Secret police cars

[Lichley]

12 minutes ago, Sir_The_Last said:

When dealing with humans  nothing is ever going to be perfect.  So given that abuse of power will happen  I do not believe  we have a way of stopping all abuse of power. 

It’s called calling people out publicly and making others aware of their actions. Is it perfect? No, of course not, but it’s better than doing nothing and just letting them get away with it because you believe always going to be someone corrupt. It’s not going to stop every corrupt act, but it reduces the overall number of corrupt acts. Like stopping me pyramid scheme doesn’t stop all pyramid schemes, but now there’s one less con artist in the world and people who were considering starting pyramid schemes are more likely to be deterred from doing so.

[Philip027]

Quote

Stop projecting.  Breonna Taylor is dead because plainclothes officers didn't identify themselves.

Not really a comparable situation, but ok.

[will123]

Ontario's provincial and municipal police forces have used unmarked or 'ghost' cars since I was a kid in the 70s. Used to be able to tell them apart from civilian versions of the same models since they usually had the base/stock hubcaps and very little in the way of chrome on them. Nobody in their right mind would by a car equipped like this LOL

[will123]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:35 PM, Philip027 said:

I never understood why police cars should have to be marked.  All that does is make sure people only follow the speed limit (or avoid breaking other traffic laws) whenever they see obvious police cars around.

 

Undercover/sting police work is a thing; might as well get used to it.  There's one primary reason that it happens -- it catches people who would otherwise not be caught because they just stop/hide their unlawful behavior whenever they see police.

 

Uhh, no... what we want is for them to obey the traffic laws at all times, not only when they see a police car around.

 

Yes, some people will just break the laws regardless.  That's going to happen whether or not the cars are marked.

Does the SQ use unmarked cars?

[will123]

21 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

They're normal here. We go even further, unmarked trucks so police can see into truck cabs. Yep you can get full size trucks with hidden blues and twos. I've seen TV shows where they catch drivers cooking meals whilst driving 

Being fair, most people don't break the law if there's fully liveried police vehicles about. 

The nearest city to me has an unmarked crew cab for traffic work.

 

[will123]

18 hours ago, Howard said:

To me, it's more of a safety issue than a trust issue and I'm divided on the question. On one hand, unmarked cars do help policing and catching people who would have normaly gotten away with it. On the other hand, they are more difficult to spot which makes it harder to get out of their way when in pursuit, leading to accidents that could be avoided.

They usually have blue/red lights mounted behind the grill, windshield and back glass. When they're lit up, you know it's the cops.

[will123]

3 hours ago, iff said:

I have no real feeling either way about how comfortable I am withunmarked police cars. Never really given it a lot of thought

I'm the same way, when you've been aware of them all your life, it's not a big deal. As a percentage, I have no idea how much of the OPP fleet is unmarked. Usually quite visible in Ontario as they're plain grey Dodge Chargers since GM stopped building RWD Impalas.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lichley said:

It’s called calling people out publicly and making others aware of their actions. Is it perfect? No, of course not, but it’s better than doing nothing and just letting them get away with it because you believe always going to be someone corrupt. It’s not going to stop every corrupt act, but it reduces the overall number of corrupt acts. Like stopping me pyramid scheme doesn’t stop all pyramid schemes, but now there’s one less con artist in the world and people who were considering starting pyramid schemes are more likely to be deterred from doing so.

I believe the law itself has a system to  dealing with abuse of power.   

[Philip027]

1 hour ago, will123 said:

Does the SQ use unmarked cars?

I don't know what SQ means.

[will123]

9 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I don't know what SQ means.

Surete du Quebec 

[Philip027]

I still don't know what that means.  I'm guessing some police force?

 

I've only just immigrated here to live with my spouse; I grew up in Hawaii most of my life XD

[Alaska Native Manitou]

3 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Not really a comparable situation, but ok.

Then let me put it into very simple terms.  I am the most law-abiding person imaginable.  Other than once trying a cigarette at 11, I have never broken any laws.  How dare you imply that I'm some kind of criminal for being wary of government secrecy when police are literally getting away with murder.

[Philip027]

27 minutes ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

Then let me put it into very simple terms.  I am the most law-abiding person imaginable.  Other than once trying a cigarette at 11, I have never broken any laws.  How dare you imply that I'm some kind of criminal for being wary of government secrecy when police are literally getting away with murder.

