Married to an asexual wife with vaginismus/vulvodynia

[Athos]

Hi everybody! I wanted to share the story of my very weird situation in full here. I often feel like the only person in this exact sort of situation, because when I go online to read others' stories, I never find them applicable to my situation because they're missing one crucial aspect or the other. So, I just wanted to share my story here with this group that is wiser to these types of things and to vent a little bit. I'll try to be as brief as possible, but it will still be long because there are several main threads that tie together, without which you can't get a full picture of the situation. But, I'll post a TL;DR at the bottom just in case.

 

My wife (29 F) and I (32 M) have been together for 10 years and married for 5. Before meeting my wife, I had been in a couple of terrible relationships that really messed me up emotionally. But my wife was very different, and our relationship helped me recover my stability and confidence. From an outsider's perspective, we looked like a perfect match.

 

However, a major problem--probably the biggest problem--in our relationship has been sexual intimacy. Two years ago (8 years into our relationship, 3 years after getting married), she told me that she thought she was asexual. I am decidedly sexual. That in itself is a pretty big deal, but I've found many stories of couples where the asexual partner didn't have a word for the way they felt until much later, and they've made it work in some way by finding a compromise with sex that they're both comfortable with if it means keeping all the other great things in their marriage.

 

However, what further complicates this it that my wife also has a medical condition preventing her from having vaginal intercourse: this was first diagnosed years ago as vaginismus (involuntary muscle spasms of the vagina) but was more recently diagnosed as vulvodynia (pain and tenderness in the vulva with no identifiable cause). While she didn't get her first formal diagnosis until after we'd been together for a year, she did know beforehand that she had problems with vaginal insertion (she had tried to use tampons before but never been successful due to pain). We had been sexually active during the first year but never attempted PIV sex until we'd been together for a year, and we aborted that attempt because she was already crawling up the wall away from me before I even got close. That's when we knew we had a big problem! Being unable to have PIV sex really upset her because she felt "broken," like a "failed woman" and other awful things about herself. I tried to be as supportive as I could because I could only imagine what it must be like to feel that way. I assured her that we would work on this together. Because I felt like I'd finally found my perfect match, I tried to be patient and considerate as she worked through treatment of her condition.

 

I struggled for a long time whether to ask her to marry me but ultimately decided to take the risk, even though she hadn't made any progress in treatment by that point, because I was optimistic that we could overcome this obstacle in our life together and hopeful that, with just a few months of work on her part, we'd start to see results. However, pursuing treatment was very difficult for her. Treatment for these conditions largely relies on the patient using a dilator kit to desensitize the genital area and reduce the pain-reflex cycle, and to stretch and learn how to relax and control the muscles; I bought her this kit and an accompanying workbook about vaginismus from online not long after she got her first diagnosis. It's difficult to find doctors who are even aware of these conditions. She saw a physical therapist early on but didn't find it helpful, and our health insurance was limited. She complained from the beginning that the dilators hurt a lot, and she didn't feel like doing the treatment because she was too stressed out and never had time, first from being in college, then because of moving, then because her job was too stressful, then because of her next job, and so on…

 

At first, I was pretty understanding of these reasons for not diligently pursuing her treatment. She has always had a very hard time dealing with stress, and we had a lot to adjust to as she was transitioning out of college and into life as a working professional. But as the years went on and one excuse replaced another, I became increasingly hopeless that things would ever be "just right" to get her to actually do her treatment, look for other doctors, research online about her condition--anything. Whenever I prompted her about her treatment--no matter how gentle I tried to be about it--I was met with excuses, anger, or sadness, but no action. I adopted the approach of giving her space to work things out on her own time without putting too much pressure on her, since it seemed like the pressure would make it harder for her to pursue treatment. It didn't seem that any approach I took--hard or soft--made a difference. We did have sexual intimacy during this time, and I'd hoped that the things that we could do would be satisfactory until we could get to a point where penetration could become a reality.

 

Unfortunately, we struggled with sex even within the boundaries of what was possible. The sexual intimacy that we've had, especially earlier on, has often been very good, because we share certain kinks that make us well aligned. I've always been the one initiating sex. Over time, my attempts at initiation became so frequently met with "no" or a disinterested "maybe" that I started to become averse to even trying. She had never been fond of being touched, and it really began to frustrate me how she would freeze up or pull away when I tried to touch or kiss her. Even when we were having sex, I would often get frustrated: her passivity, the way she would flinch or recoil or yelp while being touched--all these things made me feel like her body was rejecting me. I did try to talk to her about these things, but her response was usually just to say that that's just how she is, and they didn't improve substantially as she became more experienced. When I complained that I wanted more frequent sexual intimacy because it's fun and an important part of bonding for me, she said that she just prefers "quality over quantity." But her "quantity" could be weeks or months at a time before she would even suggest it.

