To Heal or Not to Heal

[Chiaroscuro]

That is the question.

For many of you folks, asexuality is something wired into you from birth... like homosexuality or heterosexuality... a true orientation. That's not something that anyone should feel they need to "fix". But people are asexual for reasons other than orientation (my wife Sunset being a case in point). For her, asexuality isn't an orientation, it's a defense against horrific memories... a way to keep herself, in air-quotes, safe. Unlike the "true" asexual, should folks like her try to heal? Or should they accept the relief from anxiety that asexuality offers, and live with its limitations?

I ask this, because I've been looking at Sunset for a long time now as if she were a "true" asexual, when she's not. She's a sexual person who's suppressing part of herself out of fear. She is happy keeping that fear at bay, not having the bad feelings that are associated with sex overwhelm her. At first I thought this was reasonable. But I'm beginning to question that, because I see how it's spread to other parts of her life. She's been "safe" from sexual advances for a long time now, but that's not safe enough. She has to keep people at arms length emotionally. The other night, when I was speaking admiringly about her, she asked me to stop because it was too much... it was making her feel threatened. If I get choked up talking about the love I feel for her, and the value I place on our relationship, she goes blank and, again, asks me to stop. Physical closeness too, is off-limits (with the notable exception of back scratches!)... no holding hands, no standing too close to her when we speak. It's not just sex, is my point.

So, while asexuality isn't something that everyone should try to overcome (because it's not a symptom of anything), I think that, when asexuality IS a defense against some deeper hurt, automatically turning away from healing as if you were an asexual by orientation, can be destructive. I acknowledge that, as Sunset's husband, I have a stake in this. But if asexuality is less about being yourself than it is about fending off imaginary dangers, is it really the path towards happiness? Agoraphobics are scared of open spaces, and feel threatened if they leave the house. Is never leaving the house the answer? Is staying inside forever their path towards happiness?

Okay, climbing down off my soap-box: is healing from asexuality ever the answer? If so, how do you know when trying to heal is the right thing to do? Or the wrong thing to do? How would you define the difference? Am I just being a selfish, sexual monster?

I'd appreciate your thoughts,

-Chiaroscuro

[BunnyK.]

I've never gone through a terrible trauma, only the normal traumas of everyday life, but in my experience when fear is holding you back, it's best to work on it.

For example, I've been "blessed" with horrible social anxiety, which for a while severely limited the amount of people I could even have a conversation with without stuttering or flipping words around or even completely freezing up - and trying to get past that has made my life immeasurably more comfortable. I mean sure, I could have just locked myself in the house and avoided any jobs or social situations that would have made me interact with new people (a distinct possibility at one point). But I'm an extrovert and actually like people, under the crippling fear, and it's nice to now be able to chat with a stranger about the weather without feeling more than a shiver or two of anxiety.

Fear can keep you "safe", but in my opinion healing gives you freedom.

But again, I've never been exposed to something so terrible as Sunset has.

[feef]

Mmmm, back scratches.... I like those....

I think most changes in people aren't about healing, or external forces wanting to change the way a person thinks or feels - it's about that person wanting to change, and using external forces to achieve their goal.

I mean, another person can suggest it, but the end result depends on the person, right?

[Daysleeper]

I totally agree with feef about this. No one can change/heal at least they want to and it does not seem to be your wife case, and I am sorry for that.

In my partner case is the same. I wish he had the desire to over come his teenage year traumas, but he rather stay away from sex all togheter. That is his choice to make and I respect it.

Of course He must respect my choice to have a healthy sex life (or what I believe it is so) too. It is a two way street.

[silvergirl]

I believe that when that judgement day comes it is we who will judge what we made of the only life we had, that precious life that was entrusted to our care. I think more people regret what they didn't do than what they did do.

I am reminded of the chant from Dune - fear is the mind killer.

[Chiaroscuro]

I am reminded of the chant from Dune - fear is the mind killer.

I must not fear.

Fear is the mind-killer.

Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.

I will face my fear.

I will permit it to pass over me and through me.

And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.

Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.

Only I will remain.

Yeah, pretty strong stuff! Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.

