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ALoudPrincess

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your stance?

    • Pro-Israel
      6
    • Pro-Palestine
      13
    • Impartial
      8
    • Need to learn more before I make a choice
      8


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ALoudPrincess

We always hear about this on the news. The sad truth is, it tends to be warped by media and word of mouth. This is a place to ask questions or share your views on certain topics regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

I believe that this topic does need to be spoken about. It is a messy topic and I'm very passionate about it. If you have any questions, please ask and I will try to answer to the best of my ability with legitimate sources to back it up. I do warn you that I am a little biased as I have chosen a side, but I'm very open for debating and sharing about this topic.

 

If you wish, I can give a brief or long history on how this conflict came to be. I can even give you a history on Israel from its UN ordained creation in 1948 to present day. I am well versed in these topics.

 

Remember this forum is not for hatred or anti-Semitism or racism or bigotry. This is to learn more about a topic the media and the world tend to distort.

That being said, you are free to criticize as long as there is legitimate reason (reason=situations that should've been better handled, someone did something dumb, problems in society, etc...) and you need to back it up with sources. This can become a very volatile topic and we want to hurt as little people as possible. You must debate respectfully or keep your comments to yourself.

Edited by ALoudPrincess
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EmilyWorkman

How much involvement do you think the US should have when it comes to Israel? I know it's a little vague, but I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

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GingerRose

I am not any of the above.

Both sides have issues. Both sides are made up of different people with different ways of handling their power. In ways I disapprove of.

Did you know there are Jewish Palestinians and Muslim Israelites?

This isn't a black and white issue. The only thing black and white about it, is that both sides are using threats and violence to get their way. And one side is taking advantage of its power. The black and white part is that violence isn't the way to solve this issue. This whole issue started with the British Empire and how they thought they could promise land to people. So they made them set wars on each other? No. The people did this, so they need to learn to stop the violence. If there is violence, violence will follow. They should follow in the steps of Neve Shalom   and be the better humanity.

 

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PanFicto.

What we were taught in school was that the Israelites were people displaced by WW2, and their promised land (in the Bible or something) was Palestine. Only thing is that Palestinians already lived there, and so they started killing each other over who truly owns the land. Is that correct or do I have it the wrong way around? It was like 2 decades ago so I could be misremembering. Our teacher showed us videos of protestors being run over by those big flattening trucks and made us promise we wouldn't tell our parents what he showed us :o

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PanFicto.

He also showed us how to get onto some website that showed images and videos filmed by protestors and journalists that were too graphic to be shown on the regular news, ahem. Like what the soldiers were doing to women they caught and stuff 😧

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Purple Red Panda
2 hours ago, GingerRose said:

This whole issue started with the British Empire and how they thought they could promise land to people.

Much as I'm hardly an apologist for my nation's creepy imperialist past, the idea of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine predates the Balfour Declaration and Jewish emigration to the Holy Land was already occuring before the mandate for Palestine was assigned to Britain. As is traditional the UK's actions were far from helpful in creating any hope of stability in the middle east but the UK did no create the issue, they simply made matters worse.

 

Just as an aside at one point the UK seriously considered creating a Jewish homeland in Uganda! History is very strange.

*edit* I believe the territory in question is now actually part of Kenya but was part of the UK's Uganda Protectorate shortly before the offer was made.

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eeza17
2 hours ago, ALoudPrincess said:

anti-Semitism

The correct term is "antisemitism," without the hyphen and capitalized S : )

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eeza17
35 minutes ago, Purple Red Panda said:

Jewish homeland in Uganda!

That literally defeats the purpose, as the point of a Jewish state is to have it where the Jews have the "most claim" slash history. (I didn't explain that well, but point is, wtf that's nonsensical.)

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eeza17
43 minutes ago, PanFicto. said:

What we were taught in school was that the Israelites were people displaced by WW2, and their promised land (in the Bible or something) was Palestine. Only thing is that Palestinians already lived there, and so they started killing each other over who truly owns the land. Is that correct or do I have it the wrong way around? It was like 2 decades ago so I could be misremembering. Our teacher showed us videos of protestors being run over by those big flattening trucks and made us promise we wouldn't tell our parents what he showed us :o

I mean, sorta? Palesinians weren't the only people living there-Jews and some Christians also had been living there.

