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The Deadly Choice


Chiaroscuro

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Actually there's a fourth. Have an affair openly and leave the decision to her. If it comes to the crunch she might decide not to leave you.

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Thank you VERY much for this thread.

I have read this thread from the very beginning, and it was a part in my decision to finally break it off with my boyfriend. We were getting fairly serious, and were talking about marriage. The thing is, when I say fairly serious, I mean in every single way except for physical. I loathe everything physical - from handholding to kissing to cuddling.

It was because of this thread here and others like it, and by reading what was going on with current married couples between sexuals and asexuals that I realized, my relationship may work for awhile, but not in the long term. As much as neither of us would want it, trouble would brew.

When I talked to my now ex the other day, I actually brought up a point here. When he said that he'd be happy with just once a month, I said, "would you really, if I wasn't truly receptive of it?" I was thinking about what you had said about feeling like sleeping someone who didn't want it for any other reason than to make you happy would almost feel like rape. I figured, you know, I could see him feeling that way and feeling guilty. Then I would feel guilty.

In the end, after reading this thread and others similiar about currently married couples, I realized that its better to get out of the relationship now before we do get married and have children, and things get much more complicated.

So, thank you for writing your thoughts. They really helped guide me in my decisions.

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A great thing about AVEN is that by bringing asexuality to the public awareness it helps people make more informed desicions about the future prospects of relationships, and a greater chance to find someone they would be compatible with in the long term. Too many people go into relationships hoping things will change for the better, especially if they don't understand what's happening.

I'm sure 100 years ago many gay/lesbian people entered straight relationships, not really understanding themselves or realizing they might have other choices. Perhaps in 100 years asexual people will find suitable parners as easily as gay people do today, and straight people won't find themselves in relationships that have greater difficulty working than most.

There are successful sexual/asexual couples on this board I believe, so I can't get too categorical about this. However, nearly every long term relationship needs all the help it can get.

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I'll jump in this now.

As an asexual, I've been thinking about this very decision. So far I can't offer it for two reasons.

1) I don't know how I'll react. I realise sex means little to me, but it is also my understanding that most sexuals get very emotionally involved in sex. So while I don't think I would mind him having sex elsewhere, I don't know if I would be jealous of the emotional bond that might form.

2) Raised Christian, I see this as breaking the marriage vows, and am afraid he would actually find someone else. Which may happen anyway, and just prove that we couldn't make it work anyother way. This just doesn't come out right in print.

I guess I'm thinking we haven't tried everything else yet, but we've only been married 2+ years. We're both rather stubborn and prideful about our marriage vows, "till death do you part" but there's more to it now.

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Hi Ironwulf,

Thank you for saying your piece. I know how hard it is on the asexual side of the fence. I see my wife wrestling with it... it's difficult to know what the right thing to do is. My one piece of advice is, get the situation stable before you have children (if that's something you're planning on doing). Everything becomes more difficult once your personal needs begin to conflict with your mission as a parent.

I went to a Polyamory discussion group with my situation (here's the link http://community.livejournal.com/polyamory/1976205.html), and their reactions opened my eyes. Jealousy isn't rational, and love isn't rational. They're not things that can be controlled by rational decisions (other than the rational decision not to put yourself in vulnerable situations). Still, for me, if the choice is between divorce and trying an outside relationship, my gut tells me to go for the outside relationship, because divorce is surrender. On the other hand, one of the polyamory folks suggested that an amicable split is far better than one that's been poisoned by jealousy and betrayal. Hard to argue with that.

As for the question of Christian wedding vows... my therapist reminded me that, in the catholic church, not sleeping with your spouse is considered a breaking of wedding vows and grounds for divorce. My feeling is that vows are all well and good, but you can't live off of vows. If your husband was abusing you, would your vows keep you safe? I do understand wanting to be fair and responsible. For me, there's an element of pride that would be broken if I admitted defeat and divorced. I would feel like a failure. But that's pride... not something to be proud of.