 

I wish I could say "Everything was great but the sex!" but that wouldn't be true. We have had a lot of conflicts that have made it hard for me to continue being patient and hoping for things to change. I mentioned her very low stress tolerance, and I've also been uncomfortable throughout our life together because of her explosive temper. Our communication has been really poor: we are both conflict-averse and also have had a tendency to get very defensive, so I learned early on that trying to talk to her about these big relationship issues was a non-starter. But what's held me back from forcing these confrontations or just leaving is that, when everything is fine, we get along great. We share very important values and morals, we share some hobbies and interests that aren't so common, and we have a lot of inside jokes and humor that we share. The good times are good enough that it's easy to forget about the bad times, as frequent and hurtful as they've been, until this toxic negativity rises again due to something triggering it. Maybe if we were having hot sex all the time, it wouldn't bother me so much. Actually, I'm almost positive that would be true.

 

When she told me 8 years into our relationship that she thought she was asexual, I didn't think much of it and didn't understand asexuality as a sexual orientation: I knew she masturbates, we did have sex (in the limited ways available), and she enjoys it after we get started, so how could she be asexual? By the end of the year, I realized I wasn't getting any younger, and her excuses had run as thin as my patience, so I pushed her again to pursue treatment for real. She begrudgingly agreed and got into physical therapy with someone specializing in pelvic floor muscles and into counseling with a sex therapist, which are the best forms of treatment for women with her condition. I joined the sex therapy sessions not long after she started so that we could talk about our intimate life and expectations together.

 

Thanks to the sex therapy and resources I've discovered online about asexuality, many things have clicked into place for my understanding. One of the biggest shocks I received was when she said in our first session together that she thought everything in our marriage was "basically perfect." While I thought our marriage definitely had the potential to be wonderful, I would never have described it as anything close to "perfect," but I understand now how she could have seen it that way because she was asexual and didn't have the same relationship needs as me or see things like I did. She has always disliked kissing because she thinks it's gross, especially kissing with tongue: unless we were in the throes of passion, her kisses were brief, with closed lips. Beyond her general dislike of being touched, she had developed an aversion to flirtatious touching and kissing beyond quick pecks because she associated that type of touching with an expectation that it would lead to sex, hence why she would freeze or push me away when I touched her or kissed her for more than a peck. Thinking about sex and the expectation of having it made her very anxious, so she could only have sexual intimacy if she had a day to get mentally prepared (alcohol also helped). She had an aversion to sex in general because she thought it was "gross" (the bodily fluids, the noises, thinking the sensations just generally feel weird, etc.). Many years earlier, we had talked about her "low libido," which we thought was just stress-induced, but she revealed that she just never has a desire for or interest in sex. We thought her aversion toward sexual intimacy was due to unhealthy attitudes about sex growing up (her dad cheating on her mom repeatedly, her mom calling sexual women "sluts" and saying that men only want sex, etc.), and maybe that had something to do with it, but her general attitude toward sex was, if not revulsion, then apathy. She described sex with words like "a chore," "marital duties," "lie back and think of England." She saw me wanting sex with her in the same way she saw her wanting me to go grocery shopping with her. She always said that she never really gets "horny" except when she is on her period. She has recently told me that she doesn't feel sexual attraction to people: she thinks certain people are attractive and aesthetically pleasing, but she doesn't think about sex with people. She never had sex with, kissed, or dated anyone before she met me. From what I've been reading, all of these are common characteristics of asexuality.

 

Unfortunately, on the physical therapy side of things, she once again had a lot of convenient excuses to keep cancelling her appointments and eventually fell off the patient list and had to be readmitted. This wouldn't have been the end of the world, but she also didn't keep up with her at-home treatment, which basically put us back to square one.

 

Earlier this month, I told my wife that I thought we should end our marriage. She was heartbroken and desperate to save our marriage, and she has promised to do whatever it takes. I was bewildered, because where was this enthusiasm and motivation the entire rest of the time? She admitted that she had "gotten comfortable" over the years, which really hurt for me to hear: she had been getting everything she wanted while I bit my tongue and slowly withdrew from her and lost hope in our marriage. Since that talk, she has been using her dilation kit every day, she has physical therapy appointments scheduled every week for the next few months, we started seeing a marriage counselor, and she is going to have her first meeting with an individual counselor to address her anxiety and anger issues (I have already been in individual counseling). But I really worry, because when I remind her of all the things she's said about sex in the past, she seems to be now backpedaling on certain things: saying "I don't know whether I'm asexual or just low-libido," saying that she doesn't really find sex repulsive, things like that. She says she can have sexual intimacy more often because I enjoy it, but I don't know if that will be sustainable for her since she finds sex so draining, and I don't know if I will really be happy having sex with someone who doesn't desire it like I do.

