Master US Political Discussion Thread

[Sally]

2 hours ago, Zagadka said:

No, he can't do *everything*. He still has the power over a lot of spending, appointments, foreign policy. He is, or is supposed to be, the leader, but repeatedly folds because Manchin says no. He's not pushing for expanding the Supreme Court or removing the filibuster. What he says *matters.* In his joint address, he finally called for the PRO Act and $15 min wage. Good. I'll keep pressuring him until he does more good things.

 

Biden is the embodiment of tweeting "Healthcare is a right," while consciously choosing not to do anything about pharma prices or medicare expansion and giving $200 billion to insurance companies. His "radical healthcare agenda" is... extending the ACA. His approach to police violence is to tell protesters not to be violent and approving larger contracts for the police and continuing militarization programs while insisting that America isn't racist. He is either continuing or not going back quite to the levels of Obama, another leader who promised a lot of great sounding things and never delivered.

 

I'm taking severe issue with the media that you say I should be reading more of already declaring him "FDR" and calling his tax raises all the way back to 2017 levels the most progressive thing they've ever seen.

 

His foreign policy... tweeting about defending human rights, then selling more arms to Saudi Arabia while they blockade Yemen, propping up dictatorships throughout Latin America, going back to the coup in Venezuela...

You've brought up so many things that he hasn't done or has done and has or hasn't said that it would be exhausting to answer them.  The guy has been in office basically 3 months, but from you've said there's no point in him continuing to serve for another 3 years and 9 months, since we've seen his record already.  But with you continuing to "pressure him," I'm sure he'll step it up.  

[Zagadka]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

You've brought up so many things that he hasn't done or has done and has or hasn't said that it would be exhausting to answer them.  The guy has been in office basically 3 months, but from you've said there's no point in him continuing to serve for another 3 years and 9 months, since we've seen his record already.  But with you continuing to "pressure him," I'm sure he'll step it up.  

No, I said I'm not going to celebrate him now and wait to see what happens in 4 years. Every step for those 4 years, I will be paying attention.

 

When Biden took the nomination, they literally told us we could "push him left." I'm holding to that. I'm paying attention to what leaders on the left like Cori Bush are saying, and that is that it is a start, and we have to keep fighting and asking for more if we want him to deliver.

 

It isn't just Biden. Well, kinda, I haven't liked him since the 90s and his crime bills, and I didn't like him under Obama, or his campaign, where he campaigned on vetoing Medicare For All among other things. But I hold *all* politicians in a judgemental position and will call them out on the record of what they have and have not accomplished. I do not like or appreciate a non-critical view, especially a media that praises a leader without questioning or covering everything.

 

When the media began falling all over themselves calling Biden the most progressive leader in decades... NO. He's gotten one Covid relief bill that was lacking several things passed and he's presented a mediocre infrastructure bill. The American Jobs plan is better, but it is still just paper. It is better that he directly talked about the PRO Act, so we'll see, but I am very used to politicians saying a lot and not following through, including Biden when he was VP.

 

 

EDIT

 

Look, Biden campaigned specifically as a moderate, and finally as the counter to Bernie. He has a long political history of being disgustingly centrist. He was VP to Obama to balance the ticket with a white centrist career politician to reassure the old guard. The administration is made up of Kamala Harris and relies on Nancy Pelosi with Pete Buttigieg and Antony Blinken. These are not names that inspire trust or promise change.

 

I am *very* concerned about the midterms and the Democrats just coasting on their one stimulus bill. Biden only won the election because of Trump and the failure to handle Covid, and it was a closer election than it had any right to be.

 

I'm going to be just as critical of Democrats as I am of Republicans. If Bernie had won, I would be just as critical of him.

[daveb]

11 hours ago, Zagadka said:

I'm going to be just as critical of Democrats as I am of Republicans. If Bernie had won, I would be just as critical of him.

That's fair. Well, not just fair, but necessary, in my opinion. We need to hold all politicians accountable and watch them with a critical eye.

 

But that also means acknowledging when they do things we want or think are good for the country or the people or some specific cause or whatever. I think you can push for the best and still accept what is possible to accomplish under any given circumstances. In my book, while more progress is better, some progress is still good.

[Zagadka]

32 minutes ago, daveb said:

That's fair. Well, not just fair, but necessary, in my opinion. We need to hold all politicians accountable and watch them with a critical eye.

 

But that also means acknowledging when they do things we want or think are good for the country or the people or some specific cause or whatever. I think you can push for the best and still accept what is possible to accomplish under any given circumstances. In my book, while more progress is better, some progress is still good.

Question all authority is a good rule of thumb.

 

I'm willing to recognize the good things he has done. I'm not willing to let them call "mission accomplished" and everyone unquestioningly praise him as "the most progressive ever" and "FDR" after 1 bill and ignoring the bad things he has done. The Covid bill wasn't even that good.