Good luck. I wish you well. It's good of you to think of your spouse's needs in this. I hope he's extending you the same courtesy.

-Chiaroscuro

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Jealousy isn't rational, and love isn't rational. They're not things that can be controlled by rational decisions (other than the rational decision not to put yourself in vulnerable situations). Still, for me, if the choice is between divorce and trying an outside relationship, my gut tells me to go for the outside relationship, because divorce is surrender. On the other hand, one of the polyamory folks suggested that an amicable split is far better than one that's been poisoned by jealousy and betrayal. Hard to argue with that.

For me, there's an element of pride that would be broken if I admitted defeat and divorced. I would feel like a failure. But that's pride... not something to be proud of.

-Chiaroscuro

I completely agree with you here. Hurt pride if I leave, but better that than poisoned friendship. And no, emotions aren't rational, I don't think any are, but especially love, jealousy, hate. Plus he and I are both prideful about the vows. If there was actual abuse it would be an easy decision for me.

The other thing my husband has mentioned is donating his testicles for science and to decrease his libido, thinking testosterone is what causes sexual desire. To my knowledge, I don't have low levels, even when off birth control(my acne says otherwise) But I don't think this is THE answer either. If he did it, and it didn't work I'd feel guilty that he did it for me, and if after that we did separate, I'd feel that any future problems would also be my fault.

It's a rock and a hard place, and neither work.

Good luck to you too.

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The other thing my husband has mentioned is donating his testicles for science and to decrease his libido, thinking testosterone is what causes sexual desire. To my knowledge, I don't have low levels, even when off birth control(my acne says otherwise) But I don't think this is THE answer either. If he did it, and it didn't work I'd feel guilty that he did it for me, and if after that we did separate, I'd feel that any future problems would also be my fault.

Yow! Your husband's gesture strikes me as possibly offered for dramatic effect... and I think your instincts are right. That's nothing you have any business asking of your partner (making himself something other than what he is), any more that its his business to ask you to become sexual if that's not what you are. I know you didn't ask it of him, I'm just saying...

My wife and some Avenites have suggested that I take drugs that will suppress my sexuality, but I'm not interested in becoming "less" of a person just to solve a problem. Even a problem as big as this one. I know I would resent it. I already resent having had a vasectomy after my second child was born. Why exactly did I have that done, if we're both going to be celibate?

-Chiaroscuro

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I already resent having had a vasectomy after my second child was born. Why exactly did I have that done, if we're both going to be celibate?

That is a very good point. I can understand why the women as the men to have the birth control operation done considering that it is a lot less invasive procedure. However, it definitely is not right to agree to the vasectomy only to have to become celibate.

The reason why my bf and I broke up before he proposed to me (and he was going to from what he said) was because I didn't want to have sex with him. We both agreed it wasn't fair for me to have sex if I didn't want to, and it wasn't fair to him to have to withhold sex in a marriage. Therefore, we broke it off.

To go into a marriage as a sexual person and then to suddenly change your mind doesn't seem right. However, there is also the possibility that maybe it is more than these memories and she's starting to go through menopause. If that is the case, well, its only natural for her to not to want to have sex.

This is tough. I'm not sure what people should do if one sex drive suddenly changes. No matter what happens, someone is going to be hurt.

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To go into a marriage as a sexual person and then to suddenly change your mind doesn't seem right. However, there is also the possibility that maybe it is more than these memories and she's starting to go through menopause. If that is the case, well, its only natural for her to not to want to have sex.

Hi Fun,

Sorry i didn't reply to your earlier post... somehow I skipped past it. I'm glad you were able to resolve your mixed relationship before it got all tangled up with marriage and children (though the "resolution" involved breaking up, which is sad, i know). I wish that Sunset and I had understood what was going on when we were courting. Hopefully as new generations reach marrying age, asexuality won't be such a 10-letter word, and couples can be clearer about their needs up front.

