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"Are Aces LGBTQIA+?" Masterpost


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5 hours ago, CBC said:

Yeah, the 'A' was always 'allies'. Like it or don't, and personally I've always found the inclusion of allies in the acronym to be strange (which is not at all to say I'm negating the value of allies whatsoever), but that was definitely its original meaning.

 

I consider asexuals to be LGBT if they're also homo-/bi-/panromantic or transgender. No, heteroromantic and aromantic aces are not heterosexual, but I think the idea that LGBT automatically includes everyone who isn't sexually attracted to people of the opposite biological sex is somewhat erroneous. That said, I care far less about the issue than I do about people coining new ridiculous words for the minutiae of who they want to bang and/or get romantic with, so I'm not going to throw a fit or argue the point with others who feel differently. And I absolutely do recognise that asexuals are a minority and are deserving of visibility and respect.

Yeah, I agree. I've never felt the need to be included, because for me the ace community is enough. However, for others it's not, which is why I don't think aces as a group can be fit neatly into or out of LGBT. I kind of imagine both as interlinked circles.

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Calligraphette_Coe
On 4/12/2019 at 5:47 AM, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Ask 10 different aces and you'll get 11 different answers.

Is that counting the shrugs? :)

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Anthracite_Impreza
1 minute ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Is that counting the shrugs? :)

Oh no, I forgot about them. Try 14 answers.

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Calligraphette_Coe
3 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Oh no, I forgot about them. Try 14 answers.

It's sort of like "Who is John Galt?"

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6 hours ago, Star Lion said:

The significance I’ve found of it is that it was there when being gay was dangerous. Many gay people would use the “A” to be able to support the community without outing themselves. I’d imagine that it was also used because of allies being at risk too to the point of marginalization (but just not as much). Probably like white people supporting the black cause during the rise of Martin Luther King Jr. The “A” for allies I don’t think is really that useful these days since LGBTQ+ is so popular that it’s trending

That really depends on where you live. Where I am, I still hide my not totally heteroness behind being an ally, because if I let it be known I was anything but heterosexual I would likely 1) Lose my job 2) Be ostracized by the community I live in ... and given I've sunk several years of college and tens of thousands on a degree to make a career, I am not willing to do that. People at my job are very openly against LGBT+ and consider it deviant behavior that you learn and choose. And the last person I know of that went open about their own LGBT+ nature was forced to write a public apology letter in the newspapers and got put out of their job. So, at work I am an ally volunteer and I have a husband, not a wife. 

 

Oh and to answer OP: I feel like it's up to the LGBT+ space in your area whether to include aces or not. It's important to remember that LGBT people experience a lot of shame and guilt over their sexuality sometimes and for example a repulsed aro ace sitting there who finds all talk of sex gross is likely to increase those feelings, not make them feel comfortable and safe in the LGBT space so they can overcome that feeling. That's part of why some LGBT spaces are off limits to aces. As a whole, Trevor Project, pride parades etc are open. But, sometimes, LGBT people have very serious emotional issues that aces just can't understand or share and thus they do need some of their own spaces because of their sexuality. 

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On 4/12/2019 at 9:53 PM, naakka said:

I don't know where you live, but I've noticed LGBT is understood very differently in my country than for example in the USA. Here LGBT+ is basically an acronym for "sexual orientation and gender identity minorities". Anyone who's not cishet is basically counted in. (as a side note, I've always wondered why it's that unpractical LGBT+ and not for example SOGIM - "sexual orientation and gender identity minorities).

 

Also I've noticed that LGBT discussion in the USA is heavily based on social networks. I've seen discussions such as "should bisexual people leave the LGBT" and "should trans people leave the LGBT", which seems absurd to me as both bisexual and trans people are sexual orientation or gender identity minorities and that's a fact and not an opinion.

 

I've also never understood how a group of sexual orientation or gender identity minorities could not feel welcomed in the LGBT events (if they're not openly discriminated etc). I've seen "non-flamboyant gay guys" complaining about the same thing here. They're feeling different than the majority (of the gays), so they blame the majority for not being like them. Which isn't cool in my opinion. Instead, you should visit more and more LGBT events, to make yourself also seen and form a sub group for your people. It's not oppressing if you're deviant, you just need to find contact with those who're like you - just like everyone else had to, when they first entered an LGBT event. And even if it was indeed a case of discrimination, how does fading away help anyone? It just makes things worse for people of your group, you should rather state the inequality than accept it, imo.

