Feeling confused and betrayed

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2 hours ago, TurnedTurtle said:

A couple possible shifts in perspective, using the travel example -- what is it actually about travel that you love? the destination or the journey to get there? I'm going to assume the destination, so what is it, exactly about travel destinations that you love? the food? the culture? the people? the ambiance? the landscapes? the architecture? the history? So once you've narrowed in on exactly the experience you are really seeking, then maybe you can re-define "travel" in a way that might be more achievable without having to endure the actual journey (i.e., achieve "travel" by bringing the essence of the destination to you rather than you having to go there).

 

This suggests trying to re-cast your thought processes more in terms of what you can do instead of being so focused on what you can't.  Yes, you have real limitations, I get it. But try concentrating on what you really want (being as specific as possible) and why you want it, independently of the "how" (which is bogging you down) -- then maybe you find creative ways to ultimately achieve your heart's true desires.

I think part of where I’m stuck also is that I don’t really see any good options here. Like no matter what, I lose. Maybe in some ways I can lose less painfully than others but I’m never going to have all my needs met. Hard to choose a path when none of them lead to where I want to go if that makes sense 

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4 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

Nope.  Tell her plain that you aren't doing that anymore.   See, mind-readering and guessing isn't communicating and letting your imagination invent her truth has got you spinning.  Make it simpler on yourself and stop doing that.   Tell her that from now on her word is her truth and you do the same.

I don’t think I could do that. It’s bad enough how much I’ve hurt her without meaning to, I couldn’t knowingly do something that would lead her to hurt herself. 

[Mountain House]

1 minute ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I don’t think I could do that.

You can.  She can too.  It will be very hard but honest plain communication will feel right in the end.  Also, managing someone else's emotional well-being doesn't work.  Let her deal with her feelings, you have enough of your own.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

8 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I don’t think I could do that. It’s bad enough how much I’ve hurt her without meaning to, I couldn’t knowingly do something that would lead her to hurt herself. 

Why do you say that it would lead to her hurting herself?

[TurnedTurtle]

5 hours ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I think part of where I’m stuck also is that I don’t really see any good options here. Like no matter what, I lose. Maybe in some ways I can lose less painfully than others but I’m never going to have all my needs met. Hard to choose a path when none of them lead to where I want to go if that makes sense 

Yes, it does make sense.  I am suggesting that one way to possibly, hopefully, get un-stuck, might be to -- for the moment -- not worry about choosing a path, and rather, simply re-examine your wants and needs (without the burden of the path -- let that go) to really focus in on the kernel, the core, the specifics of what it is that you truly need, to be clear with yourself on what that is and why you need that.

 

Myself, I want to have a full sexual relationship with my wife, but what I need is simply physical touch, even just small gestures of affection -- ultimately my need is to be able to express my love, and to feel loved.

 

As the Rolling Stones put it,

 

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need

 

I think Mountain House is on the money in that you could benefit by letting go of the construct you have built in your mind about yourself, your partner, and your relationship, and accept what your partner is telling you at face value -- let her be honest, and be honest yourself.

 

If an asexual person, someone who is not interested in sex, doesn't themselves inherently want sex, none-the-less willingly, voluntarily, without coercion, offers to have sex with you, they are not lying -- instead they are offering a gift, out of love. Accepting that gift does not constitute rape. You can accept, or not accept, the gift with grace. Either way, be gracious.

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8 hours ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Why do you say that it would lead to her hurting herself?

Because she forced herself to have sex with me for nine years despite it being traumatic for her the entire time? She doesn’t put her needs first, she’ll do whatever she thinks she needs to do to keep me happy. If I told her I would believe anything she told me then she would never tell me when anything was wrong again. 

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8 hours ago, Mountain House said:

You can.  She can too.  It will be very hard but honest plain communication will feel right in the end.  Also, managing someone else's emotional well-being doesn't work.  Let her deal with her feelings, you have enough of your own.

