Karst Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Western culture tends to tacitly assume that being morally virtuous and being physically and mentally healthy are linked- consider the kind of language used to describe dieting and exercise, or how heroic characters in fiction are almost universally fit and able-bodied. But is there any real basis for considering staying healthy a moral achievement? And do these attitudes harm people? Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Red Panda Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, Karst said: And do these attitudes harm people? Yes. Firstly many people suffer from mental and physical ill health that they have literally no control over. When it come to the whole healthy lifestyle thing I think looking at it through a prism of morality is profoundly harmful because it just ends up guilt tripping people. Depression is a thing, eating disorders are a thing, substance abuse is a thing, etc and shaming people about them and casting them as moral failures because of the negative effects that they can cause a person in terms of how physically healthy they are is in a lot of cases going to be counterproductive. People need support not moral condemnation. Link to post Share on other sites
Galactic Turtle Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I think staying healthy is a healthy achievement. Though I guess from a Christian perspective, gluttony is a sin... so in that way it could be linked with morality? However there are plenty of fit and healthy people in the world who I likely wouldn't consider to be "morally virtuous" in a Christian sense. With rampant secularism and individualism, I think many find it more and more true that you're not likely to share very many values or "morals" with anyone you come into contact with. But there is a veneer of civility that tends to exist just because it's not convenient for us to all start killing each other... the overarching morals usually set or presumed by whichever segment of the population is in power. I think it's probably accurate to say people with disabilities have been killed off or severely mistreated simply for existing as they were for any number of reasons that made sense at the time. My aunt is certainly one of those people. I haven't given any of what I've just said much thought though. Link to post Share on other sites
Snao Cone Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 This is capitalism, baby, if they want me to be thin then they have to pay me first. 😘 (eta: this is the shitposting way of saying I don't think the pressure to be "healthy" comes from an ethical place) Link to post Share on other sites
Anthracite_Impreza Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 No, and this modern idea that poor health being treated like shit is the "natural way" have another thing coming when you realise our ancestors treated the disabled pretty damn well. https://www.livescience.com/61743-rich-paleolithic-burials.html Link to post Share on other sites
Karst Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 What about illnesses that are at least partly self-inflicted, like people harming their lungs by smoking? Are you doing anything unethical if you make yourself sick from preventable causes? Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Whoo boy that's a topic with a lot to talk about. So I guess I'll start with my perspective on being healthy. When I was a kid, I wasn't morbidly obese, but I was overweight. And I hated the feeling of it. You feel the extra weight on your bones. Your heart pounds and your lungs burn from the slightest exertion. Your body traps heat more effectively and holds it. The feeling of sweating all the time for no good reason, sickening. I never worked out or dieted. I just did a lot of physical jobs, and started watching what I ate and how I ate. I'm not beach body or anything. The only fat left in my body concentrates itself in a tire around my waist. But I weigh 155 pounds and I'm 6'3. I can lift my own body weight. To me, that's enough. I don't need to be herculean or olympic bodied. But I also adopted a mindset some time back. Everybody has potential in their lives. Be it physical or mental. For myself, I'd consider it a shame to live my whole life and not understand what my potential was, or in other words, find out the actual limits to what I can do are. So when it comes to working when I'm tired, or carrying that one thing that I know will cause a bit of exertion, I go for it. To know the very maximum of what one can do at the time is an achievment in understanding and knowing who you are. Knowing your limits is a sort of freedom in a way. That you pushed so hard you reached the barrier of what was possible. To me, it'd be like getting into a starship and reaching the very edge of our universe. Reaching the absolute limit of what could be reached. My body may as well be a small sized universe anyway, considering it's a colony of cells and other organisms all working together to make "me." So that's my personal take on being healthy. But what about the ethics? There's no black and white answer. For instance. A smoker comes down with heart disease as a result of smoking. They need a new heart. They'll get a new heart from a donor. But they'll keep smoking afterwards. Ruin the new heart and