Is Aspergers worth killing yourself over?

[Orbit]

This horrifies me. People with Asperger's do not have their brains 'ravaged' unless they are being mistreated because of it - like ANYONE might fall into depression if they couldn't pursue the career they wanted and their multiple divorced famous family was so insensitive that they would think their daughter better off dead.

Bacharach, Dickinson say daughter commits suicide in California

Associated Press

BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. - Nikki Bacharach, daughter of songwriter Burt Bacharach and actress Angie Dickinson, committed suicide, Bacharach and Dickinson said in a statement Friday.

Nikki Bacharach, 40, suffered from Asperger's Disorder, a form of autism. She killed herself Thursday night at her condo in Thousand Oaks, said Linda Dozoretz, a spokeswoman for the family.

"She quietly and peacefully committed suicide to escape the ravages to her brain brought on by Asperger's," the statement said.

Nikki Bacharach died of suffocation using a plastic bag and helium, said Mike Feiler of the Ventura County coroner's office.

Born prematurely in 1966, Lea Nikki Bacharach studied geology at Cal Lutheran University, but could not pursue a career in the field because of poor eyesight.

"She loved kitties, and earthquakes, glacial calving, meteor showers, science, blue skies and sunsets, and Tahiti," the statement said.

Nikki Bacharach was the only child of Burt Bacharach, 77, and Dickinson, 75, who were married from 1965 to 1981.

It was the second marriage for both Bacharach, the Oscar-winning composer of "Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head," and "What the World Needs Now is Love," and Dickinson, star of the film "Dress to Kill" and the TV show "Police Woman."

Bacharach has three children from other marriages.

Autism is a developmental disorder. Asperger's Disorder, also known as Asperger's syndrome, is sometimes called high-functioning autism.

It is tragic that this view of asperger's is being put out there to the masses who know so little about it. It's almost setting people up to be treated as if they are suffering because of some mind numbing disease instead of discrimination because they think differently.

It seems like anyone who doesn't fit into the mold of some ridiculous concept of 'normal' gets labeled with some kind of disease or disorder that has to be cured or blotted out through eugenic abortion.

Why can't people just be different?

[Kallan]

I agree completely. Asbergers is simply a different way of being, there's nothing wrong with it. There should be work to integrate people with different ways of being [what people call psychological disorders] rather than an attempt to 'fix' them, which usually doesn't work.

That being said, I do believe in the right to die, though in this case I think it was uneccessary and tragic.

[tallfreak]

My wife saw that and started to wonder about me. My official diagnoses of Aspergers just recently came through now all of a sudden she is worried about me even though nothing has changed. I'm probably one of the most happy-go-lucky person you'll ever meet.

Aspergers doesn't directly cause depression (but dealing with NT's can for an Aspie). The article makes it sound like Asperger's is a cause of suicidal tendencies, which is untrue.

[mindlife]

Born prematurely in 1966, Lea Nikki Bacharach studied geology at Cal Lutheran University, but could not pursue a career in the field because of poor eyesight.

This was probably retinopathy of prematurity. It made me legally blind. I thank God it didn't stop me.

[P.V.P.]

I agree that it almost surely wasn't the symptoms of AS itself that drove the person to suicide. The whole way this society is set up has many elements that can drive all kinds of people to despair. It was probably the feeling of being broken, misunderstood, and all that nasty stuff that results from rather tough social demands and pressures.

For some people, there might not be an adequate substitute for a healthy self-concept. Actually, there probably isn't a true substitute for anyone, but many of us NTs especially can just BS our way through life, as did that girl's family who found a convenient non-human scapegoat to blame for their daughter's deadly depression rather than looking at the tangled web of connections of which they, disturbingly enough, are a part.

I can't say I blame people for not wanting to blame themselves for things. But I wish people in general weren't so heavily addicted to BS as a way of coping, to the point where psychological researchers whose books I read for fun are willing to accept BS as a healthy and necessary function of the left brain. That's got to say something about our society, too. Perhaps it is necessary to an extent, but if society were different, quite possibly not to the extent that they find in their studies.

[Shooting Star]

The cold insensitive manner in which they handled her death makes me wonder about how they treated her in life. I'm not even sure they'd care to give her a decent burial.

For once, I think me and Orbit are on the same page.

[Goonie]

It is tragic that this view of asperger's is being put out there to the masses who know so little about it. It's almost setting people up to be treated as if they are suffering because of some mind numbing disease instead of discrimination because they think differently.

...