 

So, that's where I am right now. Watching my 30s fade away like my 20s and wishing that I had done a lot of things differently. I keep reminding myself that each decision I made seemed reasonable at the time, and it's only with the luxury of hindsight that you can look back and see each decision as part of a larger arc toward failure. It's just hard to break away once you've invested so much into something. I am still wondering to myself in every spare moment how I should approach this and whether I can commit any more of my life to waiting for things to change. An open relationship is out of the question (she has vehemently shot down even the mention of it, and I don't know if it would be fulfilling for me anyway), so the only options are divorce or finding some compromise around sex. The one thing I know is that I can't continue going without the full gamut of sexual experiences that I used to enjoy, but that depends on her diligently pursuing treatment AND the treatment working. And, long-term, will we both be satisfied with whatever compromises we try? We've compromised on other major things that always seem to backslide in her favor to my disappointment. And can I commit the additional amount of time we would need to determine whether this will work out?

 

My mind keeps turning in circles because this situation is so complicated. Everyone we know loves us being together, but it's been a struggle for me for years dealing with these issues that I can't share with anyone. She and I make such good friends, she's so cute, I'm extremely sexually attracted to her, and we've had so many memories together, and that's all made it even harder on me because of the major absence that's important to me in the relationship.

 

TL;DR: My wife, who I've been with for 10 years, has a treatable medical condition preventing us from having vaginal sex but hasn't consistently worked on treating until this year. She also told me after 8 years that she thinks she's asexual, and I eventually realized that all the signs seem to point that direction. She won't do an open marriage, and I've been growing detached over the years due to lack of the kind of sexual intimacy I desire. We've had some major personality and lifestyle conflicts over the years, but we otherwise get along really well. I suggested divorce, but we are trying to make it work despite my major reservations, and she's now saying that she doesn't know if she's asexual.

[Guest]

I'm sorry you're in a tough spot. Mixed relationships can be difficult and are often not sustainable. So, don't feel bad if it does end up not working out. 

 

One thing though... why the push to do PiV sex? If it literally causes her extreme pain, why push that specific activity? Why not focus on other sexual activities that can be enjoyable to you both? I am not ace, I really enjoy my sex life with my wife (trans, so PiV is possible). But, we both dislike it and it causes me physical pain about 80% of the time (for some reason, almost always causes the penis to bump against my cervix, which causes a sharp pain up into my abdomen and is extremely unpleasant). And neither of us likes fluids much. So, we go with other sexual activities we can both enjoy. 

 

If someone pushed me for PiV sex, to the point of having to do painful treatments all the time to have it when I didn't even like it... I wouldn't want sex either. At all. Ever. Any type. And I say this as a woman that has dressed up in lingerie and teased my wife all day just to drive her nuts so we could both have good sex together later that day, has drawers full of sex toys and plays around asking my wife to "hookup" with me multiple times a week. 

[AlphaGodith]

i know some people can make it work, but as someone with a lot of similarities to your wife, and who is also married, if my husband suddenly told me the no-sex thing wasn't working anymore and it was vaginal penetration or divorce, i would go with divorce. my husband and i both do things we aren't thrilled about for eachother, but doing something we find downright painful and stressful, on a regular basis? and being expected to act like we like it? i don't think that would be worth it at all. at that point it's better just to be friends and find a more compatible romantic partner that you don't have to suffer so much for. i mean, i just couldn't love someone who would make me suffer that much for his own pleasure.

[Grimalkin]

16 minutes ago, Athos said:

The one thing I know is that I can't continue going without the full gamut of sexual experiences that I used to enjoy, but that depends on her diligently pursuing treatment AND the treatment working.

And her making sacrifices for you constantly, yes. Asexual people having sex for the sake of their partner can already be taxing enough, but battling vaginismus on top of it sounds grueling. Right now your wife is in panic mode, because she loves you and hates the thought of losing you, but I can't see much marital harmony coming out of this. Like @Serran said, maybe doing everything but PiV would work better. PiV sex is probably always going to be uncomfortable for her at best, and incredibly painful at worst. 

 

But hey, maybe doing everything but won't work for you. And if that's the case, your marriage is probably over, like you suspected. 

 

 

[anisotrophic]

@Athos you’ve mentioned several issues beyond sexual intimacy that are important to think about: major personality and lifestyle conflicts, poor communication, discordant happiness where you are unhappy while she thinks things are great, trying to be patient and wait for things to change, feeling like you’ve got sunk costs.

 

On top of all that passivity and lack of change or caring about how it affected you, “open” is absolutely disallowed.

 

All in all, it must feel like your own happiness as a person has been treated as unimportant.

 

Certainly PiV shouldn’t be necessary; what sounds *upsetting* is the broader question: does your happiness matter? Is your partner doing the minimum needed to keep what’s comfortable for them — rather than genuinely value your happiness and flourishing as a person? (The latter is what we should all want for each other, but the Golden Rule doesn’t always work.)

