Why I hate pronouns

[Nerd Geek]

 

A lot of people at my work have started to put their preferred pronouns in their signatures and use them in their Zoom backgrounds and stuff. I kind of like the trend because it’s a nod to people who don’t fit the norms and validates their experience by allowing them to choose. It’s also helpful when people have unfamiliar names and you can't tell by just seeing the name and don't want to offend them, should the by offended by such things.  So generally, I like the trend and would like, in principal, to add some pronouns to my signature.

 

But I don’t know what to put.

 

I have female anatomy, but “she/her” has never really felt right to me. I always feel kind of weird whenever I have to refer to myself as “she”.

 

“He/him” definitely doesn’t feel right, although if I had male anatomy, it seems like this would be okay.

 

I don’t like “they/them” because I do not feel plural and dislike the awkwardness of speaking in the plural when referring to an individual.

 

I couldn’t use “it” because it carries a demeaning connotation when used to refer to a sentient being and not an inanimate object.

 

I believe there have been other attempts at inventing new gender-neutral pronouns to refer to people, like “ze/zir” that haven't really caught on. Haven't really looked into that much, for reasons that will be apparent later in my tirade.

 

Really, in public, I would feel uncomfortable using anything other than “she/her” because this entails some sort of declaration and an invitation to think about gender when thinking about me. My ultimate desire is to not have anyone think about gender at all when they think about me and just have it be a non-issue. Thus, I accept “she/her” since it is the default and is the least likely to draw attention to the subject, even though it still feels weird and sort of wrong. However, I have not added this to my signature because it feels weird.

 

I think if, as a young child, someone had presented me with a completely unbiased choice of pronouns in common use and asked me to pick the one that best described me, and there was a non-plural agendered one, I would have picked that one. As it was, I didn’t know it was an option because we weren’t talking about stuff like that back then. And even now it’s not really an easy option because if you pick something different than the default, it’s automatically “other”. I think it's wonderful that society is becoming more accepting of "other" and that people are talking about it more. However, I, personally, as an "other", find it more difficult and uncomfortable to have to talk about it at all than to simply let people refer to me as "she/her" and not make a big deal about it.

 

I guess I don't really hate pronouns that much. What I really dislike is gender itself. I don’t see why I should have to choose a gender at all rather than society’s understanding of gender morphing to encompass me and who I am. Rather than “I have a vagina and therefore must conform to society’s idea of female and the norms and expectations that go with it”, or "Regardless of my anatomy, I identify with feminine societal norms and am therefore female", why should it not be “I have a vagina and behave this way and likes these things, therefore the idea of female encompasses these things.” And then let “she/her” simply refer to me because I have a vagina.

 

But then…why should daily conversation need to make explicit reference to my anatomy anyway when it is irrelevant to the topic at hand? Ugh, I still hate pronouns.
 

Really interested to hear other people's thoughts on this, particularly those of you who do feel specifically gendered.

[Artemis42]

I relate to this in some ways. I think I've given up on finding pronouns I like better than she/her. Not because I love she/her but because they're the most convenient and I don't hate them (there are other pronoun sets I'm okay with but nothing feels 100% right all the time). Maybe in an ideal world there would just be one neutral pronoun set in English so we wouldn't have to deal with this stuff, or we wouldn't need pronouns at all gramatically speaking.

I have different thoughts on they/them pronouns to you though. I don't view them as exclusively plural, heck it's become quite common for people to use they/them to refer to others of unknown genders. To me, using they/them for specific individuals is just another use for them, and it can take a little getting used to in the beginning but after a while it starts feeling totally natural in my experience. You don't have to use they/them of course if you don't want to, but I thought I'd just share a different perspective on them.

[Nerd Geek]

Yeah, I feel perfectly comfortable using they/them to refer to a non-specific single individual, I guess because I'm used to it and it has become the norm. "If someone wants to use the pronoun <blah>, they should be allowed to." I guess if enough people start using "they" to refer to specific single individuals, I could get used to it, and maybe I would adopt it. But I don't think I'm cut out to be a pioneer in this area, haha.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

They/them has been used as a singular since the 13th century, you'll have used it as singular yourself and not even noticed ("my friend is awesome!" "Oh? What's their name?").