Why can't people just be different?

They can't be different because it is unkown. People have and probably will always be worried about the unknown. Who knows, in the next 30 years maybe people will come to accept asperger's as just another personality characteristic

[Orbit]

For once, I think me and Orbit are on the same page.

There's a scary thought for anyone... agreeing with Orbit? Is there something falling from the sky???

*L*

New quote just released:

"She quietly and peacefully committed suicide to escape the ravages to her emotions brought on by her incredibly ignorant and insensitive family"

[Xenon]

In cases like these, if there is something about the person that is the least bit out of the ordinary, the media likes to blow it up way out of proportion. I am reminded of a murder case here in Edmonton 10 or so years ago, where the killer happened to be a big Star Trek fan. Naturally, the media couldn't talk about him without pointing out that he was a big Star Trek fan, as if that had anything to do with his crime...

[P.V.P.]

In cases like these, if there is something about the person that is the least bit out of the ordinary, the media likes to blow it up way out of proportion. I am reminded of a murder case here in Edmonton 10 or so years ago, where the killer happened to be a big Star Trek fan. Naturally, the media couldn't talk about him without pointing out that he was a big Star Trek fan, as if that had anything to do with his crime...

Right. Because no "normal" person could be driven to do such things. They can't be, because that would mean that *gasp* you could possibly do it. Or someone you love could do it. You can't just safely say "I'm not evil; that person is" and not have to think about something that could challenge the happy illusion your self-concept rests on.

And accepting yourself despite the possibility that you could one day do something morally wrong, yet not just shrugging off anything suspect but rather being on guard with yourself and learning from your experiences, is just too damn complicated to try to figure out.

[Kallan]

For once, I think me and Orbit are on the same page.

There's a scary thought for anyone... agreeing with Orbit? Is there something falling from the sky???

and not to long ago I was found agreeing with vits3k...be on the lookout for the breaking of the other seals of the apocalyps.

K, sorry, off topic :D .

[mindlife]

But I wish people in general weren't so heavily addicted to BS as a way of coping, to the point where psychological researchers whose books I read for fun are willing to accept BS as a healthy and necessary function of the left brain.

When you're socially and physically isolated, despair is impossible to BS one's way out of. I have confronted despair all my life.

[Octarine]

In cases like these, if there is something about the person that is the least bit out of the ordinary, the media likes to blow it up way out of proportion. I am reminded of a murder case here in Edmonton 10 or so years ago, where the killer happened to be a big Star Trek fan. Naturally, the media couldn't talk about him without pointing out that he was a big Star Trek fan, as if that had anything to do with his crime...

There was a murder near where I live where the killer was goth. They had TWO stories in our newspaper on the SAME DAY, both saying the EXACT same thing, "He was normal, his sister died, he became goth." They also put his name in the article, even though he's a minor. :roll: Though, this was the same newpaper that had an article about a pit bull biting another dog.

[alucard]

It's really amazing how they managed to pinpoint the cause - ravages to her brain brought on by Asperger's :roll: Did she left a letter stating so or something?

[T_S]

Aspergers doesn't directly cause depression (but dealing with NT's can for an Aspie).

Sorry if this is off topic. I'm curious to know what you mean by this.

[maufry]

I found an article on Asperger's and autism. (I was looking for a definition of "NTs," lol.) It's long, but very interesting. It might seem a little judgemental to some people, but the end is pretty good. There's also a link at the bottom of the article to a quiz that measures your "Autism-Spectrum Quotient." Turns out I have more autistic tendencies than I thought. Yay for anitsocial types, lol. :)

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

[T_S]

(I was looking for a definition of "NTs," lol.)

I think NTs refers to the MBTI personality type iNtuitive Thinker. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator

[Peppermintdrop]

(I was looking for a definition of "NTs," lol.)

I think NTs refers to the MBTI personality type iNtuitive Thinker. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator

Actually, NT refers to "neuro-typical". Someone with a "normal" mind.

[T_S]

Oooooo I see. Now that comment makes sense. Sorry, when I see capital letters my first thought is MBTI.

[Pobblebonk]

It is tragic that this view of asperger's is being put out there to the masses who know so little about it. It's almost setting people up to be treated as if they are suffering because of some mind numbing disease instead of discrimination because they think differently.

It seems like anyone who doesn't fit into the mold of some ridiculous concept of 'normal' gets labeled with some kind of disease or disorder that has to be cured or blotted out through eugenic abortion.

Why can't people just be different?

