Rainy Robin Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 I've been struggling to try and figure out my preferred gender expression lately, and I keep getting stuck because I can't tell if I feel gender envy or if its just appreciation of a clothing aesthetic because I think it looks good on other people. To clarify, if I see someone in a specific outfit with a specific presentation, I've had a hard time figuring out if I want to look like them, or if I just think that their outfit and presentation looks good in a purely aesthetic way that may not translate into me wanting that presentation for myself. How have you all distinguished this for yourselves? I'd love to hear some stories or get some advice from anyone who feels comfortable sharing! Link to post Share on other sites
Snao Cone Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 If I had a body that worked with the aesthetic I like I would probably have more useful input here. I've been curvy my whole life (well, I think it only qualifies as "fat" before puberty when the t&a sprung out in a more shapely fashion) but I have always envied more angular aesthetics. I got a binder over a year ago that has helped me experiment, but it only flattens things by about 50% so I still look too curvy to pull off some of the things that appeal to me more. I think if you feel like you're missing out by not being able to pull the look off, that's distinct from just admiring it in an aesthetic or artistic sense. Link to post Share on other sites
timewarp Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 For me it's I think just plain old physical dysphoria. Clothing style not so much, because what I prefer to wear works more or less for any gender. What really bothers me a lot is body hair. And aesthetics is really not strong enough to describe that - it truly bothers me a lot. Which also means getting rid of it goes a long way. Other things are not that easy to fix, plus the social aspects add another level of complication which I'm not willing (or don't have the guts maybe) to face, at least at this point. Link to post Share on other sites
Rainy Robin Posted February 23, 2021 Author Share Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Snao Cone said: I think if you feel like you're missing out by not being able to pull the look off, that's distinct from just admiring it in an aesthetic or artistic sense. Wow, this helps a lot. Thank you! 1 hour ago, timewarp said: For me it's I think just plain old physical dysphoria. Clothing style not so much, because what I prefer to wear works more or less for any gender. Oh, this makes sense as well. In other words, it's more about aligning your body's physical characteristics with your internal sense of self, rather than specifically focusing on certain types of clothes to achieve the look you're going for? Thanks for your input! Link to post Share on other sites
Oberon Jasper Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 For me gender envy is very negative. It makes me feel upset at how they look rather than appreciative. Seeing a flat chested man wearing a vest makes me angry because I'm not that and when I look in the mirror that's not what I'll see... Aesthetic attraction is more positive of "WOW! How are they so beautiful?" It's just more positive emotions. Edit: Like if someone's wearing a cool outfit I usually just am like neat, but if they're male there's also this darker emotion that goes, "Clothes will never fit you that way." And then I feel bad and angry. Link to post Share on other sites
Rainy Robin Posted February 23, 2021 Author Share Posted February 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Kieran the Vampire said: Like if someone's wearing a cool outfit I usually just am like neat, but if they're male there's also this darker emotion that goes, "Clothes will never fit you that way." And then I feel bad and angry. This is really helpful, thank you 💜 So does gender envy cause dysphoria to flare up as well, or is it mainly feelings of frustration that you may not be able to achieve the look you're trying to achieve? Link to post Share on other sites
Oberon Jasper Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rainy Robin said: This is really helpful, thank you 💜 So does gender envy cause dysphoria to flare up as well, or is it mainly feelings of frustration that you may not be able to achieve the look you're trying to achieve? It depends on whether or not I was already feeling dysphoric. If I'm already feeling even the faintest bit dysphoric it's like getting hit with a truck. If not it has a brief moment where I feel dysphoric then it goes away. Link to post Share on other sites
quadfasciata Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 I know I'm not the OP, but this is something I've been wondering about, thank you Kieran. Link to post Share on other sites
timewarp Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 19 hours ago, Rainy Robin said: Oh, this makes sense as well. In other words, it's more about aligning your body's physical characteristics with your internal sense of self, rather than specifically focusing on certain types of clothes to achieve the look you're going for? Thanks for your input! That's pretty much spot on, yes. Link to post Share on other sites
daveb Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 I don't think I experience any dysphoria, but I do experience both gender envy and aesthetic appreciation. I see someone who looks certain ways and wish I could look like that and pull off the sorts of fashions they pull off. I envy their look and also appreciate it. If that makes sense. Link to post Share on other sites
fooledbysecrecy Posted February 24, 2021 Share Posted February 24, 2021 ahh! gender envy is probably the word i've haven't been able to put my finger on for the past 15 years or so, always thought the kind of clothes i like looked better on men, no unnecessary lumps and curves. but there's also the dysphoria.. and this: 21 hours ago, Kieran the Vampire said: For me gender envy is very negative. It makes me feel upset at how they look rather than appreciative. Seeing a flat chested man wearing a vest makes me angry because I'm not that and when I look in the mirror that's not what I'll see... Aesthetic attraction is more positive of "WOW! How are they so beautiful?" It's just more positive emotions. Edit: Like if someone's wearing a cool outfit I usually just am like neat, but if they're male there's also this darker emotion that goes, "Clothes will never fit you that way." And then I feel bad and angry. Link to post Share on other sites
Kurly Fryz Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 Yoo!! I've been having the same issues/realizations about gender envy vs aesthetic attraction, I personally think it's the aspect of "aesthetic attraction doesn't feel frustrating or upsetting, whereas gender envy is a form of gender dysphoria and often does feel frustrating or upsetting" that helped me understand my own feelings. Thank you for posting!! I would have been asking this question for years, hah Link to post Share on other sites
DuranDuranfan Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 For me, it’s being able to wear tank tops without a binder or sports bra underneath. *sigh* Link to post Share on other sites
shout Posted June 16, 2021 Share Posted June 16, 2021 Do I believe in "gender envy," in the way it is commonly used? Not really. People seem to use it just to describe wanting to wear someone's "look", and that is a little weird to me. I do experience something similar, though: I'll suddenly re-notice how much my body differs from cis guys, and how much harder it is for me to achieve the body that I want than cis guys (this used to happen to me constantly because I was a teenager surrounded by guys getting the puberty that I wanted :-[ ). So personally, it's a body-based thing. I think that liking someone's look isn't by definition envious... I guess it's just semantics, but that's not the definition of the word. Link to post Share on other sites
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