“Just Divorce and Stay Friends”

[ryn2]

This isn’t directed at any poster or thread in particular, but it always bothers me when people suggest - most typically as an alternative or solution to the problems faced in a mixed ace/sexual marriage - “why don’t you just get a divorce and go back to being good friends?”

 

Divorce is ranked as the second-most-stressful life event, behind only death of a spouse.  That puts it above things like job loss, major illness, and even death of a child!

 

For many people, especially those somewhere in the middle of the socioeconomic spectrum, it means not just a paper change in net worth but a significant downwards shift in real, lived standard of living.  It generally means a move for one or both parties, which can also include the loss of neighbor-friends and favorite activities.  It can mean the loss of beloved pets, extended family, access to healthcare, etc.

 

And that’s just for couples without kids, and doesn’t take into consideration the loss of companionship from the breakup itself.

 

I’m not saying “maybe you should split up” is bad advice, nor that getting divorced isn’t the right choice for people... just that it frustrates me to see it talked about like it’s just a simple case of renaming a sexless relationship “the friendship it is anyway.”

[Astrea]

Who is ranking this as the 'second-most stressful event' and on which basis? There is no such statistics in French and in a lot of countries nowadays almost one couple out of two gets a divorce. People who have divorced several times are not uncommon. I'm not saying that this isn't sad or that some people can't have trouble recovering from it. But I know a lot of divorcés who were completely fine with the divorce and stayed good friends with their ex-spouse. Most of the people I know who lived difficult divorces had more trouble dealing with the events which led to it (generally one of the spouse cheating on the other)

 

I have met people who lost a child too. Splitting up as the result of losing a child is very common , by the way

I  am not sure any of these people would agree with that ranking. People who lost a child and could never recover from the ordeal, these are people I've met.

 

Sorry but presenting divorce that way sounds a bit like it's backing up an agenda (the religious kind, especially). I'm not saying it's what you do, but I feel like the numbers could come from that kind of source. I would handle that topic cautiously as well from this side : a lot of women get divorced after being subjected to abuse and psychological / physical violence and, from your post, it sounds like getting raped or demeaned by your spouse is less stressful than divorcing them, which is not an idea anyone can get behind.
And yeah... I've worked as a lawyer (criminal and family law) and everyone tells you that losing a child is the worst thing that could ever happen to you, which I whole-heartedly believe despite not having children of my own. Once again, comparing that with a divorce sounds deeply wrong to me.

[KiraS]

I suspect the agenda here is asking people to tone down the aggressive gaslighting of people who make mixed relationships work. 

[Guest]

Personally, I never understood staying in a marriage you hate. I divorced my ex and I would do it again in a heart beat. Sure, it cost me his paycheck, I had to drive across country in a car that I didn't know if it could handle it with not enough money to save myself if it broke down. But, would do that again too. I got a career and a new marriage for doing it. Plus three insane dogs. I would choose freedom to be happy over financial benefit of my ex's huge paycheck any day. 

 

My parents got divorced and my mom is very happy about that. My dad, who knows. Not talked to him since he made sexual advances on me. But he is remarried, with new kids. So ill assume he is happy with it. 

 

Most my coworkers have been divorced at some point in their lives. 

 

Many people get over divorces and move on with their lives. So, it is a perfectly valid choice. Though, "just divorce and remain friends" is complicated, especially when one doesn't really want to divorce. So, it can be a difficult thing to do. Often friendship is impossible after. 

 

Also, not sure where you are getting rankings? I looked up most stressful life events and death of a spouse or child ranks #1 in all of them I could find, so wouldn't be behind death of a child. Divorce ranks second... but on the lists tend to be things like job changes and moving as well, which are pretty mundane things people do often. And on some marriage itself ranks as one of the most stressful things in life.

 

Divorce isn't simple, but I don't think it should be seen as so evil as some people put it as on here. I never want to be in a marriage where leaving is not an option, or would be seen as a life destroying option. That just sounds so unhealthy. And I fully support my wife having a life outside of our marriage, because I dont want her to depend solely on me for stability. If she ever doesn't like our relationship, she should leave. 

 

That said, I do think I know the posts that spurred this and yeah. It is casually thrown out in some threads like its the only option and transitioning the relationship should be easy. 

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Astrea said:

Who is ranking this as the 'second-most stressful event' and on which basis?

Here is an example.  I should probably have said “in the US” as it may vary from country to country.