 

The Jews always had roots in Israel, going back hundreds of years. There were always some Jews living there, at some points in time more than at other points, but it's always been a "Jewish land."Throughout history, it was many a Jews goal to go back to the Holy Land. Many big rabbis made the arduous journey (sometimes taking years) from all over Europe and Africa, to live out their days in Jerusalem. 

 

FF to modern times, and travel was made much easier/quicker by way of airplanes/steamships. Right before, during, and after the Holocaust, Jews made their way to Palestine, especially after, when displaced Jews had nothing left for them in their home country. 

 

 

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Purple Red Panda
6 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

That literally defeats the purpose, as the point of a Jewish state is to have it where the Jews have the "most claim" slash history. (I didn't explain that well, but point is, wtf that's nonsensical.

It's (slightly) less weird taken in its historical context. There were Jews who simply wanted to see a Jewish state established, and didn't believe that it had to be in Palestine. Considering the horrific levels of antisemitism and the pogroms that were taking place in the Russian Empire this is entirely understandable.

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eeza17
2 minutes ago, Purple Red Panda said:

It's (slightly) less weird taken in its historical context. There were Jews who simply wanted to see a Jewish state established, and didn't believe that it had to be in Palestine. Considering the horrific levels of antisemitism and the pogroms that were taking place in the Russian Empire this is entirely understandable.

True, but most of those Jews who wanted a Jewish state were/are only ethnically Jewish, and not culturally/religious and any religious Jew worth their salt would want a Jewish state where the Jews always were.

 

(Not getting into the Neturay Karta because that's a mess and a half)

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Abigail Rose

I'm Pro-peace. Unlikely as it is, that is my stance. I'm not indifferent or impartial. I couldn't begin to form a genuine understanding of the environment without spending years in the region, which I would rather not do myself. I can't say much other than I have met people that are Israeli and Palestinian. They are all nice people that would rather just know peace. If one of the possible options was peaceful integration, I would vote for that.

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Purple Red Panda
5 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

True, but most of those Jews who wanted a Jewish state were/are only ethnically Jewish, and not culturally/religious and any religious Jew worth their salt would want a Jewish state where the Jews always were.

Ultimately the Zionists won the argument and a Jewish state in Palestine just looks more credible as a concept in terms of the obvious history of the Jewish people rather than setting one up in East Africa.

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Purple Red Panda

This is also the longest I have ever seen any debate on the internet about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict go on for before it descends into abject awfulness.

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2SpiritCherokeePrincess

native-american-indians-take-a-stand-for

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AspieAlly613
12 minutes ago, PanFicto. said:

What we were taught in school was that the Israelites were people displaced by WW2, and their promised land (in the Bible or something) was Palestine. Only thing is that Palestinians already lived there, and so they started killing each other over who truly owns the land. Is that correct or do I have it the wrong way around? It was like 2 decades ago so I could be misremembering. Our teacher showed us videos of protestors being run over by those big flattening trucks and made us promise we wouldn't tell our parents what he showed us :o

That's a rough approximation.  Everything you said about the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is at least mostly true.  I'd like to fill in some of the gaps.

 

Timeline:

 

1850's:

This serves as a good "before" snapshot.  There is neither a country called "Israel" nor one called "Palestine" at this time.  That region is under the rule of the Ottoman empire. It is a Muslim empire, but not an Arab one.  The region is predominantly Muslim, with majority-Jewish areas in Jerusalem, Be'er Sheva, Safed, and a few other cities.

 

1880's:

Not much has changed.  Now, Jews from all over the world who feel uncomfortable (and threatened) under their local governments start moving en masse to the region of modern day Israel and Palestine, feeling that with some cities there being majority-Jewish, they will have no reason to fear.  

 

1918:

World War I ends, and the Ottoman Empire falls.  Great Britain is the new ruler of the region.  As World War I was considered "the war to end all wars" at the time, they try to divide the Ottoman Empire into smaller nations, ruled by indigenous groups.  The question about the geographic region of Palestine is this:  Is the Jewish population there large enough to be considered its own indigenous group? This question goes unanswered for nearly 30 years.

