Watch out, I'm coming at Meat Eaters AND Vegans!

[Gatto]

Yes, this century sucks in spite of of being the best. Because, to a greater extent than for previous generations, we know better, and could have, and should have, done better.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

I doubt any readers are taking this thread very seriously, but I would like to chime in that not everyone who takes food ethics seriously adopts the condescending, cocksure, aggressive stance that Woodwind is taking. Personally I think that factory-farming is one of the largest ethical imperfections of our current society but I'm also aware that people are not evil for continuing to support it.

Seconded.

 

It is absolutely possible to discuss the abomination which is factory farming and the environmental impacts of our food habits without being supercilious, condescending and aggressive, or judging people of differing opinions. Because none of that is even remotely helpful.

 

I've found this thread rather funny, because it's a prime example of why vegans have such a terrible reputation for being aggressive holier-than-thou pseudointellectuals. It would be far more interesting with some actual citations the back up the more, eh... controversial claims.

[LeChat]

26 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

...I leave people autonomy to make their own choice. I think most people will eventually come around to avoiding it, if they are spoken to with respect, especially when affordable substitutes are available, but the timing is up to them. Shaming people into changing their diets only works for a very small proportion of people...

Yep. As a teen and young adult, I tried--a couple of times--to bring up to my relatives how I was worried about their health and how they liked eating a lot of fast food (like burgers) and soda, but I didn't get angry at them about it or say that how I preferred eat things like vegetables made me "better" than them (I didn't think I was better than others, based on how I ate).

 

At first, they liked to make jokes and criticize about how I preferred eating vegetables, but, they eventually stopped because they got used to the healthy things I ate.

 

It's their choice how to live their lives, and I don't have any power in forcing them to eat healthy things they don't like to eat or aren't interested in. Unfortunately, it's caused them to have health problems, but I've accepted that there's nothing I can do to change them.

[Gatto]

 

[WoodwindWhistler]

I'm seeing a lot of "our collective demise is outweighed by how individuals may take offense." I mean, obviously. They have all the social leverage against people who wish to avoid food riots and MORE natural disaster or crop failure or drought refugees, aside from the ones that are already scrabbling for places to live. OBVIOUSLY First World People get more consideration, with their delicate little tastes and preferences, than the human race at large. That's how privilege works. @fragglesinthedark @theV0ID @LeChat

 

You have the ability to be chill about it. Because you are safe. I could be, too, but, there are some complicated factors, including intersecting mental health and neurodivergence, that keep me more tortured about it than you are. I haven't slept for more than three or four hours at a time the past two weeks. I'm glad you can sleep. I'm glad you aren't suffering. 

 

But then you want to tell me, in my sleep deprived state, I'm being a 'little too much of a meanie.' Heh. This is me, on like 30% throttle. You don't get to see the rest, because I am diligently managing my mental health such that I don't go to 50% or 80%. 

 

Even if food prices rise where you are, you will be relatively insulated. You can afford to smile and skip along with your mindlessly consuming family members. I can manage that . . . some days. A mentally well person is privileged, too. And surprise, there is more mental illness among vegetarians and vegans. I wonder why. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with feeling utterly alienated by friends and family members, and more aware of the absolute shit storm humanity finds itself in. 

 

I wish I could take solace in knowing that corporations will cater to the people with currency, like me. I'm sure you sleep safe, not even considering the possibility that grocery stores will begin to be inconsistent in their supply. Enough bulk, perhaps, but not this *snap your fingers and instantly have what you're peckish for* as it goes today. 

 

All those dirt poor people don't matter. You can forget them, and poke fun at me, the messenger, on the forums. 

 

Enjoy it. 

 

Because I'm not. 

See also, my other thread that Pandark liked. Thanks for that, by the way. @Pandark

[Fraggle Underdark]

You presumed an immense amount. But I'm detecting a pattern to your inferences that makes the original post make a lot more sense in context.

 

I'm not going to respond to most of that because it would take a while and be beside the point. I'm going to just try one last time to make clear my point: your approach isn't helping. That's it, that's the point. It's not about insult, it's about those very lives you care about. Want to save them? Then do what actually works. What you are doing now is not it.

 

Additionally, my sincere condolences about the mental health issues, that sounds tough. Awareness of animal suffering is tough on all of us and I'm sure it isn't any easier when that stress is thrown into the mix with other serious obstacles someone has to overcome. I appreciate your concern for living things and I'm sure with time and effort you'll make progress on mental health issues. I really mean that and it has nothing to do with implying your arguments are weaker because of it (any readers can assess your arguments on their own merits), I just wish you the best.

