be together or interact with gay society since we didn't have sex. Of course, some friends accepted us; but many others didn't. (My boyfriend's family, dead set against his homosexuality had a particularly odd reaction: "You shouldn't be gay, but if you are going to be, you should be with someone who will do something with you!" I never really liked his family, to be honest. Many, many mixed messages from that bunch. . . )

I can also say that there are predjudices against asexuality from straight society, too. Being on the forefront of our attempts to get our message on all types of media, I have been approached by people who heard me on the radio, or saw me on television, or read about me in a newspaper article and asked me, "Why would you want to go in front of all of those people and talk about how bad you are in bed?" I also get the all-too-common, "You just haven't been with the right person, yet!"

There will always be people who just don't get it. But that fact makes hearing from someone who does get it (and who expresses himself so eloquently) all the sweeter. Thanks, Mark, for stopping by. And feel free to come back and chat anytine you can.

January 28, 2007

Before I reply to specific people, let me say that I read both "Sticky: To Sexual Partners" and "The Deadly Choice" today, and I was quite moved by all the love in those threads. Anyone who says love cannot exist apart from sex need only read those threads to see otherwise.

As a sexual, I don't doubt that it is difficult to make a mixed marriage work, and I empathize with the sexual partners. As someone who is gay (and thus loves in a way that mainstream society frowns on but that matches my biological wiring), I also empathize with the asexual partners. I wish I could give good advice, but I cannot. All I can say is that you have moved me and are in my thoughts.

I don't know how I would deal with this situation if it ever presented itself, but I now know enough not to react with fear.

(...he says, knowing that he has OCD and has to work on his fear every day...)

...and here I am supposed to be preparing lessons instead of writing on the Internet... If my students only knew about my habitual procrastination...

1. So are you like saying that since gays feel that everyone hates them, they need to hate someone else?
2. Do you think your friend might be asexual?

Anyway... thanx for the info. :)

@ thylacine: Hey there!

1. I am saying that gays are only human--like everyone else. Many gays have an unconscious need to hate others the way many humans from all walks of life have an unconscious need to hate others. And many other people, both gay and non-gay, do not give into this primal urge at all.

It shocks me, for example, when some gays are racist, as we really should know better given our experience. On the other hand, many gays understand that our struggle is linked to the struggles of all minority communities, and, for example, in the days before it was possible to fight for gay liberation, a disproportionate number of white gays supported Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and marched. Of course, they were not out publically out as gays, but many were out to each other.

On the other hand, my first date (ever--back in 1989) was a disaster since my young beau informed me that "all black women should be sterilized" and I hit him. Hard. Romance and a second date were off the table after that. I am not African American, but as a human being I was offended beyond words. That those words came from the lips of a gay person was even more horrifying to me.

There are gay bars and clubs that subtlely discourage patrons of color through the use of certain window displays, type of music played, image, and so on. There are also many gay groups like Men of All Colors Together and many gay individuals who are horrified by racism or anti-trans sentiment or whatever in our community and work to stop it.

Before I go further, let me explain my take on prejudice: I believe that everyone has impuses and thoughts that run contrary to their nature, prejudiced thoughts among them. People who say that they have never had prejudiced thoughts are, in my opinion, either not very self-aware or are lying out of fear. A person who is not prejudiced admits, at least to himself or herself, that the thoughts are there but that he or she will never act on them since he or she disagrees with them. (Note: My views are highly influenced by my having OCD, as the ultimate goal is for the OCD sufferer to acknowledge the thoughts instead of fighting them and then to simply ignore them--which is not easy at all since there is also a physiological response to OCD thoughts...)

So, to answer your question, "...since gays feel that everyone hates them, they need to hate someone else?" I would have to qualify your question by putting "some" or "many" in front of the word "gays" before answering. Not all gays act that way but, I am ashamed to say, too many do.

2. The situation with my friend is very complicated, and I cannot discuss it here since I do want to send him a link and I am sure he would not be happy to see his personal information here. It is possible that he is asexual, but he may also be a sexual who has chosen celibacy because of the details of his life. There is no way I can know for certain.

@ Child of the Light: I am sure that it is a good thing. :) Love your screen name, by the way.

@ fern: It's possible that your mom may be bipolar and also have OCD, but don't jump to any conclusions unless you have first seen a professional. Sometimes a person with bipolar may have some symptoms normally associated with OCD--or vice versa. Depressive or manic swings may involve obsessive thoughts and odd behaviors, and it is very hard to say what is what without professional training.

If anything, both bipolar and OCD are far more common alone than together.

Although bipolar disorder and OCD are in completely different families of illnesses, an odd thing is that a subset of people with OCD have bipolar relatives (myself included). My own profile: My maternal grandmother, my paternal great-uncle, and two of his three sons were/are bipolar. My paternal grandfather had OCD. I suspect that my father has mild OCD. My mother has neither OCD nor bipolar disorder, but she is the type of person easily stressed, often worried, and quickly moved to tears; my sister (my only sibling) is exactly like my mother. OCD is clearly in my genes.

@ Octarine: I hear you. I doubt that your family is trying to be cruel; rather, people who have no frame of reference for something like OCD can't understand why it is the problem it is. "Just stop doing that" or "Just stop worrying" is advice that may or may not work with the non-OCD population, but people with OCD have brains that function differently; we can't "just stop." (As proof of how our brains function differently... They can now do catscans to diagnose OCD since certain parts of an OCD brain are overactive; those parts light up like Christmas trees.)

Frame of reference... It is the same with being asexual. If a person has no frame of reference, it would seem strange that asexuals were organizing. It also seems strange to many people that gays organize, as they think we are "in it" just for the sex and fail to hear our anguish, hurt, lonliness, desire to share our common experiences, and need for a community where we can be ourselves without fear, gain the legal rights we deserve, heal gays who have been ill used, and find quality partners instead anonymous one night stands. I would assume that this rings true for the asexual community as well, substituting, perhaps, romantic partners unaware of asexual needs for one night stands.