-Chiaroscuro

[M51]

Chiaro, as always you have my sympathy. I don't feel qualified to make an assertive opinion on this. I can say I have always felt the need to challenge my own fears and weaknesses, and have come out pretty darn fearless and strong...

But sexual assault is different, in so many ways. I just can't say.

Although one thing you said struck me:

She's a sexual person who's suppressing part of herself out of fear.

I am not sure you can ever be truly happy suppressing a part of yourself. Isn't that the whole reason most asexuals are so happy to find this site? When they find this site and realize they have denied or hidden that aspect of who they were, it is almost always a huge relief. Even if they didn't realize they were suppressing themselves, even if they were living perfectly happily without knowing or understanding that they were asexual, they find this site and go "oooohhhhh," and it is like a ton of bricks lifted off their shoulders, because whether they knew it or not, they were suppressing a part of themselves in pretending to fit in this highly sexualized world. So I wonder if somewhere deep inside Sunset would experience a similar relief if she was able to find ways to express her repressed sexuality...I wonder, even if she consciously believes that reclaiming her sexuality would not help, even if she consciously believes that repressing her sexuality is the best for her...if somewhere she is hurting herself by denying her sexuality...?????

But God, sexual assault is so awful I just do not want to second guess her. It is not something I have experienced and I just do not feel comfortable making any kind of judgment about it. I just don't know. :(

[Kallan]

I agree that all persons should seek to overcome their trauma. Some traumas are stronger than other and take more time and will to overcome. Nevertheless, we should seek to overcome them, for if we do not we leave ourselves weak and open to further trauma. We must also be careful that in our quest to find strength and overcome our trauma that we do not ourselves cause trauma upon others.

[Platy79]

I can say from my own past abuse as a child that it is the hardest thing to overcome, to get past that fear of being physically touched or intimate at all... and its definately not something that anybody can push you to do, it definately has to come from the person who was traumatized. I am the sexual in my relationship but even still there were moments in past relationships I had, when we would get to certain parts of being intimate where I would freeze, and probably still would. All you can do is be patient, give her all the love and support you can, but never push it.

[Placebo]

I am not sure you can ever be truly happy suppressing a part of yourself. Isn't that the whole reason most asexuals are so happy to find this site? When they find this site and realize they have denied or hidden that aspect of who they were, it is almost always a huge relief. Even if they didn't realize they were suppressing themselves, even if they were living perfectly happily without knowing or understanding that they were asexual, they find this site and go "oooohhhhh," and it is like a ton of bricks lifted off their shoulders, because whether they knew it or not, they were suppressing a part of themselves in pretending to fit in this highly sexualized world.

Wow, you said it well, M51. I agree that it's best if people can be their whole selves. Whatever that may be.

But. . . it seems like Sunset is not ready or able to change right now. For whatever reason. How do you begin helping someone to heal when they're not ready (or able) to take the first step?

Out of curiosity, does Sunset keep the kids at "arm's length emotionally," too?

[vikingo]

I think more people regret what they didn't do than what they did do

IMO: Be trustful and trustworthy and work with it.

... is not ready or able to change right now ...

IMO: It is not about people who are to be changed. It is about two people who develop in togetherness. Please.

[funaladanaly]

I think I heard somewhere that the difference between a true asexual and someone just repressing a bad trauma is that a true asexual has never been interested in sex, and the other used to be sexual.

I've been told that I needed to go to therapy, but I had to ask myself, what would I tell the therapist? That I was bullied as a child, but I got over it years ago? I think that is another difference too. If you can think of a traumatic event that would lead to asexuality, such as your wife, it is probably a good idea to get those problems worked out. I got over the bullying issues by confronting them head on a few years back. Your wife needs to get over the issues she has by confronting them head on. Its the only way to heal.

I don't think that you are selfish. By being here, you are trying to understand. It sounds like that you went into the marriage with a sexual person who over time, has started to have those issues reemerge. If she went into marriage giving you the notion that it was okay to hold hands, kiss, cuddle, have sex, etc, then you should in no way feel any guilt for wanting it now.

As her husband, support her and try to get her to see that she probably isn't asexual. You've talked to asexuals and they agree - if there is a past sexual trauma keeping you from doing all the things you used to enjoy, there is a problem that needs to be helped.