 

 

Anyway, I'm getting sick of:

 

Democrats: We have to reach across the aisle and be bipartisan. It wouldn't be fair to be aggressive.

 

Republicans: All Democrats are communists who want to trans your kids, BLM is literally a terrorist organization, we're going to gerrymander every district we possibly can and push through our Supreme Court nominees in less than a week just before an election.

 

 

EDIT

 

Then things like this

 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/03/politics/dhs-partner-private-firms-surveil-suspected-domestic-terrorists/index.html

 

"The Biden administration is considering using outside firms to track extremist chatter by Americans online, an effort that would expand the government's ability to gather intelligence but could draw criticism over surveillance of US citizens."

 

We've seen this happen before. These surveillance powers are always levied against leftist groups. Empowering *private companies* to expand surveillance when we're already fighting against police abusing what they do have... this is going to be Patriot Act 2.

[Sally]

14 hours ago, Zagadka said:

Biden only won the election because of Trump and the failure to handle Covid, and it was a closer election than it had any right to be.

 

Neither of those claims are susceptible to proof.  No one but Trump was running against Biden, so we don't know whether Biden would have beaten any other Republican.  There's no rational reason to think that the election "should" have been more favorable to Biden, because the rise in rightwing thinking and political action in the US has been accelerating over at least the last four years.  That was a massive force, which actually meant that it was somewhat of a miracle that Biden won as easily as he did.   The losses in the House and the very delicate "win" in the Senate show that force to the right.   

 

Continue to be a critical watchdog of the current (and every) administration, but it makes no sense to actually deride the good that is happening.   

[Zagadka]

1 minute ago, Sally said:

Continue to be a critical watchdog of the current (and every) administration, but it makes no sense to actually deride the good that is happening.   

Deriding the good? By pointing out the relief bill was less than he had promised? I'm responding to everyone calling it "amazing" and "extremely progressive" while ignoring everything else he has and hasn't done. When he does good, I'll happily recognize it.

[rebis]

I don't know, man. The thing is, W was an evil shit, but then it didn't take very long into Obama's administration for left-leaning folks to start being heavily critical for all the things he was not getting done. After eight years of the Republicans doing everything they could to tear him down, and non-Republicans adding all of their own criticism to the mix ... you know, too many people will even still criticize Hillary Clinton, as if it was not an absolute disgrace and worldwide tragedy, that she lost to the horrible human being who somehow became president, instead.

 

I mean, I really don't mean to come at any one particular person too hard about all of this, but ... it has just been kind of bothering me lately, because I can look back over the presidential administrations since I have been an adult, and for whatever faults I would legitimately criticize Clinton and Obama for, you just saw everything from environmental protections to the economy to foreign relations suffering so much worse under the Republican presidents. So, I am kind of uneasy with seeing folks going hard at Biden for not doing well enough, already, so early in his administration.

 

And I would much rather have seen either Bernie or Warren win as a Democrat, and I don't think either of them is above criticism, either. Still ... I guess I just question how helpful it is, to go at all politicians equally as hard, as if there is no difference between them. Biden isn't perfect, but I have no problem at all being happy he's in the office, as opposed to the alternative.

[Zagadka]

To "even still criticize" Hillary? How dare anyone?

 

Trump ran on a populist platform against career politicians and their corporate interests and endless wars. The Democrats responded by running the most corporate warmongering career politician they have while making jokes about how Trump had no chance up to weeks before the election, then acted shocked when they lost.

[Still]

I don't recall criticism of Obama being severe at all: in retrospect it seems like people were far too lenient, but he had good marketing and people really hated Bush. Truth is, he delivered none of that ”change” he promised, and the drone strikes and Libya bombings were nothing short of criminal.

 

The most insulting thing about Obama's legacy might be that he ran as the anti-Bush, but now he's fine with his wife being buddies with the war criminal in question.

[Zagadka]

47 minutes ago, Still said:

I don't recall criticism of Obama being severe at all: in retrospect it seems like people were far too lenient, but he had good marketing and people really hated Bush. Truth is, he delivered none of that ”change” he promised, and the drone strikes and Libya bombings were nothing short of criminal.

Not to mention how he handled the financial crisis and the start of BLM. And immigration.

[ben8884]

1 hour ago, Zagadka said:

To "even still criticize" Hillary? How dare anyone?

 

Trump ran on a populist platform against career politicians and their corporate interests and endless wars. The Democrats responded by running the most corporate warmongering career politician they have while making jokes about how Trump had no chance up to weeks before the election, then acted shocked when they lost.

I completely agree. Trump was the only main candidate to mention the working class. No one took Trump seriously. John Oliver even said he hoped Trump would run. Biden is no FDR but then again FDR was extremely over rated in my opinion. 