land themselves back to square one. They'd ruin the sacrifice of the life that chose to give that heart. Ethically, this person would be wrong. And they'd be wrong for putting certain doctors into the position of ethical dilemma, since I personally know some doctors who refuse to operate and replace the organs of smokers who they know will just keep smoking. Even if they choose not to operate, they still feel bad for it. But this touches onto choice. Everybody has a choice in how they maintain themselves. They've the right to choose what happens to their body. In the ethics department of a smoker who won't stop smoking with failing organs, I'd argue that if they choose what happens to their bodies, they also choose the consequences that comes with, even if it's death. And they shouldn't be saved unless they make the life choice to take better care of themselves, or at minimum, try. Much of our medical systems are turning into a revolving door, with many people neglecting their health or taking care of themselves. When over half the population of north americans are obese or morbidly obese, which raises blood pressure, opens the door to heart disease and type two diabetus, think of the strain that would be relieved from the medical system if one hundred and fifty million people suddenly decided to keep in slightly better shape? You could argue that there are ethical motivations there. I'd also be willing to ponder that physical and mental health are tied together. If somebody is physically unwell for reasons of their own creation, then it's a signature that something is also unwell within the mind, because under normal circumstances the mind would exert a level of control to maintain the body into an average healthy range. I don't think that everybody should neccessarily strive to be olympian. That's where society and celebrities warp the ideal and push it too far. But there's also nothing wrong if somebody wishes to pursue that either. Fictional characters are manifestions of greater ideals however. That's why in fiction so often do we see the ideals of maximum fitness and definitions of beauty taken to their maximum. We've being doing it since we could create fiction. We've made ideals to strive to and reach for. There's a fine line between striving unrealistically, and striving to what's sane. In certain cases, it's ethical to be healthy, and unethical to be unhealthy by your own hand. But it never hurt anybody to maintain decent levels of health. You don't logistically lose anywhere by staying in shape. But it shouldn't be forced on anybody either. We all make decisions, we all pay the toll for making them. Link to post Share on other sites
MoraDollie Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I've worked in healthcare for a little over two years at this point. So this topic is a little bit complicated for me. As a healthcare worker (having worked in a hospital and pain management clinic), yes, I want my patients to be healthy. HOWEVER, I understand there's often many factors impacting it in some shape or form (chronic illness, invisible illness, some kind of disability, mental health, etc.). For that reason, I want my patients to be as healthy and happy as possible, within reason, all factors considering. (tw/cw - body image below in the paragraph) I am not going to force some magical body standard on you. If say you are morbidly obese, I will come up with a plan that is work-able because there are so many health consequences to morbid obesity. If you are thin as a twig I am going to come up with a plan to make you within the normal weight range for your height (again, all factors into consideration like disabilities, mental health, etc.). There's serious medical consequences to both ends of the weight spectrum and I wish to god people would realize this. It is not fatphobic to sit down a 300+ pound patient and tell them "You are going to die if you don't try to lose some of this excessive weight". People wanna circle jerk and sceram "OMG DONT TELL THEM WHAT TO DO!" but when you're literally a heart attack waiting to happen? Shit's gotta change. As healthcare workers, we are here to help keep YOU healthy as possible with all factors considering. If you are about to drop dead because of how little weight is on you, I am here to help you figure out a plan. Eating disorders (a big cause for excessive thin-ness) is a HUGE killer in the mental illness community. I have two EDs so I'm well aware of the damage they can do. The reality is, many Americans (speaking from this perspective since I live in America) DO NOT know how to actually read nutritional labels. Many DO NOT know that the FDA allows numbers to be up to 20% inaccurate (so that 100 calorie item could actually be anywhere from 80-120 calories). If you need help learning how to read these please tell me so I know how to help you out better. Yes, it's probably going to take time to find your "goldilocks" healthcare professional (physical and mental health). That's why it's so important to look up doctors on healthcare review websites (there's a few floating around the web) to see how the clinic overall treats the patient. Link to post Share on other sites