[WoodwindWhistler]

55 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

I'm not going to respond to most of that because it would take a while and be beside the point. I'm going to just try one last time to make clear my point: your approach isn't helping. That's it, that's the point. It's not about insult, it's about those very lives you care about. Want to save them? Then do what actually works. What you are doing now is not it.

Listen buddy, I've been on the other side of this debate, trying to talk down people who are far more aggressive than I am. I KNOW this approach doesn't work. This. was. a. vent. thread. 

 

As were the other two. 

 

If someone gets some useful info about the issue, then yay. This is not how I go about addressing how to convert people in my day-to-day life. 

 

See, you all are taking this as me doing my best to change the world. But no. This is me, at a low point, screaming my despair into the heavens. And it's sadly ironic that the majority of people on the thread cluck their tongues at me and don't even begin to sympathize, because they are defending their own egos from correctly perceived wrongdoing. 

 

See, when your mental health issues overlap with your activist interests, what seems like some sort of soapbox is actually just you symbolically opening your wrists.

 

When an average person posts a vent thread, it is obvious. 

 

With me, it is somewhat obscured by the fact that it contains a bunch of factual information. 

[Fraggle Underdark]

I didn't know this was a vent thread, I didn't see any mention of this but knowing that yeah it changes my response. It's still a vent that insults and alienates people who would otherwise be allies so I'm not sure of the benefit of posting it publicly, perhaps a private vent would be better, but if it helps you I'm glad.

 

3 minutes ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

And it's sadly ironic that the majority of people on the thread cluck their tongues at me and don't even begin to sympathize, because they are defending their own egos from correctly perceived wrongdoing. 

There are serious misunderstandings happening in this thread. In the comment just before this I said:

 

1 hour ago, fragglesinthedark said:

Additionally, my sincere condolences about the mental health issues, that sounds tough. Awareness of animal suffering is tough on all of us and I'm sure it isn't any easier when that stress is thrown into the mix with other serious obstacles someone has to overcome. I appreciate your concern for living things and I'm sure with time and effort you'll make progress on mental health issues. I really mean that and it has nothing to do with implying your arguments are weaker because of it (any readers can assess your arguments on their own merits), I just wish you the best.

 

[WoodwindWhistler]

11 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

I didn't know this was a vent thread, I didn't see any mention of this but knowing that yeah it changes my response. It's still a vent that insults and alienates people who would otherwise be allies so I'm not sure of the benefit of posting it publicly, perhaps a private vent would be better, but if it helps you I'm glad.

My private vents are much uglier and would do more damage. 

I don't expect to change peoples' minds here on AVEN. This is typically not why I come here. But, this time, the impulse to post was potent, and unrelenting. And honestly, I feel a lot better. Sometimes, taking care of your own mental health supersedes other peoples' desire to be comfortable or get you to do what they want you to do. 

 

Just knowing that someone saw a little piece of this gauntlet for once, instead of me having to do the 'emotional labor' of pasting on a smile while talking to a baby eater (lamb or veal), or someone who is setting up their kid for diabetes and literal pain from chronic inflammation, is nice. 

[Missing]

I’ve found that the Tea and Sympathy forum can be a nice place to vent and express difficult and painful thoughts or emotions. I’ve found that every thread in PPS usually ends up turning into a debate, which may not be what you’re looking for. I’m glad you’re feeling better. 😊

[LeChat]

Just to help educate and let others know, in case they get the impression that everyone with mental health issues is angry, verbally abusive, etc., that's not the case.

 

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/mental-illness-doesnt-excuse-problematic-behavior#1

 

I've grown up around relatives who seemed to have mental health issues, due to trauma and other frustrating life events like job losses, etc, who were physically, emotionally abusive, etc., who'd use their stressful lives as an excuse to abuse or say hurtful things about others who weren't even doing or saying anything negative to them or bothering them.

 

They'd act like a victim, all while blaming and being rude, abusive, etc. toward others. When they were in that severe, mental health state, they'd say that "everyone else is the problem," never reflect about themselves or how hurtful their behavior was toward others.

 

Eventually, it caused me to develop depression, but even though I struggled with mental health issues, too, I didn't say hurtful things to others; they were nice, supportive, etc. and didn't have anything to do with how family members had abused me.

 

I did, actually, feel sympathy for the abuse my relatives had gone through, as children, and how they'd lost their job or couldn't be hired for any, due to not having a car, driver's license, and/or because they didn't have a college degree. But, it was very difficult for me to continue feeling sympathy for them, all while they were saying hurtful, abusive, and threatening things to me.