[Chiaroscuro]

Out of curiosity, does Sunset keep the kids at "arm's length emotionally," too?

No, Placebo, she's very intimate with them (and with our dog :)). It's me, the big, scary man, that causes problems in that department. But it affects her relationships with the kids in other ways. For example, she's hypervigilent about even the slightest danger, and can freak the kids out by showering urgent instructions on them. One night, I was in town and she discovered the sliding door on the porch was open a crack. She feared someone might have broken into the house, and was hiding in the basement. She had the kids barricaded in the bedroom with her while I drove back home, staying on the cell phone with her the entire time to keep her calm. So, even though it's not about sexual issues with the kids, her fear of looming danger is something that informs their lives every day.

IMO: It is not about people who are to be changed. It is about two people who develop in togetherness. Please.

But what I'm discussing here, Vikingo, IS about people who are to be changed... or who aren't. Asexuality is a personal thing, it doesn't only exist in relationships. My wife and I have developed in togetherness, as you put it, for sixteen years. She's my best and most trusted friend. The problem is that, if we come too closely together, her fear slams on the brakes. What I'm wondering is if it's precisely her desire to avoid change that prevents our ability to develop in togetherness.

I respect her need to feel safe. She's the person I love, I don't want to see her subjected to any discomfort, ever. But at what point does avoiding short-term pain stand in the way of one's ability to live a happy life? I can't "make" her take on the short-term pain, any more than she can force me to confront the things in my life that are blocking me. I'm beginning to suspect, however, that asexuality isn't a healthy model of how to live FOR HER. She isn't naturally asexual. Asexuality is just one aspect of a defense. One that's exhausting her, and preventing her from being happy. Another example: she's always looking for a big change that will make life better. Getting a dog was one of those. Moving to another house. Going to live in a cabin in the woods. Austere financial control. Simplicity. Getting a divorce. Living in Switzerland. It gets exhausting for the rest of us. We're happy to just live, making small changes along the way as needed. But Sunset seems restless, like life isn't really worth living... yet. She's searching for the one big fix that will help her feel fulfilled. From my point of view, the "big fix" that might give her that fulfillment, is the one she won't look at. And without that big fix, all the other little fixes won't do the trick.

So, to return to the topic briefly (:lol:), I can see where the idea of asexuality must be confusing for therapists. Sometimes a patient really is asexual, but sometime's it's a defense. Treating all asexuals the same way is wrong. Therapists probably need to develop some sort of testing, or at least guidelines, to help determine when asexuality is someone's true nature and when it stands in the WAY of that person's true nature. My guess from talking to all of you is that, right now, therapists tend to assume all asexuality is a defense or physical dysfunction. But I think it's probably also wrong to say that NO asexuals need to heal. It's not as clear-cut as homosexuality in that sense.

Does any of this make sense? Or am I fooling myself, because it's what I want?

-Chiaroscuro

PS - Funalad posted while I was writing this. Thanks, Fun! You addressed a lot of what I was, in my confused way, trying to get at. Yes, you're right, she "used" to be sexual... not hyper-sexual, but she loved to snuggle, to sleep together, all of that. The asexuality emerged as the troubling memories did.

[vikingo]

... My wife and I have developed in togetherness ... for sixteen years...

There still is room for development ;)

... The problem is that, if we come too closely together, her fear slams on the brakes...

You have to work with the fear. The fear still outpowers the togetherness. If it is still so after so much time, seeking professional advice could be the way to go. I just don't think that fear can be beaten with force but it can be disarmed with trust.

[Chiaroscuro]

The fear still outpowers the togetherness

It certainly does. Both Sunset and I are in therapy. She for four-five years, me for one. Therapy is an amazing gift.

-Chiaroscuro

[pickles.]

How old are your kids, Chiaroscuro? This is off topic, but do they know or notice that you and Sunset are not affectionate? If so, do they know why?

--T

[Chiaroscuro]

How old are your kids, Chiaroscuro? This is off topic, but do they know or notice that you and Sunset are not affectionate? If so, do they know why?