[ElloryJaye]

I've come to the conclusion that "they" is the least horrible pronoun for me, but it's still very bad and I have to make a conscious effort to use it in the singular about other people.  I certainly don't use it that way by accident.  (I'm of the generation that was taught to use "he" for a person of unknown gender, and early training is difficult to shake.)

[Guest]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:29 AM, Nerd Geek said:

A lot of people at my work have started to put their preferred pronouns in their signatures

I have noticed the trend, and really hate it. It is well intentioned, but makes one come across as pretentious without wanting to be, in my opinion. 

 

I never use gender to talk to a client, anyways. I use your first name. Most people I have seen in business, do so as well. Well, at least in western society.

 

I have learned early in business, that stereotyping a person based on their genitals, is a deadly mistake. 

 

IE assuming that since one is a woman, she will not know about power tools. I have seen tons of female mechanics. My partner is a "Jill of all trades".

 

Or, black male? You will want a booming system in your car, to pump your hip hop music.

 

Personally, it brings unnecessary attention to your signature. 

 

It just to me, is asking for conflict, by over complicating things. 

 

I used to hate being called n***a by my peers. Or "yo bro".

 

So would introduce myself, so they knew my name.

 

I hate the unlimited nature it seems of pronouns. It would instinctively make me not want to talk to a person, if they posted pronouns I didn't want to use, for me to address them.

[anisotrophic]

I know when I’ve seen pronouns in email sigs, it signaled to me that the person was “safe” for me to be more open about my non-binary trans identity. If you want to signal that, and stand by that, it’s not pretentious imho.
 

On the other hand, I was really unhappy being forced to say my pronouns at the start of a meeting. Bring attention to myself as the trans person in the room, or misgender myself! That’s not how I want to start my meetings! So ... when it turns into a thing where “everyone has to do it”, that is problematic too.

[GalaxyOwl]

I can relate to feeling weird about giving pronouns. I love the idea of it, but I also keep feeling like I’m lying whenever I write down she/her. Though this is probably just because I seem stuck in an eternal state of questioning whether that’s really right, not because they’re actually wrong, since I’m fine when other people use she/her for me. I do it anyway, though, because I want to make other people feel comfortable, and because I really love the idea of stating pronouns. It probably won’t work in your case, since you expressed that you don’t like the pronoun options rather than you just don’t like one of them, but it helps me feel less like I’m lying if I write she/they down. Mostly because the idea of writing down pronouns and the idea of they pronouns gets be excited enough that I don’t feel weird.

 

My point is, you’re not alone in the awkwardness of writing down pronouns. But I think it’s worth it if you can bring yourself to do it.

 

I know that some people don’t like anyone using pronouns for them at all, but that can also get grammatically messy. And from you not liking “they,” I think that might annoy you. But asking people not to use pronouns is valid as well.

 

And yeah, gender in general confuses me. I feel like I’m female by default. Weird metaphor, but I feel like for me, there’s a translucent piece of plastic that, having contributed nothing to my gender, sort of just leaves the determination to whatever’s under it. But gender is separate from physical sex, just often the same, so that doesn’t really make sense either.

 

And I’m rambling now. I hope something I said was helpful or at least added to the conversation.

[Zagadka]

Pronouns can have the unintended effect of forcing you into a role... I usually leave them out unless specifically asked or it is likely to come up, and I personally don't mind they/them as a "plural", and it is definitely more comfortable than he or she and I don't feel like explaining other pronouns to people. You really don't have to list any pronouns, but then people will just... guess... which is up to you. I never bother to correct people, in life or online. They all bother me kinda equally. I don't identify with any gender... I'd rather really just not be noticed. I'd just prefer they/them than misgenders, so... *shrug*

[verily-forsooth-egads]

You're under no obligation to contribute to the normalization of pronouns! Cis allies made the bed, and you, a person with a nontraditional relationship with gender, get to lie in it. Do whatever makes you comfortable, and anyone who pressures you otherwise can stuff it.