Morays Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, E said: Much of our medical systems are turning into a revolving door, with many people neglecting their health or taking care of themselves. When over half the population of north americans are obese or morbidly obese, which raises blood pressure, opens the door to heart disease and type two diabetus, think of the strain that would be relieved from the medical system if one hundred and fifty million people suddenly decided to keep in slightly better shape? You could argue that there are ethical motivations there. Part of the problem with this is that many people aren't able to afford healthier, less processed foods, and/or they live in food deserts where highly processed foods are the only kind available. Obesity also tends to create a self-perpetrating spiral in which greater weight makes it more difficult to effectively exercise, in turn further enabling weight gain. Many people also aren't able to afford or access healthcare that might help them address their obesity and/or the comorbid issues caused by it. So I would argue this isn't as cut-and-dried as "obese people are obese through their own negligence." A lot of systemic failures are at play too. Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, SocialMorays said: Part of the problem with this is that many people aren't able to afford healthier, less processed foods, and/or they live in food deserts where highly processed foods are the only kind available. Obesity also tends to create a self-perpetrating spiral in which greater weight makes it more difficult to effectively exercise, in turn further enabling weight gain. Many people also aren't able to afford or access healthcare that might help them address their obesity and/or the comorbid issues caused by it. So I would argue this isn't as cut-and-dried as "obese people are obese through their own negligence." A lot of systemic failures are at play too. God no. I know the complexities of the situation. Nothing in life is ever cut and dry.There's a hundred thousand different threads no matter where you look. If all you have are shit foods to eat, then what are you going to do? Grow a garden? Well in some states or provinces, in towns and cities, gardens are illegal. Oh no, some Monsanto seeds blew into your garden or field, better lawer up and break out your million dollars to challenge the incoming lawsuit for growing their seeds on your land without their permission. Being unhealthy is a state of mind at it's base. But it's composed of much more. Culture, society, family values, economics. Especially economics these days. Pharmacuticals benefit greatly from unhealthy people. Why get businesses to sell less crap food and healthier options when you could gouge somebody's money through the medical bills needed to pay for all the meds they need to keep themselves alive or halfways functioning? At it's actual core it's composed of two primary issues. The individual, and the greater churning dumpster fire above him, economics. Link to post Share on other sites
Morays Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Just now, E said: The individual, and the greater churning dumpster fire above him, economics. This might be one of the best summaries of economics I've seen, seconded only by Shevek in The Dispossessed saying that reading an economics textbook was "like listening to somebody interminably recounting a long and stupid dream... all the operations of capitalism were as meaningless to him as the rites of a primitive religion, as barbaric, as elaborate, and as unnecessary." But I digress. Link to post Share on other sites
Sherlocks Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Karst said: Western culture tends to tacitly assume that being morally virtuous and being physically and mentally healthy are linked- consider the kind of language used to describe dieting and exercise, or how heroic characters in fiction are almost universally fit and able-bodied. But is there any real basis for considering staying healthy a moral achievement? And do these attitudes harm people? I do not think there is anything ethical about being healthy. As if you destroy your health and die that is kind of up to you. Now in regards to say your "Off spring" you should try to keep them as healthy as humanly possible. As in if that child is sick with say Asthma get them the proper care as best you can. Make sure your child eats healthy and get them to be healthy and exercise so they stay in good shape. In terms of if your child has a disabling issue like say no leg ensure they have medical tools to A.move around B.exersise whatever muscles they can despite being disabled. If say your child has speech problems take them to speech class. As far as things like smoking, if you smoke fine but like dont do it around your kids and end up giving them second hand smoke. The reason they push dieting so much is becuase the world is developing an obsesity crises which I think is very much to blame on a number of factors, not just poor eating habits. Over the years fast food has become more common but also the manufacturers who make our food like say chicken and meat have been adding all these added sugars, salts and chemicals so realistacally you cant even get a good steak anymore without it having all sorts of additives. Also while the minumum wage has slowly increased it can not match the cost of living. Now I know people argue you should be able to raise a family on minumum wage(Which I find dumb), but even if you disagree with that you should at least be able to rent a one bedroom apartment as a single person on minumum wage and YOU CANT! So over the years people have become overworked, turn to fast food since they have no time to cook, and at home meals are loaded with a bunch of unneeded sugar becuase companys want ways of making food cheaply and ripping off customers for a couple of extra dollars. Now this also leaves less time for say excersise, but given the other conditions I think thats the least worst factor contributing to this type of dilemma. Link to post Share on other sites