See that’s the thing though. I’ve always been honest and straightforward with her. At the very beginning of our relationship we sat down and had a talk and promised to be honest and communicate with each other. And ever since then, the longer we are together the more stuff I find out has been a problem for years and she never told me. I don’t want to have to play mystery solver all the time but she doesn’t give me a choice. She just smiles and says everything is fine until everything implodes like this. But again if I tell her I’m going to believe everything she says, that could very well be the death nail because she will never tell me anything again 

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1 hour ago, TurnedTurtle said:

Yes, it does make sense.  I am suggesting that one way to possibly, hopefully, get un-stuck, might be to -- for the moment -- not worry about choosing a path, and rather, simply re-examine your wants and needs (without the burden of the path -- let that go) to really focus in on the kernel, the core, the specifics of what it is that you truly need, to be clear with yourself on what that is and why you need that.

 

Myself, I want to have a full sexual relationship with my wife, but what I need is simply physical touch, even just small gestures of affection -- ultimately my need is to be able to express my love, and to feel loved.

 

As the Rolling Stones put it,

 

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You get what you need

 

I think Mountain House is on the money in that you could benefit by letting go of the construct you have built in your mind about yourself, your partner, and your relationship, and accept what your partner is telling you at face value -- let her be honest, and be honest yourself.

 

If an asexual person, someone who is not interested in sex, doesn't themselves inherently want sex, none-the-less willingly, voluntarily, without coercion, offers to have sex with you, they are not lying -- instead they are offering a gift, out of love. Accepting that gift does not constitute rape. You can accept, or not accept, the gift with grace. Either way, be gracious.

Yeah part of my problem is probably that I have never felt loved and I don’t really know what that feels like. I think sex was as close as I got. I don’t like a lot of physical contact, I get anxious and feel like I’m being trapped, but I could always handle sex. That and my complete and utter lack of a “true self” to base any decisions on. 
 

How can I know she isn’t lying though? She’d set herself on fire to keep someone else warm. Trusting her at her word is kind of what got us here in the first place. I don’t want to accept a gift that traumatizes the giver just because she was being polite. Even if I did, I couldn’t enjoy sex with someone I knew doesn’t want to be there, doesn’t find me attractive, and probably resents me for accepting. 

[TurnedTurtle]

15 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

How can I know she isn’t lying though? She’d set herself on fire to keep someone else warm. Trusting her at her word is kind of what got us here in the first place. I don’t want to accept a gift that traumatizes the giver just because she was being polite. Even if I did, I couldn’t enjoy sex with someone I knew doesn’t want to be there, doesn’t find me attractive, and probably resents me for accepting. 

I get it, I too don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex.  When we were exploring the  compromise, my wife never offered -- I would have to ask, hours in advance. If she agreed, I had to take her at her word that she was willing, and accept that this was a gift. In my case I've stopped asking, because overall the experience wasn't really working.

 

In your case, it sounds like your partner does offer. No, you don't have to accept the gift, but in so doing you can still be gracious and acknowledge and express appreciation for the offer of the gift, accepting and trusting that she is making the offer willingly, because she wants to give you the gift, even if she doesn't really want the sex itself. I really don't see this as lying. She is not intentionally trying to deceive you, and she's not just being polite, she's trying to offer you a gift. But to see it this way does require a change in your perspective...

 

[Mountain House]

57 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

How can I know she isn’t lying though?

You can't, and you can't read her mind, and you can't manage her feelings.

 

1 hour ago, ConfusedCripple said:

She’d set herself on fire to keep someone else warm.

And that is a problem to be conquered by her.  You may have to have the honest and plain talk every day for a month.  To it you could add:

 

I worry that you aren't considering your true self.   I am taking you at your word from now on and this is a work in progress.   Could you on occasion reaffirm the you are indeed considering your true self to help me as I conquer worry?

 

She needs to sit with the question of what she needs to have a happy fulfilled life too.  That's for her to solve,  not you.