 

Anyhow, the point of view is probably different there, as there's a lot of history behind the LGBT society in the countries like the USA, whereas it's basically just an acronym here. Also, I don't really know how different the events are here and other sides of the world. Here it's basically people wearing normal clothes and holding a flag of your group, gathering together for a picnic. Differences are pretty minimal and there isn't that much extremes compared to Prides around the world, and great part of people are actually cishet I believe. Maybe it's easier to us feel connected as our events aren't evolved that far yet.

 

So yes, I do think asexuals are part of LGBT+ (sexual orientation and gender identity minorities). Has anyone else similar "factual" approach to LGBT+, or am I just the odd one? :D

I live in Southern UK.

I tried it and found that while in theory I was welcome there, A lot of it didnt really resonate with me on a core level. As I say, I found advocacy type discussions to be engaging enough and when there was discussion that wasnt too heavily focussed on sex and relationships I could dig it. I foud though that sooner or later the conversations became about who was with who, who was sleeping with who and other things I care little about from a personal standpoint. I admit I might have been incompatible on some level and compatible on other levels.

As a side note Im an animal rights protester and would never write of the possibility of joining some advocacy group focussing on LGBT/GSM. 

I think there are areas of it I take an interest to realitively quickly and easily and other areas that turn me off and make me loose interest. 

As my initial post said, its a personal thing and down to each ace-spec/aro-spec individual to see (through introspection) where they do or dont fit.

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BlueHairedFairy

I'm voting that we are a part of the LGBTQ+ community. I'm definitely queer (in more ways than one 😉😂) and I like to think that there's an even broader community that I am part of beyond just this one. As to the "A" at the end, I've heard people swear that it stands for "allies" - which is a very ignorant statement. I correct them and try not to get annoyed at their stupidity. 

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Others have already posted half of my thoughts, so I'll share the other half I have.

I wouldn't had known I was Asexual if it weren't for the LGBT+ community, so I would say it is very important to be included.
I would likely deal with many more years of confusion and stress if it were never mentioned in LGBT+ spaces.
Not to mention, being a lesbian ace, I won't settle for only half of my orientation being recognized.

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If, by the question, you are referring to the parts of the acronym that you put (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender), then I would say that asexuals are not a part of that since they are not one of those four terms. BUT, if you mean LGBT as shorthand for the whole acronym (LGBTQIA+), I would argue that asexuals should definitely be a part of that community.

The main argument that I've seen for not including asexuals is basically that they are not oppressed and no one is telling them that their sexuality is illegal. To that, I respond that, while it is definitely true that there are no laws telling asexuals that they have to have sex, being a part of the LGBT community shouldn't be a competition of who is oppressed the most. Gay marriage (for example) is becoming legal all over the world, but it's not like once it's legal everywhere, those in the community that it affects will be like "well, I've got my right to marry. We don't have to be part of the LGBT+ community anymore." This seems pretty obvious because, even when gay marriage is universally accepted, there will still be a lot of stigma and lack of acceptance, despite being legal. A similar thing exists with asexuality. Many asexuals grow up feeling broken. That, coupled with the lack of representation and stereotypes surrounding the sexuality such as being unfeeling, or whatever, and being told that asexuality doesn't exist should be reason enought to include asexuals in the LGBT+ community.

Many people comment that it doesn't matter one way or the other, and if that's what you feel, you do you. However, due to the lack of asexuals in my life, I've always found the LGBT+ community to be far less isolating that just considering myself a "variation of straight" or a different group all together. 

 

Phew, that was long. Sorry that was just my personal take

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Hi! I'm new on here, but I want to share that we are certainly 'queer' if that is the term you prefer! I didn't really like it for a while because I had only heard it used derogatorily by homophobic people. But now it is a term I like to use as an alternative or additionally to LGBTQIA+, because it is shorter. Certainly asexual and aromantic are more widely accepted by the queer and LGBTQIA+ community than ever before now, although of course it isn't perfect. There are times I feel uncomfortable or hurt that it is so little discussed even within the community. Nonetheless, as it isn't hetero or whatever society likes to call 'normal' then yes we are a part of the community. As asexuality and aromanticism become better known too, the A in LGBTQIA+ is increasingly recognized to represent us rather than 'ally', though some will still insist that is what it stands for, or should be, or they might say it is either. If it helps though, officially in my textbook on race, ethnicity, gender, and class, asexuality is recognized and mentioned as a sexual orientation of the community. 

