Maybe daft questions about the nature of experiencing gender

[Sea Lemon]

So I've been seeing a therapist recently, and we've been kind of exploring my feelings about how I see myself and I've come to realise that I don't really see my gender as an integral part of my identity, or maybe I don't actually know what gender is?

 

Like, I'm fine with being referred to as a woman and 'she' because that's what I'm used to, but like, I don't feel like a woman necessarily, I don't really feel like anything in particular, I'm just a me. I think maybe I'm kind of uncomfortable being kind of immediately perceivable as a woman? I don't think I necessarily feel distress or a strong desire to change to a particular different gender (although if someone offered me a completely sexless robot body I would be so down), but I feel like something doesn't quite fit somewhere along the line. 

 

Do other people experience their gender as an actual thing? Or is this a normal variation of cis-ness? Am I allowed to start using 'they' if I'm technically cis? 

[A User]

5 minutes ago, Sea Lemon said:

Like, I'm fine with being referred to as a woman and 'she' because that's what I'm used to, but like, I don't feel like a woman necessarily, I don't really feel like anything in particular, I'm just a me. I think maybe I'm kind of uncomfortable being kind of immediately perceivable as a woman? I don't think I necessarily feel distress or a strong desire to change to a particular different gender (although if someone offered me a completely sexless robot body I would be so down), but I feel like something doesn't quite fit somewhere along the line. 

same here

 

5 minutes ago, Sea Lemon said:

Am I allowed to start using 'they' if I'm technically cis? 

it honestly doesn't matter. You do you.
 

 

5 minutes ago, Sea Lemon said:

Do other people experience their gender as an actual thing? Or is this a normal variation of cis-ness?

can't say for sure 

[Morays]

I pretty much feel the same way as you, and personally consider myself cis because I feel no particular desire to be anything else, really. I am what I am, and I'm at peace with that. The discomfort I feel is towards external expectations I feel I can't meet, not anything internal.

 

That being said, I think anyone can use "they" pronouns if they wish! You don't need to pass an entrance exam for it.

[Snao Cone]

I've been using "they" more now, and I am very very reluctant to say that I'm the least bit trans. Even saying I'm non-binary makes me feel like I'm infringing upon sacred territory of people who are more authentic than I am. I have gone through various phases back and forth about how I like to dress or present myself in a fashion sense, and sometimes that's more feminine than others. I was much more of a tomboy in my younger years, but since I started to be a bit more comfortable in dresses from about 25 - 35 years old I dismissed the possibility that I was detached from my assigned gender as me just being a whiny piece of shit. But the desire to be both and neither binary genders has come back over the past few years and I'm really questioning that again.

 

There is now the option here of legally changing your sex to "X" (as opposed to M/F) and I've always wanted to do that. At first I thought that was just allyship and initiative to remove sex designation from as many things possible to help trans folks face less scrutiny overall, but the fact that it's an option now makes it feel really relevant to me. So maybe I'm not a woman, and maybe I'm not cis. I am relating to "womanhood" less and less, even though when I dressed as very femme I still didn't feel much belonging, which I attributed more to size, orientation, and politics.

 

tl;dr, I have no fucking clue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Milque Toast]

I would definitely say that I "experience" my gender. I am cis-female, and if I had to trade my body for a sexless robot body, I would say no, probably.

I wouldn't say I "love" my curves, waist, breasts, or whatever, but I would still say it's part of me and it still makes me happy, in a way?

I'm aware that I strongly fit to gender roles/stereotyeps, such as my entire room being pink, and I mainly dress in a very feminine way and colours, but it's also who I am, and I'm aware that it brings me great joy to do those things. Generally, I quite like femininity, both being feminine, and looking at feminine things/people. And I can see myself probably being in a romantic/QPR with a woman when I'm older. That's just preference, though.

 

I'm not really sure how "normal" this is, though. But I would say on AVEN, I've definitely heard of more people that feel the same way you do, instead of how I do.