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48 minutes ago, TurnedTurtle said:

I get it, I too don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex.  When we were exploring the  compromise, my wife never offered -- I would have to ask, hours in advance. If she agreed, I had to take her at her word that she was willing, and accept that this was a gift. In my case I've stopped asking, because overall the experience wasn't really working.

 

In your case, it sounds like your partner does offer. No, you don't have to accept the gift, but in so doing you can still be gracious and acknowledge and express appreciation for the offer of the gift, accepting and trusting that she is making the offer willingly, because she wants to give you the gift, even if she doesn't really want the sex itself. I really don't see this as lying. She is not intentionally trying to deceive you, and she's not just being polite, she's trying to offer you a gift. But to see it this way does require a change in your perspective...

 

She doesn’t offer anymore because I asked her to stop. I can’t see it as a gift because I know it’s traumatic for her. I have PTSD, I know what trauma and triggers feel like and I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. I’m certainly not going to accept it from her as an offer regardless of her intentions. 

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7 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

You can't, and you can't read her mind, and you can't manage her feelings.

 

And that is a problem to be conquered by her.  You may have to have the honest and plain talk every day for a month.  To it you could add:

 

I worry that you aren't considering your true self.   I am taking you at your word from now on and this is a work in progress.   Could you on occasion reaffirm the you are indeed considering your true self to help me as I conquer worry?

 

She needs to sit with the question of what she needs to have a happy fulfilled life too.  That's for her to solve,  not you.

But that would be taking advantage of her. She’ll tell me she’s fine and she doesn’t mind and she’ll swear it up and down until she has a meltdown and it’s my fault for not stopping it sooner. I’m supposed to just pretend not to notice or care while she’s spiraling because it’s not my responsibility, even though she’s spiraling specifically because of me?

[Mountain House]

I am not suggesting you take advantage of her and I'm not suggesting that you ignore body language.  Those are words too.  You could say:

Your body language is telling me that you are uncomfortable.   Can we talk because I am worrying that I could be misreading your message and that we are miscommunicating. *

 

If you feel that she isn't being true to herself then you use your words:

I feel worried that you aren't considering your true self.   Could you reaffirm that you are considering your true self to help me work out my worry feelings?

 

And as @TurnedTurtlesuggested, one can turn to grace here:

I am feeling uncomfortable with this situation right now.  I appreciate where we are but would like to hold off for now to think and work through my feelings.

 

 

* - I had this conversation with my wife once and the result was that she learned that her action wasn't something she wanted but rather something she believed a proper wife is supposed to do. 

[TurnedTurtle]

44 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I’m supposed to just pretend not to notice or care while she’s spiraling because it’s not my responsibility, even though she’s spiraling specifically because of me?

But she is not spiraling specifically because of you, it's due to her internal reactions. Yes, there may be an external stimulus (you, perhaps), but her reaction to that stimulus is on her -- that is ultimately her responsibility.

 

You clearly do care, and you can certainly choose to moderate or modify your behavior in an effort to be less of a stimulus, BUT:

 

(1) it is not your responsibility to do so

(2) if you do, recognize that you are doing so because you have made the choice to

(3) do not try to change to the detriment of your own true self

(4) try to make whatever changes you do choose to make from a perspective of positivity, rather than one of negativity

 

Has the concept of co-dependency been raised in this thread, I can't recall?  Both you and your partner might benefit from looking into that.

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33 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

I am not suggesting you take advantage of her and I'm not suggesting that you ignore body language.  Those are words too.  You could say:

Your body language is telling me that you are uncomfortable.   Can we talk because I am worrying that I could be misreading your message and that we are miscommunicating. *

 

If you feel that she isn't being true to herself then you use your words:

I feel worried that you aren't considering your true self.   Could you reaffirm that you are considering your true self to help me work out my worry feelings?