[Zagadka]

So progressive. Amazing leadership. Glad we don't have bad man Trump in charge.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/biden-showers-cash-on-ex-cia-contractor-mvm-inc-to-transfer-migrants?ref=home

 

"Joe Biden once pledged to “undo the moral and national shame” of the Trump administration’s border policies—and even voiced remorse over some actions taken under President Barack Obama. But The Daily Beast has found that his administration is redoubling the federal government’s dealings with a notorious contractor accused of abusing immigrants and its own employees.

The Biden administration has, in the past month, enlarged one contract and signed another entirely new one—worth a collective $136 million—with a controversial private security and intelligence firm for the transport of migrant families and unaccompanied minors in government custody. MVM, Inc., a company previously perhaps best known for acting as a contractor for the CIA and the NSA in Iraq, has in recent years become a major player in the U.S. government’s treatment of asylum-seekers, all the while inviting scrutiny for an apparently lax approach to the safety of those in its care. During the infamous 2018 family separation policy, MVM was found to be holding children, including some separated from their parents, in an abandoned Phoenix office building."

 

13 minutes ago, ben8884 said:

I completely agree. Trump was the only main candidate to mention the working class. No one took Trump seriously. John Oliver even said he hoped Trump would run.

Lots of Democrats said that, including Hillary. Then Hillary made no effort to campaign for the working class or for most states. It was Her Turn. Trump was just a joke who was allowed on SNL and late night talk shows for entertainment. Oops.

 

Which is why right after the election, when the media started saying "this is the end of the Republican Party," I was just... ugh.

 

13 minutes ago, ben8884 said:

Biden is no FDR but then again FDR was extremely over rated in my opinion. 

True, but he did get a lot done. Sadly, the best leadership we had is, like, FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, all of whom were not great, but enacted some of the most significant financial and infrastructure reforms in our history. (and no, I will not let Republicans claim Teddy and Eisenhower while actively trying to dismantle everything they did).

[Still]

Hillary's email leak showed her campaign deliberately elevated Trump because they thought she'd have a better chance of winning against him (while at the same time undermining Bernie's campaign). Even if you consider her loss a disgrace, you have to admit she played a big part in her own downfall.

[rebis]

My point was that I think it's a waste of energy to keep talking about Hillary's campaign. Respect that opinions on the matter vary, though.

[ben8884]

6 minutes ago, rebis said:

My point was that I think it's a waste of energy to keep talking about Hillary's campaign. Respect that opinions on the matter vary, though.

I also agree with this

[Zagadka]

I didn't bring up Hilary's campaign. You did, in the context "Trump is the left's fault for criticizing Hillary, so don't criticize Biden." I'd be happy to never read the word "Hillary" again.

 

Want to get back to Biden just giving $136 million to MVM to mishandle migrants, or privatizing surveillance and policing, without anyone mentioning it?

[rebis]

21 minutes ago, Zagadka said:

I didn't bring up Hilary's campaign. You did, in the context "Trump is the left's fault for criticizing Hillary, so don't criticize Biden." I'd be happy to never read the word "Hillary" again.

 

Want to get back to Biden just giving $136 million to MVM to mishandle migrants, or privatizing surveillance and policing, without anyone mentioning it?

I'm sorry if I've done something to offend you, but I am not your enemy, in any way.

 

You misunderstood my context of mentioning Hillary, and as much as that is my fault for not being clear, I apologize for that, as well.

 

I'm not telling you to not criticize Biden. I was just daring to try to express an opinion. That does not make us enemies. At least, I hope it doesn't.

[Zagadka]

Fair enough, it doesn't make anyone enemies. I react overly strongly sometimes, but I don't take any of this personally. I'm sorry if it came off aggressive towards you specifically. But the "everything is the left's fault" line has been constant since 2016.

[rebis]

I believe in the abolishment of nations and worldwide socialist revolution. I mean, I don't know how to do that, but I believe it should be the goal, because none of us can really be free, until we all are. The circumstances of our birth should not determine our rights or opportunities, or how protected we are by law.

 

Anyway, just saying, I am not against the left. Pretty far from it, really.

[Zagadka]

Why push Biden? He won't do what he said without being reminded.

 

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/05/the-pushback-worked-biden-will-raise-the-refugee-cap-to-what-he-originally-promised/
 

Quote

 

The Pushback Worked. Biden Will Raise the Refugee Cap to What He Originally Promised.

 

President Joe Biden will officially lift the historically low cap set by the Trump administration and stick to his promise of admitting 62,500 refugees into the United States this fiscal year, he announced today. The change comes after weeks of backlash. After news in April that the administration planned to leave the number of refugees admitted at 15,000, Democratic allies, human rights activists, and refugee organizations worldwide pushed back and criticized Biden’s move. Their protests worked. 

