Should we retake ”spinster” for aroaces?

[LeChat]

1 hour ago, CBC said:

I don't get why it has to be gender-neutral. Does everything have to be gender-neutral these days?...

Well, gender-neutral terms are more inclusive, like someone else mentioned; gender neutral terms don't cause an instant division between sexes, genders, etc.

 

Some people (e.g. agender, bigender people) etc. feel dysphoria when being referred to gendered terms, like "spinster," "sir," etc. Others just don't want to feel like they're being forced to be labeled according to their assigned sex, with a term that they don't like. For some, gendered terms can feel as though they're based on gender stereotypes of whom you're expected to be, according to your assigned sex.

[verily-forsooth-egads]

1 hour ago, CBC said:

I don't get why it has to be gender-neutral. Does everything have to be gender-neutral these days? Egads. I guess this is the point at which my liberal-minded commie ass starts sounding like a conservative. 

Just, why shouldn't it be? The ace community doesn't have gender lines. We're a big gender soup and I love it that way.

 

That being said, as a nonbinary person I recognize that people who identify as women may have reasons for choosing to form groups around that identity which aren't fully comprehensible to me, and it's not my place to take that away from them. But only if they actually strongly want it, not just because we can or because that's what the old term meant.

[Snao Cone]

Spinster isn't used as commonly as other gendered terms, so it should be easier to drop that association and make it feel neutral. Otherwise we can't call people who act "actors" and we can't call people with light hair "blondes". Things can be changed to implicitly neutral. 

[verily-forsooth-egads]

Just now, CBC said:

Why should it be? Everyone and everything in the universe can't cater to every single human being's highly specific proclivities.

 

To me, it just sounds like people looking for problems where there aren't any. Focus on gender-neutral bathrooms or something.

What? This is about a brand new term we are in the process of inventing, by aces, for aces. I just don't think introducing new gendered terms would benefit the community as a whole.

[Snao Cone]

Spinster should be neutral, while the feminine should be spinstrix and the masculine spinteur. 

[verily-forsooth-egads]

 

3 minutes ago, CBC said:

Uhhh... 'spinster' isn't a brand new term...

It is now. We're reclaiming it. It means what we decide it means, right here, right now.

 

Unless we decide to leave well enough alone, which is still a perfectly good option.

[Snao Cone]

2 minutes ago, CBC said:

That makes literally no sense. 'Spinster' doesn't automatically refer to people with no innate desire for sex. A spinster is an unmarried older woman. There's nothing for asexual aromantics to 'reclaim'.

Well, "butch" means things outside of lesbian culture, but we still usually understand it as meaning something within lesbian culture. 

[Snao Cone]

It could also mean what a person intends to become. Like a scrawny 14 year old gay boy who can't grow a beard might aspire to be a bear. And maybe he will be, if it looks like his genes are in favour of an outcome. An aro ace young person can still think of themselves like a spinster out of aspiration, or something like that. 

 

I guess I just don't think that it should be offensive for me to say I'm a spinster and for someone to ask "Oh, does that mean you're aro ace?" It shouldn't be offensive to other aro ace people, or anyone else who sees themselves as a spinster but is neither aro nor ace. 

[LeChat]

26 minutes ago, Snao Cone (me) said:

...I guess I just don't think that it should be offensive for me to say I'm a spinster and for someone to ask "Oh, does that mean you're aro ace?" It shouldn't be offensive to other aro ace people, or anyone else who sees themselves as a spinster but is neither aro nor ace. 

That's fine, if you're okay with being referred to as "spinster." It's just that, since society defines it as "an unmarried (old) woman," not everyone identifies as a woman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster

[Snao Cone]

1 hour ago, LeChat said:

That's fine, if you're okay with being referred to as "spinster." It's just that, since society defines it as "an unmarried (old) woman," not everyone identifies as an old woman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster

I...don't quite get how this response applies to my post.

[Snao Cone]

Anyway, I appear to be bothering established members of the community by expressing opinions, so I'm going to get back to shitposting and memes to protect my reputation.

[Janus the Fox]

I've seen Spinster used in my really old Grand-parentage Marriage Certificate.  That was in the 1950s , back then it was described as an older woman whose older than typical marriage age who never married, grandparents where in their 20s.  Spinster was also an occupation of a person that spun thread around a spindle for a living like as back to the 1500s in Britain.  Time to bring back the job title  

[Guest]

Just a thought from someone who is neither aro/ace nor identifies female, we already have instances of communities with multiple interchangeable labels. If someone would like to use "spinster" instead of aro/ace, I'd compare that to using lesbian instead of homosexual female. I've always known spinster as a term for a profession or an older unwed woman. Another angle, spinsters had to start out as younger unmarried women before reaching that point. It seems to me to be a fair idea to reclaim the word to mean "female aro/ace" if not "gender neutral aro/ace."

