Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[ALoudPrincess]

2 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

When I lived in NYC I know there was an Orthodox Jewish population so you could always tell in those cases. Then in some other cases I've seen men were these little... cap things. But I'm not sure if that's a daily wear situation or just for special occasions. I'm also still not sure if my two friends are religious or if it's more of an ethnic connection they're feeling. 

It's called a kippa. It is a religious item that men wear every day to remind themselves that G-d is watching and you should do good rather than bad. There is more to it but I'm not going to read the Talmud now as it is really really late for me now.

[Sally]

3 hours ago, eeza17 said:

That'd be a "kippa"/"yarmulke" (skullcap), amab wear them from age 3 onward, daily. They come in variations, as will anything in the world lol

 

 

Hasidic Jews wear something called a shtreimal (shtrymal) on holidays and shabbat:

The 

 

That's a certain kind of hat that the Satmar sect of Jewish Hasids wear.  The various costumes that Hasids wear stem from what they wore hundreds of years ago in Eastern Europe; it's part of their religious practices that they've continued to do so.  

 

The group of people now called the Palestinians (that nomenclature started with Arafat) were Arabs who moved west into what was then called Palestine hundreds of years ago.  As stated above, there were always Jews in Israel, even though most left after Rome vanquished that area, and there were also many other peoples in that area.  So it wasn't the case that 1) the Jews were coming into Palestine to push the Arabs out, or 2) that the only people in the area were what we now call Palestinians.  \

 

There never was an actual nation called "Palestine".  Except for several hundreds of years before the Common Era when there was a Jewish nation covering most of the area it's always been ruled by a endless succession of major nations.  Britain was the last of those nations (after about 500 years of Turkish rule).  When the Brits left after WWII, the UN voted to divide the area into an area for Arabs and an area for Jews.  The Arabs refused to allow Jews to have any land there, and in 1948, 5 Arab nations attacked the Jews.  That didn't work out the way the Arabs thought it would.  

 

After another war by Arab states against the Jews in 1967 war, Israel kept the area now called the West Bank as a sort of protection zone, to prevent more wars (but it didn't).  Unfortunately, over the years, Sharon and Netanyahu gradually filled in the West Bank with Jewish settlements, to the point where now it is simply impossible for there to be a separate state there.   After Israel left Gaza about 10 yerars ago, it was taken over by the terrorist group Hamas, which has used the funds given it by other nations for infrastructure instead to build tunnels underneath Israel and send rockets into southern Israel.  The Palestinian Authority is ineptly ruled by another group of Arabs; the two groups don't get along.  

 

Netanyahu is another Trump.  He runs Israel even though he is on trial for corruption.  He has the same attitude that other would-be dictators have: he figures he'll rule Israel for life.  Most Diaspora Jews, including Americans, despair of his influence, and find it hard to have any hope for peace.  But we maintain our feeling that after several thousand years of being pushed around, pushed out, and finally murdered by many countries not their own, they deserve one country where that isn't going to happen.  Israel, though a Jewish country, allows Arabs to become citizens, and in fact there are Arab members of the Knesset, the national legislature.  

 

And it's usually termed "anti-Semitism".  I've never seen it being written as "antisemitism".  Although that really doesn't matter.

[ALoudPrincess]

1 hour ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

The World Book Dictionary has anti-Semite; it doesn't list "antisemite" even as a variation so I don't know where you got that from.

 

I was friends with an Israeli-American who didn't like what that government was doing to Palestinians.  There are whole organizations against the oppression; the Israeli government calls them anti-Semitic even when they are Jewish.  https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

 

The resonance my people feel for the Palestinians goes both ways; some of them offered support against the Dakota Access PipeLine (DAPL):  

I believe that it needs to be a two way street. This is from a kids show in Gaza. Let me know what you think. 

 

[ALoudPrincess]

1 hour ago, AspieAlly613 said:

If my understanding is correct, that was especially true around the time period @PanFicto. was recalling (roughly 20 years ago).  A lot of lies about the Israeli military action in Jenin got busted by surveillance.  

 

Still, I wouldn't put it out of the range of possibility that violations would occur.  If the United States military could have the Abu Ghraib scandal in 2004, I would consider it feasible that the Israeli military, who has at least as much to fear from Palestinian extremists as the US Army had to fear from Iraqi extremists, may have committed similar crimes.

Definitely and that's why proof is always so essential in this argument.

[ALoudPrincess]

1 hour ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

After the way @ALoudPrincess  accused me I need some time to cool off.  She said she wanted reliable sources so:  https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

I'm sorry I came off as abrasive. I apologize. I respond to comments individually. One does not have to do with the other. When I said 'sprouting hate' it was not directed towards you but towards others who may have the idea to sprout hate. Again I apologize. This is a risky subject to talk about so I try to choose my words very carefully, but there are always times that I slip. I'm only human  .