True, it isn't immediately obvious from the way this story is reported that Aspergers had anything to do with her suicide.

However, never, ever fall into the trap of simplistically assuming that problems caused by Aspergers are no more than the product of social discrimination. There are people for whom Aspergers fits their personality type, who are naturally disinclined from engaging in social interaction and are comfortable with having Aspie traits. There are also deaf people who are happy with being unable to hear.

Then there are those who go one step further - the ones who say that being deaf is a 'gift', or that deaf people are just being subject to discrimination and shouldn't be 'cured', regardless of whether or not other deaf people are suffering from what is, indeed, a disorder. Generalising one's own experiences as an Aspie to bang on about how it's just "different" and causes no problems is as just as absurd and insensitive.

I exhibit a lot of the symptoms of Aspergers syndrome, having researched the subject in some detail. Among other traits, I have difficulty reading social cues, in understanding the social conventions that tell others what behaviour is appropriate and what isn't. Unfortunately, I also have a desire to spend time with and enjoy the company of other people. Not because that's what society expects or because I want to fit in; I genuinely get lonely in the absence of contact with friends and am eager to spend time with them. Yet at the same time I've had experiences where I've done things that have upset my friends, I've become upset myself because I don't understand what it is I've done wrong or what I need to do to sort out any resulting problems, and as a consequence I've developed extreme paranoia about the strength of my relationships and the value friends place on me.

None of this stems from my friends 'not making allowances' for me - in fact I've realised on multiple occasions that my friends don't take my mistakes as badly as I worry they will, though that never stops me panicking about it until I realise that. I've lost at least one friendship I valued through a particularly bad mistake, and again it's one for which my erstwhile friend can't be blamed - other people have their own hangups and issues they're especially sensitive to, and when emotional reactions are involved it's not fair to expect them to ignore the fact that you've hurt them for your sake. Other Aspie characteristics I possess include obsessiveness and intensity of emotion; when I make a mistake I can't let it go easily or avoid feeling guilt often out of proportion to what's gone wrong.

For people who don't suffer such downsides to being an Aspie, good for them. But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about. It is indeed tragic to see views of Aspergers put out by those who know little about it - a group which includes those with the myopic attitude that "there's nothing wrong with it". Being an Aspie is not simply the personality type of someone who is naturally antisocial.

Phil

[Pobblebonk]

Aspergers doesn't directly cause depression (but dealing with NT's can for an Aspie).

Sorry if this is off topic. I'm curious to know what you mean by this.

NT=Neurotypical, i.e. most people. Or to put it another way, Aspergers won't cause depression if you're not engaged in human contact in any way.

In which case the lack of human contact will probably cause it instead...

Phil

[Orbit]

For people who don't suffer such downsides to being an Aspie, good for them. But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about. It is indeed tragic to see views of Aspergers put out by those who know little about it - a group which includes those with the myopic attitude that "there's nothing wrong with it".

It's a disorder as much as being hard of hearing or near sighted is a handicap. There are a variety of degrees from barely noticible, correctable to total deafness and blindness. The major exception is that AS is mostly invisible because people are not as aware of it and they don't understand it.

This woman was partially blind and her 'blindness' was as likely as at fault for her depression that led to suicide as was her aspergers, but the prejudice against blind folks is not as strong as it is against aspergers because AS is transparent, so the parents blame the AS.

But not all AS folks commit suicide and not all suicide victims are AS... so it doesn't make sense to make the correlation.

Aspies have as much personality differences among them as NT's and to pinpoint your issues all on asperger's would be unfair to you and to others with aspergers.

Not every NT person is free of paranoia and screwing up relationships, they just do it in different ways. But we don't blame it on their brain, do we?

I'm sorry for your struggles, and I am not saying asperger's doesn't contribute to them, but nobody is better off dead because they have asperger's.

[Pobblebonk]

For people who don't suffer such downsides to being an Aspie' date=' good for them. But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about. It is indeed tragic to see views of Aspergers put out by those who know little about it - a group which includes those with the myopic attitude that "there's nothing wrong with it".[/quote']

It's a disorder as much as being hard of hearing or near sighted is a handicap.

Precisely. Which is not at all the same as simply "thinking differently".

There are a variety of degrees from barely noticible, correctable to total deafness and blindness. The major exception is that AS is mostly invisible because people are not as aware of it and they don't understand it.

One problem with that lack of awareness is that, unlike deafness and shortsightedness, there aren't any aids available for correcting it. It has to be entirely a learning experience to cope on the part of the Aspie. And portraying it as not being any sort of problem does nothing to change that.

