Master Independent Thread

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Would you consider voting for any candidate who is neither a donkey nor an elephant; whether national or local?  Have you done so in the past?  Is there anyone not part of the duopoly that you wish(ed) would win?

[Guest]

I voted for Bernie in the primaries both this year and in 2016. There have been few independent/non-duopoly candidates to choose from in either local or national elections. There isn't a candidate that even comes close to my beliefs and that I would feel.comfortable voting for. Libertarians are just far right nutjobs in the national elections and there are no true left wing candidates. So I'm stuck with either compromising my beliefs or voting for someone who is "least bad". That is not freedom in any way, shape, or form. 

[Ldlelee]

Yes, because I don't identify with either the Republican or Democratic party, and I'd rather vote for someone who has similar ideals to my own than one or the other just because they're major candidates. The only thing is, a lot of people are still under the impression that this is a binary election, and a lot of people's focus is on just making sure Trump doesn't get re-elected. So it's a hard choice between voting for the candidate you want and one that you know might win.

[Missing]

I don't identify as Republican or Democrat, but I almost always vote Democrat. I want to avoid the most harmful candidates gaining power, and I want to help push the Overton window left enough that someday my more honest votes will have similar effects as my Democratic votes.

[Violet of the Stars]

46 minutes ago, Mackenzie Holiday said:

I don't identify as Republican or Democrat, but I almost always vote Democrat. I want to avoid the most harmful candidates gaining power, and I want to help push the Overton window left enough that someday my more honest votes will have similar effects as my Democratic votes.

I agree with this. It's ridiculous that things considered unthinkably liberal are considered moderate views in the rest of the world.

[Gloomy]

Yes, I've done it many times. I'll likely never vote for a democrat or republican again.

[Rockblossom]

Lifelong registered Independent here who dislikes political parties of all stripes.  When I first registered to vote the ballots had a checkbox to vote for all Democrats or all Republicans.  I didn't vote in the primaries because voters had to be registered with the party to cast a primary vote.  Some things have improved.  The checkbox is gone (much to the weeping and wailing of old voters who didn't want to think about issues or candidates) and in my state, Independents can vote in any party primary (but not more than one) or off-season election without indicating a party membership.  Candidates are listed for each office randomly, though their party affiliation is shown after the name.  I wish they would eliminate the party affiliation on the general election ballots and just list names.  That would surely get more weeping and wailing, but I think it would be an improvement.

 

  I also think the media reinforces the "binary choice" mentality by incessant coverage of Dems and Reps while ignoring any other people running for office.  It is so overwhelming  that a lot of people believe that the Party primaries and conventions are an inherent part of the political process, when they are not.  The Constitution does not address political parties at all.  Technically, the election cycle doesn't begin until each state has passed the date for accepting or rejecting candidates for each political office and is ready to finalize and print ballots.  That varies by state, but is  usually somewhere Aug- Oct of an election year.  Everything before that is Party activity to select their own candidates for office.

 

I have voted for third party and Independent candidates for office, mostly at state and local levels where they sometimes win.  It is only at the national and higher office state contests where the two parties dominate.  I would very much like to see that change with more independent and third-party candidates elected to Congress, where the major parties would then  have to make concessions to form a majority.  I also wish I knew how to make that happen, but I don't.

[EvaKnievel]

I'm going to take this opportunity to share my love of PRSTV, which is the voting system in Ireland, the country I come from. It is a system designed to make gerrymandering impossible, Irish people have a bit of a gift for gaming the system so this is a system that is exceptionally difficult to game.