 

Thank you for the proof.

[Still]

3 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

(link deleted)

If you want to be taken seriously, don't post PragerU videos: they're a Koch-funded propaganda mill.

[Iam9man]

Genuine respectful question for anyone who selected Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine:

 

Do you support a two-state solution (in whatever shape this may take)?

[De Mij'lory]

I used to tilt Pro-Palestinian, but having been there it's now "Need to learn more before I make a choice". There is way more going on there than anyone not living there can really comprehend and I've given up trying.

 

My take on it though is both cultures have just as much "right" to be there, but the balance of power is quite significantly held by one side - this is quite obvious on the ground when you see that the west bank is not all that far from an open prison. I can see the reasons why though which is why I have no hope for anything changing.

 

The two state solution is long dead, the settlement program killed that off many years ago. One state solution is generally accepted on the ground as only viable option left but it too has many issues, not least a huge demographic shift and the removal of the current Jewish majority.

 

Something a lot of people outside of the Middle East don't realise is borders there are very much a recent invention and one of the worst things to happen to the area was drawing some arbitrary lines in the sand. The concept of state ownership of an area is quite new there and the idea causes a lot of tension. Similar parallels can be drawn to the fate of the indigenous population in both Australia and the America's imo; there's been a huge change in the last few hundred years that just goes against everything their culture is used to and they're still struggling to adjust.

[aneczyk]

I understand why Jewish people feel safer in a country founded by and for specifically them, but that doesn't erase the horrific, racist violence against both Israeli people of color and Palestinians of all religions. If they could just coexist peacefully without imperialism, that would be what I'd aim for, and as a white gentile it's the only position I feel I should be taking.

[Abigail Rose]

6 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

The sad fact is one side is for a two-state solution and the other isn't. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/29/world/middleeast/israel-palestinians-two-state-solution.html

I read this article. It is a bit dated but there are some aspects of this article that I feel to be hypocritical honestly. There are too many demands and few concessions for a territory deemed to be holy by so many different religious groups. If this land is so sacred, then why taint that with the blood of innocent people? I am not devout enough, I suppose, to place my beliefs in one area as the whole Earth seems like a good place for Faith. Both sides have a fair point about their feelings but letting bloodshed guide religion is senseless and unnecessary in my opinion. To me it calls upon humanity do rise above religious beliefs. Imagine the prosperity that these people would know by working together. 

[eeza17]

9 hours ago, GingerRose said:

ew

8 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

Really? I've always learnt it with the hyphen in my Jewish Day School.

And I used to be one of you, and wrote it like that too. However I recently became more educated, and any expert in the topic will agree that "antisemitism" is correct. 

Read this for a short and comprehensive explanation as to why: https://phdn.org/antisem/shmuel_almog-what_s_in_a_hyphen-1989.html

 

8 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

The issue was that they wanted a place to be safe and if they couldn't get Palestine, they'd settle for Uganda as a temporary refuge. The Zionist movement eventually removed that idea. https://www.fozmuseum.com/explore-foz/a-jewish-homeland-in-africa/

Key word: settle.

[ALoudPrincess]

5 hours ago, Iam9man said:

Genuine respectful question for anyone who selected Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine:

 

Do you support a two-state solution (in whatever shape this may take)?

Personally, I don't think it's feasible unless both sides want peace and that isn't so far possible.

 

I selected Pro-Israel.

 

I believe that there shouldn't be a two-state situation. Jewish people have one, just one, country for themselves and it's already a small sliver of land. The Jews have one place where they'll be protected regardless of their Jewish identity rather in spite of. Do you know what it's like to worry when walking around and wearing clothing that people coincide with a religious Jew wearing? Do you know what it's like to go to synagogue and have 5 security guards surrounding the building because otherwise people will attack or defile a holy place? Do you know what it's like to have the security guards and still fear for your life and theirs because you know that that still won't stop people from attacking us or shooting up our synagogue?

 

Sorry. Got a little deeper there than I intended. Deep breaths.

 

In addition, there are many Muslim Israelis who coexist peacefully with Jewish Israelis. Why can't they peacefully coexist in one Jewish country? Israel actually forced a lot of Jewish people from their home for peace that didn't happen. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/18/world/middleeast/tearfully-but-forcefully-israel-removes-gaza-settlers.html .

 

I also have an issue with there are also 45+ countries that are Muslim if they want a place with just their religion https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/muslim-majority-countries . America is a Christian oriented country and people coexist there (yes there are issues with racism and anti-Semitism. I live there.) so why can't Israel be a Jewish oriented country and they just live peacefully?

[ALoudPrincess]

6 hours ago, Still said:

If you want to be taken seriously, don't post PragerU videos: they're a Koch-funded propaganda mill.