 

https://www.dartmouth.edu/eap/library/lifechangestresstest.pdf

 

1 hour ago, Astrea said:

 

Sorry but presenting divorce that way sounds a bit like it's backing up an agenda (the religious kind, especially). I'm not saying it's what you do, but I feel like the numbers could come from that kind of source.

I can see why you might think that, but the sources I’ve seen have all been counseling/psych-related and not religion-related.

 

45 minutes ago, KiraS said:

I suspect the agenda here is asking people to tone down the aggressive gaslighting of people who make mixed relationships work.

No agenda.  It just bothers me when people don’t acknowledge that splitting up can be a very large change in ways that extend well beyond the interpersonal bond itself.

 

Which is not to say I’m in favor of any sort of gaslighting/otherwise arguing with people about their lived experiences!

 

35 minutes ago, Serran said:

Divorce isn't simple, but I don't think it should be seen as so evil as some people put it as on here.

I don’t think divorce is evil, or a bad solution.  I just think it comes across as cavalier to talk about it as a simple change in relationship status.

 

35 minutes ago, Serran said:

Also, not sure where you are getting rankings?

I linked one above but I’ve seen it numerous other places as well.

 

35 minutes ago, Serran said:

That said, I do think I know the posts that spurred this

Nothing specific, I just get upset when I see it... potentially projecting because it’s been awful for me and no one seems to “get it,” but I’ve talked to other people with similar experiences.

 

35 minutes ago, Serran said:

It is casually thrown out in some threads like its the only option and transitioning the relationship should be easy.

Yes, the bolded part is what bugs me.  Not that people are recommending that others split up - that can absolutely be the best idea! - but that they talk as though it’s trivial.

 

~
 

Just to be clear, my point isn’t that people should stay in relationships that make them unhappy.  It’s that divorcing is much more complicated and impactful than just realigning your feelings for/expectations of your partner.

[Guest]

Eh, I know people who would definitely not agree with this ranking. The few divorced people I've actually discussed it with have all said it was the best decision they've ever made, they only wished they'd done it sooner. I've got 2 friends who are going through a divorce right now (I am close friends with both) and in the few months before covid lockdown they were the happiest I have ever known them. It was genuinely amazing how just the decision to divorce, before they'd even started working towards it, improved how they interacted with each other when we all went out to dinner together.

 

 I'm sure it's extremely stressful for many people, especially when the couple have help on to their marriage to the point where they hate each other, but for many people, when it's amicable and well planned, it can be a positive process. Also, 'stressful' doesn't mean 'not worth doing'. The most stressful things I've done in my life all ended up being the best experiences in my life.

[ryn2]

Just to clarify for people who prefer not to work their way through long posts:  my point was not that divorce is a bad solution, just that it has a much broader impact than simply changing relationship status.

 

It doesn’t bother me to see people suggesting it, and I don’t think staying together is best for everyone.  I just hate to see “Oh, just get divorced and stay friends!  Problem solved!” thrown around like it’s nothing.

[ryn2]

(It bothers me in the same way it would bother me to hear people - in response to someone struggling with challenges in an intercontinental long-distance relationship - saying “so why not just move there and be together?”  Like, yeah, that absolutely may be the right solution... but it’s not “just” and there are tons of significant considerations beyond the romantic relationship involved.)

[Alejandrogynous]

I think it can get thrown around a bit flippantly as a solution and that's not always helpful, but I also don't think building it up into this big traumatizing thing is the best route either. So many people choose to stay in relationships they're unhappy in because all those side-effects of leaving seem insurmountable, only to finally leave years later and regret not doing it sooner. We shouldn't be dismissive of those effects, divorce (or ending a relationship regardless of marriage status) isn't an easy thing to go through and yeah, "just split, problem solved!" isn't a realistic way to view the situation. Life is complicated. Relationships are complicated. But people get divorced every day and are better for it so painting it as this awful trauma to be avoided unless there's no other option isn't realistic either.

 

But yeah, I cannot fathom anybody ranking divorce as more traumatic than the death of a child (which isn't even included in that linked list, btw).

[TurnedTurtle]

Divorce pertains to marriage, so what a divorce looks like will depend on how one defines the marriage that is being dissolved. Marriage can mean many things (and different things to different people), but from the point of view of what divorce means in most jurisdictions (at least here in the US), marriage is ultimately (primarily?) a legal/financial arrangement. Divorce can be looked at as simply a business transaction (especially if the custody and support minor children is not a factor).  Sure there is or can be all kinds of other components to a marriage, and thus all kinds of other (emotional) considerations in a divorce, too...