--T

My daughter is 15, my son is 9. We had a "blow up" about a year ago now, while I was out of town (Sunset found erotic emails between me and an on-line friend), and she told the kids that we were going to divorce. I spoke with them on the phone, and explained to my daughter at least, as best I could, why I had a "girlfriend" online. I told her that Sunset's dad had hurt her when she was a little girl, and that it meant that she couldn't me "romantic" with me. I had gone on-line to try to find that feeling that Mom couldn't share with me. She cried and asked if she was Grandad's baby, which tore my heart out. But other than that, she actually talked Sunset into sitting down and talking to me, which de-escalated the situation and started the process that led us to Aven and this topic :)

In a way, I'm glad it happened, though being away from home when it happened was something I never want to repeat. The kids did get a feeling that things were rocky. But we told them that we were not going to do anything right away, that we loved each other and them, and were going to try to work things out and stay together. They're seeing us working. I feel their eyes on me constantly. It's an incentive to do this right (whatever "this" ends up being).

Oh, and we are affectionate, just not physically affectionate. I think they see that we enjoy each other's company.

-Chiaroscuro

[pickles.]

Ah, yes...I was thinking about affection in the narrow, physical sense -- but it is so much more.

Also, thanks for sharing.

--T

[silvergirl]

People need a strong incentive to change. I belong to a group of people who have made major changes in their lives, and as one author put it, we do it when the pain of not doing it becomes greater than the fear of doing it.

[ghosts]

Well, I don't think orientation is something that's wired into us from birth. I think some of it's biological, but I think some of it's social/environmental as well.

I sort of cringe at the term "'true' asexual". Because, I think there's so much variation in how we got to where we are now, and in how we feel, that it seems pointless. But... I don't know how to answer your question- or if I have an answer for it. Part of me thinks that if someone is the way they are as a result of past trauma, then perhaps it would be best to try to heal & return to how they were originally. But then a part of me is also saying that everyone has some sort of experience(s), however small or however large, that orients them in a certain direction. And then another part of me is saying that we're assuming that being sexual (and being heterosexual) is the normal state, and all others are deviants...

So, I don't know. I think a lot of people identify as asexual because it is a positive way of thinking. Perhaps for some, it can also be a way of not dealing with a person's problems.

I'd like to ask you something, just because I'm curious. I know someone who must be in her 30's or 40's now, and she's a lesbian. However, she was molested by her father repeatedly when she was a child. She feels that she is gay as a result of this experience. Do you think your question applies to her situation as well?

[M51]

Chiaro,

I still don't want to put forth a specific opinion on your wife, but the more I think about this the more I think facing trauma is the way to go. I used to be in gymnastics, and any time we fell off the balance beam or the uneven bars, or took a hard landing on floor or vault, if we were physically able to, our coach would make us get right back up and do the same trick again. This was because the longer you go after a hurtful event without facing that fear, the stronger the fear latches on to you. I shattered my elbow dismounting from the uneven bars when I was eleven - a month in the hospital, seven months of recovery. My first day back at the gym, I knew exactly what my coach would have me do - that same move. Again. And again. And again. Until I was no longer afraid of it. And perhaps that is part of what instilled in me this drive to overcome any fear or trauma in my own life.

But what if I hadn't gotten back up on those uneven bars? I had seven years of gymnastics left in me. I had a lot of fun. A lot of friends. Developed a lot of confidence and character in that gym. I would have missed out on all of that if I had looked at those bars and said no way. Never again. I would have missed out on a lot of life.

Now, granted, when I got back up on the bars I had two coaches spotting me (ready to catch me if I fell), one of those big, two foot thick fluffy mats beneath me, and a whole crowd of friends cheering me on. And I was definitely scared. So I am not saying Sunset should just go and do it. Especially since her fear has had YEARS and DECADES to burrow deep into her psyche. It is not going to be easy. But it felt so good to not be afraid of that move anymore...to know I had conquered it.

So in a way I guess this post is more for Sunset. If you decide to try to face your fears rather than live with it, I am here to cheer you on. And also I don't know that facing your fears will make you sexual again. Maybe you could come completely to grips with your fears and still find that the asexuality persists. But at least you will know you faced your fears and are not missing out on life.

She's searching for the one big fix that will help her feel fulfilled.