Karst Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, CBC said: The way I see it, I am under no ethical obligation to maintain any degree of mental or physical health for anyone else's sake. It's fine to promote the idea that people should respect themselves enough to take good care of their bodies and minds, and remind them that their quality of life may be better if they do, but they're under no obligation. When our choices directly affect the wellbeing of other people is where we have an obligation. Don't smoke around non-smokers. Don't get behind the wheel of a vehicle if you're drunk or high or haven't slept in 30 hours or have a health condition that makes driving dangerous. Feed your children a healthy, balanced diet. Etc. But no I don't we have an obligation to be 'healthy'. My body is my body, your body is your body. This is why I don't like arguments that we're obligated to even remain alive if we don't want to. I see where you're coming from, but I also wonder if we, as human beings, have an obligation to stay healthy and alive so that we can help others. If you die X years earlier than you would have otherwise because of your Poor Life Choices, are you robbing the community of X years of what you would have contributed otherwise? Link to post Share on other sites
Morays Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, Karst said: I also wonder if we, as human beings, have an obligation to stay healthy and alive so that we can help others. If you die X years earlier than you would have otherwise because of your Poor Life Choices, are you robbing the community of X years of what you would have contributed otherwise? I'm not sure how an individual can rob a community of something that it never had. By that logic, am I engaging in theft by spending this evening debating on a forum instead of doing volunteer work? If so, we're all thieves. I mean, I could abstain from all possible Poor Life Choices and still get hit by a bus tomorrow. Would the bus driver be responsible for stealing my remaining lifespan from my community? Should the driver be convicted of theft in addition to manslaughter? Following this line of thinking does get a little absurd for me. Then again, I was never really one for utilitarian ethics. I think individuals are more than the sum of their labor, and goodness is more than a calculated allotment of energy. Link to post Share on other sites
Karst Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 1 minute ago, SocialMorays said: I'm not sure how an individual can rob a community of something that it never had. By that logic, am I engaging in theft by spending this evening debating on a forum instead of doing volunteer work? If so, we're all thieves. I mean, I could abstain from all possible Poor Life Choices and still get hit by a bus tomorrow. Would the bus driver be responsible for stealing my remaining lifespan from my community? Should the driver be convicted of theft in addition to murder? Following this line of thinking does get a little absurd for me. Then again, I was never really one for utilitarian ethics. I think individuals are more than the sum of their labor, and goodness is more than a calculated allotment of energy. I have a tendency to think in utilitarian terms- I'm a scientist by training, and I like it when things are quantifiable. Still, I get that it's not, by any means, the One Correct Approach to ethical questions. Link to post Share on other sites
daveb Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Moved here from Hot Box, as it seems like a better fit, as a philosophical discussion. DaveB Hot Box co-mod Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Karst said: I see where you're coming from, but I also wonder if we, as human beings, have an obligation to stay healthy and alive so that we can help others. If you die X years earlier than you would have otherwise because of your Poor Life Choices, are you robbing the community of X years of what you would have contributed otherwise? The only problem with that line of thinking is that it delves purely into hypotheticals. That if an individual didn't die to poor life choices, that they'd somehow live on to be a greater benefit automatically. With hypotheticals, the tables can turn either way. Said individual could go on to be a mass murderer, or do nothing at all. Regardless, everything we do creates consequences we can't comprehend in the present, let alone the immensity of the future. It's a moot point to ponder could have's because of their immensity. Even the death of an individual at a specific time creates specific consequences for many other individuals. And I'd even say that the community isn't owed anything by default. So many of the problems we have in society stems from the mindset that we owe something. We owe taxes. We somehow owe shit parents even though they did a terrible job of raising their children. We suppossedly owe to a system that will happily dispose of you once your prime age is done and then hope you die before you need to get paid your pension. Sex is owed, love is owed. Almost nothing is truly owed. If people could understand that, then their actions would be done purely off decent intent, and we'd be far better off on a societal level for having fostered relations founded on trust, understanding and care rather than obligation and guilt trips. Link to post Share on other sites