 

And as @TurnedTurtlesuggested, one can turn to grace here:

I am feeling uncomfortable with this situation right now.  I appreciate where we are but would like to hold off for now to think and work through my feelings.

 

 

* - I had this conversation with my wife once and the result was that she learned that her action wasn't something she wanted but rather something she believed a proper wife is supposed to do. 

I’ve tried all of this though. She doesn’t talk to me. She won’t tell me what’s wrong until I’m begging. As I said, from the very beginning I was always ready to communicate, being straightforward, asking her questions, leaving open lines of communication. She won’t take them. Like I said, if I tell her I’ll believe whatever she says she will go right back to how things were before and she will refuse to communicate with me about if because she’ll tell me she’s fine and I have to believe her even after I’ve questioned her body language and behavior. All I want out of life is communication and honesty, like that’s what I’ve been trying all this time but she shuts me down. 

[Sarah-Sylvia]

3 hours ago, ConfusedCripple said:

Because she forced herself to have sex with me for nine years despite it being traumatic for her the entire time? She doesn’t put her needs first, she’ll do whatever she thinks she needs to do to keep me happy. If I told her I would believe anything she told me then she would never tell me when anything was wrong again. 

I don't think that's true. And from her reactions, it seems you could be wrong about this. She didn't 'force' herself. She chose to do it.. Maybe she enjoyed the intimacy with you, or else. Asexuals can enjoy other aspects of sex even if they're not innately interested in it.
And like I mentioned early in the thread, she might have not known that she was asexual, and went along the program. This happens a lot. Realizing she's asexual is a great thing, and from then on, she hopefully can be truer to herself if she understand what it means to her. But she might even still choose to have sex if she wants to for other reasons.

People do a lot of things they dont have a whole lot of desire for. They can do it for other people, or to have a good time with other people, etc.
Anyway, unless she said that she forced herself, and that she suffered through it, I don't think it's right to assume it was traumatic to her.

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14 minutes ago, TurnedTurtle said:

But she is not spiraling specifically because of you, it's due to her internal reactions. Yes, there may be an external stimulus (you, perhaps), but her reaction to that stimulus is on her -- that is ultimately her responsibility.

 

You clearly do care, and you can certainly choose to moderate or modify your behavior in an effort to be less of a stimulus, BUT:

 

(1) it is not your responsibility to do so

(2) if you do, recognize that you are doing so because you have made the choice to

(3) do not try to change to the detriment of your own true self

(4) try to make whatever changes you do choose to make from a perspective of positivity, rather than one of negativity

 

Has the concept of co-dependency been raised in this thread, I can't recall?  Both you and your partner might benefit from looking into that.

Isn’t that kind of like saying it’s not a persons fault for shooting someone, it’s that person’s responsibility to take care of their own internal bleeding? If something I do hurts her and I know it and I continue to do it, even if she doesn’t complain, I’m still hurting her and it’s still my fault, isn’t it? 

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Just now, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I don't think that's true. And from her reactions, it seems you're wrong about this. She didn't 'force' herself. She chose to do it.. Maybe she enjoyed the intimacy with you, or else. Asexuals can enjoy other aspects of sex even if they're not innately interested in it.
And like I mentioned early in the thread, she might have not known that she was asexual, and went along the program. This happens a lot. Realizing she's asexual is a great thing, and from then on, she hopefully can be truer to herself if she understand what it means to her. But she might even still choose to have sex if she wants to for other reasons.

People do a lot of things they dont have a whole lot of desire for. They can do it for other people, or to have a good time with other people, etc.
Anyway, unless she said that she forced herself, and that she suffered through it, I don't think it's right to assume it was traumatic to her.

I’m not assuming, she told me it was traumatic for her. She literally dissociated through sex for potentially years because she couldn’t stand it. This isn’t me guessing, she has told me (after telling me that she thinks she might be ace) that she hates sex and finds it disgusting and would be happy to never have it again. 