This woman was partially blind and her 'blindness' was as likely as at fault for her depression that led to suicide as was her aspergers,

The article doesn't give the information to judge either way - both could have contributed, neither could have been relevant, or it could have largely been one or the other. My father wasn't able to pursue his chosen career due to shortsightedness but it didn't cause him to commit suicide. And considering that this woman was 40 years old or thereabouts, the fact that she wasn't able to become a geologist would have been two decades in the past - presumably she had another career. All we have to go on about the reasons for her suicide is the parents' opinion expressed in the article.

But not all AS folks commit suicide and not all suicide victims are AS... so it doesn't make sense to make the correlation.

You can say the same about blind people. That doesn't mean there needn't be either a correlation or a causal connection. Not all smokers die of heart disease and not all heart disease victims are smokers, but it doesn't follow that smoking is unrelated to heart disease. Aspies may well be at higher risk of suicide than other people.

Aspies have as much personality differences among them as NT's and to pinpoint your issues all on asperger's would be unfair to you and to others with aspergers.

No, they aren't all due to Aspergers. That doesn't imply that none of them are, or that they're all simply the product of aspects of my personality. I'd still have had a difficult time in that friendship I messed up without Aspergers; there were other issues there. But without the paranoia I can trace to Aspergers-derived difficulties in socialising and without the Aspergers-derived inability to understand and rectify what went wrong as a result, I would never have been in the situation that led me to hurt that friend and blow the chances of reconciliation.

Not every NT person is free of paranoia and screwing up relationships, they just do it in different ways.

This is true. And not everyone who suffers from paranoia is a coke fiend either. It's still the case that cocaine can be a source of paranoia, and can be blamed for it. Just as it's true that Aspergers can be.

I'm sorry for your struggles, and I am not saying asperger's doesn't contribute to them, but nobody is better off dead because they have asperger's.

Nobody is better off dead whatever they have - being alive is preferable to not being alive. However, the fact that people commit suicide suggests that, at least at the time they kill themselves, those people think differently. For one reason or another that woman presumably did think she'd be better off dead; that may or may not have been due to Aspergers. We aren't given the background on the reasons her parents came to that conclusion, and I don't notice anything in the article that suggests they thought she would be better off dead.

Phil

[Brodertun]

I second everything that Phil has said.

But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about.

And don't forget how that quickly manifests itself into actions that nt's consider obsessive harassment, when the aspie doesn't consider it anything out of the norm of a typical response.

Furthermore the not being able to make "common sense' connections seriously inhibitis relationships, even amongst those who ar kind and udesrtsanding because they get frustrated that you don't know something they told you - when in fact they hadn't told you.

I remember when I was in journalism in class of 10-12th grraders. Sometimes are assignments were by grades, sometimes not. Once we were trying to get a photo with students layingon the gym floor spelling out the schools name. I heard every word she said but was frantically going back and forth in my head trying to decide if "I want everyone to have a letter" meant that I was supposed to volunteer to take a letter to - I'd heard her say that before when it didn't mean everyone. And it is not something as simple as just "asking' - if it had been, I wouldn't have been an aspie.

You know its only in the past few months that I've realized why as a child my sister and couasin sometimes stopped me and explained that they didn't like me and didn't want them there. I never could figure that out myself - I mean, I knew they didn't want me there but after the cousins my age died it was more fun than the alternative. I always thought they had been foolish for thinking I didn't know they didn't like me - now I realise that was a way of telling me to go somewhere else.

[alucard]

But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about.

Aspergers is no more disorder then asexuality. If anything, then simply being different is a problem for most people.

I've seen people coming here relieved that there's nothing wrong with them after all. HOW SCREWED UP CAN ONE GET? :evil:

[Kallan]

But Aspergers syndrome is a disorder - for many people it is a condemnation to a life of insecurity, paranoia and retrospective guilt over the pain inadvertently caused to those they care about.

Aspergers is no more disorder then asexuality. If anything, then simply being different is a problem for most people.

I've seen people coming here relieved that there's nothing wrong with them after all. HOW SCREWED UP CAN ONE GET? :evil:

Seconded. as I said before. It is simply another way of being. It is labeled a disorder by psychologists and psychiatrists who make a great deal of money 'treating' it.

[Derp]

It is indeed tragic to see views of Aspergers put out by those who know little about it - a group which includes those with the myopic attitude that "there's nothing wrong with it".