I'm not saying people have no reason to be afraid of police.  Where on earth did you get that idea from?

 

I'm saying that unless people are secretly breaking the law when they think there's no police around (which does happen, a lot -- and is precisely the reason why unmarked cars get used in the first place), they have no reason to be any more afraid of unmarked cars than they are by marked cars.  Marked cars have never stopped corrupt cops from abusing their power.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

8 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Where on earth did you get that idea from?

 

On 11/19/2020 at 10:36 PM, Philip027 said:

The thing is, the only reason I can see for the unmarked vehicles specifically making people uneasy... is if they're the type to only obey traffic laws when they see an obvious police car around.

 

They are exactly the type of people that these unmarked vehicles are trying to catch in the first place.

 

[Philip027]

I'll highlight the key word for you:

 

Quote

The thing is, the only reason I can see for the unmarked vehicles specifically making people uneasy... is if they're the type to only obey traffic laws when they see an obvious police car around.

 

They are exactly the type of people that these unmarked vehicles are trying to catch in the first place.

I'm honestly not sure what else would cause people to have a problem with unmarked police vehicles while at the same time having no problem whatsoever with the marked ones.  Even if there are other reasons, and even if this one isn't true for you, I can guarantee you this is the most prevalent reason -- and I can't say I have a whole lot of sympathy for the people who think laws only apply to them when they can see an obvious police car nearby.

[Sean_Bird]

  

1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

I'm honestly not sure what else would cause people to have a problem with unmarked police vehicles while at the same time having no problem whatsoever with the marked ones.  Even if there are other reasons, and even if this one isn't true for you, I can guarantee you this is the most prevalent reason -- and I can't say I have a whole lot of sympathy for the people who think laws only apply to them when they can see an obvious police car nearby.

It looks like you're from Canada? Just a heads up, police operate very differently in the US compared to most other countries. Just a quick google search shows that law enforcement in Canada killed 36 people in 2017. By contrast, in the US, law enforcement killed 1,767 that same year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country#2010s

 

In the US, police harming/killing POC without provocation is a very real threat to everyday Americans, and getting pulled over for a traffic infringement can lead to more than a ticket. When people express unease about police (even if it's just for traffic), it usually has nothing to do with whether they're breaking the law or not, but a variety of different factors such as their skin tone, their language, their neighborhood, etc. Police have repeatedly shown disregard for American lives, especially poc, so the idea of police not only running around visibly marked but also running around not marked can be concerning. Compared to other countries they don't have a lot a lot of training, and on top of that, they get military grade equipment they're not always trained properly on how to use, and in the recent bout of protests this year they've shown that they'll use that military equipment on civilians-- peaceful or not.

 

All that being said-- OP was asking if unmarked police cars have a place in a free society, not just the US. With the proper training and oversight? Potentially. In the US? (where this was posted) That starts crossing into sketch territory. I suspect some of the disagreements in this thread are related to where people live, and thusly their experiences with police will be vastly different.

[Howard]

6 hours ago, will123 said:

They usually have blue/red lights mounted behind the grill, windshield and back glass.

The fact that they are not mounted on the rooftop makes it less visible than a squad car.

[Philip027]

Quote

It looks like you're from Canada? Just a heads up, police operate very differently in the US compared to most other countries. Just a quick google search shows that law enforcement in Canada killed 36 people in 2017. By contrast, in the US, law enforcement killed 1,767 that same year. 

I'm aware of all this; I only just recently moved to Canada to live with my spouse.  I was born in and grew up in the US

 

And again, that's why I never said people have no reason to potentially be afraid of police in general.

[Tree snake]

I've always thought plaincloth officers were super easy to spot but maybe that's because I have experience. I used to have coffee with a guy who's a diagnosed psychopath and has been to prison for murder, the local police had him tagged by plaincloth officers pretty much 24/7 so I learned to pick them out of a crowd.

I can't put my finger on what it is but I can spot an unmarked police car or a plaincloth officer from a mile away. I'm not sure how I feel about them. Around where I live they're not allowed to be armed while in plaincloth or unmarked cars; so I'm not all that worried. 

[Alaska Native Manitou]

19 hours ago, Philip027 said:

I'm honestly not sure what else would cause people to have a problem with unmarked police vehicles while at the same time having no problem whatsoever with the marked ones. 