@ Placebo: Glad to answer, but please remember that I am just a layman and can only speak as one. :)

Understand that OCD fears are irrational and always false. I was once convinced that an unspeakable natural disaster was about to occur, and that the building I was in (whichever one at the moment) was about to be destroyed, killing me slowly and painfully. I lived with this anguish for years, not knowing what OCD was or why this thought would not go away. No amount of logic or reason could convince me otherwise. Eventually it got so bad that a crack in the sidewalk made me think of earthquakes; a windy day made me think of hurricanes; The Wizard of Oz made me think of tornados. When I started to become suicidal, I got help.

That's the way OCD fears work. Mine have always fit into four categories: natural disasters, extremist religion (religious OCD is called Scrupulosity), illnesses (I have been through periods where I was sure I had AIDS or cancer or Alzheimer's...) and people hating me. Others get germ phobia, for example.

In Brain Lock, there is the story of a young husband who became convinced that he had knives attached to his fingers; for that reason, he was afraid to touch his wife or baby for fear he would harm them. He could see that there were no knives, and everyone told him that there were no knives. However, OCD is called "the doubting disease" for a reason. He doubted the evidence of his eyes and what everyone told him, and needed treatment to get this notion out of his head.

Sexual fears are common, the most common, I believe, being ROCD (relationship OCD). This type of OCD centers on sexual performance, desirabilty, faithfulness, and so on. It might, for example, involve the suffer's becoming convinced that the partner is being unfaithful even though the parner is not and there is no evidence. It's just a physiological response (heightened anxiety and brain activity/"snowballing" thoughts) that makes it "feel real," as we say. Another common issue is POCD (Pedophile OCD), where the sufferer is terrified that he or she will turn into a pedophile even though there is no evidence for this. There is no basis for proof here either. Similarly, a person with OCD fears about murdering his or her family will not actually do that.

Less common and less understood is the one I deal with the most on my board: HOCD (Homosexual OCD). Most sufferers are heterosexual, and they become convinced that they are gay even though they know they are heterosexual. Remember what I said: OCD "feels real," which makes the person fear that it is true. The sufferer overthinks and 'proves' it with illogic instead of logic.

It is usually (not always!) easy to tell an HOCD rant from that of a tuly gay person in the closet. Here's something I once wrote and printed on the board.

STRAIGHT MALE HOCD SUFFERER: I know that I am gay, but I have only ever gotten hard with girls. This must be because I am in the closet, and I know that I'll suddenly get hard with guys once I come out. But the thought of being with another guy makes me sick. Damn, gay stuff is so disgusting! I'd never want some naked guy to touch me that way. But my mind tells me that this is what I want, and that I'll be O.K. with it once I come out because I am gay. But I'm not gay! But my mind tells me I am. Dammit, why won't my mind shut up? I do all this checking by looking at gay porn, and I still don't know what I am. But I just want to look at hot women instead. I have never been attracted to guys, but I know I am a gay guy. This anxiety is killing me. I can't even hear the word gay without becoming anxious.

GAY MALE IN THE CLOSET WITH NO HOCD: I know that I am gay, and I have only ever gotten hard with guys. I am in the closet because I am afraid people will reject me, yet I have always wanted with everything in me to fall in love with another man who loves me back. That would be so beautiful. I was taught that gay stuff was disgusting, but when I think of being held by a man I get butterflies in my stomach. When I see a guy I like, it just feels right. The only anxiety I feel is over what others think of gays and how I think I'll be treated by straight people in power if they find out about me. I don't feel any anxiety when I think about how lucky gay guys who are out of the closet must be, and I wish I could be like them.

That's what I have been dealing with for the past two years. :)

One important thing to note: The typical HOCD sufferer, if not a virgin, has been having and loving heterosexual sex for years when suddenly, at age 21 or 32 or 49, HOCD hits and it now seems as if he or she has "turned gay"--when, in fact, gay sex is still a turn-off.

There's also a tricky subset of people who may be Kinsey 1s or 2s instead of zeroes. They are primarily heterosexual but have some low-level same-sex attraction. Some are aware of this (making the HOCD easier to treat) and some are not. OCD is always an all or nothing affair, so in the mind of the HOCD sufferer you are either all gay or all not gay. Oy vey!

Because of homophobia in society, there is prejudice against HOCD sufferers (even though they are not homosexual) within the OCD community. Again, oy vey! Many OCD boards will not allow discussion of HOCD (It's too "graphic"), and since HOCD sufferers are a minority within the OCD community, they don't have much of a voice.

My board is one of the few that allows open, unedited HOCD discussion. (The person who our board is a conservative Christian, but she is also open-minded.) Those few boards that allow HOCD tend to have memberships that are about 75% HOCD. Thus, if you saw my board, you would think false gay fears consituted the bulk of OCD issues. In truth, as I have already stated, HOCD is a minority within the OCD community and largely misunderstood. Treatment for HOCD is hard to find in small communities, as many therapists think the person is actually gay. There are horror stories of HOCD who have tried gay sex--which they hated.

Some good articles on HOCD by reputable behavior therapists:

http://www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson7.php

http://www.homestead.com/westsuffolkpsych/Am_I_Gay.html

These are the two I send to people new to HOCD.

It is important to note that heterosexuals are not the only ones with HOCD. In the past we had a gay guy with false straight fears and a bisexual woman in a monogamous relationship with a man who had false fears that she was a lesbian and not bisexual.