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Ok, so I'm on here bc i saw an instagram post about how the LGBT+ community doesn't want to accept us bc we don't suffer as much as they do in society (the example being how lesbians, gays, transgenders and such are kicked from their homes and even physically abused, which is somewhat a valid point). Then i also saw aces who were writing about how they don't think it's necessary for us to be in the community anyway, which is the part that confused me bc i thought  we were fighting for the A to stand for ace and not ally so now i just really want to know if we are or aren't LGBT+

 

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You are 100% a part of the LGBTQ+ community.  Those that tell you otherwise are called exclusionists. Why they choose to exclude you I will never understand. As a bisexual we were the target for years and years. Unfortunately even some bisexuals are being exclusionist towards the ace community, probably because they're so glad that the target isn't on them anymore that they will join the echo chamber as a means to fit in.

 

As far as have you suffered enough, why is this some sort of competition to see who has suffered more? Aces get treated like garbage a lot. They're told that they're sick, and need therapy, they're told that they just haven't met the right person, they're susceptible to coercion, and rape. People who deny that aces don't suffer from not being heteronormative are fools.

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NickyTannock

@ItsRache A belated welcome to AVEN!

 

Incidentally, it is a tradition here to welcome new members by offering cake, and here's a Mystical Indigo Cake,

qwooyj7k7g95c69emrga.jpg

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On 4/12/2019 at 9:02 AM, Kahlan said:

I would say that I am not. I don't struggle for acceptance nor do I feel the need to speak about it.

I kinda agree with you, I don't struggle either and I don't feel as if I needed to belong to the lgbtq+ community. 

I know you never said otherwise but I think that if you are an aro/ace and you have a REASON, whatever it is, to want to be considered a lgbtq+ you have all the right to be so. 

 

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The Incarnation Of Boredom
On 4/12/2019 at 2:25 AM, WWIFlyingAce said:

I've seen a lot of debate among members of the LGBT community over whether aces/aros belong with them or not.  I personally feel as if I'd like to be included, because I'm not straight, and being both not-straight and not-LGBT feels very isolating and lonely.  I also don't want to go around claiming to be a member of the community if I'm really not, so, what are your thoughts?  Are we LGBT/queer or not?  If not, do we have our own collective, or are we simply "other"?

I consider myself a part of it if it has the A in it, or if it has a plus at the end.

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NickyTannock

@Kalina1528 A belated welcome to AVEN!

 

Incidentally, it is a tradition here to welcome new members by offering cake, and here are some Buttercream Gerbera Flower Cupcakes,

qfncfdwushkoe3usystr.jpg

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I think that aces/aros should be welcome in LGBT+ (I've also seen people write SAGA - Sexuality And Gender Acceptance) spaces should they wish to turn there. While I personally couldn't care less now, when I was first questioning I really needed people I could talk to in person (AVEN is great though, and really helped me). The thing is, I didn't think anyone would understand. I thought about talking to my roommates at the time who I'd known since at least middle school and who both identify as LGBT+, but what kept me from doing that was: 

1. being afraid they'd think I was making something up just to fit in (our whole friend group at the time was openly LGBT+ except for me, who they'd assumed to be "straight by default")

2. not being sure if asexuality even counted as LGBT+ and therefore if they could understand.

The LGBTQ center at my current university (idk about the previous one), however, is highly inclusive of ace and aro identities, which is excellent. 

 

 

Anyway, at the time I'd never met anyone who was openly ace before. I really needed a face-to-face conversation with someone who wouldn't try to justify why I might be feeling this way or tell me that it isn't real. If I had been somewhere where being ace/aro was openly accepted when I first started questioning myself, I would have felt less isolated much sooner. To those who make the argument that ace/aro spec people don't necessarily understand the same struggles as LGBT people because we don't feel sexual/romantic attraction like they do, I think that cis LGB people probably can never fully understand what it's like to be trans and the specific struggles of being trans. Our issues are different, but similar in that society doesn't quite understand them. In my opinion, the community is about providing a safe space for people who deviate from the norm to go, and a space for people to go to find others who may have had the same or similar experiences as them. It's so important to know you're not alone.