 

It’ll be hard for you to know if a real change will stick. I think there’s cause for pessimism. I don’t think you should “blame” your partner, but recognize you got yourself here — you enable your own painful situation, you don’t need to be angry or blaming to own your role & step away from it.

 

I do think you need to value your happiness, in a calm and kind way. That doesn’t mean you need one thing or another — piv per se may be besides the point, just a vignette for various places where you hoped things would change & your partner didn’t seem to care. You’ll have to figure out what your needs are, and commit to them mattering.

[Athos]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

 

1 hour ago, Serran said:

One thing though... why the push to do PiV sex? If it literally causes her extreme pain, why push that specific activity? Why not focus on other sexual activities that can be enjoyable to you both?

I want to emphasize that we have never had PiV sex because it's impossible, or at least practically impossible because her pain-aversion reflex is so strong that she wouldn't even be able to force herself to be penetrated if she wanted to (and neither would I want to, knowing the severity of the pain it causes). We have been doing exactly what you suggest for many years, and a lot of times we have sex (not PiV) and it's great! Simultaneously, the idea was that we could enjoy the things we could do while she explored the medical side of things that prevented us from going further. Besides preventing us from having PiV, it also prevents her from using tampons (and she hates using pads) or getting basic gynecological exams, so it's something you'd want to treat even if you had no interest in sex with a partner. What has really gotten to me over the years is that she always says she'll do it, "but" only if X is different. And then X changes, and then all of a sudden it's Y, and then Z, so no matter how much our life circumstances changed, it didn't change her willingness to pursue treatment. 

 

1 hour ago, AlphaGodith said:

at that point it's better just to be friends and find a more compatible romantic partner that you don't have to suffer so much for. i mean, i just couldn't love someone who would make me suffer that much for his own pleasure.

For the first sentence, that's the feeling that I had when I suggested divorce: I explained that I thought we've both done a lot of good for each other but have also hurt each other by our different expectations as a married couple and that we'd work better as friends. At first, I believed that she wanted to do the treatment because she wanted to have sex with me. Over time, I started to feel like she kept making excuses not to seek treatment because she didn't want sex enough to motivate her to do the work. So, I thought if that's the case, let's release each other from these conflicting expectations so we don't have to worry about it. But, she seems intent that she is willing to "do whatever it takes" to still be with me. 

 

For your second sentence, I know you don't know me, but that's a very uncharitable interpretation. See above where I explain that we haven't tried penetrative sex yet (after the first time where we realized it wouldn't be possible) because of the pain, and we've been doing other things instead. Besides which, lots of medical treatments are painful but necessary for improved health, including most forms of physical therapy (which is what her treatment is). If she had just said "I'm not ever going to do this because it hurts too much," then that would have been disappointing, but better because then we could have made decisions based on that information a long time ago. Instead, it was, "I'll do it, but I can't because of X," which led me to believe that she did want to do it but just had some roadblocks in her way.

 

I know it's hard to convey 10 years of interpersonal relationship into a summarized forum post, but take my word for the purposes of this discussion that, when I made the decision to stay with her after learning that she has vaginismus, that I went into it with the belief that she wanted to have PiV some day, and her initial reasons for not pursuing or continuing treatment seemed reasonable at the time. It was only much later with the luxury of hindsight that I started to realize that things might never change, and by that point it was harder and harder to leave each year. This has been a long time in development.

16 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I do think you need to value your happiness, in a calm and kind way. That doesn’t mean you need one thing or another — piv per se may be besides the point, just a vignette for various places where you hoped things would change & your partner didn’t seem to care. You’ll have to figure out what your needs are, and commit to them mattering.

Thank you, @anisotrophic, I feel like you summarized my feelings in a great way. Yes, it's hard to say whether I'd be happy if we could have PiV but nothing else was different, or if I'd be happy if we'd been able to get along and communicate much better over the years even if we couldn't have PiV--the hard part is that things are so different at this point than what I had hoped for going into the relationship and not knowing how to deal with that fact now that I'm here years later. We both contributed to the problems in the relationship, and I've been grappling recently with my own culpability: What if I had forced us to confront these and other issues and not backed down for fear of hurting her feelings when I encountered resistance? What if I had brought up my unhappiness sooner and more directly instead of suppressing my feelings because I was afraid of losing her? Maybe it wouldn't have changed anything, but it's hard not to regret the way I've done things in the past.

 

 

 

 

I guess one question I have for the group is what to do now that my wife is saying that she doesn't know whether she's asexual or "just low libido," as she puts it. I got the impression that she had gotten pretty set on asexuality being part of how she identifies herself since she first brought it up to me, and now it seems like she's backpedaling because she thinks that not being seen as asexual will help us stay together. She's talked about "learning to like sex more" and has seen her gynecologist to ask about any treatments that will increase libido. This worries me, because while I appreciate the lengths she's willing to go to save our relationship, I'm afraid that she's offering to make all of these sacrifices against her nature and her desires so that she can accommodate my desires. That's not what I want either. When I suggested divorce to her, the way I explained it was that we've both done a lot of good for each other but have also hurt each other by our different expectations. How can I talk about sex with her to help her discern for herself whether she's asexual or a sexual person with a low libido?