[a little annihilation]

I relate to this a lot. I've chosen they/ them because I'm not really comfortable being referred to as she/ her and associated with female things, but I haven't told anyone this because it would be a thing and I don't want to draw attention to myself like that, and I'm not really 100% comfortable with they/ them either, but they're the closest I can get because I really just hate being referred to in general, and I don't want gender to be associated with me at all because I don't think it matters and I feel completely genderless; I want to be able to favour aesthetic beauty and identify with it without it being attached femininity 

[Pandark]

On 4/8/2021 at 12:29 AM, Nerd Geek said:

I couldn’t use “it” because it carries a demeaning connotation when used to refer to a sentient being and not an inanimate object.

In Dutch I've heard people refer to themselves as the equivalent of "it". I don't feel it's limited to non-sentience. We simply assume that gender is a known factor. When it isn't like with a baby, one may ask "what's it's name?" or "is it a boy or a girl?" and it would by no means be dehumanizing.

 

I feel that in English language "it" has gotten a dehumanizing association through popular culture, movies like The silence of the lambs (the infamous quote "it puts the lotion in the basket") or It, the evil clown.

 

The plurals "they/them" are gendered in some languages, so aren't always an alternative. I find it a bit cringe how different languages are progressing into opposing directions and to me it feels like cultures are further differentiating rather than uniting. English language sets the tone in many of the debates, since it's a language we all speak, but the debate can be estranging from other cultural perspectives.

[Guest]

On 4/10/2021 at 9:44 AM, anisotrophic said:

I know when I’ve seen pronouns in email sigs, it signaled to me that the person was “safe” for me to be more open about my non-binary trans identity. If you want to signal that, and stand by that, it’s not pretentious imho.

Thats one of the dangers. Assuming since I don't put my pronouns, that I won't show you the same respect. 

 

You know, VS encouraging an environment that is pro-LGBTQ. 

 

Also, I stated it comes across as pretentious. Doesn't mean that it is, as the intent behind it clearly is not. 

 

I see it like someone ripping me a new one, for calling them say, Michael because their name is on their order and they rudely correct me they their title is Dr. 

 

I have had this happen before. 

 

I was lectured for 5 minutes straight, as to why they didn't go to high ranking universities to acquire a title, to be insulted by me calling them by their first name. 

 

I apologized, and called them doctor, but they weren't having it. Didn't matter that Michael was written on their order. I should have known. 

 

I just let them air out their grievances and get it off their chest, knowing they would run out of energy eventually, and then do business. 

 

I learned my lesson then, but to assume one won't be educated enough to give you the same level of respect?

 

It reminds me of a video I saw of an irate trans woman, belittling a clerk for accidentally calling her sir, clearly afraid of the towering client threatening bodily harm onto them. 

 

Many unfortunately so, will think of people like that, when they see titles. These are sadly the ones making it to the mainstream. 

 

I don't know. If I have to put a title in my signature for someone to know I will treat them with respect, the world has gone to s*** in my opinion. 

[verily-forsooth-egads]

On 4/11/2021 at 8:36 AM, Perspektiv said:

It reminds me of a video I saw of an irate trans woman, belittling a clerk for accidentally calling him sir,

Sorry, what gender was the customer? You contradicted yourself there. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, verily-forsooth-egads said:

You contradicted yourself there. 

How so? 

[ElloryJaye]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

How so? 

If the person is a transwoman, the pronoun should be "her", not "him".

 

It's unfortunate that there's no generally accepted gender-neutral replacement for sir/ma'am (I'm sometimes tempted to suggest "honoured customer", but people would probably complain that it has too many syllables).

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, ElloryJaye said:

If the person is a transwoman, the pronoun should be "her", not "him".

 

It's unfortunate that there's no generally accepted gender-neutral replacement for sir/ma'am (I'm sometimes tempted to suggest "honoured customer", but people would probably complain that it has too many syllables).

Whoops. I have corrected the post. Thanks for pointing it out. 

 

I mean, I have accidentally misgendered a woman before, and genuinely meant no harm. She had a deep voice on the phone. 

 

Fortunately her correction was polite, and she saw my genuine embarrassment and immediate correction, meant I just made an honest mistake. 

 

I think being overkill strict on the laundry list of pronouns that go beyond the basics, will create far more confusion than it will help.

 

I am not talking she, he or the common ones. 

 

Am talking, xir, Latinx and the like. I think it risks creating more division, in that I would be called transphobic for refusing to use the latter. That doesn't even make sense.