HOCD can make sex difficult. Some stop all together since sex with a loving partner becomes odious, as it triggers all the HOCD fears. ("I'm not really enjoying this" or "One day I'll turn lesbian and leave my husband so this is pointless" or "I keep getting images of penisis when I touch my wife and it makes me lose my erection--so I must really be gay.") Others can have and enjoy heterosexual sex, but are bombarded by HOCD thoughts when they are not being sexual within their orientation.

Some OCD people with no sexual issues related to OCD have healthy sex lives. Others have stilted sex lives or none at all since their anxiety and/or depression is too high.

I, personally, have never had my OCD interfere with sex (aside from the irrational fear of AIDS I once had). I have never had HOCD, but I tell people that that is not an indication of my being more secure in my sexual identity than they are. I am just lucky. People with HOCD can be highly sexually active or not active at all. They can feel good about sex or inadequate before onset. Some were cool with gays and had gay friends before onset; others were homophobic before onset. It may have to do with environmental factors, or it may be the luck of the draw. My guess is that it is both.

Yes, Placebo, there are also people who are irrationally afraid of sex ("If I do it one time I'll get AIDS," for example) or who engage in it compulsively for a variety of reasons. OCD is a weird animal, and one can get obsessions or compulsions about nearly anything. HOCD is getting to be more common these days than it was in the past, and that may be because of all the media exposure gays receive today. After all, something must actually put the idea in someone's head. I would guess that sexual varieties of OCD have increased dramatically since the 1960s since sexuality has been at the forefront of the media since then.

All of these issues can usually be solved in treatment (behavior therapy and, if necessary medication), although there are some unlucky people with OCD who do not respond to any treatment or any medication. Brain surgery may be an option.

Medication may or may not be temporary. Even if one has to stay on it, sometimes dosage can be decreased. I was unable to go off it completely, but I now need only 25mg of Zoloft a day whereas I once needed 100mg.

Now, why I am here...

You now know about the gentleman from this board who was not well received on mine. What he posted triggered several people who had no context in which to interpret his remarks about being attracted to males since a young age but not gay. He then wrote about having HOCD and fearing he would be sexual with a male--but also about how his roommate and most of his friends were gay. That makes perfect sense in the asexual community, but on my board... Even I was confused until I followed his link and came here.

Most thought he was a troll trying to make people spike. (We get a few of those who think it is funny to make us live out our anguish, something very dangerous since there are suicidal people on my board.)

I can understand the reaction on my board, for despite my having my OCD mostly under control, I can still be triggered as well if someone talks about one of my issues in a sensationalistic way. OCD is never cured and does not go away; it just becomes manageable.

AS3 means "Asexuals in Support of Supportive Sexuals." It's a good thing. :D

We decided to call it AS3, when we first saw the acronym and it read "ASSS". :roll:

That's pretty funny. Actually, I can be quite an ass when I am in a bad mood, so maybe it's a rather apt thing to call me.

Thank you for explaining AS3. If I may ask, what are the numbers in the profiles next to "A/sexualness?"

Mixed signals... I had a co-worker who was Pentecostal and thus quite homophobic; she believed I had to repent of my homosexuality to go to Heaven. Yet, she would often give me fashion tips that she thought would help me find men since she knew I was single and looking. Odd...

[
"Why would you want to go in front of all of those people and talk about how bad you are in bed?" I also get the all-too-common, "You just haven't been with the right person, yet!"

How sad. The same things are said about gays. We're with men because we can't get women, or we haven't found the right woman yet, or something traumatic happened in childhood, or we're just plain perverts who can't get enough sex...

Put it this way... I am not into heavy duty sexual fetishes, but I was once on a fetish board when someone on my board was posting about OCD and sexual fetishes. What I saw there was the same theme over and over: "We love, but we love differently." That is exactly what I see here.

But that fact makes hearing from someone who does get it (and who expresses himself so eloquently) all the sweeter.

There is nothing to "get." Love is love. :)

In the late 80s and early 90s during New York City's Gay Pride Parade, there used to be an 80-something woman with a huge sign who stood on the same corner in Greenwich Village every year. A lot of people in the parade knew who she was and cheered or waved when they passed her. Her sign read: "Love, however expressed, is beautiful."

January 28, 2007

Thanks for the post, Mark, that's really interesting and I appreciate how well you explained everything (I can't imagine how long it must have taken to type all that out--phew. I'm impressed!)

I appreciate you coming here and trying to find out about the supposed "troll" (he he) on your board. ;)

The numbers next to the asexualness are from previous code when we had a check box where you could pick "asexual," "sexual" or "questioning" (I think. . . ) I think DJ changed the code so now they show up as numbers until we fill in the blank. ;)

In the late 80s and early 90s during New York City's Gay Pride Parade, there used to be an 80-something woman with a huge sign who stood on the same corner in Greenwich Village every year. A lot of people in the parade knew who she was and cheered or waved when they passed her. Her sign read: "Love, however expressed, is beautiful."

Aww, that's sweet. :)

January 28, 2007

Mark, I am a sexual married to an Asexual male for 23yrs. I have been diagnosed as having panic attacks and anxiety. Getting congitive therapy with prescription meds. Both have helped me to identify my body signals when things in life are getting to overwhelming for me and to accept myself as having this. Im doing so much better this year, Having gone from not being able to leave my house due to anxiety to having a part time job in the health care field and getting on with life.

Thank you for for sharing your life events with us. This is a very positive web site as we are all dealing with life issues and giving support. I dont think negative feedback on this site would be welcomed very long.