 

 

Next up:

 

 

1 minute ago, rebis said:

I believe in the abolishment of nations and worldwide socialist revolution. I mean, I don't know how to do that, but I believe it should be the goal, because none of us can really be free, until we all are. The circumstances of our birth should not determine our rights or opportunities, or how protected we are by law.

That is certainly a statement I can agree with.

 

One of the more concerning things I've been seeing is specifically the international policy. The way we've been treating Haiti, Venezuela, Colombia, etc, and the "America first" rhetoric Biden is still using, the saber rattling against China, continuing to fund Israel and Saudi Arabia, and his refusal to waive vaccine IP etc...

[Zagadka]

And on foreign policy no one is covering... just one day for America.

 

After recognizing the Armenian genocide, turn around and just keep selling to the genocidal side.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/551577-biden-waving-restriction-blocking-aid-to-azerbaijan-over-armenia

 

 

And of course, Colombia. Biden's statement is at least consistent with how he told protesters in the US to not be violent while the cops were cracking down, so there's that.

 

 

[Zagadka]

Yay. Now we have to see this through.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-05/u-s-to-back-waiver-of-vaccine-ip-protections-at-wto-tai-says?sref=dCXr1Xoe

 

"The U.S. will support a proposal to waive intellectual-property protections for Covid-19 vaccines, joining an effort to increase global supply and access to the life-saving shots as the gap between rich and poor nations widens.

 

“We are for the waiver at the WTO, we are for what the proponents of the waiver are trying to accomplish, which is better access, more manufacturing capability, more shots in arms,” U.S. Trade Representative Katherine Tai said in an interview on Wednesday.

 

The Biden administration will now actively take part in negotiations for the text of the waiver at the World Trade Organization and encourage other countries to back it, Tai said."

[Unleash the Echidnas]

Facebook creates a fork-in-the-road moment for Trump — and the rest of us

Quote

Republicans call it a free speech issue and vow to crack down on tech companies if they regain congressional power next year. It's already begun: Republican state lawmakers in Florida and Texas have bills that would fine or sue tech companies for silencing political speech.

 

On the other side of the aisle, many Democrats, and tech critics, want regulation targeted elsewhere: algorithms that they say push lies and extremist content, poisoning democracies in the process.

 

[daveb]

Republicans say they are against "cancel culture". Isn't that what many of them are engaging in when they do things like censure the few Republicans in office who don't toe the Trump li(n)e? Aren't they trying to silence political speech in such cases?

[GingerRose]

Anyone else feel that Trump disappeared into thin air as quickly as he came into it?

 

Like Biden took office and I haven't heard of him since. Like POOF! Where'd he go? Not that I want him back, but wow.

[daveb]

4 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Anyone else feel that Trump disappeared into thin air

Not enough. I still see more about him than I want. He seems to be mostly lurking the hallways and ballrooms of Mar-a-Lago and getting on microphones there when he comes across a chance to have an audience.

 

In the meantime, Trumpism still has a strong hold on the Republican party. And the Big Lie is still floating around.

 

(I do like that Colbert doesn't reference the former guy by name anymore)  

[Zagadka]

4 hours ago, GingerRose said:

Anyone else feel that Trump disappeared into thin air as quickly as he came into it?

 

Like Biden took office and I haven't heard of him since. Like POOF! Where'd he go? Not that I want him back, but wow.

Well, he lost his platforms on social media to address his followers and spread his misinformation. His mentions dropped 91% since January. He even pissed off Fox News.

 

But the GOP is still solidly Trumpian (they just recently started supre4sing Liz Cheney for being anti-Trump), still visiting him, and MAGA still fully supports him and dreams of his 2024 campaign. They're still pushing his policy and statements, even if not directly from him. The real danger was that someone with Trump's ideology and platform will follow Trump, but not be incompetent, and do more lasting damage.

 

(And I wouldn't say he came from thin air, he was always loud and obnoxious, since the 80s).

[GingerRose]

9 minutes ago, daveb said:

Not enough. I still see more about him than I want. He seems to be mostly lurking the hallways and ballrooms of Mar-a-Lago and getting on microphones there when he comes across a chance to have an audience.

 

In the meantime, Trumpism still has a strong hold on the Republican party. And the Big Lie is still floating around.

 

(I do like that Colbert doesn't reference the former guy by name anymore)  

Do you actively watch lots of news? Where I live people have stopped talking about him in casual conversation and in the media completely.

I think his after effects of his presidency are still very strong in lingering though.

[GingerRose]

Just now, Zagadka said:

He even pissed off Fox

Wow, this is the shocker. How?

 

More lasting damage, like his vice?

[daveb]

2 minutes ago, GingerRose said:

Do you actively watch lots of news?

Some. Maybe more than I should?  

I haven't had a casual conversation for some time now.