Purple Red Panda Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 8 hours ago, Karst said: If you die X years earlier than you would have otherwise because of your Poor Life Choices, are you robbing the community of X years of what you would have contributed otherwise? This rather assumes I was going to be doing anything worthwhile 😉 Link to post Share on other sites
vmdraco Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 I've heard from one too many people that there is a moralistic tie to it, but I disagree immensely. I have unfortunately also seen art of obese people being used as a metaphor for gluttony and sloth, which made me so mad I saw red. We have a system that perpetuates obesity due to lifestyle and resource availability, and people have the gall to blame them for it? Some of it could be due to overeating, but considering that ingredients in fast food and sugar have been scientifically linked to encouraging the brain to eat more, I don't think that's a good enough excuse either. We can't control what goes into our food unless we go 100% organic or raw, which is not a choice many people can make without going bankrupt. I think part of it is tied to shame on top of all the great points being addressed here. I'm a twinky shit so I don't really have experience on the matter, but what I will say is being fat/obese is not inherently bad on its own. Looking overweight/obese isn't bad or harmful, because having a body that isn't skinny does not mean someone isn't beautiful. People come in all shames and sizes regardless of what they eat. Humans are not a one-size fits all. I think not judging someone by their looks is step one. I will leave you all with this stunning artwork, which I think is relevant and important for people to see in regards to this topic on what constitutes a moral obligation to abide by health standards, as well as beauty standards: (Possible TW as this is a nude image, but only from the back and not the front) Spoiler Lemanjah by Brazilian artist Marcelo Jorge Link to post Share on other sites
MoraDollie Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Food economics is an incredibly complex subject. Those who are poor (espicially if they only have insurance via state and federal programs) have a very hard time finding doctors who will take their state/federal given insurance (long story short the reason for this is that clinics who accept this type of insurance doesn't get paid very much). I have an off-shoot of medicaid and I had to call 10+ clinics before I found a dentist that actually took my health insurance. Dentistry by itself is gravely underestimated with how important it is to maintain good dental health and hygiene because not taking care of this body can lead to a heart attack or stroke. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I don't know about ethical, but yes. I believe that any good contributor to society should not become a dead weight to it. No pun intended. I don't see how ethics play in this, but to me it is socially responsible. I see a 400lb person on a motorized wheelchair chain smoking cigarettes while collecting welfare, and shake my head at tax payers dollars being wasted on such a person. For the most part, morbid obesity is a choice. Health is a choice. It is highly taxing to an economy, to deal with the fall out of those not taking care of themselves. I sort of see it like a parent too lazy to parent, shipping their kids to school expecting their teachers to raise them. Do I feel this warrants their ridicule? Absolutely not. However, to state most don't have control over it when it's the opposite to me, is just as bad as shaming as you're enabling. Link to post Share on other sites
vmdraco Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I believe that any good contributor to society should not become a dead weight to it. No pun intended. 41 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: I see a 400lb person on a motorized wheelchair chain smoking cigarettes while collecting welfare, and shake my head at tax payers dollars being wasted on such a person. 53 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: It is highly taxing to an economy, to deal with the fall out of those not taking care of themselves. 