 

First some important terms:

Dáil: Pronounced Doil, Irish parliament, lower house, similar to the American House of Representatives or English House of Commons

Teachta Dála or TD: Person who has been elected to the Dáil

Taoiseach:  Pronounced 'Tea Shock', Head of government in Ireland, but similar to Majority Leader in USA but more like the Prime Minister in the UK

Seanad: Pronounced shan-ed, upper house, more similar to the House of Lords than the American Senate

 

Like America we have a lower house, an upper house, a president and an independent judiciary. Unlike America the Seanad get their seats through a variety of means, they are elected in by local government, appointed by the Taoiseach, voted in by college graduates and certain interest groups. Their power is that they can get their name in the paper a lot easier and they can delay a bill from being passed (similar to the house of lords). The president is nominated by local government and only has the power to refer a law to the supreme court if he/she believes it's unconstitutional, he can also visit other countries as a representative of Ireland and has a nice house.

 

All the real power is in the lower house and there are 160 members each of whom are elected through the most beautifully democratic process ever imagined. So take the number of registered voters in Ireland divide by 160 and that's the quota, you need that many votes to become a TD. When you run in an election you do so in a constituency which can't have less than 3 seats and can't have more than 5. Anyone can be a TD, they need to pay a 1000 euro to be on the ballot, that's all that's required.  When people vote they take a ballot paper with a list of all the candidates and they write a number beside each name putting them in an order of preference.

 

All the votes are then divided by first preference and then counted, every politician that gets above the quota is automatically elected and a number of votes which is in excess of the quota is randomly selected and they are assigned to the 2nd preference in the next round of voting. The politician who got the least votes is removed and their votes are distributed to the other candidates based on the 2nd preference. If a vote does not include a 2nd preference it is considered spoiled at this stage. This continues in rounds until the the number of candidates remaining matches the number of seats, they are considered elected and become TDs. Almost every single vote that put down all the preferences contributes towards a politician getting elected.

 

The reason it's called PRSTV is because it's proportional representation (multiple seats per constituency) and single transferable vote (order of preference voting) and it is the most democratic system I've ever come across.

 

Once all the TDs are elected they negotiate with each other about who should be the Taoiseach and that Taoiseach appoints the ministers or department heads for each section of government. It's pretty rare in this system for a single party to get into government alone, there are usually a large number of indepedents who may or may not support the government depending on deals made.  It's considered an exceptionally weak government if they have to use more than 2 different parties to get a full majority.

 

The impact on our politics is incredible, we have no far right parties, we have center left and center right parties who go into government together. Politics is all about compromise and we recently had two referendums Marriage Equality and Abortion Rights which were passed with a sizeable majority which is amazing considering that up until I was 8 (1993) it will still illegal to be gay in Ireland. We also used to lock up women who would have children without being married in laundries where they were forced to work under the prison guards who were nuns. We also have banned money in politics and there is actually state funding for the major political parties to run elections.

 

TL;DR: I have voted for independents

[Alaska Native Manitou]

@EvaKnievelThat mostly sounds good, but the 1000 Euro fee is alarming.  Only a rich person or someone conservative enough to attract financial interests can run.

[daveb]

Unlike in the US where it takes 100s of thousands to millions of dollars or more to run?  

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Exactly.

[Forest Spirit]

10 hours ago, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

@EvaKnievelThat mostly sounds good, but the 1000 Euro fee is alarming.  Only a rich person or someone conservative enough to attract financial interests can run.

I guess it is used for all the administrative stuff connected to an election. 1000€ is still manageable (imo)

[Jusey1]

I voted for 3rd party last time because I didn't like Trump or Hillary (though I am glad Trump won over Hillary since the latter was obviously a corrupted bee).

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Here's a site that lists all declared candidates:  https://www.politics1.com/index.htm

[HibernoHistorian]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:53 AM, Leedle-Lee said:

The only thing is, a lot of people are still under the impression that this is a binary election, and a lot of people's focus is on just making sure Trump doesn't get re-elected. So it's a hard choice between voting for the candidate you want and one that you know might win.

I feel this. I would much rather see a three-party system and really want to vote someone I actually want instead of just "Well... Better than the alternative," but I'm also horrified at the thought of four more years of Trump and am aware that, living in a very red state, there's no way that a third party candidate would make it. I doubt that even a vote for Biden would make that much of a difference, but at least it has a better chance, in my reasoning. But I want better. I don't really know the best thing to do, maybe there will be a better opportunity in the future.