 

1920:

The Jerusalem riots occur.  When historians are asked to choose an incident that marks the beginning of violent confrontations between Jewish nationalists and Arab nationalists in the region, this is the most-widely-selected starting point.

 

1920-1947:

Over this time period, a large number of Jews start migrating to the region.  British authorities impose immigration quotas, but a significant amount of illegal immigration occurs nonetheless.  Meanwhile, Arab nationalists appoint the Arab High Council (or Arab Higher Committee, as some people translate the title) to govern, despite the continued British rule over the region.  The group is disbanded by British forces, then reconstituted some years later by the British as a prelude to the eventual government of an Arab state in at least part of the region.

 

1947:

The nearly 30-year-old question of whether the region has one or two indigenous races is finally brought before the United Nations.  Jewish nationalists present a case.  Arab nationalists choose not to.  It is believed that Arab nationalists intended to ignore the process, and just take over by military force.  The resolution brought before the United Nations is this:  That a Jewish state and an Arab state be formed, and that they not be part of a single unified federal government.  The resolution passes by an overwhelming Majority.  Most Muslim-majority countries vote "no", while most non-Muslim majority countries vote "yes".  To this day, many Muslim-majority countries do not recognize the legitimacy of Israel.  As for the Arab state, well, that leads to the next event.

 

1948-1949:

The Arab-Israeli war.  Before the two new states can be properly formed, the armies of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon invade in an attempt to conquer as much land as they can for an Arab state, even attempting to conquer the entire region, possibly massacring any Jews there.  The war involves many war crimes.  Included are the Arab massacre of Jews at K'far Ezion, the Israeli "plan Dalet" which involved forcing Arabs out of their homes, and the Jordanian and Egyptian conquest of what was supposed to be an independent Arab state.  It is only after this was that the term "Israeli" came to refer to a nationality and that the term "Palestinian" came to refer specifically to Arabs in the region. At the end of the war, Israel controls a region slightly larger than the original plan, Jordan the West Bank of the Jordan river, and Egypt controls Gaza.

 

1967:

The Six-Day War.  After Egypt's blockade of the Suez Canal, more fighting occurs.  The Jordanian West Bank, Egyptian Gaza strip, and Syrian Golan heights are now under Israeli control, though Israel does not annex the areas.

 

1972:

Israel now begins a population transfer of its own population into the West Bank and Gaza, in violation of the Geneva Convention's ban on wars of conquest.  When you hear about "Israeli Settlements" this is what people are talking about.  

 

1987:

The intifada begins.  Arab civilians begin attacking Jewish civilians in a vain attempt at conquest.  The conflict is no longer one between Israeli armies and Arab armies, but between the Israeli army and a significant portion of the Palestinian Arab population writ large.  This makes peace talks and negotiations difficult, as there is no unified group whose leader can come to the table.  This has been the nature of the conflict ever since.

 

1988:

Jordan officially renounces its claim on the West Bank, which it hasn't controlled since 1967.  Six weeks later, the Palestinian declaration of independence is signed and ignored by almost everyone.

 

1993:

Israeli Prime Minister Yitchak Rabin and Palestinian Prime Minister Yasser Arafat sign the Olso accords.  This establishes some independent regions in Palestine, and others under Palestinian law, but Israeli police enforcement.

 

2005:

Israel withdraws its settlements and its military presence from Gaza.  Within a year, Gaza becomes a hotbed of the manufacture and launch of illegal Qassam rockets.  These rockets are not powerful, and cannot target any specific building, but those firing them don't need them to.  The goal:  cause as much death and destruction as you can, civilian and soldier alike.  Being Jewish and in Israel is, in their eyes, a crime punishable by death.

 

2008:

Israel launches Operation Cast Lead, the first of several military offensives aimed at curtailing the use of Qassam rockets.  It has little to no lasting success, and deals significant damage to the Palestinian civilian infrastructure.  However, it is hard to measure exactly how many of the casualties are true civilians, given the guerilla nature of the conflict.

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eeza17
6 minutes ago, Purple Red Panda said:

Ultimately the Zionists won the argument and a Jewish state in Palestine just looks more credible as a concept in terms of the obvious history of the Jewish people rather than setting one up in East Africa.