 

I see it as me calling a white person racist, for refusing to kneel to me for attrocities of the past.

 

I don't know  I hate pronouns too, and have yet to hear a solid argument about their use.

[ElloryJaye]

We're at the teething problems/growing pains stage with a lot of this stuff right now.  It'll settle down in a few more decades.  Which is of little help to people right now who are trying to Do The Right Thing while not always sure what the Right Thing is, or trying to balance competing needs (get crap from your boss for not calling the customer sir/ma'am or from enby, trans and gender non-conforming customers for accidentally or mistakenly misgendering them—which do you prefer?)

 

Latinx is a bit of an odd case in English, though, since it's due to the word's language of origin having masc/fem gendering for nouns and having that gender persist into English, which is uncommon these days.  (I've also occasionally seen Latin@ as an attempt to bring together "Latino" and "Latina", but that does weird things to the poorly-designed email-address filters on some webpages.)

 

[meggles]

Relatable! I don't "feel" like a girl, I have always been a "tomboy," and on the rare occasion someone doesn't see my hips and apologizes profusely for calling me sir, I become baffled at why gender is such a big deal to how people see themselves. (Let me clarify, I understand that it IS a big deal to most people, so I respect their identities). I don't understand why we can't just use gender neutral pronouns for everyone. In general, I don't use she or he as pronouns unless I'm talking about someone who isn't present. When I took Spanish classes, I'd instinctively switch between masculine and feminine adjectives when describing myself, but my teacher would say, "no! You have to say you're girl tall and girl smart and you have girl blond hair" (not exactly those words, but it felt like that's what my teacher was saying!) I can only imagine how much more frustrating pronouns might be for speakers of languages with gendered words.

[A User]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:36 AM, Perspektiv said:

It reminds me of a video I saw of an irate trans woman, belittling a clerk for accidentally calling her sir, clearly afraid of the towering client threatening bodily harm onto them. 

oh I think I saw that one too

it was awhile back, but I think ik what you mean by it

 

I think it's this one

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8074185/transgender-woman-threat-shop-worker-sir-madam/

[meggles]

On 4/11/2021 at 9:36 AM, Perspektiv said:

I see it like someone ripping me a new one, for calling them say, Michael because their name is on their order and they rudely correct me they their title is Dr. 

 

I have had this happen before. 

 

I was lectured for 5 minutes straight, as to why they didn't go to high ranking universities to acquire a title, to be insulted by me calling them by their first name. 

 

I apologized, and called them doctor, but they weren't having it. Didn't matter that Michael was written on their order. I should have known.  

I had a similar experience meeting my friend's dad. "Hi, Mr. Lastname" was met with, "it's DOCTOR Lastname!!!" and a lecture about how important that title was.

 

Similarly had folks go off on me for misgendering them while working as a cashier... sometimes you need to use pronouns to refer to customers. I don't have time to ask everyone their pronouns as they wait in line (and that would be a bizarre thing to do) so if I misgender someone in this scenario, despite attempting to de-pronoun my language, it wasn't meant as a personal insult to the person with whom I used an incorrect pronoun... though I've had a couple folks go off on me.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, A User said:

oh I think I saw that one too

it was awhile back, but I think ik what you mean by it

 

I think it's this one

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8074185/transgender-woman-threat-shop-worker-sir-madam/

Thats the one. Its sad, as that trans woman set back trans people in the public eye, quite a few years.

 

I have seen so many memes, and jokes about her.

 

She would have been better off being polite, to have an actual case vs charges being pressed. I would press heavy handed ones out of principle. 

 

I would have been calm knowing I have them on camera.

 

2 hours ago, meggles said:

though I've had a couple folks go off on me.

To me, the extreme pronouns are far more divisive than being a thing that could bring together.

 

Its like that ma'am video. 

 

She has put her gender on the map, for all the wrong reasons. 

 

Her being tactful and classy? That shop owner comes under fire for being transphobic.

 

A few death threats or threats of bodily harm, plus destroying the store front?

 

She becomes a joke. A caricature.

 

I hate pronouns, as they open the door for exchanges like that, and just utter confusion.

[DemonicEnby]

Pronouns are troubling as they do change the perception and expectations of the people you are talking to. 