As far as that goes, Sunset could always try throwing herself out of an airplane...with a parachute on, of course. Works for me. :D

PS, when I talk about getting back up on the uneven bars and doing the same move, I am NOT suggesting that Sunset force herself to have sex. Like I said in an earlier post, sexual trauma is different from other traumas and must be dealt with differently. I just meant to inspire the hope that she can face her fears, that she can deal with them and overcome them...but the method will surely be different!

[funaladanaly]

I sort of cringe at the term "'true' asexual". But then a part of me is also saying that everyone has some sort of experience(s), however small or however large, that orients them in a certain direction. And then another part of me is saying that we're assuming that being sexual (and being heterosexual) is the normal state, and all others are deviants...

No one here is assuming that being heterosexual is the normal state (though nature speaking, it is). However, there is a problem when a person who was once sexual and enjoyed being sexual no longer is because some repressed memories have bubbled to the surface. It is a sign that there was some trauma that needs to be worked out. By no means is forcing sex upon one who doesn't want it the right answer, but neither is ignoring the problem and saying that it is perfectly okay to live in a state of anxiety, insecurity, and fear. This is what it sounds like Sunset is living in. It simply isn't healthy for her or her children.

It is okay to change. For example, its perfectly okay for an asexual to say, hey, I have discovered I like having sex after all. It's also okay for a sexual to say that they just aren't turned on anymore - that is an eventual part of life. But a change brought on by fear and anxiety is not positive and needs to be worked through.

From what her husband has described, Sunset isn't embracing asexuality. She's hiding behind it like a crutch. I don't support that type of hiding. I don't think anyone should. Instead, we should encourage that person to get help and be open to the possibility that she only became asexual to run away from problems. Obviously Sunset enjoyed being sexual; she preferred that over asexuality, and the fact that these memories have suddenly made her asexual is a sign that she isn't asexual at all - but rather someone who needs help and guidance.

[pickles.]

I see sexuality/asexuality as a continuum that can fluctuate over a person's lifetime. Some women are most interested in sex during their childbearing years, losing interest as time goes on. A woman could end up with a very low libido even if she has not experienced specific sexual trauma. I am a case in point. So it seems somewhat inaccurate to me to think of Sunset in stagnant categories ("was sexual, now is asexual, could be sexual again"). We are all an ebb and flow of our life experiences, expectations, reactions, motivations.

--T

[Placebo]

So, to return to the topic briefly (:lol:), I can see where the idea of asexuality must be confusing for therapists. Sometimes a patient really is asexual, but sometime's it's a defense. Treating all asexuals the same way is wrong. Therapists probably need to develop some sort of testing, or at least guidelines, to help determine when asexuality is someone's true nature and when it stands in the WAY of that person's true nature. My guess from talking to all of you is that, right now, therapists tend to assume all asexuality is a defense or physical dysfunction. But I think it's probably also wrong to say that NO asexuals need to heal. It's not as clear-cut as homosexuality in that sense.

What a fuzzy line. It will probably take a lot of work to determine some sort of guideline between "asexual" and "repressed sexual," if it can even be done.

Your posts are thought provoking because they make me reevaluate myself. . . and asexuality. . . and mental health. It seems (from what you've said) as though Sunset has changed from being much more tactile and emotionally close to much less over time. So that suggests that there's something there that needs to be healed. I'm curious at what point that line is drawn. I mean, there are very very tactile asexuals and very very non-tactile asexuals, including people with Asperger's. Also, you have people that want to be in relationships and people that don't. How are all of those things connected? Are they all separate and should be addressed separately? How much do they affect each other?

It makes me wonder: at what point does stuff need to be "fixed"? Only if it's caused by some emotional problems or trauma? How do you determine emotional problems or trauma? Only if the person is bothered by it? What if the significant other is bothered by it? How much of a say do they have in their significant other's mental health?

Also, it may be possible--and I'll have to take your's and Sunset's words on this--that Sunset could have always been asexual (or fairly hyposexual, or gray-A or whatever) but much more tactile (wanting to cuddle, to be emotionally close, whatever) and willing to compromise. So, if that were the case (I'm not saying that it is) does that mean that the asexuality should--or could--be fixed, or just the emotional closeness issue?