Most definitely. : )

2 minutes ago, Purple Red Panda said:

This is also the longest I have ever seen any debate on the internet about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict before it descends into abject awfulness.

**Me fearing going to bed because when I wake up there's no way this thread won't have turned toxic...

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eeza17
1 minute ago, AspieAlly613 said:

That's a rough approximation.  Everything you said about the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict is at least mostly true.  I'd like to fill in some of the gaps.

I must say though, considering that I just had a 5 class course on the history of Jews in Israel, I'm sorta ashamed that I couldn't state everything as eloquently as you did. 

 

Let's just put it off on me not actually paying attention in said class, since AVEN remains more interesting.

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fragglesinthedark
15 minutes ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:
Spoiler

native-american-indians-take-a-stand-for

 

When I visited Palestine the situation reminded me of Native American history as well.

 

Also I'd like to contribute the fact that, if you subscribe to the out-of-Africa hypothesis of human origins as most paleoanthropologists do, most non-African people had ancestors who once lived in the Levant at some point. Here's a map showing human migrations based on mitochondrial DNA.

 

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Galactic Turtle

My two oldest friends are both Jewish so sometimes I hear them blowing off steam about how some American media outlet is reporting about the conflict. They're very displeased with networks like CNN who they say are being too sympathetic to Palestine and painting Israel in a bad light. Then again, my two friends also have absolutely nothing nice to say about Palestine either, their fervor about the issue growing after their respective brith-right(?) trips. I usually stay silent during these conversations as I really have only a vague idea of what's going on currently and know that whatever the issue is, it's been going on for centuries if not longer and the core of it is about religion so no matter what it's not going to make sense at the end of the day and lots of people are going to die. I'm not sure why the US has to be so involved though. The guy in charge of Israel right now honestly seems a bit... not great. I assume it's because we're allies with Israel, kinda really dropped the ball on helping the European Jewish population during WWII, and have a notable Jewish population ourselves who have also historically probably gotten lots of shit stateside. Then of course there's America's general long lasting interest in the region because of oil so it wouldn't be all that shocking if that played some part in it. Then again, I've also heard that the reasons I just cited can be viewed as anti-Semitic.

 

As a black person, I've never really noticed this aspect of American culture and aside from obvious WWII examples and am pretty clueless on that it means to be Jewish in America or anywhere. I think I've been to a church gathering or two where someone will say something rude or off-color about Judaism or Catholicism or Islam or random Protestant sects who strike them as suspicious (but Baptists being rude isn't exactly shocking). A couple years ago a Jewish person I was working with retold the story of how he was called some type of Jewish slur during a soccer game in school and broke the guy's nose. Then my friend cited how at the local boys school this one Jewish kid kept having pennies thrown at him... and that has something to do with Judaism? Then of course these neo-Nazi/KKK hybrid types. Meanwhile I'm just over here wondering how people can even tell someone is Jewish in the first place. I've had several people reference the obviousness of their Jewish-ness when it never occurs to me until someone references holiday traditions. I'm just kind of confused about where the hate comes from. 

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AspieAlly613
3 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

The guy in charge of Israel right now honestly seems a bit... not great.

Yeah, if I were an Israeli citizen, I wouldn't have voted for him, either.

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Purple Red Panda
23 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

**Me fearing going to bed because when I wake up there's no way this thread won't have turned toxic...

I'm going to bail on this one before the rot sets in. I'm terms of my own personal opinion I support the existence of Israel but do not unconditionally support its actions. I also support the creation of a viable Palestinian state.  Both sides have done appalling things down the decades and all to often various other nations have stoked the conflict for their own ends. Although I support a two state solution I'm as clueless as anyone else as to how this can peacefully and justly be brought about.

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Galactic Turtle
1 minute ago, AspieAlly613 said:

Yeah, if I were an Israeli citizen, I wouldn't have voted for him, either.

He gives me slight Putin vibes lol. 