 

I actually discussed this with her recently, and I told her I was afraid of her lying about how she feels about sex so that I'd be less likely to leave. She admitted that she understood why I would have that concern. 

[SithLord]

Your situation sounds similar to mine with my fiance. Only I knew I was ace from the beginning and we have both been open and honest about everything as a result.

 

I haven't been diagnosed, but I've explained my experience as vaginismus before, though not sure if I meet the definition you used. Basically I can't move my muscles down there as most people apparently can? Trying to put in a tampon during high school or college brought me to tears. Sticking just a finger up there used to be terrible, and even now I need to stretch before we do anything penetrative even though it's not as bad as it was.

 

Your wife's situation sounds much worse than my experience. But I do envy her enjoyment of the act. I get 0 pleasure from anything down there. It makes my fiance feel guilty when we start being intimate and I'm in pain, and he's always very careful and considerate with me. It's definitely not sexy the way we initiate sex since he has to ask in advance so I can prepare. 

 

I agree with you that I don't see a solution other than divorce or finding sexual compromise. You need to keep her doing her therapy or other methods and talk to her about if she keeps saying "no" too often for you to handle. This was a frequent problem with me and my partner and we've had very blunt, hard discussions about me not realizing how much I was putting him through. I can let a month go by and forget that we haven't had sex, but he would remember it and not be nearly as content and happy. 

[anisotrophic]

2 hours ago, Athos said:

 

I guess one question I have for the group is what to do now that my wife is saying that she doesn't know whether she's asexual or "just low libido," as she puts it. I got the impression that she had gotten pretty set on asexuality being part of how she identifies herself since she first brought it up to me, and now it seems like she's backpedaling because she thinks that not being seen as asexual will help us stay together.

I think it doesn’t matter much whether she’s the label or whatever. If she could’ve enjoyed it all along, and wasn’t motivated to communicate and work together with you over the years to have that, that’s hardly a happy answer.

 

Trying to explore this now, regardless of whether it “keeps” you, because she thinks it could make her a happier person, it’s something she wants to do for herself — that’s great? But I wouldn’t bother with it if it’s fueled by extrinsic motivation. People rarely change (or genuinely explore changing) unless they find some intrinsic reason for it.
 

So no, I don’t think the “sex” is what would need to change for you to stay together — seems like something more holistic about communication and how *both* partners’ happiness should matter (to themselves and each other).

 

2 hours ago, Athos said:

What if I had forced us to confront these and other issues and not backed down for fear of hurting her feelings when I encountered resistance? What if I had brought up my unhappiness sooner and more directly instead of suppressing my feelings because I was afraid of losing her?

It might not have worked. I expressed my unhappiness to the point of saying I felt suicidal — and got promises to do better (in this case, domestic labor imbalance) — but people sometimes get away with as much as they can, as long as they don’t believe you’ll actually do something they fear losing (leave or “leave” or whatever).

 

Not that I’m leaving. I just stopped literally sleeping with him at this point. In my case, I’d be happy with cohabiting and coparenting, and we’ll see if that (the emotional/physical intimacy) is something he fears losing. 🤷‍♂️ I need to see substantial change in my happiness mattering. He was agreeing to sex, but I think that was just me making *myself* feel like I mattered.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Athos said:

I want to emphasize that we have never had PiV sex because it's impossible, or at least practically impossible because her pain-aversion reflex is so strong that she wouldn't even be able to force herself to be penetrated if she wanted to (and neither would I want to, knowing the severity of the pain it causes).

 

But, you have both pushed the treatment to have PiV. Despite extreme pain. Largely for sexual purposes. That's bound to cause a lot of negativity around sex to have it associated so closely to an extremely painful thing. And driven probably not by desire to do something, but by guilt and feeling of being "broken" and unable to please her husband. The amount of negative emotions wound around sex... that'll drive even sexual women off sex. In fact, the pressure my partners put on me towards PiV and the pressure I then put on myself to do it, are main reasons I used to ID as asexual. Having to push myself to do something painful, stressful and not even pleasurable cause I "should", completely masked any and all ability I had to feel sexual arousal/desire and it wasn't until I had a relationship where I was free to just do whatever, with no pressure for more, that I realized I actually do like sex... just not PiV. 

 

2 hours ago, Athos said:

 

 

We have been doing exactly what you suggest for many years, and a lot of times we have sex (not PiV) and it's great! Simultaneously, the idea was that we could enjoy the things we could do while she explored the medical side of things that prevented us from going further. Besides preventing us from having PiV, it also prevents her from using tampons (and she hates using pads) or getting basic gynecological exams, so it's something you'd want to treat even if you had no interest in sex with a partner.