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

We shouldn't be dismissive of those effects, divorce (or ending a relationship regardless of marriage status) isn't an easy thing to go through and yeah, "just split, problem solved!" isn't a realistic way to view the situation. Life is complicated. Relationships are complicated.

*nods*
 

8 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

But people get divorced every day and are better for it so painting it as this awful trauma to be avoided unless there's no other option isn't realistic either.

Agreed.  I am absolutely not advocating for this, just for understanding that it’s not a trivial change.

[anisotrophic]

1 hour ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I cannot fathom anybody ranking divorce as more traumatic than the death of a child (which isn't even included in that linked list, btw)

Yes, I think that's probably overstating the point. That research was only "death of a close family member" which is going to be dominated by parents, then siblings; children would be very rare & as a parent I can only imagine how traumatic it is – it probably depends a bit on the context (e.g. severe congenital conditions, adulthood psychiatric issues), but easily far more traumatic.

Setting that aside, I agree that sometimes this "solution" can be bandied about too flippantly. Maybe in some cases someone simply hasn't had firsthand experience of the cost – attribute it to youth, maybe, or not having lived with deep entanglements like home ownership, joint bank accounts, children, and/or years of social connections connected to geography and/or shared social contexts.

I think there is a positive aspect in wanting to help someone in a painful situation recognize that they can take responsibility for their role in that situation existing and persisting. It's frustrating to watch someone be a victim without owning any capacity for getting out of that situation.

 

And I think that sound of encouragement needs the important caveats of (1) it's not trivial to change the situation, there are risks and costs and prices that may be paid, (2) it doesn't absolve another person of their own responsibilities of behavior & causing harm/pain.

[Lara Black]

I went through a divorce 6-7 years ago. And because I was brought up within this “one guy for life” philosophy, I stayed in that marriage for about 4 years longer than I should have (out of 12 all in all).

 

First of all, for myself I can say that it wasn’t nearly as stressful as is implied by that list. Don’t get me wrong – it wasn’t in any way easy, and I cried for weeks, but I healed.

And now I’m really happy I did it. I’m so much happier than I was and than I could be if I’d stayed.

 

So when I suggest breaking up on AVEN, it’s not given as an easy solution – I suggest it as a necessary evil when I don’t see any possibilities for two people to be happy.

I’m not sure if we have this proverb in English, but in my native language we sometimes say, “It’s better to cut off a cat’s tail in one piece than to be cutting it off bit by bit”. Naturally, neither of these options is painless or even good. But sometimes we find ourselves in a situation with no good choices.

[ryn2]

This includes the actual scale that places death of close family members lower (sorry, can’t just post the image, it’s a little way down).  I don’t know what the gory details behind the stress points are, though.

 

https://www.simplypsychology.org/SRRS.html

 

At any rate, wasn’t trying to start a stress olympics.  Agreed that different individuals will experience different relative stress from the various events listed.

[Traveler40]

I agree with you @ryn2. It seems when folks automatically say divorce, they do so having used some arbitrary inner scale that says the cons outweigh the pros. Everyone comes from different perspectives which would affect that scale. Your message of awareness is good, but perhaps futile 🙄.

 

If divorce was such a snap, folks like myself wouldn’t go against grain and move mountains to “keep it all together.” What’s notable is that the more life experience that’s had, the more thoughtful folks become in moving the scale. It’s usually not simple.

 

For all else, grain of salt and move on.

 

Note: Of course, sometimes divorce is clearly the better option. The above is to Ryn’s point for when that option is not so obvious.

[Ours]

I do think Justin break up/get divorced is tossed around quite carelessly. Regardless of hope painful breaking up is or is not it is a complete life change. And to assume that their won’t be a grieving process is a little naive.

 

thats not say you won’t eventually heal from it but it’s going happen at the courthouse. It will be a process. 
 

Anyone who has been in a long term relationship has at some point ask themselves about breaking up. So for the most part ‘have you thought about splitting up?’ Is kind of silly because the answer is always yes. 

 

religion isn’t the only reason people stay together. Love is complex and love hurts when it ends. Love is also deeply deeply personal so ‘I’m together because I love them’ is an answer but not a solution for the most part people are asking for solutions to be able to continue on with their beloved.
 

I love my partner, I love myself, I would love to have a robust sex life. I don’t want to feel rejected I don’t want to rape my partner. We are looking for help. 

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

43 minutes ago, Ours said:

 

 

 

 

I love my partner, I love myself, I would love to have a robust sex life. I don’t want to feel rejected I don’t want to rape my partner. We are looking for help. 