That said, Sunset was not asexual when we got married. She had issues around sex, our expectations were different, but we both assumed that we could negotiate some sort of common ground in the bedroom. We didn't see it a deal-breaker. It's only in the last five years that it HAS become a deal-breaker. It's true that menopause could be a factor, but it's not just a disinterest in sex, it's all sorts of flashback stuff... and it's not simple disinterest either, she has a violent aversion to most things sexual.

I thoroughly understand why that happened, and I sympathize with Sunset's position. It does leave me in a dilemma though... how do I preserve my identity as a sexual man while staying in a non-sexual marriage? I love Sunset dearly, but a big part of me wishes we'd been able to sense this disconnect earlier, when it was easier to act on it (for both our sakes, this situation's difficult for everyone involved).

-Chiaroscuro

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Thank you VERY much for this thread.

It was because of this thread here and others like it, and by reading what was going on with current married couples between sexuals and asexuals that I realized, my relationship may work for awhile, but not in the long term. As much as neither of us would want it, trouble would brew.

Very tough decision, but I (sexual married to an asexual) truly believe you did the right thing. If I had understood that it was not just a temporary problem of my husband or if it was not temporary that he was not at least keen to move hell to "fix it" or be sexually active in whatever ways possible - I had no clue about the existence of asexuality - I would not have married him. Maybe I wouldn't have had the courage to quit right away but certainly not confirm things/get married.

Not that I like him any less, but his asexuality over time had its effects on our closeness, and he's slowly changed roles from husband to being a very very close "friend only". Leaving a void for that special person with whom I share emotional AND physical closeness.

My husband wouldn't mind me having sex with someone else. But being asexual for him it's just that I meet the physical need. He doesn't - probably cannot - understand that it's a lot more for me. He'd kind of move to second place - well, in fact he has already vacated the first place leaving a void there. Which I didn't like but which I couldn't do anything against.

Like Chiaroscuro I would find it extremely difficult to divorce, but life without sex - and my husband is one of those 100% uncompromising and it appears by now also physically impotent - and by that I mean a very close, great relationship with someone with whom I enjoy emotional and physical closeness, is a poorer place.

Almost 9 years without any sex at all, and several years before of barely any sex leave me without any hope for change on my husband's part, therefore it is a matter of meeting or not, another SO, and then how it would change the situation with possibly divorce or ....

I'd hate to divorce, but should I meet a suitable person, the cost for not trying a new life, whatever that means for my marriage, would almost exclusively be paid by me.

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Sunset thinks sex for me is about ego and fantasy... that I want someone to desire me in some grandiose way... to put me up on a pedestal. That's not true, but she can't "feel" that it's not true, and feelings are what are in play with all of this.

-Chiaroscuro

Yes, Chiaroscuro!

My significant other ( we are also wrestling with "labels" ) does not understand desire, and so thinks that it somehow means I want to be worshiped in some way-he can't see that "desire," in the way that I see it, is all bound up in feeling loved, connected and necessary.

He has told me that it isn't fair to me to be tortured ( not an overstatement ) by my needs and his inability to meet them, and that perhaps I should stay with him, but feel free to leave if I meet someone else that is "what I need." Yet jealousy reared up when I went out with some friends...

Our relationship is not sexless, and from everything I've read here, I guess I should be "grateful" that he is willing to compromise-it seems that most will not-but he derives nothing from these strange sexual encounters. And "grateful" is not an emotion I want to feel after sex.

Nor do I want to feel responsible for someone having "compromised" their true feelings about sex. ( or anything else for that matter )

It is like masturbation, but with another person involved.

He thinks I just need the physical release-doesn't understand all the ineffable intangibles involved-so while I'm lying there afterwards emoting, he is probably making a grocery list in his head.

He doesn't mind kissing, or holding, but again-what does it mean to him?

You know, I'm a writer, and I have never experienced such a failure of the language as I have in trying to talk about these issues.