It's my understanding that most of the people who have this attitude are Aspie themselves. People who would know a thing or two about it, even though they may or may not happen to be neuroscientists.

Or is there some big group of NTs in this camp that I don't know about? :?

I've seen people coming here relieved that there's nothing wrong with them after all. HOW SCREWED UP CAN ONE GET? :evil:

I know, how dare they! As if people in the minority can decide for themselves whether they're "sick" or not. :evil:

[Orbit]

One problem with that lack of awareness is that' date=' unlike deafness and shortsightedness' date=' there aren't any aids available for correcting it. It has to be entirely a learning experience to cope on the part of the Aspie. And portraying it as not being any sort of problem does nothing to change that. [/quote'']

I don't portray it like that at all, you are reading prejudice into my post and talking to me as if I have no clue what it's like to be aspie. Not only do I have several friends with varying degrees of Aspergers and Autism but I have quite a few traits myself and test on the scale in every test I've taken.

I am right there with you on most of this. Having AS is a problem in much the same way someone who doesn't see well has a problem. Only we don't have proper diagnosis to figure out in what way and degree their social sensitivity is not spot on, and we don't know how to just 'fix it'. It's not a physical thing, it's neurological and in that way people with AS do have to LEARN how to overcome the social obsticles which they can't see but NT's find obvious and enjoyable.

However, I would insist that there is nothing WRONG with their brain or the way they think, not in any way that is inferior - many highly intelligent aspies can attribute much of their success in their fields to not being distracted by the affect they would feel if they had an NT brain.

Just look at all the top scientific publishers who have Aspergers. In her Jan 1 blogg <- click Lili highlights a list of aspie scientists who have greatly influence our society through their publishing.

I would also like to agree with you on something else...

No' date=' they aren't all due to Aspergers. That doesn't imply that none of them are, or that they're all simply the product of aspects of my personality. I'd still have had a difficult time in that friendship I messed up without Aspergers; there were other issues there. But without the paranoia I can trace to Aspergers-derived difficulties in socialising and without the Aspergers-derived inability to understand and rectify what went wrong as a result, I would never have been in the situation that led me to hurt that friend and blow the chances of reconciliation. [/quote']

What's wrong is that our society is increasingly demanding that everyone behave in a specified way and without the proper assistance in learning what their social 'impairments' are and how to overcome them, many with AS could develop personality disorders. But this is true for anyone who is stuck in a situation that does not mesh with their particular brain design.

Where you and I differ is wherein lies the blame - the AS or the environment. Because so many Aspies are significant positive contributers (and awesome people) I refuse to lie the blame on the AS. IMO it is the environment that is not suitable to the person with AS.

It is much like sticking a blind person in a sharp cornered maze where the walls keep changing and there are objects laying all around on the floor and people keep saying - what's wrong with you? Why do you keep running into things and people? THAT causes stress and disfunction - it would for ANYONE.

But put a blind person in an environment that doesn't change often and they can become familiar with it and there are no dangerous obsticles and that person will flourish almost as if the impairment was not there and if the people around them understood what the issue was they could help them out when needed, but still treat them as a dignified, intelligent, contributing part of society.

This is why I liken AS to varying degrees of eye sight impairment. Different aspies have different levels of social blindness that make them in need of more or less of a stable environment.

We aren't given the background on the reasons her parents came to that conclusion' date=' and I don't notice anything in the article that suggests they thought she would be better off dead. [/quote']

It was the word choices in the statement they released that set the tone - you might not be able to read into it, but most people here and at another aspie site I go to have also picked up on it.

[alucard]

I've seen people coming here relieved that there's nothing wrong with them after all. HOW SCREWED UP CAN ONE GET? :evil:

I know, how dare they! As if people in the minority can decide for themselves what's "sick" and what isn't. :evil:

:? Just to clarify - I'm annoyed about people who readily label themselves as sick/wrong and seek to do something about their 'abnormalities' whenever a difference from their side don't enable them to be as 'normal' as every one else.

Seriously, I'd rather put up with arrogant narcissists...

[Derp]

:? Just to clarify - I'm annoyed about people who readily label themselves as sick/wrong and seek to do something about their 'abnormalities' whenever a difference from their side don't enable them to be as 'normal' as every one else.

Whooooops... *adjusts oversensitive sarcasm detector*

And while I am inclined to agree with you, I'm personally more annoyed with the "everyone else" who think that's exactly what "abnormal" people are supposed to do...