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Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


ALoudPrincess

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your stance?

    • Pro-Israel
      13
    • Pro-Palestine
      27
    • Impartial
      20
    • Need to learn more before I make a choice
      19


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ALoudPrincess
On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

This is very interesting. I do want to comment on some points, and I will try to keep any of my criticisms as respectful as possible. Warning: These are my opinions.

1. I believe the news tends to overexaggerate actions the Israeli government takes rather than downplay like the author believes

2. Palestinians are often painted in dark light the same way Germans are because of WWII (and WWI though they should have not been blamed for that one)

3. Jewish and Israeli stereotypes are often not something I like to see on TV either and often it's highly offensive (greedy, big noses, loud and obnoxious are a few of them), so I get where the author is coming from

4. The author brought up the hijacking of Air France flight 139. I disagree with his view and this is why https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/the-hijackers-of-entebbe-the-full-story-636042 , https://www.nytimes.com/1976/07/11/archives/drama-in-hijacking-of-jet-to-uganda-a-long-week-of-terror-and.html

5. The author mentioned their plight going unseen for a long time. That is the same for the Jewish people.

 

On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

Netanyahu has corruption charges, however I was in Israel during COVID-19 until June. There were low death rates because of his policies.

 

On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/31/hamas-and-israel-agree-end-to-cross-border-bombing-in-gaza

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/31/hamas-and-israel-agree-end-to-cross-border-bombing-in-gaza

 

On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

Valid. Netanyahu isn't the greatest Prime Minister. (so can be said about the US's past and newly elected president)

 

On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

https://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2019/12/24/jewish-settlers-to-evict-illegally-bought-home-israeli-court-rules

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ALoudPrincess
On 11/14/2020 at 6:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

Parallels+-+2+bigger.jpg

 

Forgot to comment on the picture. The picture cuts out a lot of history and background. Attached is a more history picture.Israeli_territorial_changes.png

These are the reasons how Israel obtained the land

The first picture of Israel: After the UN approved the state of Israel, there was the War for Independence. The Israelis won and obtained land.

The Second picture: This was after the six-day war. They had reasons for a preemptive strike as tensions were building on all sides of Israel and Israel intercepted messages for Jordan to Egypt hearing about the attack. The Israelis won and obtained land.

The Third Picture: This is after the Yom Kippur War. The Arab countries surrounding Israel, attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, one of the holiest days of the year. Israel won and obtained land.

Fourth picture: To keep peace between Egypt and Israel, Israel gave Egypt back the Arabian Peninsula. Israel also attacked the PLO, a known terrorist organization, in Southern Lebanon. They won and obtained land

Fifth picture: To keep the peace, Israel kicked out Jewish residents from Gaza and areas of the West Bank to give to the Palestinians. The peace didn't last and the Palestinians and Hamas in Gaza attacked Israelis in the Second Intifada and later wars (there was one recently called Operation Protective Edge. It started because Palestinians kidnapped and killed three Jewish boys. I'd be surprised if you didn't hear about it https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/world/middleeast/Israel-missing-teenagers.html

 

I skipped a lot, so here are more sources to read up on

https://www.britannica.com/event/Arab-Israeli-wars

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-s-wars-and-operations

https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ABOUTISRAEL/HISTORY/Pages/Israel-Wars.aspx

 

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ALoudPrincess
On 11/13/2020 at 4:47 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

My friend told me there was a time when Jews, Christians & Muslims lived together peacefully.  Then he made a point of telling me that he was actually half Israeli & half European, & said it was an important distinction.  That just as the Crusaders killed a lot of Christians, when European Jews flooded in some of them committed crimes against Middle Eastern Jews:   

 

 

He was also glad that his family moved to New York when he was still a child because he would have been forced to join the military & become part of the oppression.  https://ingaza.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/israeli-sniper-targets-uniformed-medics-what-i-witnessed-in-gaza/

 

I don't think he ever told me if he was in favor of a 2-state solution.  His priority was wanting Israel to stop slaughtering civilians. palestine-native-comparison.jpg

Is the US media slanted toward Palestinians?  A highly respected organization that monitors news outlets says the opposite:  https://fair.org/home/israel-isnt-signing-peace-deals/

For the first part, that may be true, but I don't trust CNN as a reliable new source. Could you find me another?