 

 

Issue is sometimes, you can't help because love is simply not enough to hold two completely incompatible people together. If I wanted kids and my wife didn't, love wouldn't overcome that. If I need sex and my wife needed no sex, love wouldn't overcome that. So. Sometimes the only help is the reality that leaving is the only viable option to meet your needs and one day you'll be OK and move on and meet someone else you love. 

 

A lot of communication and working together can sometimes help, for some couples. The reality is though, most couples who are mixed wont make it. The few that do, usually end up opening up / poly arranging it. A very, very small minority make it work with monogamy. 

 

Personally, I feel like the open/poly thing gets thrown around too casually. It often comes across like "well the ace doesn't want sex anyway, so if they care about their partner they will accept poly / open, or else they are selfish"... but *shrug* 

 

I think people push what they themselves would do in a given circumstance. Whatever that may be. 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Serran said:

Personally, I feel like the open/poly thing gets thrown around too casually. It often comes across like "well the ace doesn't want sex anyway, so if they care about their partner they will accept poly / open, or else they are selfish"... but *shrug* 

Agreed. I've been in the poly community for a while and I see way too many couples looking to open their relationship in an attempt to save their marriage, it normally results in a short honeymoon period of delight at this new freedom and new relationships followed by the speedy implosion of the marriage, especially when one partner is only doing in because they feel like they have to to keep their partner happy. Poly relationships are awesome if you are poly but the fact is that for whatever reason (cultural or otherwise) most people [in western society] are simply monogamous by nature, and can't be happy in a poly relationship, however desperately they try. Suggesting it casually as an easy option to save a mixed relationship is not a good idea.

[ryn2]

I think it ultimately comes down to:  depending not only on you as an individual, but also on where you are in your life at any given point, what you can/can’t (and will/won’t) tolerate in order to get other needs met varies.  We just need to keep in mind that what sounds like by far the lesser evil to us (individually) may be someone else’s worst nightmare.  What might be fairly simple for us might take someone else decades to work up the courage to try, or decades to get over.

[Traveler40]

10 hours ago, Serran said:

I think people push what they themselves would do in a given circumstance. Whatever that may be. 

I disagree and think it’s simply easier to be cavalier with someone else’s problems. I can always solve yours...
 

It’s partly why folks seek third party counsel. However, another’s detached input and opinion (thoughtful or not), minus the personal angst, doesn’t equate to a linear outcome for obvious reasons.

 

🤔 Maybe that should have read “....what they would hope they would do should that set of problems be theirs.”

 

Separately, we are having all of our closets redone at the moment and I have literally sent my husband to each room before putting stuff back in order to purge. I appreciate the result, but fight the process as every damn thing has a memory for me. He couldn’t care less and just tosses it all. Tangential, but same idea. No emotion, easier process. 

[Memento1]

It's a difficult topic because unfortunately, the two best options for most widely mismatched partners are separating or opening up.  And I totally agree neither is easy or good or "just" anything (a word which is almost entirely useless and invalidating).  I do really wish people would recognize that and be more careful with their wording.  That said, they are often the best options, painful as they are. They're options no one wants to consider and I think most of those couples would end up happier choosing to separate when there's still love there rather than waiting until they hate each other's guts.  It comes from a place of compassion, from wanting to help people out of misery without tearing each other apart, but I think we can all agree sensitive wording is ideal.

 

A harder truth I see is that AVEN is not therapy. No duh, I know.  But confronting people with difficult truths takes trust and empathy and respect - in other words, a good relationship.  Asking unpaid internet strangers for advice on a terribly complex and deeply personal topic is a recipe for disaster.  An asynchronous written forum is not a good avenue for building a deep and trusting relationship, even if people wanted to.  It's why most support groups are in person.  Plus most people here are struggling with their own sh*t, when they're even less capable of being completely present for someone else's feelings (and I include myself in that).  Most people ask for advice, but want therapy or a good friend, and this place is sadly neither.  Not that I'm making excuses for poor phrasing or lack of empathy.

[Traveler40]

11 hours ago, Memento1 said:

Most people....want therapy or a good friend, and this place is sadly neither.

I disagree. As in “real life”, friendships take time and a bit of effort. While I haven’t made friends per se equivalent to those locally, there are a handful I’ve gotten to know a bit more than casual words exchanged. I’d both ask for and give advice as there’s some trust built up. Also, I believe there’s honesty and mutual respect. 
 