 

So, I do have sympathy for those struggling with mental health issues, especially having gone through mental health issues, myself, and seeing my relatives struggle with their mental health. But I'm not a fan of rudeness or taking anger out on others; I didn't do that to others, while struggling with my own mental health issues: I was only angry, frustrated, in pain, etc. toward myself.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, theV0ID said:

It is absolutely possible to discuss the abomination which is factory farming and the environmental impacts of our food habits without being supercilious, condescending and aggressive, or judging people of differing opinions. Because none of that is even remotely helpful.

We are lucky in NZ. The majority of the meat I eat comes from pigs hunted in the wild (they're an invasive species in the forest and are killed anyway due to that, so eating them means their death wasn't for nothing!) and the beef and sheep we eat are grass-fed, free-range, and had happy lives wandering in the sun. Obviously that won't please a vegan, but yeah I also find factory farming an abhorrent practice. Definitely not going to run around yelling at people and acting all holier-than-though about it though because that's just going to piss people off!!!

 

5 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

But then you want to tell me, in my sleep deprived state, I'm being a 'little too much of a meanie.' Heh. 

You're not achieving anything if you're just annoying people though, you seem utterly unable to comprehend that fact. Worse still, a lot of the people still following this thread are doing so only for a laugh and for the entertainment - which doesn't help any African kid starving to death or a pig caged in a factory farm (neither of which are helped by keyboard warriors like you yelling at people on the internet either.. but yeah).

 

4 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

This. was. a. vent. thread. 

nice try but I'm not buying it. You clearly state in the title that 'you're coming for both vegans and meat eaters' which is veeeeeeeeeeeeery different than saying 'both vegans and meat eaters frustrate me and I need to get my rage out' ..You then proceeded to write a very long, angry post 'educating' everyone about just how much their lifestyles suck, while ignoring the stuff that you yourself do and the resources you make use of which are also harmful to the environment and to animals in general. Because everyone else's choices suck, yours are obviously perfect. You saved like 50 starving African kids last year, and raise rescued battery hens as a hobby (which my mother actually does) I'm sure.

[WoodwindWhistler]

5 hours ago, Mackenzie Halloween said:

I’ve found that the Tea and Sympathy forum can be a nice place to vent and express difficult and painful thoughts or emotions. I’ve found that every thread in PPS usually ends up turning into a debate, which may not be what you’re looking for. I’m glad you’re feeling better. 😊

It's not either/or. I enjoy debate too. 

I get in moods where I'm raring for a fight. And now that I think about it, this was probably closer to the sliding scale of one of those times, yet really, I was just seized by the blinding impulse. 

[WoodwindWhistler]

4 hours ago, LeChat said:

Just to help educate and let others know, in case they get the impression that everyone with mental health issues is angry, verbally abusive, etc., that's not the case.

 

https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/mental-illness-doesnt-excuse-problematic-behavior#1

 

I've grown up around relatives who seemed to have mental health issues, due to trauma and other frustrating life events like job losses, etc, who were physically, emotionally abusive, etc., who'd use their stressful lives as an excuse to abuse or say hurtful things about others who weren't even doing or saying anything negative to them or bothering them.

 

They'd act like a victim, all while blaming and being rude, abusive, etc. toward others. When they were in that severe, mental health state, they'd say that "everyone else is the problem," never reflect about themselves or how hurtful their behavior was toward others.

 

Eventually, it caused me to develop depression, but even though I struggled with mental health issues, too, I didn't say hurtful things to others; they were nice, supportive, etc. and didn't have anything to do with how family members had abused me.

 

I did, actually, feel sympathy for the abuse my relatives had gone through, as children, and how they'd lost their job or couldn't be hired for any, due to not having a car, driver's license, and/or because they didn't have a college degree. But, it was very difficult for me to continue feeling sympathy for them, all while they were saying hurtful, abusive, and threatening things to me.

 

So, I do have sympathy for those struggling with mental health issues, especially having gone through mental health issues, myself, and seeing my relatives struggle with their mental health. But I'm not a fan of rudeness or taking anger out on others; I didn't do that to others, while struggling with my own mental health issues: I was only angry, frustrated, in pain, etc. toward myself.

Ah yes, the obligatory "anger is not a valid response to stress" bit. I hope you don't go around telling angry black women that they aren't allowed to be angry about their lot in life. 

I hope you don't tell PTSD victims they're horrible for lashing out. 

 

Everyone has a different response to stress. You crowing about how you're "better" for randomly being birthed with a different temperament is eerily similar to the "Holier Than Thou" everyone is accusing me of.  Except, you assign moral superiority to a trait that you actually had no hand in. 