Or to use another example (me, because I know myself best ;) ), I have yet to want to be in a relationship (other than friendship). Is that because I'm asexual? Or is it because I'm a-relationship? Should I go to therapy to fix my lack of desire to participate in a relationship, or to fix asexuality? Are both of these just the way I've always been, or is one or the other or both caused by something else in my life? Should I only get myself "checked out" if I have a problem with it, even though I might miss out on activities that could (theoretically) make my life more fulfilled, like being in a serious relationship with someone else?

Sorry if all of this is off-topic, but I'm raising these questions because they make me wonder where the line is drawn, and how to draw the line.

Postscript: I'm not seriously saying that any of these things are wrong, I'm just raising them for consideration. And I'm really not going to go to therapy because I like myself the way that I am.

[Kafkaesque]

Maybe I'm one of this "false" asexuals. So here is another perspective.

I ask this, because I've been looking at Sunset for a long time now as if she were a "true" asexual, when she's not. She's a sexual person who's suppressing part of herself out of fear. She is happy keeping that fear at bay, not having the bad feelings that are associated with sex overwhelm her. At first I thought this was reasonable. But I'm beginning to question that, because I see how it's spread to other parts of her life. She's been "safe" from sexual advances for a long time now, but that's not safe enough. She has to keep people at arms length emotionally. The other night, when I was speaking admiringly about her, she asked me to stop because it was too much... it was making her feel threatened. If I get choked up talking about the love I feel for her, and the value I place on our relationship, she goes blank and, again, asks me to stop. Physical closeness too, is off-limits (with the notable exception of back scratches!)... no holding hands, no standing too close to her when we speak. It's not just sex, is my point.

-Chiaroscuro

This is not fear. This is the avoidance of fear. It is hurting too, but it' s nothing against the pain watiing for you, when you are more "open". And survival is much more important than happiness.

There have not been sexual abuse in my life. Just too much negligence and too less love and security when I was a baby. I don't have any memories on my first five years.(I was sick all the time). My life have started when I was six years old and I developed my strategies to survive. So I have thought that i a relative "normal" life. Bu t now I have perceived that there is not everything normal. I don't trust really anybody and there is no intimacy in my life.

My fear is part of my personality. The line "I must not fear" is not possible.

It is more "I must not avoid fear". Although it is a black hole wanting to swallow me, I will face it. And when my fear hits me and it's getting dark I have to stand it. And when I lose my footing, maybe there will be somebody with a torch catching my fall.

This week I have started a therapy. Not because I want to be sexual. But the lack of trust and intimacy is getting more and more annoying.

Maybe Sunset should work on the topics "trust" and "intimacy" too. The topic "sex"can wait. I think sex is based on trust and intimacy. And the abuse of her father have destroyed her trust.

[Chiaroscuro]

So many interesting thoughts... it's like an asexual chat buffet. Just a few comments that caught my eye:

Ghosts: I'd like to ask you something, just because I'm curious. I know someone who must be in her 30's or 40's now, and she's a lesbian. However, she was molested by her father repeatedly when she was a child. She feels that she is gay as a result of this experience. Do you think your question applies to her situation as well?

That's a valid question, and I don't really have the answer to it. If your friend feels her orientation is a result of the abuse, does the abuse affect other parts of her life? Does she fear men? Does she feel irrationally angry, or unable to relate to men at all? If she adopted a male son, would she be able to be intimate with him as he reached puberty? That's the thing with Sunset that I question... almost more than the sexual thing, which I understand. If the sexlessness solved everything, and the abuse didn't flow over into non-sexual parts of her life, then I'd say okay: asexuality is the answer. Good! But it isn't like that. She treats it like an answer, but it isn't. It's a defense... maybe a reasonable one, but it's still papering over a deeper wound that is poisoning other, non-sexual parts of her life. If that's true of your friend, if her lesbianism is less an orientation than a technique for avoiding terrible fears, then yes, I guess I'd say that lesbianism isn't THE answer. It's one avoidance technique among many (as it is for Sunset), all of which leave the fear and unhappiness underneath at arms length. Maybe that's Sunset's solution too. I don't know.