 

The second part: In Gaza, they use their citizens as human shields. If he was in the army, he would stop the opression. https://nypost.com/2015/05/02/un-report-outlines-how-hamas-used-kids-as-human-shields/ , https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-28394606 , https://www.idf.il/en/articles/hamas/how-is-the-idf-minimizing-harm-to-civilians-in-gaza/

 

The last part: I believe the opposite https://www.jstor.org/stable/3791301?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents , https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/

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Alaska Native Manitou
5 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

For those who don't know, Jews are a nation and religion. Not only one label.

More than a nation and religion though, because you can have non-religious Jews. Labeling "who is a Jew"

 

4 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

For

4 minutes ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

 

The Israeli government did take the children of Yeminites, and gave them to Ashkenazi survivors. For once, CNN got something right. It's common knowldedge, at least in my circles.

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On 11/14/2020 at 3:22 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

The all-green land you show above was not solely populated by Arabs -- there were also Jews living there, and other ethnicities and tribal groups.  And in 1946, it was ruled by England, not a nation called "Palestine."  Before England, it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire in Turkey.

 

Use facts, not emotional arguments, if you want to explain something.

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11 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

I don't trust CNN as a reliable new source.

Which US news channel/organisation would you trust as a reliable source?

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Alaska Native Manitou

Here are some movies about Palestine:

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All I'm going to add is that I have it from a first hand neutral source (observer sent to the country) that the Israeli military/political aparatus is very good at filtering news before it gets out.

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8 hours ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

I'll also mention Kadosh.  An Israeli movie about Jewish culture oppressing women.  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32fuqe

Jewish culture doesn't oppress women. It's quite possible that some men who interpret the Torah in certain ways use it to oppress the women, but just because there are bad people in a religion doesn't make the religion bad.

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this is a good place to practice questioning truth. lots of folk will believe how things are here, will call what they believe as something called Truth, but we should ask what gives us truth? is it ever an individual? are we here an individual trying to impress Truth onto one another?

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Since I can't figure out how to follow a topic, I'm going to post now so it shows up in my history. There is a lot I could say on this topic having spent time in both Israel and Palestine, but I should be going to sleep, so I will save it for another time. I will say as a US citizen, we are complicit in a lot of human rights abuses taking place over there. There are messed up governments on both sides, but the imbalance of power is strong and the average Palestinian citizen suffers for it.

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Wow, almost a week has past, so I guess I'm reviving a dead topic, but I wanted to reply and a busy week got in the way.
Before I knew anything about the conflict I was studying abroad in Be'er Sheva. I was there during Operation Pillar of Defense. Despite the rocket fire I felt fairly safe under the Iron Dome. Due to the rockets our exams were postponed and we were sent home for the holidays. I got home and what little news coverage I saw did not at all reflect the reality I saw on the ground. Even though I felt safe, I worried about the many people in Gaza who did not have the shelter of the Iron Dome.

Fast forward to 2016, having not thought of Israel or Palestine for a couple years, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. I had the opportunity to go on a learning delegation to Palestine. While there we spoke with both Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations. Two that stand out in my mind were Parents Circle Families and Military Court Watch. The former is a group of Israelis and Palestinians who have lost immediate family members who get together and share their stories with each other. The other is a group that monitors children who are in Israeli military detention.

According to Military Court Watch's latest report 73% of the imprisoned children are held inside of Israel rather than in Palestine (meaning that unless their parents have permits to cross into Israel, they have no access to their children). This violates the Fourth Geneva Convention.

Fast forward to the end of 2017, I left my job to join the organization that put on the learning tour to become a human rights monitor and accompaniment worker. The team I was with was based out of al-Khalil(Hebron). al_Khalil is considered the 'microcosm' of the Israeli occupation. Our team was on call to monitor any situations that arose. However, our most common task was to monitor military checkpoints that children and teachers pass through on their way to school. We would record the number of students by gender and how many times they were stopped or harassed by settlers or soldiers. We also recorded incidences involving tear gas and sound grenades. We would write semester reports which we would make publicly available (this work was partially supported by a UNICEF grant, the rest was through organization fundraising). Due to the number of years of data, it was easy to see that the number of students passing through these checkpoints continue to decline. For example, the kindergarten next to the Ibrahimi Mosque (also known as the Cave of the Patriarchs or the Cave of Machpelah) had 10 teachers and 90 students in 2000. As of 2018, there were 12 children registered (I don't have current numbers for reasons I will address at the end).
Yes kids throw rocks at the checkpoints sometimes. They are kids, they are frustrated, and the checkpoints are fortified so the soldiers are very unlikely to be injured. The response is extreme and the punishment collective. Soldiers (generally freshly graduated high school students serving their mandatory military stint, with a couple of long term border police) shoot tear gas canisters and sound grenades into groups of children. They on rare occasion rush forward and detain whichever children are closest regardless of whether they threw the stones or not. Sometimes the tear gas canisters are shot into the schools and classes have to be delayed or cancelled. Often during incidences, the checkpoints are closed and the children left waiting unable to get to school. In January to May of 2018 we recorded 31 tear gas canisters and 14 sound grenades fired at children and a nearby school.