40 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: to state most don't have control over it when it's the opposite to me, is just as bad as shaming as you're enabling. I believe that people should not just exist for the benefit of the economy. I think people have agency within themselves to have the right to exist, period. It's odd to me that you're valuing whether or not someone is wasting taxpayer dollars as if their life isn't as important as yours is, or that they don't deserve to live comfortably because you personally find their weight and habits distasteful. How do you know what's going on in that person's life to be 400 pounds, chain smoking, and collecting welfare? Do you think people intentionally get there for shits and giggles? This person may have a binge eating disorder, and/or health issues that keep them bounded to a wheelchair, which isn't exactly a useful machine for cardio. Perhaps chain-smoking is one of the only coping mechanisms that work when everything else has went to shit. Not to mention, that if you have a disability and go above a certain amount of money in the bank, you lose your benefits. I've seen my own grandmother become obese because of her leukemia and being constantly bed-ridden. Poverty isn't a choice. Anyone can hit rock bottom. It's a social hierarchy that is nearly impossible to escape, which leads to the degradation of one's health, mental and physical. Some aspects are choices which perpetuate the long-standing problems; I'm not saying that being 400 lbs and chain smoking doesn't have consequences because it sure as fuck does, but I would hope that regardless of ones choices they should be afforded the same courtesy as someone who isn't 400 pounds and collecting welfare. Your comments towards someone who is fits this description comes across as judgemental to me, which I hope I'm wrong about. Link to post Share on other sites
Jusey1 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 When it comes to being healthy... All I ask is to at least follow the base necessities of staying healthy. Mostly so you can live longer and don't have to worry about getting sick. Beyond that, no. I do not think perfection is necessary nor is it ideal for every person. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 34 minutes ago, vmdraco said: weight and habits distasteful. They are literally incredibly burdensome and costly to care for. Even China stopped the bulk of their plastic recyclables imports when they realized the staggering human cost of doing so which cost their economy far more in the long term due to the medical toll being exposed to certain chemicals had on workers. 34 minutes ago, vmdraco said: Do you think people intentionally get there for shits and giggles? For most, its a series of choices. 34 minutes ago, vmdraco said: Some aspects are choices Morbid obesity to me is one of them. Keep in mind, this is solely my opinion. 34 minutes ago, vmdraco said: Your comments towards someone who is fits this description comes across as judgemental They are. I see someone 700lbs, and see someone who let themselves go. I see a parent with morbidly obese kids, and I see irresponsible parents. Them stating they can't help it, are excusing the fact they are the ones buying the food, thus choosing to enable the behavior. Sorry, but sticking a half dozen cheeseburgers down one's mouth daily vs healthier choices, are choices. To state its the foods fault, or society or commercials would be silly. I would never ridicule someone obese, but the mindset where they are trying to show that its not their fault, is ridiculous to me. I get fat, and would own it. I am fat and proud. Not voluptuous or fluffy. Pretending morbid obesity isn't a major problem has serious ramifications, both economically, socially and for those forced to pick up the pieces due to the medical fall out. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Honestly. Allowing a 10 year old to get so big they get diabetes and heart disease (due to their profuse eating of highly unhealthy foods) isn't abuse? Isn't immoral? Unethical? Link to post Share on other sites
vmdraco Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: They are. ... Nice. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I see someone 700lbs, and see someone who let themselves go. If I see someone who is 700 lbs, I think "Wow, they are very large. Huh, that must not be fun. Societal expectations of what constitutes a person to look a certain way might impact my biases, so I will try my best not to let that bias impact my view of them as a person. Well, better go to the bank now." 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Sorry, but sticking a half dozen cheeseburgers down one's mouth daily vs healthier choices, are choices. Way to miss my point, man. You're making stereotypes off of someone's weight just by first impressions alone. Just because TLC likes to sensationalize My 600 Pound Life doesn't mean that it's everyone's story, or even the whole story. I will point out the systematic issues of poverty again that I mentioned before, because that is a huge issue for those in poorer communities. Yes, a lot of it is choice-based, but how much of that choice is based on the area that they cannot leave because of economic struggle and what they can afford, and what amount of choice is out of their control? A lot of it is interconnected. I personally just disliked the very black and white thinking you're using. I was trying to point out nuance, rather than just assume that someone who is obese must be shoving half a dozen cheeseburgers down their throat. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: To state its the foods fault, or society or commercials would be silly. When I stated that fast food and sugar highjack your brain, I wasn't saying that to be silly or to excuse behavior. Food like that is literally addictive, and some people are more susceptible to it than others. When you have someone in poverty, and most food that's cheap has a lot of those chemicals in it, no fucking shit they get fat. I don't remember where I read it, but sugar and chemicals found in a lot of fast food actually impacts your hunger signals and doesn't tell you when you're full, therefore enabling you to keep eating when it tastes good. This is something in the brain that we are hardwired to have as mammals since we crave high fructose content. Companies put that stuff in food because it tastes good so people buy more, and that's one of the many reasons why there is an obesity issue in the world now. In fact, some people remain slender even when consuming these products because of genetics (you might have heard of the term "skinny fat" before). Slender people who eat a lot of junk exclusively are as unhealthy as someone who consumes the fast food and looks physically overweight. Hell, I'm probably "skinny fat" A lot of it is internal health. But everyone likes to make a mockery of those that are fat because it's not the ideal beauty standard, especially for women. I could eat junk all day and no one bats an eye, but if someone who looks fat eats some Doritos they get the stink eye. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: I would never ridicule someone obese, but the mindset where they are trying to show that its not their fault, is ridiculous to me. I get fat, and would own it. I am fat and proud. Not voluptuous or fluffy. I... don't know where this is coming from. Literally everyone I've ever interacted with who are comfortable with their bodies being fat have owned it, and loved it. Idk if you're pulling a strawman of my point or not because I don't??? Understand??? 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Pretending morbid obesity isn't a major problem has serious ramifications, both economically, socially and for those forced to pick up the pieces due to the medical fall out. No where did I ever insinuate that it wasn't, for children or adults. Obviously for a lot of people being obese is bad for you. All I said was that their weight and health issues shouldn't discount them from being judged for their appearance when you don't know their health records. I understand that from your view, their choices impacted them in a negative way, and I agree on that part. I'm sure for most people who are over 400 lbs, it is a struggle. But not all people who look obese are unhealthy (I'm not talking those who are morbidly obese, just the everyday American), and from my perspective it felt like you were coming from a place of shame when they already must feel that shame from not looking like a thin person - the ideal person. I wonder how they would react on hearing those things, and how it must feel to be assumed gluttonous and irresponsible just for appearing a certain way to a stranger. I guess when I see my mom struggle with her diabetes, after having issues for years trying to lose weight after raising my sister and me and being a loving mom, I come to have a different perspective on how someone's weight can both be a health and social consequence. I'm just tired of fat people being seen as an example of being bad, or glorifying something unhealthy when most people's idea of what being fat is unhealthy in and of itself (meet any teenage girl who is a normal weight and you'll get what I mean lol). Also, as a general side note: I'm not saying all of this so I can be like Ultra Woke or some horseshit. God knows I hate that performative crap. I'm being 100% genuine. These sorts of topics can make some points come across that way so I felt the need to address it. I don't want to come across as bad faith. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 2 hours ago, vmdraco said: what amount of choice is out of their control? Sorry, but 600lbs of weight, is a full loss of control. Very few have glandular issues causing such growth. It more than not, is due to overeating. A choice. Morbid obesity is not for the most part, a disability. It's a lifestyle choice. A highly self destructive and costly one, to boot. 2 hours ago, vmdraco said: Food like that is literally addictive Its also a choice. To deny the choice is denying anyone has any control to drive over to a McDonald's, to order a meal. The car didn't drive itself. 2 hours ago, vmdraco said: But everyone likes to make a mockery of those that are fat because it's not the ideal beauty standard, especially for women. I don't agree with the mockery, but also don't agree with telling a woman who is 350lbs, modeling while stuffing her face, that what she is doing is perfectly fine. Its not. She is destroying her body. Sure it's her choice, but to deny the destruction would be lying to her. Her choice comes with consequences, including a society's judgment that she's a slob, lazy and overeats. 2 hours ago, vmdraco said: shouldn't discount them from being judged for their appearance That's not how humans work. If I am 7 foot 11, people will stare. 600lbs. People will stare. If I can't fit on an aircraft seat. People will stare. Some will even laugh. Most will have the same mindset. Judging them on a highly unhealthy and sedentary lifestyle. 