 

I myself am not really troubled by being called "she", purely biologically viewed I am female, hormones, primary and secondary sexual characteristics and all, but I equally don't mind being called a "he" or "one of the guys" so to speak. 

 

In English I prefer they/them, but what I really celebrated is the Finnish "hän". It is gender neutral and has been around since before the first (documented) Finnish book (1543). It's used for "he/she/it" alike and if I could start a trend then it would be the use of that. 

 

Similarly - at least in my opinion - do seem the Japanese honorifics to matter little in regards to gender, which is equally fascinating. Usage of kun and chan alike is applied regardless to gender, as the age and affection behind seem to be more important. 

 

German on the other hand seems terrible with pronouns, as either new words are tried to be created and either end up sounding terrible or demeaning. The same applies to already existing pronouns. 

 

On the other hand it is equally terrible to let oneself be that bothered by it. So people misgender, but going of the rails doesn't help change perception it's just harmful and hurting everyone for the wrong reasons. While growing up I learned that being polite and arguing with facts is the better way to handle things and to ignore idiots who are just set in their way of thinking. And to ignore being called crazy, mentally ill or just any other type of wrong. 

 

Though I have to admit that I am blessed with few but incredibly accepting and supporting friends and chosen family, so I did not face a lot of condemnation or some such. 

[Forest Spirit]

15 hours ago, meggles said:

When I took Spanish classes, I'd instinctively switch between masculine and feminine adjectives when describing myself,

😅 still do that in Italian, just keep forgetting that the endings of adjectives and some verbs (in past tense) change according to who the speaker is. German doesn't do that even though it has three grammatical genders, not just two. And yes my Italian teacher also always reminded me of it

 

For me personally, pronouns are just an aspect of language meant to make communication easier as they're literally just standing in place of nouns so that you don't have to repeat the noun (or name) every time. The extreme focus on pronouns now has made me dislike them though and I wish we could settle on one neutral one in each language (that doesn't sound out of place) and move on. We're all humans underneath, pronouns shouldn't change that.

Then again I don't identify with the concept of gender at all so... you know... life is complicated

[Guest]

19 hours ago, ElloryJaye said:

Latinx is a bit of an odd case in English

I have yet to encounter a single person who identifies as Latino or Latina, wanting to add the X at the end. 

 

I just don't see it catching on. 

 

Especially not in any country south of North America, where Spanish is the predominantly spoken language. 

[Rynn]

@Nerd Geek You don't have to put pronouns if you don't want to. It's okay not wanting to draw attention to it. And yeah I'm with you, I wish there was a better non-gendered pronoun in English. They/them is still pretty awkward.

 

 

On 4/11/2021 at 12:33 PM, Pandark said:

In Dutch I've heard people refer to themselves as the equivalent of "it". I don't feel it's limited to non-sentience. We simply assume that gender is a known factor. When it isn't like with a baby, one may ask "what's it's name?" or "is it a boy or a girl?" and it would by no means be dehumanizing.

Wait what? It? When? How?

Sure you can use 'it' like 'is it a boy or a girl' 'Is het een jongen of een meisje' but not like 'what's its name' 'wat is het's naam?' As a native speaker, I don't think Dutch works like that. I can't figure out what sentence structure you had in mind in which you could use 'het' there. Can you write it down in Dutch please? I'm a language nerd, I want to know  

 

My Dutch enby friends either use binary pronouns opposite to the ones they were assigned, multiple pronouns, or they use 'die/ie' and 'hen'.

(Oh Ryn? Ja die was gister naar de dokter. De doktor vertelde hen dat ie ziek was. Dat vertelde die toen aan hun moeder en hun moeder zei "ja duh je ziet groen schat." Echt een dombo haha.)

 

23 hours ago, ElloryJaye said:

Latinx is a bit of an odd case in English, though, since it's due to the word's language of origin having masc/fem gendering for nouns and having that gender persist into English, which is uncommon these days.  (I've also occasionally seen Latin@ as an attempt to bring together "Latino" and "Latina", but that does weird things to the poorly-designed email-address filters on some webpages.)

I've heard that it's been changed to 'latine'. All gendered adjectives would then also end in 'e' instead of 'o' or 'a'.

