Desiring sex *as sex*

[Gifted With Singleness]

Something occurred to me regarding all the definition debates on AVEN. It seems that the desire definition of asexuality is very frequently misunderstood, which is why the people who use it have to resort to saying something like "asexuals don't have an intrinsic desire for partnered sex for their own pleasure", rather than just, "asexuals don't experience sexual desire". I don't see this kind of thing happening on the attraction side, though. People don't feel compelled to say things like, "asexuals don't have an intrinsic sexual attraction to other people for their own pleasure". Why is that?

 

I have a theory that this has a lot to do with the fact that asexuals are often very clueless about sex. It's not just that we don't innately want sex. It's that, at least for most of us, we don't really perceive things in sexual terms. And because of this, defining asexuality as "not innately desiring partnered sex for pleasure" can feel nit-picky and arbitrary. Why does it have to be innate, and what does that mean? Why does it have to be partnered? Why does it have to be for pleasure, and what kinds of pleasure count?

 

This leads me to believe that what the desire definition is getting at is the idea of desiring sex as sex, and the seemingly nit-picky definitions are really just the best approximation we can think of for describing what that actually means. Desiring sex for the purpose of reproduction doesn't make you sexual, since that's not desiring sex as sex. Wanting to have sex because you're curious doesn't make you sexual, since that's not desiring sex as sex. Concluding that having sex would be a good idea due to some kind of cost-benefit analysis in your head doesn't make you sexual, since that's not desiring sex as sex.

 

Perhaps exploring this idea with romance might help clarify what I'm trying to say. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that someone is romantically attracted to you, but you're not romantically attracted to them (though you do see them as a friend). This person asks you out for coffee because they think it would be a good idea for a first date, and you say yes because you like coffee and want to spend time with them. They invite you to go for a walk in the park because that feels romantic to them, and you say yes because you like walking in the park and want to spend time with them. They ask you out to a fancy dinner because that feels even more romantic to them, and you say yes because you're a fan of fine dining and you want to spend time with them.

 

In this scenario, you both have a desire to do the same activities, and you both want to spend time with each other and build some kind of relationship. If you only looked at the story through that lens, you would assume that both of your desires are identical. But they're not. This other person desires these activities as romantic activities, whereas you desire these activities as friendly activities. And that perception matters. It's the difference between desiring romance as romance and desiring romance as something else. And the only way to truly understand what it means to desire romance as romance is to feel romantic attraction. This is why aromantics are often very confused about romance (which I can attest to, being an aromantic person myself).

 

This analogy isn't perfect, since romance and sex aren't quite the same. But I get the impression that there are similar dynamics at play. If you desire sex as sex (in other words, you desire sex for sexual reasons), that makes you sexual. If you desire sex as something else (that is, for non-sexual reasons), that doesn't make you sexual. The only reason we don't use that as the definition of asexuality is because it doesn't really have any explanatory power. It just feels circular.

 

This connects to another point I've noticed. It seems that explaining sexual attraction to asexuals is like explaining the color blue to a blind person. You can tell the blind person that blue light has a wavelength between 400 and 525 nm (kind of like how sex is when certain body parts fit together), but that doesn't really describe what it feels like to see blue. You can list a bunch of objects that are blue, but to a blind person, that list is going to feel arbitrary. (Why is this shirt blue but that shirt red? They're both shirts.) Similarly, listing a bunch of sexual motivations for sex can feel just as arbitrary for asexuals. (If you find it important to have sex because it heightens intimacy, that's being sexual. But if you'd prefer for your partner not to want sex but find it important to have sex with them by proxy because they're sexual and you don't want them to get frustrated because you love them, that's being asexual. But if you get off on the idea of satisfying their desires and absolutely love giving them sexual pleasure, that's being sexual. But you can also enjoy sex even without intrinsically desiring it, which would make you asexual. But why? They all sound very similar to me.)

 

So, here's my main point, which I'm curious to see others' thoughts on: There is such a thing as desiring sex as sex (which makes you sexual), which is different from desiring sex as something else (which doesn't make you sexual). However, the only possible way to intuitively understand this difference is if you experience sexual attraction. Thus, to asexual people, the differences between these two things feel arbitrary and confusing, whereas sexual people know full well that there is a world of difference between the two.