[Sarah-Sylvia]

2 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I’m not assuming, she told me it was traumatic for her. She literally dissociated through sex for potentially years because she couldn’t stand it. This isn’t me guessing, she has told me (after telling me that she thinks she might be ace) that she hates sex and finds it disgusting and would be happy to never have it again. 

Ok, that does change things. Though it's possible she said it emotionally and it doesn't apply to all aspects of choosing sex.

Did she talk about why she chose to have sex in the cases she felt that way?

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1 minute ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Ok, that does change things. Though it's possible she said it emotionally and it doesn't apply to all aspects of choosing sex.

Did she talk about why she chose to have sex in the cases she felt that way?

Because she thought that’s what she was “supposed” to do and she didn’t want to upset me by telling me no. 

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Which I guess leads back to my original issue of how could she think that unless I’m some kind of abuser without being aware of it? It’s one thing to do something you don’t like very much for someone you love, it’s another thing entirely to torture yourself

on purpose because you don’t want them to get upset. How much worse was it when I got upset than having to do something she found so repulsive her brain shut off just so she could survive it? 

[Sarah-Sylvia]

Just now, ConfusedCripple said:

Because she thought that’s what she was “supposed” to do and she didn’t want to upset me by telling me no. 

That makes sense.

Well, one thing I can say, is that something like that has happened with others too, but then it's not about thinking the partner lies, but that they have trouble seeing what's important in themselves compared to the norms. I think it would be a time to encourage her to be herself, and that it's ok that she know or realize she didn't have to do it if it was a bad experience for her. That her feelings matter. That's a good way to promote more trust too.

Also, I apologize to you for thinking you were off about her reasons. I saw how it felt to you and thought it may have affected what you thought her reasons were. I shouldn't have assumed that.

[RalphEllison]

45 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

Because she thought that’s what she was “supposed” to do and she didn’t want to upset me by telling me no. 

It looks like you do a lot, or you withhold a lot because you don't want to upset her. That seems to be tying both of you in knots. 

[Mountain House]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I’m not assuming, she told me it was traumatic for her. She literally dissociated through sex for potentially years because she couldn’t stand it. This isn’t me guessing, she has told me (after telling me that she thinks she might be ace) that she hates sex and finds it disgusting and would be happy to never have it again.

Great!  Now all you have to do is take her word for it.

 

59 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

Because she thought that’s what she was “supposed” to do and she didn’t want to upset me by telling me no. 

And there you go, she has told you that she wasn't considering her true self.

 

56 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

how could she think that

There are many many ways this happens.  So many.  For my wife it was that she was literally told and it was reinforced by societal canon that she was broken and that this is what a good wife does.  Her breakthrough happened when I told her that she didn't have to have sex with me again and I would still love her.  I understand.  You are not broken and this is the authentic you.  It was very hard for her to get past the feeling broken.

 

I recently lightly suggested sex (which is as close as I have been able to get to initiating) and she said no.  Then she looked me in the eye as we hugged and said she knows things are getting better for her because she felt no guilt telling me no.  That made me so happy!  (and I told her so)

 

56 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

I think it would be a time to encourage her to be herself, and that it's ok that she know or realize she didn't have to do it if it was a bad experience for her. That her feelings matter. That's a good way to promote more trust too.

Felt like a good time to reiterate this.

 

And if it helps any, were I in a parallel conversation with your partner I would be telling her exactly the same things.  Cut and paste.  She needs to do all of this too and it won't be easy for her either.

 

Your relationship is in a transition and transitions are hard.

[Mountain House]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCripple said:

unless I’m some kind of abuser without being aware of it?

Oh, I meant to mention this.  You need to come to terms with this feeling you have about yourself.  Many of us here have experienced this.

 

Feelings are not facts.

 

This one is for you to conquer.

 

 

[EDIT]

 

Okay, I didn't feel good leaving that there like that.