[timewarp]

That's a tricky question. For me the concept of gender dysphoria is easier to grasp than the concept of gender. I tick most or all of the boxes in terms of physical gender dysphoria when it comes to being uncomfortable with the typical traits of my biological sex. What exactly I'm comfortable with is already more difficult. And I don't think I've ever had a real grasp of the social aspects of gender or gender dysphoria. As far as others are concerned, I'm really just a person.

 

Socially I've never closely related to any gender. Being in an environment where people care much more about other things (science and engineering professionally, plus the ace community which is similar in that respect) certainly helps with that. The only gender-specific thing I do is to pick the men's loo when I need, which is just what my plumbing suggests (apart from the fact that it's probably the one big advantage of having a male body, not having to sit down when weeing).

[VeryAsexyIndeed]

1 hour ago, Sea Lemon said:

Am I allowed to start using 'they' if I'm technically cis? 

Yes yes of course you are! Anyone can use any pronouns no matter what their gender is. Different people like different pronouns and that’s that. There are enbys who go by binary pronouns (he and/or she) and there are cis people who go by gender neutral pronouns and there’s nothing wrong with that. You do what feels good for you, and if you feel like they/them fits you then go for it! Pronouns doesn’t equal gender.

[rebis]

I do think most people experience their being male or female as a definite aspect of their identity. And it's interesting because I don't think that means cis folk all necessarily feel like it means they have to conform strictly to the stereotypes associated with their gender. That is, I think there are men who are absolutely comfortable having some more feminine aspects to their behavior or identity, but who nonetheless are definite that they consider themselves to be male, and likewise there are women who like plenty of things associated with being male and who are comfortable with behavior seen as traditionally masculine, but who nonetheless are clear about the fact that they are solid in their identity as being women.

 

But, I also think some of this could likely be attributed to the fact that society generally considers there to be only the two options; that you have to be one or the other, so that means that for most people, unless you feel like your internal sense of self is in direct odds with your body, then of course by default you must be the gender you were assigned at birth.

 

We don't all fit neatly into just one of two binary choices though, so I think ... you know, it is cool that some women are able to be comfortable being somewhat more masculine and some men are comfortable being somewhat more feminine, and as society progresses, we should move to a place where people are comfortable with not identifying with either, in any definite sense. That's not to say anybody needs to feel like they can't -- just that we shouldn't feel like we have to.

[Emery.]

59 minutes ago, Sea Lemon said:

Do other people experience their gender as an actual thing?

Yes. 

 

59 minutes ago, Sea Lemon said:

Or is this a normal variation of cis-ness?

I'm not sure if it's being cisgender, maybe more a shade of agender, but definitely normal. A lot of people feel like that. 

 

About pronouns, as others have said, you do you. 

[godace]

I've always tried to make my clothing / voice / written and spoken expression : 

 - genderless

 - ethnicityless

 - socio-economical category -less

In order to avoid criticism from other girls, unwanted comments from weird men, police controls, and teacher hostility. While I was trying to keep away from these things, I ended up pursuing another purpose : The Aesthetic. Now, I don't try to look like a man or a woman anymore, I just want to Look Dope. As for gender identity, I don't know what I'm doing. I know that I don't feel manly, and that's a good beginning. But I feel like I've been trying not to talk, not to dress, not to behave like a woman, for years on, and now I don't know what womanhood means. Maybe it's already there, hidden somewhere in my aesthetics ? like, maybe one day I'll be smoking my cigar, in my high waisted green  cigarette pants, in my art deco appartment, swiftly drinking my ginger tea, and it will hit me, damn that's being a woman

[Anthracite_Impreza]

As a trans male I can tell you I feel gender very strongly, that's what makes the incongruence between mind and body so fucking painful. I get immense euphoria from being called he and brother, while female designations make me want to simultaneously die and murder whoever's saying it. I get unreasonably jealous of cis blokes and trans blokes who've transitioned, and yes I've engaged in toxic masculinity in a desperate attempt to comfort and 'prove' myself. I know from speaking to them, I actually feel more male than a lot of cis blokes, so there's definitely a scale and at some point the line between binary and enby gets blurred. I really don't think it matters what you call yourself in that case.