Thank you for letting me know. I will not use them again in the future. 

 

[ALoudPrincess]

1 hour ago, aneczyk said:

I understand why Jewish people feel safer in a country founded by and for specifically them, but that doesn't erase the horrific, racist violence against both Israeli people of color and Palestinians of all religions. If they could just coexist peacefully without imperialism, that would be what I'd aim for, and as a white gentile it's the only position I feel I should be taking.

Please understand that there is violence on both sides not just Israelis

 

There are wars to prove this. War of Independence, First Intifada, Second Intifada, etc...

[ALoudPrincess]

1 hour ago, Abigail Rose said:

It is a bit dated but there are some aspects of this article that I feel to be hypocritical honestly

That is a valid point, so here is a more recent article. https://www.the-american-interest.com/2019/05/31/the-death-of-the-two-state-solution/ I hope this is better if not let me know.

 

[ALoudPrincess]

45 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

And I used to be one of you, and wrote it like that too. However I recently became more educated, and any expert in the topic will agree that "antisemitism" is correct. 

Read this for a short and comprehensive explanation as to why: https://phdn.org/antisem/shmuel_almog-what_s_in_a_hyphen-1989.html

That's very interesting and thank you for this. I will change the way I spell antisemitsm.

[aneczyk]

4 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

Please understand that there is violence on both sides not just Israelis

 

There are wars to prove this. War of Independence, First Intifada, Second Intifada, etc...

and israeli civilians don't deserve to be victims of that, but the Israeli government is an imperialist, racist state that mandates its citizens take part in anti-Palestinian genocide.

[ALoudPrincess]

Just now, aneczyk said:

and israeli civilians don't deserve to be victims of that, but the Israeli government is an imperialist, racist state that mandates its citizens take part in anti-Palestinian genocide.

I'm not saying that everything Israel does is perfect, but it's not genocide. The Holocaust was genocide. The Armenian massacre was genocide. This is not genocide.

 

In fact, Palestinian students and children are taught to hate and kill Israelis and the Jewish people. https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/comprehensive-report-reveals-endemic-hate-education-in-palestinian-schools-632057 .

 

An important quote from the article that I thought was necessary to point out: “The problem of the PA schools is more fundamental than [that], he [Itamar Marcus, founder and director of Palestinian Media Watch] told the Post. “The entire infrastructure of the PA schools is geared to promote terror. The PA’s Bethlehem High School for Girls recently built a memorial at the entrance to the school honoring a 17-year-old female suicide bomber, the ‘Martyr Ayyat Al-Akhras.’ Every single day as these girls enter school they are told that the terrorist – who was a high school girl their age and murdered two and wounded 28 – is their role model.”
Not only that, but the PA names its schools after well-known terrorists, who are also lauded as heroes in the schoolbooks.
DALAL AL-MUGHRABI, a Fatah terrorist who in 1978 took part in an attack on an Israeli bus in which 37 Israelis were killed – including 13 children – enjoys a particularly esteemed place in Palestinian hate education."

[SpaceDustbin]

 

[gisiebob]

can't be pro-israeli without being pro-palistine

[ALoudPrincess]

18 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

can't be pro-israeli without being pro-palistine

How so and do you mean pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians or Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine?

[gisiebob]

22 minutes ago, ALoudPrincess said:

How so and do you mean pro-Israelis and pro-Palestinians or Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine?

both. I think you are too into the sportsball of it maybe to explain.

[eeza17]

4 hours ago, SpaceDustbin said:

 

I'm sorry, I found this hilarious. 

The message is sorta there, but I mean, replace the people fighting, and it can be applied to ...anywhere?

 

It simplifies the conflict too much, and doesn't explain how each persons are approaching the issue.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

My friend told me there was a time when Jews, Christians & Muslims lived together peacefully.  Then he made a point of telling me that he was actually half Israeli & half European, & said it was an important distinction.  That just as the Crusaders killed a lot of Christians, when European Jews flooded in some of them committed crimes against Middle Eastern Jews:   

 

 

He was also glad that his family moved to New York when he was still a child because he would have been forced to join the military & become part of the oppression.  https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/israeli-sniper-targets-uniformed-medics-what-i-witnessed-in-gaza/

 

I don't think he ever told me if he was in favor of a 2-state solution.  His priority was wanting Israel to stop slaughtering civilians. 