2 hours ago, vmdraco said: or glorifying something unhealthy It is unhealthy. There is nothing being glorified. Its a fact. Humans aren't built to be morbidly obese. Livers aren't designed to deal with those levels of pressure. Hearts. Bodies in general. Sure one doesn't care of themselves, but the point that bothers me is they don't care for the people who are then forced to care for them. Kind of like an anti mask wearer for covid feeling entitled to medical care, when they get hospitalized. That person is exactly why doctors are overwhelmed and space is constrained to begin with, causing some of these deaths! To be careless, is bad. There is a reason so many have poor body images. Low confidence. But for one to state this is fat shaming. Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 You know, there's a lot of people here talking about crap diets that contribute to weight gain, and that's partially true. But it isn't at the same time. I went from being overweight admittedly probably to underweight for my size, and I'm a north americaner like all the others who have access to crap food. And live in the north, where shipments of healthy stuff are an earnest pain to get in the winter. I eat an entire pizza at least one day of the week. I live off canned soups and rationings of bread, which are both bad for you because of their salt levels, preservatives, flour and other grains, and carbs. I mix that up with whatever veggies I can find and throw in leaner meats when I can. This is admittedly probably a shit diet. It's showing in my vitamin deficiencies. But the saving grace mainly is two things I'd bet. I consume extremely low levels of sugar. Proccessed and refined cane sugar is the source of so many problems for health and weight gain. The biggest factor though is movement. I constantly move and work and I spread what I eat throughout the day so that I don't just dump calories into my system into one shot. The portions that I dump into my system are all burned off because I move so much. That's the other big killer in north america. When you combine more sedentry lifestyles with sugar and crap foods, weight gain is pretty much inevitable. But it's hardly impossible to avoid, even if what's available is crap food. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, E said: The portions that I dump into my system are all burned off because I move so much. Main reason so many at advanced ages in some countries are still razor sharp, whereas most in western society, will be in nursing homes with rapidly declining health and mental capacities overwhelming the already overburdened system. Covid-19 put a magnifying glass on that very issue. Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Main reason so many at advanced ages in some countries are still razor sharp, whereas most in western society, will be in nursing homes with rapidly declining health and mental capacities overwhelming the already overburdened system. Covid-19 put a magnifying glass on that very issue. No doubt a factor, yes. Since I live in the country, usually what I see is people ending up in homes when they're in their eighties. It seems like most out in rural areas keep moving relatively well up into their seventies before other breakdowns put them down. But then again there's another perspective to look at here too. We can look at dietary issues and talk about aspects of ethics to them, which I think there are. But we take those ethics into account solely based off the assumption that if a person where physically healthy that they'd be less of a tax on an already failing medical system. Which could be true to a degree. There's a wonderful man that I know who works in a lumber mill. And I admittedly don't know how he does it. He sleeps three hours a day and his shifts rotate every single day. And it's sad to say but I'd wager how he copes is just by eating. So he's huge. And yet he still works like a machine, and in truth, how his heart hasn't stopped yet I don't know. Flip the tables. I'm only twenty eight. Under normal circumstances I'm on the road working every single day, just about as much as the man I mentioned. And here my heart's already come down with either some form of heart disease or a unique form or pneumonia. It's likely due to the fact that I don't stop moving or rest much, and that my sleeping patterns aren't correct, since I get all the oddball shifts at work. In medical fields, nurses consistently burn their hearts out the fastest due to the length and variation of how their shifts constantly flip. Hypothetically we'd probably see an improvement on medical percentages if people made more active efforts to take care, and yet in a way I feel like that's an illusionary assumption, just like age. People assume that because you're older, you've more chances of dying, when that's factually not true. There's practically a dozen co-workers in my workplace who are all older than me, out shape for whatever reasons, smoke, drink, and yet funny enough I'm the one who ends up on the medical wait lists because my body is breaking down much faster than theirs despite how much I try to keep a watch of my health. Maybe there's no correlation there, but it's funny to think about. Link to post Share on other sites
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