[Acerna]

Im almost in the same boat, and consider myself cis and female but use she/they pronouns. Its what is comfortable and makes me happy, even though I don’t feel dysphoric or a strong identification with a gender. Use them if you want, and if it doesn’t work out for you, now you know

[Sea Lemon]

Thanks for the replies everyone

 

1 hour ago, Snao Cone said:

Even saying I'm non-binary makes me feel like I'm infringing upon sacred territory of people who are more authentic than I am.

Oh very same! I've been mulling this over for a while but didn't want to infringe on 'legit' people's spaces. 

[Rynn]

1 hour ago, Sea Lemon said:

Do other people experience their gender as an actual thing?

Some do, some don't.

 

1 hour ago, Sea Lemon said:

Or is this a normal variation of cis-ness?

Could be. Cis-genderless is a term that could fit. It's a grey area. It really depends on how you define words like cis at that point. So yeah it's up to you what you want to call it.

 

1 hour ago, Sea Lemon said:

Am I allowed to start using 'they' if I'm technically cis? 

Absolutely.

[Guest]

I think it can depend on...uh...stuff really.

 

Other people have always used he/him pronouns for me. Like you, I was pretty indifferent to it, because I guess it was like...what seems like the obvious/default option. I didn't especially enjoy it, but I didn't hate it either. I've never related to anything that's really expected of a boy or a man or a guy or whatever and I experienced some bullying connected to that when I was younger.

 

I started using they/them a few years ago, but it wasn't until relatively recently that he/him really bothered me more and more. There's no good reason for this to bother me, because I've never actually asked anyone to use they/them for me (except in my AVEN profile and sometimes in my Twitter bio), but still.

 

But recently on another online community, someone used she/her for me and it had a really kinda...good and weird (?) emotional effect on me. I can't explain it, because emotions are strange and confusing - but it definitely made me feel...something not negative.

 

So it's like over time, my indifference to he/him has started to turn into active dislike, they/them was just kind of convenient and now she/her has come smashing in like the Kool-Aid Man and I'm so confused and I'm not sure how much any of this rambling is actually helpful or even relevant to the point, so I'll stop now!

[Davida]

2 hours ago, Sea Lemon said:

So I've been seeing a therapist recently, and we've been kind of exploring my feelings about how I see myself and I've come to realise that I don't really see my gender as an integral part of my identity, or maybe I don't actually know what gender is?

 

Like, I'm fine with being referred to as a woman and 'she' because that's what I'm used to, but like, I don't feel like a woman necessarily, I don't really feel like anything in particular, I'm just a me. I think maybe I'm kind of uncomfortable being kind of immediately perceivable as a woman? I don't think I necessarily feel distress or a strong desire to change to a particular different gender (although if someone offered me a completely sexless robot body I would be so down), but I feel like something doesn't quite fit somewhere along the line. 

 

Do other people experience their gender as an actual thing? Or is this a normal variation of cis-ness? Am I allowed to start using 'they' if I'm technically cis? 

Hi @sea_lemon I identify strongly with what you wrote. I was assigned female at birth. I thought for a while I was gender fluid, but mostly I feel agender. It would be fine with me if I didn't present as either gender. I've experienced gender dysphoria insofar as I used to feel extremely challenged by being in a female body, but not in such a way that I identified with male presentation, rather I was distressed at having sex/gender-specific parts/expressions at all. I've been thinking about pronouns a lot lately bc I work in a fairly liberal environment (academia), and many of my colleagues amend their pronouns to their signatures and zoom IDs, and encourage students and fellow colleagues to share theirs too. I understand their intentions come from a good place, but speaking for myself, I neither wish to out myself at work, nor invalidate myself by lying about my pronouns. That is, it seems to me that asking someone directly, "my pronouns she/her, what are your pronouns?" is an intimate request; it's not just "how would you prefer I address you?", but rather "tell me your gender identity."

 

@sea_lemon, what do you understand "cis" to mean? 

[Davida]

1 hour ago, godace said:

I ended up pursuing another purpose : The Aesthetic. Now, I don't try to look like a man or a woman anymore, I just want to Look Dope. 