Wendy)

January 28, 2007

Hi again Mark,

I am not sure if I understood exactly what your HOCD/asexual friend was dealing with so this might be a moot question, but I was wondering if you could have asexual/sexual OCD, where you are actually asexual and are scared to death that you might actually be sexual? Or the other way around? I know when I first found AVEN I would have moments of doubt, recalling times when sex was not so bad and I was able to have fun...does that make me sexual (my current answer: no, you can have fun doing the dishes if you and your partner are creative enough and you have the right sort of relationship, but in general it is an unpleasant task that you do not feel driven to do), or I sometimes like kissing, does that make me sexual? (my answer: I actually enjoyed the symbolic value of kissing; that the relationship has progressed to a certain concrete point, or that he is still interested in me; the action itself is still awkward at best and gross at worst). But before I found these answers (which I still need to remind myself of now and again) I would doubt myself, and get a huge pit in my stomach because I don't want to be sexual, so what if I find out I am? Sometimes a Sexual would say something I totally don't comprehend and it would be such a huge relief (ok, I really am asexual, I don't feel that at all). So now I am happy where I am at but I was wondering if you think this sort of thing, if taken to extremes, could be a form of HOCD.

Also I thought the cat-scan thing was interesting. You mention later onset of OCD - so if a 25 year old with no OCD had a cat scan, then the same person developed OCD at age 35 and had another cat scan, hir two cat scans would be different? Or is there always some difference in brain activity indicating a tendency to OCD?

Thanks,

M51

January 29, 2007

@ WendyO: What a great post! Thank you so much for posting. :) It's so liberating to be freed from the slavery of an illness and start to really live again, isn't it? More power to you!

(I can't imagine how long it must have taken to type all that out--phew. I'm impressed!)

@ Placebo: No need to be impressed. And not that long, actually. I tend to be very, very, very long-winded whether speaking or writing. When I was a kid, my parents used to call me Chief Running Mouth. 8)

Besides, I do so much writing in my professional life and on the OCD board that I find it takes little effort. Polished writing, the kind I can publish, is another story. That's hours and hours and rewrites and rewrites--and sometimes a bit painful.

Hi again Mark,
I am not sure if I understood exactly what your HOCD/asexual friend was dealing with so this might be a moot question, but I was wondering if you could have asexual/sexual OCD, where you are actually asexual and are scared to death that you might actually be sexual? Or the other way around? I know when I first found AVEN I would have moments of doubt, recalling times when sex was not so bad and I was able to have fun...does that make me sexual (my current answer: no, you can have fun doing the dishes if you and your partner are creative enough and you have the right sort of relationship, but in general it is an unpleasant task that you do not feel driven to do), or I sometimes like kissing, does that make me sexual? (my answer: I actually enjoyed the symbolic value of kissing; that the relationship has progressed to a certain concrete point, or that he is still interested in me; the action itself is still awkward at best and gross at worst). But before I found these answers (which I still need to remind myself of now and again) I would doubt myself, and get a huge pit in my stomach because I don't want to be sexual, so what if I find out I am? Sometimes a Sexual would say something I totally don't comprehend and it would be such a huge relief (ok, I really am asexual, I don't feel that at all). So now I am happy where I am at but I was wondering if you think this sort of thing, if taken to extremes, could be a form of HOCD.

@ M51: Quite all right. OCD is a lot to take in at once, and even I am still learning.

Here's a good thing to think about. A first year med student usually thinks that he or she has half the illnesses in the book upon first encountering them. The same is true of first year psychology grads.

All mental disorders are found in the general population in very small doses. In other words, everyone is a teeny tiny bit OCD and bipolar, for example. Everyone has some irrational fears and mood swings. The degree of suffering and the duration of symptoms is what separates someone with a disorder (like me) from someone who just has a few issues but no disorder.

Coming to terms with your asexuality meant coming to terms with your sexual orientation. That is an incredibly stressful undertaking, and it is only natural that you would experience some panic, anxiety, and snowballing thoughts in the process. (Snowballing = an OCD term. Like a snowball rolling down a hill and picking up more snow, the thoughts get bigger and bigger and bigger until they are out of control.)

It is possible that your fears mirrored some of those of HOCD sufferers at the time, but on a much lower scale. In addition, your fears have passed via logic and self-realization. Logic does not work with true OCD.

As always, I have to say that I am not qualified to make a diagnosis. If your fears persist or come back in other forms, I would say look into them (preferably with an asexual-friendly therapist) to find out for sure. If they were attached only to the events you described, however, they are probably not anything to worry about.

That being said, yes, based on what I know about HOCD and what I have just learned about asexuality, it is possible for an asexual with OCD to develop false fears that he or she is really a sexual. These fears would be accompanied by intrusive, unwanted thoughts about how the person supposedly wanted to give oral sex or be penetrated or something like that, whereas that is the last thing the person would want to do. The person might also avoid all contacts with sexuals, as they would trigger the thoughts. (Similarly, HOCD in a heterosexual gives intrusive, unwanted thoughts about gay sex. Some people avoid the same sex at all costs and even end long-term friendships.) Sexual OCD always goes against a person's nature, which is why I tell HOCD sufferers that HOCD, like all forms of OCD, always lies.

It would also be possible for a sexual person with OCD that manifests as sexual fears to have false fears about being asexual if he or she knew what an asexual was. That is why I hesitated before posting about asexuality on the other board--and also posted the jokey warning about Beijing, Buenos Aires, and Bujumbua in my explanation of asexuality. If they smirk or snicker, I hope, it won't register as yet another false fear.

Also I thought the cat-scan thing was interesting. You mention later onset of OCD - so if a 25 year old with no OCD had a cat scan, then the same person developed OCD at age 35 and had another cat scan, hir two cat scans would be different? Or is there always some difference in brain activity indicating a tendency to OCD?

I don't know enough about biology to say for certain, but many folks had some OCD traits even before initial onset. As a child I, for example, worried about everything, was obsessed with neatness and order, could never cross out a mistake with just one line and had to cross it out thoroughly so that I could feel "right", took religion to extremes, and so on. My brain was overworking even then, I believe, and it may have shown up in a catscan if such had been possible in the 1970s.