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eeza17
7 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Then my friend cited how at the local boys school this one Jewish kid kept having pennies thrown at him... and that has something to do with Judaism? Then of course these neo-Nazi/KKK hybrid types. Meanwhile I'm just over here wondering how people can even tell someone is Jewish in the first place. I've had several people reference the obviousness of their Jewish-ness when it never occurs to me until someone references holiday traditions. I'm just kind of confused about where the hate comes from. 

Historically, back in the church controlled middle ages, Jews were forced into usuary which blossomed into us being "money-hungry." The penny throwing is an outgrowth of that, that a Jew is so desperate for money he would even save pennies. 

 

There is a stereotype of Jews having a hooked nose; I can't comment on if that's specifically a Jewish thing, because I don't have one, and I don't know too many people who do but *shrugs*

 

If you met a religious Jew, you would easily identify them as Jewish (or at least an extreme version of Christianity or something), however like any assimilated people, the ones who don't keep the traditions will look and act the same as any other person in the host country.

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Galactic Turtle
3 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

Historically, back in the church controlled middle ages, Jews were forced into usuary which blossomed into us being "money-hungry." The penny throwing is an outgrowth of that, that a Jew is so desperate for money he would even save pennies. 

 

There is a stereotype of Jews having a hooked nose; I can't comment on if that's specifically a Jewish thing, because I don't have one, and I don't know too many people who do but *shrugs*

 

If you met a religious Jew, you would easily identify them as Jewish (or at least an extreme version of Christianity or something), however like any assimilated people, the ones who don't keep the traditions will look and act the same as any other person in the host country.

When I lived in NYC I know there was an Orthodox Jewish population so you could always tell in those cases. Then in some other cases I've seen men were these little... cap things. But I'm not sure if that's a daily wear situation or just for special occasions. I'm also still not sure if my two friends are religious or if it's more of an ethnic connection they're feeling. 

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eeza17
Just now, Galactic Turtle said:

When I lived in NYC I know there was an Orthodox Jewish population so you could always tell in those cases. Then in some other cases I've seen men were these little... cap things. But I'm not sure if that's a daily wear situation or just for special occasions. 

That'd be a "kippa"/"yarmulke" (skullcap), amab wear them from age 3 onward, daily. They come in variations, as will anything in the world lol

 images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbFYHScfF2FnCV5el4CCB

 

Hasidic Jews wear something called a shtreimal (shtrymal) on holidays and shabbat:

s-l300.jpg

 

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AspieAlly613
1 minute ago, Purple Red Panda said:

I'm going to bail on this one before the rot sets in. I'm terms of my own personal opinion I support the existence of Israel but do not unconditionally support its actions. I also support the creation of a viable Palestinian state.  Both sides have done appalling things down the decades and all to often various other nations have stoked the conflict for their own ends. Although I suport a two state solution I'm as clueless as anyone else as to how this can peacefully and justly be brought about.

Mostly agree:  Here's the one thing I'd change.

 

Quote

I'm as clueless as anyone else as to how this can peacefully and justly be brought about

I feel like I have some clues:

 

  • See to it that both Israeli and Palestinian educational curricula make people at least aware of United Nations conventions on the illegality of wars of conquest and the history that led to those decisions.
  • Stop settlement expansion, and indicate that any land not from the Israeli side of the 1949 Armistice line that ends up under Israeli control should be balanced by an amount of land of equivalent area and value traded to Palestine.  The continued Israeli defiance of United Nations rules against military expansion will, by itself, undermine Palestinian trust in or adherence to those same rules.
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Galactic Turtle
2 minutes ago, eeza17 said:

That'd be a "kippa"/"yarmulke" (skullcap), amab wear them from age 3 onward, daily. They come in variations, as will anything in the world lol

 images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSbFYHScfF2FnCV5el4CCB

 

Hasidic Jews wear something called a shtreimal (shtrymal) on holidays and shabbat:

s-l300.jpg

 

The more you know! 

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eeza17
2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

The more you know! 

Yup! I'd be happy to educate you if you have more questions-but take it to pms please so we stop clogging up the thread, lol

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PanFicto.
1 hour ago, eeza17 said:

I mean, sorta? Palesinians weren't the only people living there-Jews and some Christians also had been living there.

Yeah I meant there were already people living in the area, I shouldn't have said 'Palestinians' specifically sorry!

 

Thanks for the answers!

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