I could go on and on about how many times I saw a disproportionate use of power, but I feel this is already getting long and I have a couple more things to address.

Most of the Israeli soldiers are fresh out of high school. Their brains are still developing, they are still developing a sense of self. To have them in this position is horrendous. I don't want excuse their actions, they are complicit, but I also don't want to dehumanize them. You can hear some or their accounts in Breaking the Silence.

The settlers are the people I really take issue with. They come in a couple groups, those who are religious zealots who believe they are within their G-d given right to reclaim the land promised to them by any means necessary, and those who live sheltered lives behind gated walls with no idea of the cost of the land where they live. The settlers I encountered in al-Khalil are the first type. They make life miserable for the Palestinians who live there, falsely accusing them of crimes, throwing rocks, urine or other items at them, literally driving them out of their homes and establishing themselves in them. As an occupying nation, it is illegal by international law for Israeli civilians to be moved into occupied territories. Moreover, most of the settlements in the West Bank are illegal by Israeli law, and yet they receive support from Israel.

I don't care what religion you are, but when you conflate religion and nationalism it is dangerous and scary. Even soldiers were often intimidated by the more zealous settlers. They were unpredictable and heavily armed.

You can't hear of the conflict without hearing of demolitions. Demolitions often occur for two supposed reasons: either collective punishment due to misdeeds of one member of the family (no matter how extended) or for not having the permits to build in the first place. Collective punishment is illegal per the Geneva Convention. As for permits, those living in area C of the West Bank are under Israeli jurisdiction, to apply for a permit is prohibitively expensive and the majority of them are rejected with no reason given.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll finish with one more point: censorship. People can be punished for what they do or say online or in public, they are sometimes detained under administrative detention, which means they can be held for a certain length of time without be charged with any crime, that length of time can be renewed so the person is detained indefinitely. Journalist and human rights monitors are also targeted. I have had a sound grenade thrown directly at my feet so that I tripped over it. The Israeli government considers any criticism as being anti-Israel and attacks those who dare speak up as anti-Semitic. Nearly every foreign human rights monitor, including myself and most of the people I worked with eventually get denied entrance to Israel and as such are unable to enter Palestine.

I apologize for how long this is, but it weighs heavily on me, and I couldn't bear to leave stuff out. If you have any questions or need clarification on any points feel free to ask. I realize most of what I'm writing is based off my first hand experience and ignores the bigger pictures and history, but I am not a historian and you can find that information anywhere. I can speak more easily and with more authority about the individuals impacted than the issues that surround the conflict.

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Alaska Native Manitou
  • 2 weeks later...

Please note content from another thread has been merged into this one.

 

Iam9man

PPS & Alt Lang Moderator

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On 11/17/2020 at 12:11 AM, Iam9man said:

Which US news channel/organisation would you trust as a reliable source?

None they are all liars :) Read all they  say as a fiction book 

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On 12/11/2020 at 12:54 PM, Ash_the_last said:

None they are all liars :) Read all they  say as a fiction book 

Since you do not trust any US news organization on any level, I will try to tackle this from a solutions-orientated viewpoint in order to argue off of opinion since we might have a disconnect of fact when trying to dissect the conflict irrespective of proposed solutions.

 

There seems to be no easy answer to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. The actions of both parties routinely undermine peace. Trying to establish blame is attempting to untie the Gordian Knot, you can cut it with a sword but you have not learn much about the nature and history of the knot if you do so. Coupled with emotion and passion and the attempt to pick-a-side becomes an attempt to defend an already-entrenched position rather than having a constructive dialog to solve the issue. I will outline some proposed solutions below and my opinion of them.