I did not mean to imply that everyone would be hit by HOCD first. Some are; many are not. Someone can experience OCD onset at, say, 22 but not develop HOCD for ten years. It is actually easier to talk to HOCD people who have had other OCD issues before than people who start with HOCD, as I can point out the pattern in all OCD episodes to prove that this is an OCD issue and not a sexual orientation issue.

This is why treatment is so important. In addition to helping with present symptoms, it makes the development of future OCD issues less likely. Even some of us who have been treated successfully do experience relapses, but often those relapses are easier to treat and get rid of because of prior treatment.

Hope that helps. :)

Obviously, these issues are important to me, and I am happy to answer whoever I can whatever I can. Asexual awareness and education is the goal of this board, so I am sure my commitment to OCD awareness and education makes sense.

February 1, 2007

Hi, Mark.

Geez, I hope you're still around here somewhere. I thought maybe I should PM you, but I don't really have a problem with posting this publically (at least not as I'm writing this sentence- by the next sentence, it may be another matter) and, well, I was hoping I could tell you what's been going on in my head and get some input from you.

I haven't been officially diagnosed with anything. Not clinical depression, not social anxiety disorder, not OCD, not panic attacks, nothing. But I'm pretty certain I probably have all of those to one extent or another. I've only seen a therapist a couple times in my life and only because my parents were seeing one- I'd get dragged in, talked to, not say a word, and spend the next hour staring into space in the waiting room. Obviously this was many years ago. Since then I haven't wanted to talk to a therapist- I found 'ways' of 'dealing' with my feelings, if not my problems, and left it at that. However, I do spend the vast majority of my time depressed (though I am capable of happiness, and under the right circumstances can be happy a good deal), social situations make me extremely anxious, anywhere from feeling uncomfortable to not being able to make eye contact, hardly able to speak and bursting into tears if anyone addresses me, and I used to become violently ill. I don't have panic attacks often, I could probably guess that I've had less than 3 in my life. But, I have had two serious bouts with what I feel is OCD and lapses of milder forms since.

I know you're not an expert, but since you've been there, I was hoping I could ask you some things. I've looked up medical information on OCD, a wikipedia here, a webmd there, but it doesn't give me the answers from anyone who knows what it's really like.. not even a doctor can do that for me, although I feel that I will end up seeing a doctor about this if it goes on much longer. I believe my OCD was initially triggered by a traumatic experience when I was a child- actually, I'm certain of it. The OCD came on suddenly and maddeningly, and I found that there were routines I couldn't break and things I couldn't stop checking, such as doors, faucets, lights, and so forth. I'd stand there becoming exhausted checking them over and over and oftentimes crawl right back out of bed to do it again, unable to keep myself there. After the issue was addressed and the worst of my fears went away, the symptoms decreased, though they did continue for a few years (at least, I was a kid and don't distinctly recall the amount of time) and up until present time I have still at times had to pull myself away from one of my old routines or feeling paranoid about something I knew I shouldn't. Logic has been able to steer me away from it more often than not- it doesn't stop the feeling necessarily, but it keeps me from doing asinine behaviors fifteen times in a row before I either get dragged off or convince myself to stop.

It's about 10, 11 years after (what I feel is) OCD came on for me, and I've just had a second occurence of the same thing, ironically linked to the same event and paranoia that triggered it in the first place. It came on slowly at first, routines building up again, having to pull myself away, feeling paranoid and wildly concerned about things that shouldn't matter, whether they were possible or not. It has intensified recently, possibly due to stress, or maybe just on its own. I also had what I think was a panic attack at this time, and I have symptoms of panic and such when the irrational OCD fears arise- physical sensations, like heat building up in random parts of my face and neck, feeling as though I'm not breathing deeply enough. What struck me with your initial post was the mention of fears of natural disasters and religion- I have experienced both these things, and an increase of them in the last week or so, to the point where it's simply maddening and I felt like I was going to lose control. I went through the same methods to calm myself as I did the first time around a decade ago- spoke with my mother, had her logically walk me through it and try to soothe me emotionally (she's well experienced with psychology and has an assortment of problems herself, though I don't believe OCD is one of them) and it did help a great deal, but the fears and feelings are resurfacing (though admittedly to a lesser extent).

I know I can't be officially certain if I have OCD unless I see a doctor about it. Forgive me for skipping the vast majority of posts that have been written up until this point, but it's rather late and I'm tired, so I'll just ask... You mentioned that cat-scans are sometimes used to decide whether a person has OCD... Do you know if this is done often these days, or if general psych-panels and the like are the norm? Secondly, I realize that more likely than not therapy treatment and drug treatment are used to treat the more severe cases of OCD (which I am not certain that I have)... but in the case of the medicine used... What does it DO to a person? I've resisted going on depression medications for years in a fear that it would change some aspect of me (I don't think the fear is related to OCD- as I said, my mother has her own problems and I've seen what antidepression medications have done to her) or keep me from feeling anything at all, and I'd hate to go onto OCD medication for this same reason. Or if it left me feeling unconscious all the time and barely able to think straight.

Maybe it's just the logic I try to use to combat the OCD, but the two get all in tangles. Sometimes I think I don't have OCD, not really, just symptoms of it when I have a massive stress-related event like this, and that the rest of the time when I'm worrying about something chronically and can't let it go except for a force of utter willpower, that maybe it's because the events I'm worrying about DO happen, or are due to happen, or have happened more than once and therefore the 'security' I'm supposed to feel about them isn't necessarily absolute and therefore I'm just being precautionary and depressed about it, not OCD-fear based. All I know is that as of late I'm feeling bloody terrified about things that won't do me any good in the long run and yet I can't seem to stop for more than a short period of time. I feel irrationally afraid of things I can't find reasons for- religion, sleep, being alone- and though I would like those things to go away, if all the medication did was numb the anxiety, it wouldn't do me any good. The thoughts would still drive me mad. I realize this is probably where the therapy comes in and I would try to go along with it, but the whole thing looks rather hopeless from my perspective and that's why I ask. It feels as though this will never go away no matter what I do or what I try.