 

16 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Thats the one. Its sad, as that trans woman set back trans people in the public eye, quite a few years.

 

I have seen so many memes, and jokes about her.

 

She would have been better off being polite, to have an actual case vs charges being pressed. I would press heavy handed ones out of principle. 

I really wish one trans person having a bad day and lashing out wouldn't have to reflect poorly on all trans people. If we made memes out of all of the times cis people flew off the handle and then generalized that to all cis people, y'all would have no societal respect left.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rynn said:

If we made memes out of all of the times cis people flew off the handle and then generalized that to all cis people, y'all would have no societal respect left.

As a black person, I have seen so many instances of our race being set back, by morons in highly powerful and influential positions, getting to speak for us. 

 

Every time I see black people looting, I face palm, knowing I will get asked at least once about "my people".

 

Some will already pull judgment or have prejudice, so she just added to it by making herself the center of attention.

 

Her forcefully demanding her pronouns to be respected, which the clerk did after an apology, quickly made her the butt of jokes, globally.

 

I recently talked to some people who rolled their eyes at a workplace doling out pronouns to be used:

 

"Its ma'am!" *in a deep voice*, someone in the crowd uttered.

 

Everyone burst out laughing.

 

Its sad, because just like Apu from the Simpsons, its made a form of racism or prejudice okay.

 

Welcome to being a marginalized minority (unfortunately).

 

I fully agree with you on the fact it *shouldn't* be this way, but a rash of murders in my city will have people on edge anytime I am near them.

 

I literally look like all the police descriptions, so have to speak for those criminals, walking into a gas station at night, now with a mask on.

 

"Suspect was tall, black, clean shaven, had a hat and jeans and t-shirt on, and was seen responding to "hey brother!"

[Morays]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I have yet to encounter a single person who identifies as Latino or Latina, wanting to add the X at the end.

 

1 hour ago, Rynn said:

I've heard that it's been changed to 'latine'. All gendered adjectives would then also end in 'e' instead of 'o' or 'a'.

For what it's worth, Terry Blas made an excellent comic about the problems with "Latinx," why it doesn't make much sense in the context of Spanish, and discusses what makes "Latine" a better alternative.

[Pandark]

2 hours ago, Rynn said:

Wait what? It? When? How?

Sure you can use 'it' like 'is it a boy or a girl' 'Is het een jongen of een meisje' but not like 'what's its name' 'wat is het's naam?' As a native speaker, I don't think Dutch works like that. I can't figure out what sentence structure you had in mind in which you could use 'het' there. Can you write it down in Dutch please? I'm a language nerd, I want to know  

 

Mostly "het" in place of "hij"/"zij". Guess the possessive pronouns are still mostly used plural "hun", optionally "van het" instead of "van hen". Most people care less about correct use of language than I do, but I will call people what they want me to call them whether singular or plural. Just please don't bother me with neopronouns, I have plenty of reasons to avoid human interaction already. 😜

 

2 hours ago, Rynn said:

My Dutch enby friends either use binary pronouns opposite to the ones they were assigned, multiple pronouns, or they use 'die/ie' and 'hen'.

(Oh Ryn? Ja die was gister naar de dokter. De doktor vertelde hen dat ie ziek was. Dat vertelde die toen aan hun moeder en hun moeder zei "ja duh je ziet groen schat." Echt een dombo haha.)

That sounds fine for everyday talk, but for more formal situations that's not going to work. 'ie is nicely casual though.

[Rynn]

7 minutes ago, Pandark said:

Mostly "het" in place of "hij"/"zij".

So literally just 'Het was gister naar de dokter. De dokter vertelde het dat het ziek was. Dat vertelde het toen aan de moeder van het en toen zei de moeder van het 'ja duh, je ziet groen schat'.

 

I dunno mate, in my opinion, that does not work at all. Definitely sounds at least as dehumanizing as 'it' in English, and the possessive form 'van het' is very clunky. I'm going to stick with 'die' and 'hen', which are neopronouns by the way. I suppose they are less unconventional than other neopronouns.

 

Also yeah no genderneutral pronouns are going to sound acceptable for formal situations in Dutch for a while. At least not until they're normalized. It is what it is.