[Fraggle Underdark]

I don't tend to get into discussions of sex-positivity asexuality because I feel like it's hard to explain such subtle points to people, especially if they're not interested in hearing about them. But your post basically summarizes my feelings on what a sex-positive asexual feels, or in other words, I think you've described it accurately (though I'm demisexual not asexual).

 

Perhaps that distinction is natural for me because, being demisexual, I both know what it's like to have zero sexual desire to people that I'm otherwise attracted to, and also what it's like to not have zero sexual desire.

[LoveNotSex?]

I like your idea as well as your comparisons.

However, there is still some room for misunderstanding IMHO:
 

5 hours ago, Gifted With Singleness said:

If you desire sex as sex (in other words, you desire sex for sexual reasons), that makes you sexual.

Before I've spent lots of time reading decriptions and experiences around (a)sexuality, I would have misunderstood this by confusing sex / sexual reasons and libido / sex drive. So I would have read the sentence as "If you desire "sex" (doesn't matter whether it's sex with a partner or masturbation) because you want to scratch an itch (release sex drive), that makes you sexual)". That has been one of the main reasons why it took me so long to find out that I'm not allo anyway, and this description would have confirmed my misconception, because to me it would have sounded like emphasising "just meaningless sex to release sex drive, there's nothing more about sex".

I suppose one of the problems is that people on the ace spectrum (especially if they are new to this and questioning) don't understand what "sexual reasons" could be apart from libido, because they don't have and understand a desire for partnered sex that feels different from libido (and all the non-sexual reasons) and that for allos, there are emotional, interpersonal reasons and sexual attraction.
I don't really know how to solve such problems easily, but I think the words "partnered" sex and "innate" desire help, and maybe "sex as sex" or "for sexual reasons" need a little footnote giving such reasons and the difference between desire for partnered sex and libido.

[Janus the Fox]

I’ve heard that desiring sex for sex sake could describe sex addiction than it is to desire partnered sex to me.

 

Usually sexuality labels or left vague and open to interpretation, not to be given listed criteria.  AVEN stands as an open Asexuality community to cater everyone identifying with (a)sexuality.

[ubersnail]

I've been suspecting a lot of this myself. It's hilarious how often I found laborious metaphors about coffee and cake and ecosystems of ponds around asexual reddit. They all either simply illustrate that different people have different attractions, or tell me to just trust them that something I do feel is vaguely analogous to something I don't feel. I like your romance analogy as it serves a purpose and properly conveys that two people can both truly want to do something together, but their motivations for doing it might be different.

 

On 1/14/2021 at 9:36 PM, Gifted With Singleness said:

Similarly, listing a bunch of sexual motivations for sex can feel just as arbitrary for asexuals. (If you find it important to have sex because it heightens intimacy, that's being sexual. But if you'd prefer for your partner not to want sex but find it important to have sex with them by proxy because they're sexual and you don't want them to get frustrated because you love them, that's being asexual. But if you get off on the idea of satisfying their desires and absolutely love giving them sexual pleasure, that's being sexual. But you can also enjoy sex even without intrinsically desiring it, which would make you asexual. But why? They all sound very similar to me.)

Agree. But I guess that's exactly the problem. For allos, sex with a partner is desirable on the very basis of it being with another person, but sometimes aces don't realize this, because they've never connected masturbation with attraction to others. So, if the definition got less nitpicky, then aces with a libido might not realize they're ace. Even though, ironically, the definition is only confusing to aces. And I love that you made the important distinction that desiring sex as sex is not the same as desiring sex for physical pleasure. There are sexual activities, and lots of stuff in the kink world, that people take part in knowing they are not going to orgasm themselves, because they nonetheless find it sexually appealing or fulfilling in some way. Allos feel interactions with others sexually in a way aces don't; partnered sexual activities are more than physical pleasure to them, otherwise why go to so much effort when they could just get themselves off. Hopefully that makes sense? Of course I'm going off stuff I've read and something that I only halfway-experience myself here, so I can only say so much.