Does anyone ever really get 'over' OCD? Or is able to live their life like they don't have it, with meds and therapy? Or does it simply improve a bit? *Sigh*

Anyone who has any knowledge of this and has been there (or knows someone who's been there) can pitch in, certainly... I'm going back to spinning in circles now.

February 1, 2007

Mark,

Thanks for the informative post!

I'm sorry that the social situation in many countries is such that gays and lesbians have a very hard time, in how they are treated and in legislation. Myself living in a country which allows them much of what is natural for us - officially same rights, but prejudice hasn't died out yet -, I sometimes think it's ridiculous when I hear about treatment and laws in other countries - and I believe the USA is not among the "friendliest".

February 1, 2007

@ MaraKarina; Thank you for the very kind words. I also like what you wrote on the "Song of Solomon" thread. :)

@ LostPenguin: Hey there! Yes, I'm still around. I know not to post about OCD and then disappear. Just as people from this board would be more than happy to help someone on a non-asexuality board who expressed a need to know more, I am more than happy to help with OCD issues whenever I find someone who wants more information.

I'll answer to the best of my ability--and you are, of course, welcome to ask as many additional questions as you wish. :)

On the OCD board, I always urge people to post things publically unless what they have to say is just too personal to share with all. There are always people who lurk on boards but never post; they may have the same issues and may also benefit from what we say in public.

As far as the number of disorders you feel you have... It is unlikely that you have them all, so don't worry. :) You may have one or two (or may not); sometimes you can have one disorder but also have a couple of overlapping symptoms normally associated with a different one. That, however, does not mean you also have the other disorder.

Hi, Mark.
However, I do spend the vast majority of my time depressed (though I am capable of happiness, and under the right circumstances can be happy a good deal), social situations make me extremely anxious, anywhere from feeling uncomfortable to not being able to make eye contact, hardly able to speak and bursting into tears if anyone addresses me, and I used to become violently ill. I don't have panic attacks often, I could probably guess that I've had less than 3 in my life. But, I have had two serious bouts with what I feel is OCD and lapses of milder forms since.

The key factor in distinguishing having a disorder from not having a disorder but having a few issues that could otherwise be considered symptoms of a disorder is how much stress your issues cause, how much they prevent you from functioning to the best of your ability, how much they interfere with your happiness and well-being, and how much they prevent you from engaging in or trying activities in which you would like to be involved. In addition, it is normal to feel very down and have a lot of bad thoughts after a death or a traumatic event; they disappear in time. If they do not, then a disorder is more likely. In the case of OCD specifically, one must also consider how long one spends ruminating on the unpleasant thoughts and urges.

I would also like to make it clear that anyone who has dealt with issues of being different in a society that falsely claims everyone is another way--This includes issues related to coming to terms with asexuality as absolutely normal instead of listening to society's buzz--is indeed going to feel depressed, awkward, and insecure. As a person gets support from others (in this case, from other asexuals and from asexual-friendly people) and makes friends in the community, it gets easier and easier to overcome all the mental noise. However, if the noise stays the same or gets stronger, or if it comes back in different forms, then a person should look into therapy and, perhaps, medication.

I now see my OCD therapist only once in a while, and, by chance, I saw him earlier this week. In the initial let's-catch-up bit at the beginning of the session, I had mentioned my finding this board and asked him if he knew about asexuality. He answered yes, and what he then said made me feel that he would treat asexuals with dignity and respect in therapy. (He is heterosexual, but he has always treated me and my gay sexuality with respect, as he understands the issues and has had other gay clients.) If you do consider therapy and are asexual, it is necessary to see someone who understands and respects asexuality.

For any of the issues you mentioned, behavior therapy is the way to go to change such behaviors. As I have already mentioned in this thread, (Freudian) psychoanalysis is useful for many issues, but not issues related to OCD, panic disorder, and so on. On the other hand, if you feel there are unresolved issues in your past and/or other things you really need to talk about, psychoanalysis may be for you.

I believe my OCD was initially triggered by a traumatic experience when I was a child- actually, I'm certain of it. The OCD came on suddenly and maddeningly, and I found that there were routines I couldn't break and things I couldn't stop checking, such as doors, faucets, lights, and so forth. I'd stand there becoming exhausted checking them over and over and oftentimes crawl right back out of bed to do it again, unable to keep myself there. After the issue was addressed and the worst of my fears went away, the symptoms decreased, though they did continue for a few years (at least, I was a kid and don't distinctly recall the amount of time) and up until present time I have still at times had to pull myself away from one of my old routines or feeling paranoid about something I knew I shouldn't. Logic has been able to steer me away from it more often than not- it doesn't stop the feeling necessarily, but it keeps me from doing asinine behaviors fifteen times in a row before I either get dragged off or convince myself to stop.

Of course, I cannot tell you whether or not you have OCD, but what you wrote does indeed sound a lot like OCD to me; I can relate to almost everything that you have written. (Then again, you might have social anxiety disorder or panic disorder but not OCD--one of the reasons a layman like me cannot make a diagnosis.) A tramautic event can indeed trigger or exacerbate OCD symptoms, although a person can also develop them without such an event if he or she is predisposed to them.

What you said about your mom walking you through things logically and its having a positive effect on you makes me think that you may have a generalized anxiety disorder instead of OCD. Or maybe it is OCD. Or maybe you have no disorder. Again, I have no way of knowing; I just want you to see that there is more than one possibility. Happily, all of these disorders are in the same family, and teatment is similar--often the same.