[Gifted With Singleness]

I wouldn't use the word "spinster" for myself, since that word has feminine associations and I'm male. But I will say that the word "aroace" doesn't really feel like a very natural label for me. Sure, I'll use it, but it feels like the equivalent of calling an average gay person "homorohomo" or "gayrogayce". It's this weird artificial two-label mashup that really doesn't roll off the tongue. (Okay, I guess "homorohomo" does have some nice assonance to it - no pun intended - but you get my point.)

 

Yes, I understand that the split attraction model is very important specifically for romantic aces (and I don't want to undermine that at all), but is it wrong for me to think that there should be a simple word for a generalized lack of attraction? "Aroace" is a complicated label for a simple concept, and that just feels off to me. That's all.

 

Right now, I'm partial to "non-attracted". It's a simple enough label that really only applies to aroaces. That might be the best we can do.

[Phalena]

15 hours ago, Moon Spirit ☽ said:

No one sees any problem with males being single and "spinster" has always been used for females so I think it should stay that way. 

We nee a Word for them, too, then. 

[verily-forsooth-egads]

12 minutes ago, MiffKeks said:

We nee a Word for them, too, then. 

See this is the slippery slope I'm talking about, is there a good reason to create divisions that weren't there before? Does anyone actually think this is a productive course of action?

[Luftschlosseule]

I just want to add that the male counterpart is "confirmed bachelor", not simply "bachelor".

Like "you know, we had our suspicions, and now we know that person is queer".

And if you look into Queer history, you'll see that both terms were only derogatory at times, while at other times, it was okay. In most of these cases, you can pinpoint the damage to the Victorians. Thanks, guys.

 

Also, I wonder how old catlady seems to be seen as slur online while in my area, it has been claimed back ages ago. Now it is more of a "I can chose my company, and I am not chosing you. I chose felines because they're way cuter".

[fuzzipueo]

What, exactly, is being "reclaimed"? The word has its origins in the 1300s, not the 21 century. It was never exclusively used to define aroaces, but to define an occupation and unmarried women over a particular age. Most people are going to keep to those definitions, since those are re ones they know, and you'll find yourself having to explain a whole new definition which doesn't exist anywhere else, online or in a dictionary. 

[Phalena]

4 hours ago, verily-forsooth-egads said:

See this is the slippery slope I'm talking about, is there a good reason to create divisions that weren't there before? Does anyone actually think this is a productive course of action?

Well, considering that most "nicknames" with negative connotations are to be considered feminine in gender (grammatically and "physically") we can either try to use it for male unmarried people, too or we can find a word for them. Language creates reality and being called a "spinster" is negative. It's like with nudity, we can have more naked men or less naked women in media but since the second won't happen why not try the first? Sure, there also needed to be a gender-neutral word describing the same.

It's just... As long as it is an offense, that is mostly used from a patriachal perspective, creating a word for men that describes the same in a similar manner can be a type of defense. To let certain people who think women must be married "feel" how mean it is to be called names. To take the entirety of such words ad absurdum.

[LeChat]

1 hour ago, MiffKeks said:

Well, considering that most "nicknames" with negative connotations are to be considered feminine in gender (grammatically and "physically") we can either try to use it for male unmarried people, too...

Some AMAB people get bullied for anything related with femininity or that others regard as feminine. So, that's one reason why some AMAB people might not feel keen with using "spinster." They don't feel like being bullied or laughed at for it by others, especially other AMAB people.

 

1 hour ago, MiffKeks said:

...or we can find a word for them...Sure, there also needed to be a gender-neutral word describing the same...

There's "single," as an option; it's also gender neutral.

 

I thought this was interesting, that England and Wales replaced "spinster" with "single."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster

 

Quote

...In 2005, in England and Wales, the term was abolished in favour of "single" for the purpose of marriage registration...

 

I don't know whether or not this might be the case for others, too, whether one reason some aroaces don't like or want to use the term to describe themselves, but, outside of AVEN, when others express interest in dating me, I just say that I don't date and that I'm not interested in dating. I don't use "asexual" or "aroace" partly because, yes, I'm afraid of being judged and questioned about my entire life by others who've never heard those terms, before.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Luftschlosseule said:

 

Also, I wonder how old catlady seems to be seen as slur online while in my area, it has been claimed back ages ago.

Same here, I've seen it used online in a contemptuous sort of way, like [bitter] men saying "Girls if you don't lower your standards you'll end up a crazy old cat lady" (direct quote), but in real life I and several other women I know have proudly self described as crazy cat ladies. I even have a mug with in written on.