She'll probably hate pads, tampons, cups and everything else. Most women I know do! Periods suck and every period product sucks.  It's more a lesser of two evils. And that is unlikely to be a big driver for her to do incredibly painful medical procedures. The only benefit being the exams, but with those being suggested once every 3-5 years nowadays, being something no one looks forward to, it's probably not a big driver either. Basically, everything around the medical treatment seems to be a big old negative. And it's hard to motivate oneself to do something you "should", when everything about it is just stressful. "I can suffer in pain for years to have an exam every few years that is uncomfortable and painful at the best of times", or "I can suffer in pain for years to have uncomfortable dry cotton up my vagina", or "I can suffer in pain for years to have PiV that is likely to still be painful and not really a thing I want much"

 

2 hours ago, Athos said:

 

 

What has really gotten to me over the years is that she always says she'll do it, "but" only if X is different. And then X changes, and then all of a sudden it's Y, and then Z, so no matter how much our life circumstances changed, it didn't change her willingness to pursue treatment. 

 

Which... links to the above. It's easier to motivate yourself to do something awful to yourself for a benefit when you can go "YAY! NOW I HAVE THIS THING" ... but, she doesn't have that. So, she likely goes "I should do this.... so maybe if X Y Z aren't in the way I can" and tries. But, then the motivation wanes. You suffer through PT to walk, you get to walk and enjoy life again. You suffer through exercise to get in shape, you at least get feeling good / looking good / clothes fitting the way you want. She suffers through this, there is no gain for her, other than your happiness (MAYBE... if she still hates PiV then it would all be for naught anyway). And a small % chance they might one day detect cancer cells in a pap smear and it could save her. That's not the best motivation to do something incredibly painful every day for years to overcome such a painful condition.

 

2 hours ago, Athos said:

I guess one question I have for the group is what to do now that my wife is saying that she doesn't know whether she's asexual or "just low libido," as she puts it.

Honestly, the fact she only backtracked on it when you suggested divorce means she's probably grasping to keep you. A trans person will go "WAIT! I don't want to transition" when confronted with it from their spouse. An asexual can go "WAIT! I'm not really asexual... sex is fine..." 

 

However, these changes are temporary because they are who they are and that won't change. The panic that instills the "wait, no" response and repression goes away and the reality comes back eventually. 

 

2 hours ago, Athos said:

She's talked about "learning to like sex more" and has seen her gynecologist to ask about any treatments that will increase libido. This worries me, because while I appreciate the lengths she's willing to go to save our relationship, I'm afraid that she's offering to make all of these sacrifices against her nature and her desires so that she can accommodate my desires. That's not what I want either. When I suggested divorce to her, the way I explained it was that we've both done a lot of good for each other but have also hurt each other by our different expectations. How can I talk about sex with her to help her discern for herself whether she's asexual or a sexual person with a low libido?

She likely still feels "broken" and "unworthy" for not being sexual, so wants to try to basically do corrective therapy on herself. And, if she is asexual, just like with LGBT conversion therapy, it doesn't work. You can't force yourself to want sex if you don't. You can learn to like it more, by learning things you like, but you can't learn to desire it. 

 

I would ask her to introspect if she ever has desired sex as a method of doing anything other than pleasing you. For herself, for her own gain. Whether that be manual stimulation, oral, whatever you guys do. If the answer is no, then either she doesn't desire you. Or she doesn't desire sex at all. Either way, it is unlikely to change. 

 

 

I ID'd as asexual for 5 years, from 25-30. Because I was with partners who expected a traditional sexual relationship and that is what I tried to offer. It sucked, majorly. I didn't enjoy it at all. And then they got annoyed cause I didn't enjoy it like they did. And everyone just ended up frustrated. I honestly don't think I could have developed my sexual desire in a relationship that had that expectation / pressure. I probably would have continued to ID as asexual. But, I met someone who put no pressure one me. Who never asked me to do anything I didn't want to do. Who was OK with sex not being available, but was OK if it was as well. And that just... freedom, that is what sparked my desires for my wife. 

 

So. I mean yeah your wife could be asexual. She could be low libido. She could be sexual and just need a relationship that is pressure free. Who knows. She likely won't even know. 

 

My suggestion would be if you want to work on the relationship:

 

1) Take the PiV thing off the table. If she wants to treat the medical condition for other reasons, let her. But it's her decision and I don't think the pressure to be able to do PiV is going to help you or her. If she treats it for the other reasons and it allows PIV one day, great. But, it doesn't seem like something she's willing to do long-term. She will likely stop working at it before long, after the panic wears off from the divorce suggestion. 

 

2) Decide what you want from the relationship. Do you need PiV? Do you need her to treat the medical condition? Or do you just need her to go to counseling with you and try to fix the communication issues and other issues you guys have? Maybe if you two worked on communication and found what you both mutually enjoy, you could focus on those and increase the bond from sex that you can have? 