M51: Now, granted, when I got back up on the bars I had two coaches spotting me (ready to catch me if I fell), one of those big, two foot thick fluffy mats beneath me, and a whole crowd of friends cheering me on. And I was definitely scared. So I am not saying Sunset should just go and do it. Especially since her fear has had YEARS and DECADES to burrow deep into her psyche. It is not going to be easy. But it felt so good to not be afraid of that move anymore...to know I had conquered it.

That's a perfect analogy, Em. And it's something I'm afraid I've been doing badly... i've taken Sunset's asexuality as something complete and unchangeable (as she's said she thinks it is), and explored solutions outside of the relationship, and including divorce, which have probably made her feel like she didn't have any kind of big fluffy mat to catch her if she went into that dark place. It's the reason why I asked this question to begin with... maybe I've been making things worse by assuming that her assexuality is (sorry Ghosts), "true" asexuality. When I realized that, it made me sit back and look at the whole thing again from the ground up.

Funaladanaly: By no means is forcing sex upon one who doesn't want it the right answer, but neither is ignoring the problem and saying that it is perfectly okay to live in a state of anxiety, insecurity, and fear. This is what it sounds like Sunset is living in. It simply isn't healthy for her or her children.

Yes, this is the heart of the problem. I absolutely believe that asexuality, as an orientation, is valid and to be supported. But I'm starting to believe that asexuality can also be used to avoid unpleasant thoughts, and that my unquestioning support for Sunset's "asexuality" may be doing her a disservice.

Ms. Trish: So it seems somewhat inaccurate to me to think of Sunset in stagnant categories ("was sexual, now is asexual, could be sexual again"). We are all an ebb and flow of our life experiences, expectations, reactions, motivations.

Yes! Very true (*he says as an old man, feeling aches and pains that never used to be there*). And if this were just a question of sexuality, as I've been assuming it is for a long time now, then I wouldn't be here talking about it. But it's the fact that asexuality is just one aspect of Sunset's array of related issues, and that the others are increasing in their intensity that is making me think that maybe this isn't a good answer for her in the long run.

Placebo: Also, it may be possible--and I'll have to take your's and Sunset's words on this--that Sunset could have always been asexual (or fairly hyposexual, or gray-A or whatever) but much more tactile (wanting to cuddle, to be emotionally close, whatever) and willing to compromise. So, if that were the case (I'm not saying that it is) does that mean that the asexuality should--or could--be fixed, or just the emotional closeness issue?

This made me stop and think, because it doesn't describe Sunset as I see her at all. For her sex has always been much more emotionless than it has been for me. This is going way back. She liked the sex, but didn't put it and love in the same picture-frame (if that maks sense). She saw them as very disconnected... desire being a purely physical experience. She did always liked to embrace, hold hands, touch my arms, things like that. But not much with kissing, and never to the extent that I did. I came from a very huggy family, and that always made Sunset feel awkward. I think the emotional and sexual "split" in her is revealing.

For Sunset, sex can't be about love, because her father, who abused her, certainly couldn't have done it if he loved her. Sex for him, was not a loving act.

-Chiaroscuro

[vikingo]

... Sex for him, was not a loving act.

... or so we assume? What goes on in the minds of people can be difficult to clearly comprehend. I have not heard of a love detector, but if one exists it will probably rely on the same reaction patterns as a lie detector. My point is that we dont really know the psychologic scenery in the head of others that may influence their behaviour. The crime is the act where another human being is hurt.

[Chiaroscuro]

I have no idea what was going on in Sunset's father's mind when he abused her, but if he labeled it "love", then it isn't anything I'd recognize. I know what loving a child feels like, and hurting my child, betraying my child's trust, using my child to gratify my own hunger... none of that feels remotely like love to me.

And if I did those things to my kids, how would they see me? As a loving father? As someone they could trust? Someone who cared for them?

-Chiaroscuro

[M51]

Yeah, I think no matter what he was thinking, his actions did not make Sunset feel loved.

[vikingo]

No, it doesn't make people like e.g. me feel loved when people do things to me, especially people that I don't trust (anymore?) or things that I am not comfortable with.