It's like trying to tell someone how to tie a shoelace using only words-

but I guess even that would work if the person knew what a shoelace was....

confused as hell-outlook bleak... :roll: :shock:

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My significant other ( we are also wrestling with "labels" ) does not understand desire, and so thinks that it somehow means I want to be worshiped in some way-he can't see that "desire," in the way that I see it, is all bound up in feeling loved, connected and necessary.

Yes indeed.

He has told me that it isn't fair to me to be tortured ( not an overstatement ) by my needs and his inability to meet them, and that perhaps I should stay with him, but feel free to leave if I meet someone else that is "what I need." Yet jealousy reared up when I went out with some friends...

I have experienced this many times with my wife, Heinlein. I think, in the heat of the fighting, it was easy for her to release herself from responsibility by saying "get sex elsewhere". That's all it was, though, at least in my case. When I DID go elsewhere, it was very clearly not okay. That's when the divorce talk started, which, in its own way, served the same function as the "get sex elsewhere" line... it ended any sort of problem-solving, and put all of the weight of solving the issue onto my shoulders. The ultimate damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Our relationship is not sexless, and from everything I've read here, I guess I should be "grateful" that he is willing to compromise-it seems that most will not-but he derives nothing from these strange sexual encounters. And "grateful" is not an emotion I want to feel after sex. Nor do I want to feel responsible for someone having "compromised" their true feelings about sex. ( or anything else for that matter )

A prostitute has sex for money, not because they want to be with their client. Your partner is essentially prostituting himself for you, not for cash, but to keep you as a partner. It's a barter arrangement.

I know asexuals can't understand why sex is so important to sexuals, but one thing we're not looking for is sex-for-hire. Every time an asexual feels like they're having sex when they don't want it, because they feel they "have to" in order to maintain a relationship, they are prostituting themselves. Either you, as an asexual, are open about that, and your partner has to deal with the ramifications, or you hide it, pretend to like it, and deceive your partner (well, half-deceive, because your partner will come away from the encounter feeling shaky and threatened, if he/she has any powers of observation).

It is like masturbation, but with another person involved.

He thinks I just need the physical release-doesn't understand all the ineffable intangibles involved-so while I'm lying there afterwards emoting, he is probably making a grocery list in his head.

He doesn't mind kissing, or holding, but again-what does it mean to him?

A lot of A's seem to be okay with the kissing and holding. It may be just fine for him.

You know, I'm a writer, and I have never experienced such a failure of the language as I have in trying to talk about these issues.

It's like trying to tell someone how to tie a shoelace using only words-

but I guess even that would work if the person knew what a shoelace was....

It's so true, Heinlein. Maybe keep a journal? I've found that struggling to wrap words around all of this stuff helps me organize how I think about it.

Take care of yourself.

-Chiaroscuro

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I think an analogy is how a blind person thinks about sight - maybe a convenient way to find things, but completely unaware of the appreciation of the beauty of the visual world. Would a blind person want a sighted partner to live in the dark all the time?

I think this issue is more about people with no sexual desire, rather than people with no sexual attraction. What do you call a person with sexual attraction but no desire? An asexual sexual?

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What do you call a person with sexual attraction but no desire? An asexual sexual?

AFAIK I think such a person would see themselves as a sexual with a severe sexual dysfunction. Or else they would misinterpret the sexual attraction as nonsexual or fantasy-based attraction, since they don't actually have the desire that they would need in order to want to do anything about it, and call themselves asexual.

I'm aware that there may be other interpretations, I just can't think of them right now.

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A prostitute has sex for money, not because they want to be with their client. Your partner is essentially prostituting himself for you, not for cash, but to keep you as a partner. It's a barter arrangement.

-Chiaroscuro

Oh my God-why did I never see it in those terms-it is so clearly what is happening.

Thank you Chiaroscuro.

I think I will cry now....

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A prostitute has sex for money, not because they want to be with their client. Your partner is essentially prostituting himself for you, not for cash, but to keep you as a partner. It's a barter arrangement.

... at least until such a time they can no longer do it ...

Thanks for these clear words! Really made me pause and think.