Some people with other issues or other disorders can develop OCD-like symptoms. (That is another reason I dare not make a diagnosis since I am not a trained therapist.) Some people may have anxiety or panic attacks as the result of a physical ailment, not as the result of the way their brain is wired. Treating the physical issue often eliminates these symptoms. There are also cases--very, very rare!--where people not necessarily pre-disposed to OCD develop it after brain surgery or electric shock therapy. Some people (again, not too common) develop it as a reaction to medication for something totally unrelated, but it often goes away when the medication is changed or stopped.

OCD is usually cyclical, and people often experience on and off phases. Others are simply "on" all the time.

As far as catscans are concerned... I know that the nephew of a friend may have OCD, and his doctor had just recommended a catscan. I do not now much about the procedure and have never had it myself. Since people with OCD often doubt that they have OCD (a common OCD symptom, as people with OCD doubt many things), one thing that some therapists do is to show them the results of their catscan compared to a so-called "normal" brain. I have seen pictures of such comparisons, and the way certain parts of an OCD brain "light up" is obvious even to my untrained eye.

Usually, though, a trained diagnostician can determine OCD through an interview and a series of questions; it usually takes an hour or so. OCD follows a very clear pattern. Most people I know had OCD diagnosed this way, and given what I know about them I have no doubt that, like me, they really do have OCD. It's like being asexual and recognizing asexuality in others--or, in my case, recognizing homosexuality in others. It takes one to know one.

Medication... People get so scared, often without cause. The most common side effect of SSRIs is a decrease in libido and sexual desire. Somehow, I don't see that as a problem on this board.

Actually, most people taking SSRIs do not have this side effect. It is just the most common one. Each person reacts differently, but medication can be changed if side effects are undesirable or likely to increase negative feelings. I am fine on Zoloft and have almost no side effects; someone else might not do well on Zoloft but might do wonderfully on Paxil.

As for my side effects... Right now I am only on 25 mg, and the only things I see are a decreased ability to cry (only two or three tears at a funeral instead of sobbing) and an increase in laziness because I feel so good. (The latter is managed through what I have learned in behavior therapy.) I also put on weight more easily with Zoloft, but I manage this with healthy eating and exercise. (Others may lose weight on Zoloft, by the way, and some doctors prescribe it as a diet pill. This is a misuse of it, in my opinion.) On 100 mg, the dosage I used to have to take, the only other side effect was my libido's being down a bit--but I could still function sexually and enjoy it even though it took longer to, ahem!, 'do things'. Others have no sexual side effects (fairly common); others experience no sexual desire while on the medication. I have had no other side effects--and nothing I have experienced on Zoloft has ever been really bad.

The payoff is that I feel good, the way I am supposed to feel. This does not mean happiness and joy 24/7, as no one ever experiences that. I can still feel sadness or anger or fear, but they are now the same as what most people feel. (That won't make much sense to the non-OCD population. You'll have to take my word on it)

Not everyone needs medication. It depends on the severity of the OCD or other disorder. By the way, in the case of OCD, severity is not measured in terms of how bad the symptoms are but in terms of how easy or hard they are to treat. Along with behavior therapy, many people need only one medication (like me) or none at all. Some (not most) need many medications.

In choosing whether or not to take medication, one must weigh pros and cons. My life used to be unbearable, and I once wondered if suicide was the only way to shut off my OCD horrors. I do not regret going on medication, and I would probably say that even if I were one of the people who had even more side effects.

People with OCD have defective brains. The part in our brain that calms us down naturally and helps us to stop feeling so anxious does not work properly. SSRIs get it moving again. I don't see medication as merely numbing the pain (unless, of course, one takes it without therapy--as too many people do since they do not wish to confront the actual issue). My willingness to undertake behavior therapy and do my homework (Yes, unlike in psychoanalysis, you get HOMEWORK in behavior therapy!) is why, I believe, I only need 25% of the dosage of Zoloft I once needed.

It feels as though this will never go away no matter what I do or what I try.

If you do have OCD or some other disorder, that is the disorder talking. So many of us used to feel that way yet really did get better. I enjoy my life now--not every minute since no one enjoys every minute, but most of it.

Does anyone ever really get 'over' OCD? Or is able to live their life like they don't have it, with meds and therapy? Or does it simply improve a bit? *Sigh*

There is no cure for OCD. What happens is that you learn how to manage it. As you do, your symptoms decrease significantly, as does the frequency with which they occur. I still experience little annoying things, but they are nothing like before. Moreover, much of the time I feel like a person with no OCD.

I know that the answers I have given are general. I am not shy, and I would be glad to be more specific and even talk about personal things I went through if that will help you or anyone else.

Knowledge is power, and the more you recognize disorders or even issues that are not disorders for what they are, the less they will bother you. :)

February 18, 2007

@ Everyone: So... Has anyone reading this thread ever dealt with an assexual with any form of OCD, panic disorder, agoraphobia, or anything else in that family of disorders? Is there anything I can tell you about OCD or anything I have mentioned in my posts (even if not related to OCD)?

As a child I went from one 'obsession' to another, from when I was about seven to 15. Was never diagnosed, but my family and friends noticed and seemed to think it was an irritating phase or string of phases. I understand that OCD is only diagnosed in part if the symptoms interfere with normal functioning or emotions. Well, mine did sometimes. One of these was sunburn: I was afraid of dying too soon because of sun damage and used to put blankets or coats over my whole body in car journeys when the sun was out. If none were to hand I'd spend the whole journey looking out for sunrays so I could whip my hands and arms away. Outside, I'd stand in any shadow I could, including those of people. This probably didn't stop until I was 14 and decided to lose weight instead. Somehow I just stopped caring so much about the sun when I had something 'new'; it was strange, but a pattern I now realise repeated itself often. :? Before that, the first one I remember was a need to have all the pressure on my body symmetrical. If one hand touched something, the other would have to as well. Then again, in reverse order. That wasn't even enough either, so I'd repeat it until I lost track of the times and order. This one made tasks like getting in and out of cars more elaborate than necessary, as you'd imagine.