So feeling this. ❤️

[Sea Lemon]

3 minutes ago, Davida said:

what do you understand "cis" to mean?

I'm not super well-versed in all the terminology, but from what I understood it just meant not trans and not experiencing gender dysphoria. 

 

11 minutes ago, Davida said:

having sex/gender-specific parts/expressions at all

That's exactly it! I would ideally like to be nothing and be perceived as nothing. 

-----

 

I think also it may not be helping that I'm aware that I would probably face at least some significant social consequences if I were to change my presentation and/or how I publicly identify, so perhaps I've inadvertently been stifling myself a little too. 

[Janus the Fox]

I think I've felt the same way before, yet determining I'm Trans.  I don't have a Gender Identity beyond a Non-Gender/Agender, I've otherwise felt my Sex perceptions are different from the Birth Sex, while being mildly Intersex and diagnosed Gender Dysphoric Disorder complicates matters and I'd rather femininity in more or less it's full terms.

[BZA]

I'm AMAB but don't really feel like any gender most of the time. Maybe some combination of male/female (or in my mind, "just human" or "just me"). I've always thought of masculinity and feminity, together, as integral to being human, but I'm beginning to think for me this is more than the abstract philosophy I've thought? It is so confusing however. I don't feel any dysphoria so I thought that meant I was cis-male and that was the end of it. (May still be!) Based on that idea (the default before I ever understood trans or heard of non-binary or agender) I felt I was heterosexual and not out of place. Until I, impossibly, fell in love with my friend! (All roads lead to confusion?) I'm basically straight otherwise. I suppose a better way to say, I am gynesexual. (Aside from my relationship to @dgt since the 90s!) 🤔 But I feel differently toward females than toward David, and I feel completely neutral toward other males (I can be an acquaintance, colleague, sparring partner, 😁 maybe friends, don't/can't really think of guys in other ways). And I have no idea if this is independent of my feelings about gender or not. (Don't really know my feelings on gender anymore, other than have had wordless feelings of "both" at least at times, but mainly no lasting feeling of any gender at all.)

 

[Emery.]

11 hours ago, godace said:

But I feel like I've been trying not to talk, not to dress, not to behave like a woman, for years on, and now I don't know what womanhood means.

I somewhat relate

 

11 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

I actually feel more male than a lot of cis blokes

Same here. Stereotypical masculinity just resonates with me or I don't know when I'm doing it. 

 

But I guess I started to feel more "just human" after social transition finished. Maybe feeling gender is an indicator of incongruence of one sort or another. Now I don't think about it much any more. Reality makes sense. 

[Calligraphette_Coe]

On 2/28/2021 at 2:04 PM, Snao Cone said:

I've been using "they" more now, and I am very very reluctant to say that I'm the least bit trans. Even saying I'm non-binary makes me feel like I'm infringing upon sacred territory of people who are more authentic than I am. I have gone through various phases back and forth about how I like to dress or present myself in a fashion sense, and sometimes that's more feminine than others. I was much more of a tomboy in my younger years, but since I started to be a bit more comfortable in dresses from about 25 - 35 years old I dismissed the possibility that I was detached from my assigned gender as me just being a whiny piece of shit. But the desire to be both and neither binary genders has come back over the past few years and I'm really questioning that again.

 

 

I guess I'm always a little puzzled by this? One doesn't  get much more trans than I am, yet in a lifetime, I've never reached a place where I was really at peace with it, much less feeling it was something 'sacred'. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, so how could there be any appropriation? If anything it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one, which before the Internet, I often felt that way, and it made me despair. And though I don't have any proof or argument that I coule explain, I always wonder if transness was a little like "In for a penny, in for a pound." 

 

See, I think the REAL appropriation is happening on the political level by real jerks like Marjorie Taylor Green who are using it in a grasping manner for fame and power, and for them I'd like to propose Dante's Inferno. Their bigotry is like the old one about electrical systems in British sports cars: " Lucas Electric headlights don't give off light, they suck darkness." 

 

I think that anyone who questions gender is a point of light and a potential ally, and how can that be anything but good?