Initially, thinking about this issue made me very sad, but then I think it's not bad at all. If you look at what motivates an asexual to actually compromise and have sex with their partners, it's usually not a businesslike - as in the case of the prostitute - thinking/attitude but very often motivated by love for their partner. And anything done because we love someone, even if we are somewhat unable to give that properly and look happy giving it, should be valued and honored.

And even if we were to follow the prostitute/for money only line further, marriage until nowadays was in fact an institution much more based on agreement and "barter" than romance:

- someone to keep the household

- produce heirs

- protection against wild animals

- source of income

- because it suits the parents' business strategies

In all of which women usually until the last century had next to nothing to say in it.

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If you look at what motivates an asexual to actually compromise and have sex with their partners, it's usually not a businesslike - as in the case of the prostitute - thinking/attitude but very often motivated by love for their partner. And anything done because we love someone, even if we are somewhat unable to give that properly and look happy giving it, should be valued and honored.

That's an excellent point, Mara. It's usually not a business transaction at all, it's a sacrifice made for love. That is a huge, and important distinction.

But when it's not a gift, freely given, it's still problematical. If the asexual feels coerced, or resentful, or forced, then what is it? If it's not a loving gesture (and I'm not saying it SHOULD be that if such a thing isn't possible), then what is it?

-Chiaroscuro

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I am to the point now when my husband finally gets the courage to try to have sex with me, I dont enjoy it because of him doing it only as a "kind" gesture, how can I be romantic with a person who doesnt want to be, thats not the point of having sex and intimate with a person in the first place. I want to be intimate and be close and show our love and passion for one another in a physical form. Surprisingly he initiated sex the last time, and it didnt last long and in the end I ended up rolling over and crying myself to sleep. Needlesss to say its been a few months now, and I dont ever want to repeat that again. I guess I am an asexual sexual. Not by choice.

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Hi Silvergirl,

If I thought our marriage was hurting the kids, I would leave in a heartbeat.

-Chiaroscuro

Just a note, I don't know how old your children are but I have 2 boys. My biggest fear is them getting married and their wives going through what I have been through for the past 15 years. I hug them often and I tell them you will be married one day and a woman needs affection and attention.

My 13 yr old looked at his Dad the other day out of the blue and said, "Why don't you ever touch Mom" of coursehe said nothing and walked away.

We don't fight, I do all the things I am supposed to do as a wife and he is content. The children notice more than you think.

My husband would be a good friend but not a partner. I have reached a point in my life where a partner is what I need I have plenty of friends.

Hopeless

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My 13 yr old looked at his Dad the other day out of the blue and said, "Why don't you ever touch Mom" of coursehe said nothing and walked away.

That's really sad, Notsure. I've said before that the marriage I'm in isn't the model I'd like to pass on to my children. But the only marriage I can offer them is the one I have. My parents were physically affectionate, but they gave me plenty of baggage to carry into my adult life (as I'm discovering). My wife's parents abused her... her father sexually... and she struggles with the scars of it. The marriage we're offering our children is imperfect, of course. I think it's better, at the moment, than divorce.

We had a crisis about a year ago when the children were confronted with Sunset's and my lack of intimacy. My son is 9 and doesn't know the details, just that we were going to break up, but decided to work to stay together. My daughter (who was then 13) and I had a number of emotional talks about what was going on. As a result, she knows that her mother was sexually abused by Grandad. She knows that her mother is struggling, and that my sleeping downstairs comes from that. I wish she didn't have to experience it first-hand, but she knows where it's coming from and why. She sees that we're struggling to stay together and love one another. It may all fall apart at some point, but I want my kids to know I tried my best.

We don't fight, I do all the things I am supposed to do as a wife and he is content. The children notice more than you think.

My husband would be a good friend but not a partner. I have reached a point in my life where a partner is what I need I have plenty of friends.

Hopeless

I wish you well, I really do. And I understand what you're feeling with my whole heart. You have to do, as much as possible, what you feel is right. For yourself and your kids.

-Chiaroscuro

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