In fact, there are a number of folks that I’ve gone “off AVEN” with. Recently, I even swapped pics with one I felt secure enough with. There’s zero agenda and nothing but frank communication. Anyhow, I genuinely like them and their thoughts. 
 

So, for the transient set you’re likely correct, but for the longer timers it’s not that simple. Hell, some have even found love around here.

[Memento1]

I'm sorry it came off as simple.  Of course I was not saying friendships cannot form here - some of my closest friends I met online.  It did not sound like that was the situation being discussed - friends being unempathetic with friends.  If that was the case, certainly my bad.

[Traveler40]

3 hours ago, Memento1 said:

An asynchronous written forum is not a good avenue for building a deep and trusting relationship, even if people wanted to

So, that bit seemed pretty clear. Anyhow ✌️

[Philip027]

It happens because many cultures portray divorce as a shameful or even sinful thing when often times it is nevertheless the best solution for a failing relationship dynamic.  Sure, divorce still isn't great and nobody will say it's easy, but staying together in a bad relationship isn't better, especially when there are children involved -- which is why it's especially bad when people feel like they have to stay together "for the sake of the children"; people don't tend to realize that their kids can tell their relationship sucks, and it DOES negatively affect the kid.

 

I shudder to think how my life post-childhood would have turned out had my parents not divorced.

[Traveler40]

Right, yet many times on AVEN folks express that their relationships have everything but the sexual connection. They aren’t looking for a way to get out, but for a way to stay in. That missing sexual element is so vital to many sexuals that it’s not weighing whether or not to leave a bad relationship....

 

The nut to swallow is despite everything else seemingly great, it’s a mismatch that can’t be ignored. We aren’t splitting hairs over the relationships that obviously need to end.

 

Somehow, I think I’ve missed a thread being referenced that went off the rails with the “get a divorce” advice. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[ryn2]

6 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Somehow, I think I’ve missed a thread being referenced that went off the rails with the “get a divorce” advice.

I’m the OP and I did too?  I’d just seen it offered up as an easy solution - without recognizing that it’s a major life change - one too many times for my personal tolerance level that day.

[Ours]

12 hours ago, Memento1 said:

 

It's a difficult topic because unfortunately, the two best options for most widely mismatched partners are separating or opening up.  And I totally agree neither is easy or good or "just" anything (a word which is almost entirely useless and invalidating).  I do really wish people would recognize that and be more careful with their wording.  That said, they are often the best options, painful as they are. They're options no one wants to consider and I think most of those couples would end up happier choosing to separate when there's still love there rather than waiting until they hate each other's guts.  It comes from a place of compassion, from wanting to help people out of misery without tearing each other apart, but I think we can all agree sensitive wording is ideal.

 

A harder truth I see is that AVEN is not therapy. No duh, I know.  But confronting people with difficult truths takes trust and empathy and respect - in other words, a good relationship.  Asking unpaid internet strangers for advice on a terribly complex and deeply personal topic is a recipe for disaster.  An asynchronous written forum is not a good avenue for building a deep and trusting relationship, even if people wanted to.  It's why most support groups are in person.  Plus most people here are struggling with their own sh*t, when they're even less capable of being completely present for someone else's feelings (and I include myself in that).  Most people ask for advice, but want therapy or a good friend, and this place is sadly neither.  Not that I'm making excuses for poor phrasing or lack of empathy.

 

“Just” for me is definitely a trigger. I’m so grateful that it came back to that. Nothing about my relationship is “just”. Just like any 20 year relationship. 
 

as far a therapy yeah I get that. We have one. But the standard 3 option are repeated often enough (break up, open up, stay the same) They almost don’t need to be said again here.

 

im mostly disappointed that so few individuals who Identify as ace come to this page and offer ideas or support to keep in the relationship. 

 

 

[Memento1]

42 minutes ago, Ours said:

But the standard 3 option are repeated often enough (break up, open up, stay the same) They almost don’t need to be said again here.

I've never seen a recommendation here to stay the same and do nothing - can you clarify? The other two are repeated because people seem to think if the given options are denied we'll reveal a secret miracle cure - something that can be done to make the asexual desire sex or not be repulsed by it.  I often suggest people should work on their communication, which is how real individualized plans to stay together and problem-solve together are generated, but it's usually ignored.  Maybe you're saying it's still worth it, that even though no one responds, it's being heard and appreciated.  That would be good to know, because without feedback I've been seriously considering stopping.

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, Ours said:

im mostly disappointed that so few individuals who Identify as ace come to this page and offer ideas or support to keep in the relationship. 

You will probably see more of that (in amongst other things) in Asexual Relationships...