 

I have to endure people saying hurtful and abusive things to me, too. You know how I deal with it? Meditation. I know, that being less reactive is MY responsibility. But, if I'm on the internet, and I can't handle something someone says to me? I can click off the thread. Can't do that IRL. Comparing your real world situations in which you are cornered, to my threads that YOU CHOOSE to read is manipulative. So forgive me, if, online, where I have more space to actually stretch my legs, I do so. 

[Skycaptain]

Ultimately all the time we're alive we damage the environment, even when we die and start to decompose we'll emit methane. So the only way we can be eco is to not exist at all 😋😋

[Missing]

3 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

Ultimately all the time we're alive we damage the environment, even when we die and start to decompose we'll emit methane. So the only way we can be eco is to not exist at all 😋😋

Human beings have existed for hundreds of thousands of years without compromising the habitability of the planet. The damage being done to the environment by humans as a species is very recent.

[WoodwindWhistler]

1 hour ago, Skycaptain said:

Ultimately all the time we're alive we damage the environment, even when we die and start to decompose we'll emit methane. So the only way we can be eco is to not exist at all 😋😋

Just one thing to say: Jainism. 

 

Actually two things: Emitting carbon dioxide and methane is beneficial to plants and bacteria who like those gases. If you exist within the natural cycles, everything is fine. Just like a deer munching on grass is not doing "damage" to the environment, in any way shape or form. Any ecologist you tried to run that by would giggle. 

 

1 hour ago, Mackenzie Halloween said:

Human beings have existed for hundreds of thousands of years without compromising the habitability of the planet. The damage being done to the environment by humans as a species is very recent.

Ding Ding Ding. 

 

See also: As previously mentioned, the average first world person consumes up to 7 or 8 times the average human's resources. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

I'm seeing a lot of "our collective demise is outweighed by how individuals may take offense." I mean, obviously. They have all the social leverage against people who wish to avoid food riots and MORE natural disaster or crop failure or drought refugees, aside from the ones that are already scrabbling for places to live. OBVIOUSLY First World People get more consideration, with their delicate little tastes and preferences, than the human race at large. That's how privilege works. @fragglesinthedark @theV0ID @LeChat

 

You have the ability to be chill about it. Because you are safe. I could be, too, but, there are some complicated factors, including intersecting mental health and neurodivergence, that keep me more tortured about it than you are. I haven't slept for more than three or four hours at a time the past two weeks. I'm glad you can sleep. I'm glad you aren't suffering. 

Wow you sure make a heaping load of assumptions here.

 

You are not the only person here with mental illness, your are not the only one who is neurodivergent, you are not the only one who cares about animals the environment, or people struggling to survive. You are not the only one who is suffering. 

 

If you don't want debate and valid criticism make it obvious that your post is a vent thread because that was not at all clear here.

 

4 hours ago, PanFicto. said:

We are lucky in NZ. The majority of the meat I eat comes from pigs hunted in the wild (they're an invasive species in the forest and are killed anyway due to that, so eating them means their death wasn't for nothing!) and the beef and sheep we eat are grass-fed, free-range, and had happy lives wandering in the sun. Obviously that won't please a vegan, but yeah I also find factory farming an abhorrent practice. Definitely not going to run around yelling at people and acting all holier-than-though about it though because that's just going to piss people off!!!

Yeah we're relatively lucky in the UK to, we have our share of horrific farming practices, and the continued allowance of religious slaughter methods is an atrocity, but we still have much higher standards than the USA and we have a lots of diversity in farming practices so it is very easy and not overly pricey (though sadly still out of many people's budget,) to get free range meat and eggs, and in many areas there good sources of hunted venison from necessary deer culls. My biggest concern about Brexit is that we will end up importing cheap meat from the USA, and that our own standards might be eroded.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mackenzie Halloween said:

Human beings have existed for hundreds of thousands of years without compromising the habitability of the planet. The damage being done to the environment by humans as a species is very recent.

Well not really, the big issues of the moment (climate change, pollution etc.) are recent, but we have been hunting species to extinction and dramatically changing the habitats we inhabit ever since our ancestors first spread from Africa. It didn't compromise the habitability of plant (except for the species we destroyed) but we've certainly have been doing a fair bit of damage for millennia.

 

That aside, we all live in the 21st century, and it is all but impossible to not damage the environment, unless you want to live as a hermit. Doesn't mean we can't all do our best to reduce our impact of course, but the biggest thing most people can do to make a real difference is choose not to have children (or as Skycaptain said, die... but I'm certainly not going to be queueing up for that option 😅)

[Phalena]

10 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

My private vents are much uglier and would do more damage. 