When did I say I was fine with marked vehicles?  But seeing the police be underhanded increases my anxiety to 11.  Especially when it's not just police; the fact that people expect undercover cops allows scammers to shake people down like in the video on the previous page.

[Lichley]

19 hours ago, Sir_The_Last said:

I believe the law itself has a system to  dealing with abuse of power.   

Ok but have you seen them actually do anything about blatant abuses of power? Because I sure haven’t. They’ll do an arrest if the case gets enough publicity that the financial backing on the bribes stops, but if it’s something that can be covered up it’s going to be covered up.

That is why brining public attention to these cases isn’t important. It’s why calling people out on abuse of power makes a difference, because it forces people in power to actually follow the law.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Lichley said:

Ok but have you seen them actually do anything about blatant abuses of power? Because I sure haven’t. They’ll do an arrest if the case gets enough publicity that the financial backing on the bribes stops, but if it’s something that can be covered up it’s going to be covered up.

That is why brining public attention to these cases isn’t important. It’s why calling people out on abuse of power makes a difference, because it forces people in power to actually follow the law.

When it comes to a case  before a judge. It is better not to share anything to the public.  Otherwise  it might not be admit 

[Alaska Native Manitou]

52 minutes ago, Sir_The_Last said:

When it comes to a case  before a judge. It is better not to share anything to the public.  Otherwise  it might not be admit 

Wow, that's so meta.  Layers of secrecy enabling each other.😨

[Guest]

I believe that one must work within the rules or laws.  Otherwise  we  are no better then those who abuse the power. 

[Gloomy]

The other day I was watching an episode of Forensic Files where some lady pretended to be a plain clothed cop with an unmarked car so she could kidnap her victim by pretending to arrest her in a store parking lot. There were even witnesses who thought it was a real arrest. Yeah, I wouldn't want some random person claiming to be a cop to pull me over and/or arrest me. (I mean, obviously I wouldn't want to be arrested by a real cop either, but that's another story...)

[timewarp]

They are pretty standard here, but mostly for traffic speed enforcement. The locals usually know fairly quickly what they look like. Always a German make, often with a connection to either more regional producers (preferably Mercedes down here) or available funding (no more than an Opel Corsa in Berlin), and always in a colour that is easy to sell once the lease is over - in most cases that would be silver. They are also extremely accurately parked fairly near to the lane, because otherwise the speed cam doesn't work.

 

Does it bother me? Depends on the speed I'm driving, eh?

[Alaska Native Manitou]

 

[Cimmerian]

Totally normal here as well. I'm not uncomfortable with them although they're not my favorite thing when it comes to traffic stops; their usage varies by city around here. Mine has them although they're not what you usually get pulled over by. They use a couple varieties of them but most are a couple specific models that you just learn to account for (usually in a plain colors) and the vast majority of unmarked cop cars still have small cues that will signal that they're a cop care if you look for them. Another city uses more unorthodox unmarked cars and I've seen them in bright colors there - that was definitely a surprise but that city's also known for being much more strict about the speed limit.

[iff]

Please bear in mind the census please read 

 

 Sometimes opinions cross - while all opinions are welcome, please just remember that Census is not the place for heated debates about those opinions, a more appropriate forum for such discussions would be either Philosophy, Politics & Science or The Hot Box. 

 

 

So let's try not to make the thread a heated debate on policing

 

Iff, 

Moderator, census forum

 

[Anarchist Kaos]

They exist here in México and they have a history of kidnapping people and making them disappear.

 

Do they make me uncomfortable?

Yes, it's hard to hold the police accountable when you don't even know who they are, can't really distinguish them from criminals if they're moving around in unmarked vehicles either, so it could also lead to a misunderstanding where you attack them because you're very reasonably fearing for your life.

 

Do I think they have any place on a free society?

No, not at all, I believe them to be a tool from the government to oppress the people through both scare tactics and being completely unaccountable for one's actions, everything about it screams the exact opposite to freedom, in fact I believe police as it currently exists is a disgrace and an insult to freedom and therefore it shouldn't exist in it's current form, as it simply serves the interests of the state and by direct connection of the corporations and it doesn't really serve the people, the system should be re-designed from the ground up in a manner in which police are directly accountable to the people rather than the state, a system where we're actually capable to denounce and fire bad actors among the police and that offers no protections to those who abuse power.

 

But to be fair I don't believe that freedom exists under capitalism at all.