I believe these symptoms were reactions to my anxiety, which was mainly caused by social phobia. When this was eventually cured (and it is gone completely now :shock:) my obsessions became less prominent. The mental scars left over from the phobia meant that I tended to feel miserable and anxious more easily than most. Apart from the healing power of time, and finding new places and faces to explore, my now very carefully managed diet also keeps these problems at bay and more: most of the time I seem among the happiest people I know these days. :) Personally, docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, a kind of omega 3 acid) seems to affect my mood immensely. As with all nutrients, the need and effect probably varies between individuals for genetic reasons, and I'm someone it definately impacts. I now realise that the time in my life where I stopped eating tinned oily salmon every week was the same year that my emotional health started to deteriate drastically. Now I take pure DHA supplements from algae everyday and wake up aware of being happy before I'm aware of what day it is, where I am or who I am :mrgreen: Never considered life could be like that!

That's my story.

Many things you've said have resonated with me. I identify with your ability to become intensely interested in several topics at once, and to have to reign in your enthusiasm lest others suddenly appear very awkward (think you mention that in another thread). I pick close friends carefully, because I can't be completely myself around most people without making them awkward, because of this 'nerdy' enthusiasm. It wouldn't be a problem at all otherwise. I suspect it will be less of a problem when I'm no longer a student surrounded by people my own age with normal youthful interests. Anyway, being introverted (another physiological trait), it's no real sacrifice to have a smaller circle of friends and spend time exploring interests alone. 'Loneliness' is something I rarely experience at all and never when actually physically alone. My own mind is all the company I need much of the time... other people have this habit of interrupting my mind and me, which induces loneliness more than anything else. :P

How prevalent is that particular characteristic (intense interest in unusual topics) among people with OCD, in your experience? I know it's common with Asperger's Syndrome, which I'm sure I don't have (I score very highly on emotional intelligence and facial expression recognition tests).

Thanks for sharing so much with us Mark, it's been fascinating.

February 18, 2007

Mark, you rock!

February 19, 2007

Thanks, oneofthesun! :)

Hi, square peg

Glad to hear that you are doing so well!

I hear you. I went through the same thing with so many weird obsessions as a child. The silliest one was my intense fear of mummies and my being afraid of my third or fourth grade social studies text since it had pictures of mummies in it. I used to say compulsive prayers every evening, begging God not to "let the mummies come out of the book."

(Non-Americans: "Social studies" is a field all Americans must study from elementary school through high school. Since we do not study history, geography, et al as unique fields until university, social studies is a blend of history, geography, political science, sociology, psychology, comparative religion, and anthropology with--in my opinion--a healthy dose of pseudo-science and jingoistic patriotism thrown in.)

It's amazing how many symptoms people like us can eliminate by changing the way we eat. I believe another reason my medication is only 25% of what it used to be is my having eliminated all caffeine except chocolate (no coffee or tea--not even decaf since it contains a little caffeine, no soda, etc.), all alcohol, and all artificial sweeteners. (The latter may cause increased agitation and insomnia.) I also work hard on eating less like an American, which means that dinner is a small meal, breakfast and lunch are more important, and fast food (especially fried food) is something I have only as an occasional treat.

'Nerdy enthusiasm'... Hee hee. Add to the mix that I am a lifelong science fiction/Star Trek/comic book fan who is always talking about the three... Can you say... GEEK!!!

I honestly don't know how prevalent intense interest in multiple topics is among people with OCD, but I have met other OCD people who share it. My best friend has another friend with OCD, and this person is always sending him long e-mails about new interests of his. "He reminds me of you," my friend says. Of course, there are plenty of others with OCD who do not share these intense interests. I have read that a disproportionate number of OCD people are extremely creative and/or book smart/intellectual. That may account for our interests, as they are also true of academics. There is probably a disproportionate number of OCD academics as well.

February 22, 2007

Thanks for the answer Mark. I've heard of other mental disorders being correlated with certain kinds of intelligence too, though not amazingly so.

I'm caffeine-free too, apart from the occasional chocolate. Caffeine and alchohol stop you absorbing nutrients properly, so I've read. Certainly unnecessary, anyway. Personally I prioritise the omission of hydrogenated oils above all else. That stuff's evil.

February 22, 2007

Yay, Trekkie! My myspace name is IDIC. :) I also thought very seriously about teaching ESL in a university - I haven't applied to grad school for it yet, but I haven't discounted the possibility, either.

As for OCD, I know I have a couple of tendencies. Like you said, I think everyone has a little bit of everything in them, it's just a matter of degree. Mine aren't debilitating, though, so I've never felt the need to seek treatment. For instance, I have this thing about cracking my knuckles. If I crack even one of them, I have to do them all. The same number of times each, one at a time, no matter if they need to be cracked or not. I've tried stopping in the middle of my routine, just to see what would happen. And it almost drove me crazy, I had to finish my routine. My family and friends make fun of me for it sometimes, but it doesn't really bother me. Just one of my little quirks. I also have to have all of my CDs and DVDs exactly straight up and down in their cases. I tried leaving one crooked one time in college when I left for class - as soon as I left the building I actually had to turn around and come back to fix it, otherwise I knew it was going to bother me all day. But as long as I put everything in its case properly, there's no problem, so I just add it to my list of quirks, lol.

And welcome to our board!! It's always great when people come here to learn and accept. :D :cake:

February 27, 2007

Hi, just want to say I just read this whole thread and, as a possible asexual and third year psychology student, found it fascinating. Thanks for the info!

Someone from this board was misunderstood on my OCD board

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