 

Also, I like the ranked system as well. I've not yet figured it out completely, but I like the idea of being able to vote for a first preference first but still not lose it if they don't get the position. 

[iff]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:46 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

@EvaKnievelThat mostly sounds good, but the 1000 Euro fee is alarming.  Only a rich person or someone conservative enough to attract financial interests can run.

There is also another option for independents, they could get 30 signatures from constituents  in a statutory declaration endorsing their run as well. 

 

While if you receive a quarter of a quota in the election (my constituency is 5 seats) which would be 4.2%, you do get a refund of election expenses up to 8,700 euro

 

 

That was a really good explanation from @EvaKnievel

 

 

On 9/8/2020 at 1:01 AM, daveb said:

Unlike in the US where it takes 100s of thousands to millions of dollars or more to run?  

There is even limit on what can be spent in the 4 weeks from when election is called to election day.

I think for s 3 seater, the maximum is 30k, 4 seater is 37k and 5 seater is 45k

[Alaska Native Manitou]

On 9/8/2020 at 1:03 AM, Quasar.w said:

I guess it is used for all the administrative stuff connected to an election. 1000€ is still manageable (imo)

I wish I were as rich as you.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

 

Suppression of third parties

[Gloomy]

[R_1]

A question for those that are not voting Trump/Biden, but for someone else.

 

How do you feel about Ranked Choice Voting?

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Sound great.  Allowing people to have a conscience & be pragmatic at the same time.  It's also good if you are feeling indecisive.

[Gloomy]

Sure I'd be okay with ranked choice voting. Personally I still wouldn't include any democrat/republican candidates in my ranking though.

[HibernoHistorian]

I like ranked choice as well, I think. There was actually a petition in my state to get a bill adding ranked-choice to the ballot this year, but I guess they didn't get enough names or something because I don't think it's going to be on the ballot. 

 

Although! There is a third-party candidate for senate in my state that I think I might like. Will he replace the current Republican senator? No way, but it's a start, maybe.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

In Oregon we have mail in ballots; I filled & mailed mine a few days ago.📫  Earlier today I was doing my job--political polling.❓  One Democrat asked "Who did you vote for?"  When I told her she exploded saying I'm an idiot & I wasted my vote before hanging up.  It's a lot like religious bigotry.

[Alaska Native Manitou]

Well, it's over for this year.  The presidential race was of course too polarized for independents to have much impact.  What about local races?  Do you know of any 3rd party candidates having success?

[SithLord]

I like 3rd parties for the most part, but sometimes they're just as crazy and more inexperienced. Sometimes people vote for them because they stand for the same morals, even though they're even less likely to get what they want through Congress.

 

I liked John Oliver's take on it last time around.

 

[HibernoHistorian]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:44 PM, 2SpiritCherokeePrincess said:

Well, it's over for this year.  The presidential race was of course too polarized for independents to have much impact.  What about local races?  Do you know of any 3rd party candidates having success?

A third-party candidate ran for senate in my state and got like 33% of the vote. Granted, looking at how the map of his support pretty much exactly lined up with with counties supporting Biden and considering that he was the only person running against the Republican incumbent, my guess is that the majority of that was Democrats who just wanted Tom Cotton out, rather than actual support for a third party. But, you know, that's something. Maybe there's actually a chance of a third party being viable  here, who knows. 

[Oberon Jasper]

I consider myself a transcendentalist anarchist so absolutely.

[Blue eyes white dragon]

I did this past year. I voted for that chick cuz even though I didnt agree with everything, she seemed pretty reasonable and did have a lot I was for. Of course I had to lie to a lot of people who I voted for or just say that's none of your business. I only say I'm an independent because I honestly have no idea what my views get labeled as anymore, it gets confusing 

[Alaska Native Manitou]