 

One-State Solution: The only way this would work is if full trust is restored between the Israelis and the Palestinians. A domineering Israel which imposes a one-state solution will be faced with continual violence; it is not a path to peace. A domineering Palestine which imposes a one-state solution (unlikely, I know, but this is all theoretical) could be given to revenge and will be faced with continual violence. A new-state one-state solution would solve some major issues. Perhaps a canton-like federation structure could be arranged like Switzerland, with each canton being majority Jewish or Muslim. However, given the trust that would be necessary, it is unlikely to happen.

 

Two-State Solution: Here is where I get more controversial: I do not think Palestine is stable enough, in its present form, to ever be a functional state. It would also have to deal with some bizarre boundaries and the problem of settlers. Gaza and the West Bank already function (and I use that term function, as the Palestinian state is barely functional) as two separate states. I doubt that within 20 years Palestine could function as a state, internally it is dysfunctional. It is easy to unite people against something, much more difficult to unite through rule.

 

Three-State Solution: This is the only option I hold much hope for, and even though I barely hold any hope for it. Splitting Palestine into Gaza and West Bank, and having each under separate governments might work. If Israel and Hamas could constructively work together to reopen the Gaza port and reopen the border it would help out the Gazans, raising their standards of living, thereby decreasing the attractiveness of violence, while providing Israel with a cheap labour force. Hamas would then be faced with the task of ruling, further deradicalizing them. Perhaps with the UN as a third party, small improvements could be made, thereby raising trust. Depending on the situation in the West Bank, these small joint projects could be expanded over there, possibly allowing the two-state solution (or even one-state) to become a reality. If not, however, one could create Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank as different states. Admittedly I have few ideas for the West Bank in this situation, but it might stabilize the situation and test the waters for joint projects. However, I think this is the best option available. Approach the local Palestinian leadership, whoever they might be, with UN as a third party, and set up joint commissions. Reopen Gaza port with both Israeli and Palestinian customs agents, help fund basic infrastructure in Gaza in exchange for peace. Prove to the Palestinian leadership that Israel only wants peace. Get other Islamic nations to back these joint projects. Through this one can build peace, and hopefully a Palestinian state as well. However, do not deal with the present Palestinian 'state' unless they are the actual power on the ground. Deal with the Palestinians who have the true power in the areas that the joint projects would assist. Tell those local leaders that people with hope and rising standards of living are docile people, therefore if they want to stay in power they should agree to these joint projects.

 

All other ideas (such as Egypt and Jordan annex Gaza and the West Bank again respectively) seem unlikely. Trust is lacking. Rebuilding trust is the first steps towards peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians. Sudden provocative movements, especially on the part of the side with the advantage (Israel). Similarly, Palestinian leadership (where it exists) should work to discourage and control extremist actions. I think picking-a-side in the conflict fails to address any of the real concerns, instead shifting the discussion to ones of questionable ethical validity, obscure and pointless searches for Israeli/Palestinian horrors, and similar efforts which do nothing to aid peace. Both sides have been violent, both sides have undermined peace. We can debate until we are swallowed by the sun as to which side was/is more violent or more peace-loving. But ultimately those questions become unanswerable and bring us no closer to solutions.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/12/2020 at 10:37 PM, Alawyn-Aebt said:

Three-State Solution

This is such an interesting idea

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Alaska Native Manitou

I just learned Israeli apartheid has included sports teams as well.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/soccer/ap-interview-owner-confronts-israeli-team-s-racist-past/ar-BB1cjhzh?ocid=msedgdhp

 

The US is making things harder for Palestinians & Western Saharans as well.  https://www.democracynow.org/2020/12/11/morocco_israel_deal_western_sahara_palestine

 

I wonder what the people who act like the Israel government can do no wrong think of it's spying on the US?  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-welcomes-its-former-spy-in-u-s-with-prayer-and-passport/ar-BB1ckM9m?ocid=msedgdhp

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10 hours ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

I wonder what the people who act like the Israel government can do no wrong think of it's spying on the US?  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-welcomes-its-former-spy-in-u-s-with-prayer-and-passport/ar-BB1ckM9m?ocid=msedgdhp

Most of them will probably shrug and say "everybody spies on everybody else anyway" which is the go-to response when someone you like is the one doing the spying.

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I'm curious as to what people here would consider a neutral stance on the issue.  My guess is that it's in line with a greater fraction of Israeli Jewish politicians than Palestinian and other Arab nations' politicians.  (Yes, I'm classifying Palestine as a nation in recognition of the 1988 Palestinian declaration of independence).