I don't expect to change peoples' minds here on AVEN. This is typically not why I come here. But, this time, the impulse to post was potent, and unrelenting. And honestly, I feel a lot better. Sometimes, taking care of your own mental health supersedes other peoples' desire to be comfortable or get you to do what they want you to do. 

 

Just knowing that someone saw a little piece of this gauntlet for once, instead of me having to do the 'emotional labor' of pasting on a smile while talking to a baby eater (lamb or veal), or someone who is setting up their kid for diabetes and literal pain from chronic inflammation, is nice. 

Maybe putting a disclaimer to the original post and re-phrasing some parts can (or could have) smooth(ed) the waves, a little.

[Phalena]

51 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

Well not really, the big issues of the moment (climate change, pollution etc.) are recent, but we have been hunting species to extinction and dramatically changing the habitats we inhabit ever since our ancestors first spread from Africa. It didn't compromise the habitability of plant (except for the species we destroyed) but we've certainly have been doing a fair bit of damage for millennia.

 

That aside, we all live in the 21st century, and it is all but impossible to not damage the environment, unless you want to live as a hermit. Doesn't mean we can't all do our best to reduce our impact of course, but the biggest thing most people can do to make a real difference is choose not to have children (or as Skycaptain said, die... but I'm certainly not going to be queueing up for that option 😅)

That reminds of this article I've read ones: It was about the Romans completely destroying forests. Within a few years the entire region they settled in was turned into planes because wood was used for almost everything. The results: The ecosystem of that place was dead. Conditions worsened drastically, nothing would grow anymore. But there were also critiques who lamented the loss of the beauty and health the place ones had.

[J. van Deijck]

I feel this thread belongs to Hot Box.

[Phalena]

28 minutes ago, Jelle van der Lee said:

I feel this thread belongs to Hot Box.

Kinda... On the other hand there are many half-serious responses. A moderator has to decide, I suppose.

[Missing]

5 hours ago, theV0ID said:

Well not really, the big issues of the moment (climate change, pollution etc.) are recent, but we have been hunting species to extinction and dramatically changing the habitats we inhabit ever since our ancestors first spread from Africa. It didn't compromise the habitability of plant (except for the species we destroyed) but we've certainly have been doing a fair bit of damage for millennia.

The point I was making was just that we don’t all have to cease existing in order to be sufficiently eco-friendly. Humans as a species are plenty capable of living sustainable lifestyles. We don’t need to find a way to eliminate the methane that’s produced when humans decompose in order to succeed at combating climate change, but we do need to rethink many of the facets of modern life.

[WoodwindWhistler]

7 hours ago, theV0ID said:

You are not the only person here with mental illness, your are not the only one who is neurodivergent, you are not the only one who cares about animals the environment, or people struggling to survive. You are not the only one who is suffering. 

I didn't say I was, but if you read one of my other threads, you could maybe understand why this knife is buried particularly deep into me, such that sometimes I have to take 4 hours of meditation just to be able to breathe without pain or anxiety.  

[J. van Deijck]

Oh God. Animal suffering is not funny at all, but this thread is certainly amusing.

[Pandark]

On 11/4/2020 at 7:22 PM, WoodwindWhistler said:

All those dirt poor people don't matter. You can forget them, and poke fun at me, the messenger, on the forums. 

I appreciate you being concerned with others. If you really wish to assume some of that responsibility, I can offer some tips.

 

People make their choices for their reasons, not yours. This is so when they buy a box of cookies or a microwave, but also an ideology. So rather than showering them with boatloads of information, you might as well start asking them questions. Don't ask "hey, why are you being such a jerk to animals?!" Ask them what their considerations are when they make a certain choice. Find both the things that resonate well and the things that sit uneasy with them. Don't be blunt, just make casual conversation and above all don't judge. There is a thing called cognitive dissonance, meaning people want to act according to the opinions they express. Getting them to think out loud is all it takes to set them on the right track. Also, be realistic, it's highly unlikely someone will instantly embrace your stance. Consider this and with time, your impact will be much, much greater,

[Guest]

@WoodwindWhistler

I read the original post, and it feels to me as though you are indirectly advocating *against* all of the dietary choices, but not *for* any alternative. What I'd like to know is if you had intended to demonstrate one of the options to be the preferable choice, because it didn't seem like it. I'm not against meat consumption, hunting, or raising animals for food. I am against how we do those things. Some animals shouldn't be hunted/raised for food due to being endangered or the low yield of the resources they yield. I think answering the dietary question is a matter of "work smarter, not harder". 

[J. van Deijck]

Is this thread going to be continued? I've already started collecting chairs and ordering popcorn.