 

It kinda feels like you've clamped onto the medical condition and PiV as the cure. If she did this, you'd feel loved. But... I think the problems probably run a lot deeper than that. It sounds like you have a lot of communication and some trust issues between you. Probably some resentment on both sides built up over the years. All the other issues won't be cured by sex. And maybe, if they are repaired, you may find some compromise that makes the sex work for both of you. 

 

But, do you really want to spend years more working on trying and maybe not even having a solution be possible (if  you're just too incompatible)? 

[anisotrophic]

14 hours ago, Serran said:

It kinda feels like you've clamped onto the medical condition and PiV as the cure. If she did this, you'd feel loved.

I think my point is: he might not. This might be her wishful thinking. He seems concerned about this fixation. The "unloved" may already have happened: it's water under the bridge, with the history of misleading communication about intention.

 

As it was described, this particular aspect comes entangled with a history of frustration over miscommunication/misleading expectations, per:

 

17 hours ago, Athos said:

If she had just said "I'm not ever going to do this because it hurts too much," then that would have been disappointing, but better because then we could have made decisions based on that information a long time ago. Instead, it was, "I'll do it, but I can't because of X," which led me to believe that she did want to do it but just had some roadblocks in her way.

And @Athos focuses on it not because he thinks it is a solution, but because he's concerned she's trying to "solve" things the wrong way? (NB he's come to an asexual forum, presumably because he wants to hear from people that might resemble his partner's perspective.)

 

17 hours ago, Athos said:

This worries me, because while I appreciate the lengths she's willing to go to save our relationship, I'm afraid that she's offering to make all of these sacrifices against her nature and her desires so that she can accommodate my desires. That's not what I want either.

So yes, I don't think the problems in the relationship should be reduced to "needing PiV", and trying to solve that is unlikely to make everyone happy.

And it was @Athos that suggested separating, so… my reading is that I don't think he's trying to cling to some simple solution as the "cure", but is concerned that his partner has fixated on it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

And it was @Athos that suggested separating, so… my reading is that I don't think he's trying to cling to some simple solution as the "cure", but is concerned that his partner has fixated on it.

The OP time and again in his opening post has pointed out all through the relationship, the fixation and expectation is the treatment will be done and will work. That the expectation he has set on her is that her treatment will work and penetrative sex will be a thing between them. Even implies that if that was not a possibility, they may not have married in the first place. It is absolutely no surprise that the wife is fixating on the treatment now out of panic about the divorce, because they basically say they think they'd be happy if they had sex and that they could overlook the other issues (I think this is a pipe dream, personally... sex may be a big issue, but the other issues compound and I doubt sex alone would make this a happy marriage). And that they must have the full range of sexual experiences, including PiV. 

 

Which, fine, if you need PiV in your life... it's probably a good idea to end the marriage, I doubt it's ever going to be a thing that is going to be mutually enjoyed in this relationship. But, I think they are both fixating on this as some fix to the marriage and thus sticking it out now she's working on treatment. And it's just a mask for all the other issues, along with the glaring issue of even if penetration becomes possible one day, it's likely not going to be enjoyable, she will have to continue treatment forever (unlikely to upkeep) and it's not going to be "hot sex" with mutual passion and desire like the OP says he wants. 

 

So, if they want to actually work on the marriage, they both would have to end this fixation on PiV and find a way to enjoy that aspect together (if it's possible). Without the pressure towards eventual PiV being a goal. The wife is likely panicky and going "see, I can do it, I'll do it" and that's not going to work long-term. She quite obviously doesn't want it. She's unlikely to make herself want it. If she can enjoy other things sexually, which apparently she can, then it would be more beneficial to focus on those and how to both be satisfied overall with that. But, if it's PiV hot mutual desire sex or divorce... I think we can safely say divorce is the likely outcome and trying to hope for one last ditch savior attempt at that being a thing in this marriage is just wasting time because breaking up is hard. 

 

 

21 hours ago, Athos said:

I tried to be patient and considerate as she worked through treatment of her condition.

 

 

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I struggled for a long time whether to ask her to marry me but ultimately decided to take the risk, even though she hadn't made any progress in treatment by that point, because I was optimistic that we could overcome this obstacle in our life together and hopeful that, with just a few months of work on her part, we'd start to see results.

 

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At first, I was pretty understanding of these reasons for not diligently pursuing her treatment. She has always had a very hard time dealing with stress, and we had a lot to adjust to as she was transitioning out of college and into life as a working professional. But as the years went on and one excuse replaced another, I became increasingly hopeless that things would ever be "just right" to get her to actually do her treatment, look for other doctors, research online about her condition--anything.

 

 

 

 

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I'd hoped that the things that we could do would be satisfactory until we could get to a point where penetration could become a reality.

 

 

 

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Maybe if we were having hot sex all the time, it wouldn't bother me so much. Actually, I'm almost positive that would be true.