[Phalena]

1 hour ago, theV0ID said:

Same here, I've seen it used online in a contemptuous sort of way, like [bitter] men saying "Girls if you don't lower your standards you'll end up a crazy old cat lady" (direct quote), but in real life I and several other women I know have proudly self described as crazy cat ladies. I even have a mug with in written on.

Why is it that so many people telll girls and women to "lower their standards"? Because normally (from my experiences), those "standards" are actually quite modest, if we're being honest. Lowering them would mean to end up with people giving nothing in a relationship while simultaneously being awful to be around. Let me guess, this quote usually comes from fellas that believe that there is something like a "natural right" to "have a woman"?

[fuzzipueo]

23 hours ago, MiffKeks said:

Why is it that so many people telll girls and women to "lower their standards"? Because normally (from my experiences), those "standards" are actually quite modest, if we're being honest. Lowering them would mean to end up with people giving nothing in a relationship while simultaneously being awful to be around. Let me guess, this quote usually comes from fellas that believe that there is something like a "natural right" to "have a woman"?

I'd say so, plus it gives you an idea of just how those men see themselves, which is kind of sad, really.

[Tystie]

By chance, I’m listening to ‘Word of Mouth’ podcast (BBC Radio 4) for 28 July, 2020. The episode is called ‘Words Used About Women’, and it includes a discussion around the use and meaning of spinster, bachelor and bachelorette (and lots more beside).

 

[Myssterry]

As someone who grew up hearing the term spinster used in a nasty, loaded way towards unmarried women I was so pleased when it was dropped along with the equally horrible term "old maid".  Please don't try and bring either of them back.  Both terms should remain in the dustbin of history.

 

Newspapers would actually use the term spinster in headlines.  E.g. Spinster leaves everything to her cat in her will.  It was as though there were men, women and spinsters. 

[MorningHaze]

6 hours ago, Mz Terry said:

As someone who grew up hearing the term spinster used in a nasty, loaded way towards unmarried women I was so pleased when it was dropped along with the equally horrible term "old maid".  Please don't try and bring either of them back.  Both terms should remain in the dustbin of history.

I agree. I heard them as well (the french equivalent of them of course) when I was younger and I used to laugh about it and say i'll become like that (and i wasn't even aware I was aroace back then, the irony) but since then I forgot they existed and I think it should stay like that. I don't know about other's experiences with it but for myself, I'll be glad if these words just disappeared from our vocabulary 

[Nugatory]

I have definitely posted on FB, "I wish 'Spinster' were an option to choose from" for relationship status.

[everywhere and nowhere]

On 7/29/2020 at 6:32 PM, nanogretchen4 said:

It took on an insulting connotation because women who never marry are viewed so negatively.

And yet this is something I'm proud of instead of perceiving it negatively. For me it shows that I live my life according to my own values. I don't rush with the crowd. I know that my body is my property and that nobody can force me to share it with others if I don't want to do it. I don't let the society tell me that there is one single path to happiness for a woman and that outside this path there's only despair. So, personally, I by all means reclaim the term "spinster", I would, for example, by all means wear a "Proud to be a spinster" T-shirt.

I'm just against this term being used for aro aces only. Please no elitism, don't assume that relationship-desiring aces are less ace. I do desire a relationship, but I'm less than 0% open to personally having sex, I'm not heteroromantic anyway, so I'm far from "basically cishet with the exception that I don't desire sex", and I don't even "find myself" in the standard elationship model (still, it's also a fact that I have never been successful in forming a relationship, I just don't know how people do that). My ideal lies somewhere between the 19th-century model of "romantic friendship" between women (basic reading on that: "Surpassing the Love of Men" by Lilian Faderman - a very eye-opening book, at least for someone who does experience mental rapture through reading and not just calm interest), a feminist utopia and an intense, spiritual, ego-melting love. So once again it turns out that I'm philosophically a descendant of romanticism, feminism and the psychedelic movement, all of these mental currents have influenced me in a way which makes it impossible to separate them from my life because there's no life of mine without these fascinations.

[verily-forsooth-egads]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:44 AM, CBC said:

Are we really using phrases like 'slippery slope' and 'create divisions'? Christ. There's already a division in the sense that 'spinster' does not refer to men. And there's no reason for it to do so. Everyone doesn't have to have everything.

What's wrong with talking about divisions? There currently aren't any gendered words for aces or aro aces. If we reclaim "spinster" for ace women, there will be. I'm not saying that's a horrible thing, I'm just saying we should think twice about it.

 

Edit: To be clear, the alternative this is contrasting is just to not use "spinster" at all.

[consequent sentiment]

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