 

Feelings come from our lizard brain and are there on purpose.  They are a warning that something isn't right.  For example, I am feeling freaked out and scared by that clump of grass.  On the surface it seems strange to be scared of a clump of grass.

 

You need to acknowledge your feelings and assess what they are trying to tell you - what does it mean.  Is there a lion ready to pounce?

 

Then you need to look over the situation to see if the message is a real threat.  Sometimes there is a lion and sometimes it's just the breeze.

 

Either way, the feeling protected you and did its job.  All feelings are proper and real and valid but they are not facts.

 

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19 minutes ago, RalphEllison said:

It looks like you do a lot, or you withhold a lot because you don't want to upset her. That seems to be tying both of you in knots. 

I don’t think it’s really the same thing? I have to plan talking to her about stuff ahead of time, make sure she’s having a good day and everything is fine and all that in the hopes that she will actually participate in the conversation, but at the end of the day I still want to be open and honest with her about what I’m feeling and she won’t do the same. 

[Sarah-Sylvia]

9 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I don’t think it’s really the same thing? I have to plan talking to her about stuff ahead of time, make sure she’s having a good day and everything is fine and all that in the hopes that she will actually participate in the conversation, but at the end of the day I still want to be open and honest with her about what I’m feeling and she won’t do the same. 

For some people, it can take more for them to share their feelings. The more you can make her feel comfortable that it's ok, it can help her feel more comforatble to share. You can still say that you want to know how she feels so that she's happy with things too. If she can understand that it's ok to share her feelings, she might open up more. Hopefully.

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36 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

Great!  Now all you have to do is take her word for it.

 

And there you go, she has told you that she wasn't considering her true self.

 

There are many many ways this happens.  So many.  For my wife it was that she was literally told and it was reinforced by societal canon that she was broken and that this is what a good wife does.  Her breakthrough happened when I told her that she didn't have to have sex with me again and I would still love her.  I understand.  You are not broken and this is the authentic you.  It was very hard for her to get past the feeling broken.

 

I recently lightly suggested sex (which is as close as I have been able to get to initiating) and she said no.  Then she looked me in the eye as we hugged and said she knows things are getting better for her because she felt no guilt telling me no.  That made me so happy!  (and I told her so)

 

Felt like a good time to reiterate this.

 

And if it helps any, were I in a parallel conversation with your partner I would be telling her exactly the same things.  Cut and paste.  She needs to do all of this too and it won't be easy for her either.

 

Your relationship is in a transition and transitions are hard.

Wait what? I have been taking her word for it, that’s why I’m not having sex with her anymore? It’s the everything after that, like her offering to have sex with me and saying everything is fine afterwards that I don’t trust. 
 

I know she doesn’t consider her true self, that’s the whole problem. She won’t. 
 

It feels like my relationship is transitioning without me. I don’t want any of this and now I’m being told I have to be okay with it and suddenly have to now reconsider my entire future and life and everything I’ve ever wanted or needed. I am still reeling and trying to figure out all this after losing my ability to walk, work, and take care of myself. How can I consider what I truly want when everything I want is being taken away from me? 

[Mountain House]

36 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I don’t think it’s really the same thing? I have to plan talking to her about stuff ahead of time, make sure she’s having a good day and everything is fine and all that in the hopes that she will actually participate in the conversation, but at the end of the day I still want to be open and honest with her about what I’m feeling and she won’t do the same. 

 

All of the stuff I've been writing is stuff I do believe.  I acknowledge that it is an ideal.  It is fair to also point out that some people simply can't, they are avoidant.  It is extra hard to overcome.  You could research attachment theory to learn more.

 

But the bottom line is that real honest communication needs to happen.  You start by embracing this on your end.  Be the change you desire.  If she just can't follow then you'll have to make a decision as to whether this is a relationship that fits your needs.

[Mountain House]

3 minutes ago, ConfusedCripple said:

I have been taking her word for it,

And that, as I pointed out earlier, is all you can do.