 

 

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By the end of the year, I realized I wasn't getting any younger, and her excuses had run as thin as my patience, so I pushed her again to pursue treatment for real. She begrudgingly agreed and got into physical therapy with someone specializing in pelvic floor muscles and into counseling with a sex therapist, which are the best forms of treatment for women with her condition. I joined the sex therapy sessions not long after she started so that we could talk about our intimate life and expectations together.

 

 

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The one thing I know is that I can't continue going without the full gamut of sexual experiences that I used to enjoy, but that depends on her diligently pursuing treatment AND the treatment working. 

 

 

If OP has said all this to his wife, as well as pushed her to treat her condition so they can have PiV as much as he states over the years, then it makes perfect sense when faced with divorce she would jump to "I'll do this now..." and try to save it. Unfortunately, it's about as useful as when an asexual tries to have sex to please a sexual partner when faced with divorce over no sex. It may keep things going for a few weeks or months, but it's not really going to be a fix. And the endless hope cycle over is no good for either side. 

[RDIAG]

@Athos Thank you for this thread. I've lived with this reality for decades, except that for most of the time we didn't have the concept of asexuality to help us understand our situation.  We just had vaginismus, and everything focused on vaginismus.  Our whole married life centered around worrying about the PC muscle.  And it was secret and shaming for both of us.  We wanted children and ended up adopting after finding out that vaginismus would even make infertility treatments impossible (and "infertility" sometimes felt like a euphemism).  Like you, I often felt like I was the only one with this mix of challenges.  Vaginismus treatment stories, forums, etc., seem to be filled with women who desire sex, who even experience arousal, but just are unable to have PIV.  Also like you, I felt like my wife's attempts at treatment were usually half-hearted or under duress, and I felt a mixture of anger and guilt.

 

As @anisotrophic said, your happiness matters.  As does your wife's.  You don't need to be ashamed for desiring PIV, as long as you treat your wife with respect and care.  You may not ever get to experience PIV with her, but the fact that you desire it is just truth; it's part of who you are.  And my guess is that it's a desire for connection, for shared intimacy, for bonding with this person that you love.  Yes there are all sorts of ways to have sex, and people who define sex as PIV annoy the hell out of me, but it's ok that it's your desire.

 

I won't sugar coat this -- it's been a hard road.  Finally last year I came to accept that my wife is most likely asexual, and that was incredibly freeing for me.  All these years we had both acted like there was something wrong with her -- even good sex therapists thought relaxation or better communication or dilators or whatever would help "fix" her.  *But you can't fix what's not broken.*  And I also accepted that I needed to have sex be part of my life; I phrased it as "coming out to myself as heterosexual."  Divorce was always on the table as an option, I suppose -- neither of us is morally opposed to it or anything like that -- but we have so much damn fun together and so much history, and so much love that it seemed like too great a price to pay.  But I was incredibly depressed, bordering on suicidal.  So once I accepted asexuality as a probable explanation, the option of opening the marriage suddenly felt possible, and she agreed to it quite easily.  (Disclaimer - opening up introduces all sorts of new challenges, but those are for another topic)

 

You're in a difficult position, and you're dealing with a very difficult form of grief.  Be gentle with yourself and with your wife.

 

 

 

 

[Calgacus]

I guess this is an old thread, but I had to comment to say you’re not alone. It’s heartbreaking reading much of my own story in yours and knowing how you suffer. I wish I could offer something positive, but 13 years in, I’m in pretty bad shape on all fronts and have conceded there’s no hope of this being temporary.

 

One thing I’d spell out for anyone is that ‘permitting penetration’ is not having meaningful intimacy. It might seem like that’s all men want, but guiltily fucking your wife as gently as possible while she responds like a trafficked hooker isn’t enough; it’s not purely a matter of penetration. A lot of women’s forums focus on desensitization etc. but look, even when that is alleviated; if you don’t want me then you don’t want me, and there’s no cream for that.

 

Asexuality is an apt term.

 

I have been recently offered an open relationship, I have never propositioned a woman outside a relationship and don’t have any confidence or know where to start, not to mention the pandemic. I can’t really see that being a long term fix either; who wants to be my bit on the side long term? I am exploring the idea but have low expectations beyond maybe a few encounters - if I’m very lucky.

 

For anyone else not too late; marriage doesn’t fix it, children doesn’t fix it, endometriosis surgery doesn’t fix it, dilation doesn’t fix it, counselling doesn’t fix it. She doesn’t want to fuck you, and that’s never going to stop being heartbreaking. For either of you.

[anisotrophic]

@Calgacus maybe you’d like to open a new thread? It’s nice to be able to have your own thread to invite feedback, empathy, thoughts, advice.

[iff]

This thread has not been active for a long time and is now being locked. If anyone would like to discuss this topic further, feel free to start a new thread about it.

 

Iff, 

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