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I'd also like to share my perspective on what I consider to be an informative social phenomenon I've observed.

 

My social circle is largely United States-based, largely liberal, and largely Jewish Zionist.  On most domestic issues, liberal rhetoric appears at first glace to promote the argumentum ad lazarum fallacy (that is, the fallacy where one casts judgment purely based on giving favor to whichever side is less privileged).  (By the way, if you disagree with my classification of argumentum ad lazarum reasoning as a fallacy, please reply to This thread I started.)

 

Unfortunately, when I try to point out that the Israel-Palestine conflict is an example of a case where argumentum ad lazarum reasoning is inadequate, the response has generally (though fortunately, not always) been something like "Globally, Arabs outnumber Jews, so the privilege-o-meter isn't decisively in Israel's favor."  (Well, a less sarcastic version of that.  The phrase "privilege-o-meter" is my own satirical phrase.)

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I think it's important in all this to distinguish between 'the Jewish people' and the Israeli state and military in any case. States don't represent people as much as it is represented in the media and common speech, although some people do buy into the representation the state offers them. I bet some people would disagree and argue that Israel as a state is the Jewish people, but that doesn't hold up for any country in my view, however much some people may wish it to be true and however much a belief of any kind tells you this is the case. Believing that will give any state 'carte blanche' to represent you as they wish with possibly very unfortunate consequences (examples aplenty). 

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1 hour ago, Acing It said:

I bet some people would disagree and argue that Israel as a state is the Jewish people,

Nah, only about half of us are there, and here's a little-known aspect of Jewish teachings (described in Exodus Chapter 34):

 

After the giving of the Ten Commandments, the Israelites (including descendants of Jacob and Egyptians who, witnessing the ten plagues, joined the Israelites in service of G-d), built a golden calf, and worshipped it instead of G-d.  G-d, seeing this, decided that the people were contaminated by Egyptian polytheistic thought, and considered destroying them, starting with a new nation of people with Moses (as the only survivor) as their leader.  Moses objected, and the following deal was reached.  The Israelites would be allowed to live, and the following addendum was made to the Ten Commandments specifically as rules to abide to prevent being completely assimilated into other cultures:

 

  • Do not make molten gods for yourself
  • Eat matzah on the holiday of Passover
  • Your first born and the first borns of your animals belong to G-d and need to be purchased back 30 days after birth
  • None shall appear before G-d empty-handed
  • Do not work in your fields on the Sabbath
  • Observe the three pilgrimage festivals of Passover, Shavu'ot, and Sukkot
  • When you give the Pesach sacrificial offering, do not offer it with leavened bread, and do not leave it overnight
  • Bring your first fruits of the year as an offering to G-d
  • Do not mix dairy and meat

 

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פלונית
בתאריך 31/12/2020 בשעה 12:23, AspieAlly613 אמר:

והתוספת הבאה נעשתה לעשרת הדיברות במיוחד ככללים לקיים כדי למנוע הטמעה מוחלטת בתרבויות אחרות:

 

On 12/31/2020 at 10:50 AM, Acing It said:

I think it's important in all this to distinguish between 'the Jewish people' and the Israeli state and military in any case. States don't represent people

In fact, according to the text this mitzvot were written before the incident you are talking about. Israel is in many non-negligible ways the state of the jewish people, because this is they actual original state historically and religiously and because 75% of it's population is jew... But it's doesn't mean that israel represents the jewish in any way or that israel is only for jews, of course. 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/16/2020 at 7:50 PM, eeza17 said:

More than a nation and religion though, because you can have non-religious Jews. Labeling "who is a Jew"

 

The Israeli government did take the children of Yeminites, and gave them to Ashkenazi survivors. For once, CNN got something right. It's common knowldedge, at least in my circles.

Similar things happened in the US, Canada, and Australia- government confiscation of Indigenous children.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So heres my idea vis a vis Jerusalem that probably wouldn't work. Tje Palestinians and Israelies both claim Jerusalem. My idea would be to give it to neither of them. Turn it into an independent city state and have a neutral country gaurd it. Thst wau both peoples can enjoy it equally.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Alaska Native Manitou

Israel's treatment of Palestinians has drawn the attention of the International Criminal Court.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/icc-ruling-brings-hope-for-palestinians-dismay-for-israelis/ar-BB1drPr4?ocid=msedgntp#image=BB1drPr4_1|3

 

And now--just like anyone he disagrees with--Netanyahu accuses the ICC:  

 

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