Is the US media slanted toward Palestinians?  A highly respected organization that monitors news outlets says the opposite:  https://fair.org/home/israel-isnt-signing-peace-deals/

[Sally]

On 11/11/2020 at 9:59 PM, ALoudPrincess said:

For the first part, some were displaced from the Holocaust, but there were also many Jews already in Palestine. In the Torah (Jewish people's bible), the land was promised to them from G-d. There is a long and complicated history with the Belfour declaration where if the Jewish people fight for the British in WWI, they would be able to have land in Palestine. (Just to be clear, Palestine was not the place Israel looks like today. It's where all the second class citizens were sent. The only significance of the land for the British was the port.) There were many conflicts after the war when the declaration wasn't fulfilled between the Jewish people and the Arab people (it wasn't fulfilled because the Arabs strongly opposed it after the declaration was approved by the League of Nations in 1922. As such, the British controlled the land until 1947). The British were fed up and wanted the place gone. So, they brought it up to the newly formed UN. They decided in a two-state solution and the Jewish leaders said yes but the Arab leaders said no (my teacher had a saying, they liked to roll double of nothing and they almost always end up with nothing). Then they decided to give the whole area to the Jews. This led to a whole bloody conflict that Israel calls the Milkhemet Ha'Atzma'ut, the War of Independence, and the Palestinians calls Al Nakba, the Catastrophe. (for more reference: https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel )

 

With protestor video, do you remember what year it was? 

Just a correction:  The UN did not decide to give the whole area to Israel.  Israel composed the area given to them by the UN, Jordan grabbed part of the area the UN gave to the Arabs, and 5 Arab states waged war on Israel to try to conquer them and then take over the whole area, including the area Israel was given.

[Sally]

2 hours ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

My friend told me there was a time when Jews, Christians & Muslims lived together peacefully.  Then he made a point of telling me that he was actually half Israeli & half European, & said it was an important distinction.  That just as the Crusaders killed a lot of Christians, when European Jews flooded in some of them committed crimes against Middle Eastern Jews:   

 

 

He was also glad that his family moved to New York when he was still a child because he would have been forced to join the military & become part of the oppression.  https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/israeli-sniper-targets-uniformed-medics-what-i-witnessed-in-gaza/

 

I don't think he ever told me if he was in favor of a 2-state solution.  His priority was wanting Israel to stop slaughtering civilians. 

Is the US media slanted toward Palestinians?  A highly respected organization that monitors news outlets says the opposite:  https://fair.org/home/israel-isnt-signing-peace-deals/

Jews are not a race -- Jews lived in Europe and the Middle East for thousands of years.  Israel has not slaughtered Palestinians or Arabs; as soon as Jews started moving to Palestine, while Britain ruled the region, Arabs started making attacks on Jewish enclaves.

[Tsareena]

 

I knew someone from Israel who did service in the IDF and lost family from when Palestindians fired shells into Israel and told me there are stabbing done by arab ppl there a lot (idk if that is true)

The news is pro Israel and social media is pro Palestine but meeting that person made me realize the topic is not black and white as media and social media play.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

https://thenib.com/depictions-of-palestinians-in-media/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/thousands-attend-weekly-protest-against-israel-s-netanyahu/ar-BB1b0YjI?ocid=msedgdhp

https://fair.org/home/media-show-little-interest-in-israeli-bombing-of-gaza/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/natalie-portman-snubs-million-award-blames-benjamin-netanyahu/story?id=54647699

https://www.972mag.com/police-evict-palestinian-family-home-jerusalems-old-city/

 

[ALoudPrincess]

On 11/13/2020 at 7:11 PM, Sally said:

Jews are not a race -- Jews lived in Europe and the Middle East for thousands of years.  Israel has not slaughtered Palestinians or Arabs; as soon as Jews started moving to Palestine, while Britain ruled the region, Arabs started making attacks on Jewish enclaves.

https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine

 

Always show sources please. This source backs up what you're saying.

 

For those who don't know, Jews are a nation and religion. Not only one label.

[ALoudPrincess]

On 11/13/2020 at 9:47 PM, Tsareena said:

I knew someone from Israel who did service in the IDF and lost family from when Palestindians fired shells into Israel and told me there are stabbing done by arab ppl there a lot (idk if that is true)

It's sadly very true. https://www.onefamilytogether.org/personal-stories/ . One Family is an organization helping people and families who have suffered in terrorist attacks in Israel. This is a link to person stories of survivors. There is more information if you want to learn more on the website.

 

On 11/13/2020 at 9:47 PM, Tsareena said:

The news is pro Israel and social media is pro Palestine but meeting that person made me realize the topic is not black and white as media and social media play.

The topic is definitely not black and white. That is why I created this forum, so that people can debate and learn both sides to this argument.

 

I do disagree with the news statement though. I find that a lot of new (specifically CNN and others) tend to lean towards one side and present yellow journalism (For those who don't know, yellow journalism and the yellow press are American terms for journalism and associated newspapers that present little or no legitimate, well-researched news while instead using eye-catching headlines for increased sales. Techniques may include exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering, or sensationalism).