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My roller derby team has an LGBTQIA+ group, which I'm part of. Nobody seems to think I don't 'belong' there, although I was a touch worried about that.

 

That said, if it was just the LGBT part of the acronym I would prepare myself to justify my inclusion. I get why people sometimes miss off the QIA+ bit, but as someone who counts themselves under that bit of the acronym, knows other people who do, and who is 'basically invisible' (a friend's phrasing, not mine), I wouldn't feel particularly comfortable without being reassured often. I do sometimes wonder if the pan members feel the same, as they're not in the original four-initial part...

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8 hours ago, BeADreamer said:

I think that aces/aros should be welcome in LGBT+ (I've also seen people write SAGA - Sexuality And Gender Acceptance) spaces should they wish to turn there. While I personally couldn't care less now, when I was first questioning I really needed people I could talk to in person (AVEN is great though, and really helped me). The thing is, I didn't think anyone would understand. I thought about talking to my roommates at the time who I'd known since at least middle school and who both identify as LGBT+, but what kept me from doing that was: 

1. being afraid they'd think I was making something up just to fit in (our whole friend group at the time was openly LGBT+ except for me, who they'd assumed to be "straight by default")

2. not being sure if asexuality even counted as LGBT+ and therefore if they could understand.

The LGBTQ center at my current university (idk about the previous one), however, is highly inclusive of ace and aro identities, which is excellent. 

 

 

Anyway, at the time I'd never met anyone who was openly ace before. I really needed a face-to-face conversation with someone who wouldn't try to justify why I might be feeling this way or tell me that it isn't real. If I had been somewhere where being ace/aro was openly accepted when I first started questioning myself, I would have felt less isolated much sooner. To those who make the argument that ace/aro spec people don't necessarily understand the same struggles as LGBT people because we don't feel sexual/romantic attraction like they do, I think that cis LGB people probably can never fully understand what it's like to be trans and the specific struggles of being trans. Our issues are different, but similar in that society doesn't quite understand them. In my opinion, the community is about providing a safe space for people who deviate from the norm to go, and a space for people to go to find others who may have had the same or similar experiences as them. It's so important to know you're not alone.

Well said!

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23 minutes ago, Iam9man said:

Well said!

Thank you!

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Ms. Carolynne

I know I'm late to the discussion, but I think it depends on the community and context. Personally, I would say we aren't necessarily LGBTQ+, but are definitely GSRM.

 

That being said, there are LGBT communities that are open to GSRMs as a whole which do include asexuals and aromantics (but still call themselves LGBT as a catch all). A lot of the more open and accepting LGBT communities are like this in my experience.

 

There are also a lot of people outside of both the asexual and LGBT community (so cis gendered heterosexuals) who don't really know any better or all the specifics, and would consider any GSRM LGBT; it is quite common for outsiders to consider us LGBTQ+.

 

On the other hand...

 

On 4/13/2019 at 2:39 AM, Lipbalm said:

I'm not LGBT.

I keep reading how ace people try to get in with LGBT but are rejected. See below, there are many such examples. We're just too different.

 

LGBT isn't one big happy family, I have come to learn, there is transphobia in some Gay/Lesbian people. Lesbians and Gays never hang around together, they're not even close!

 

The lifestyles are too different.

 

so, no.

 

 

This happens. There are LGBT communities that don't suit us too well, and there are asexuals who feel they don't belong or want to be a part of the LGBT anyway.

 

There are also more specific communities for very good reasons. I don't interact with the general LGBT too much, even being trans and supporting LGB folks, because my needs and experiences are different from them. So it makes sense for me to stick to trans and asexual communities.

 

Then there's the matter that there are people who probably shouldn't be a part of the umbrella community, even though they fit one of the sub categories. My brother, for example, doesn't really mesh with lesbians, dislikes bisexuals, is a transphobe, and shit talks asexuals as if we're socially inept snowflakes. He's somebody I feel should just stick with exclusively gay communities, as clearly he doesn't care about other GSRMs.

 

 

Overall though, I am in favor of an umbrella type of community for general matters and where we do share commonalities, and more specific communities to be more accommodating for specific needs (as well as for those who don't want to be associated with other groups).

 

I do however think including asexuality and aromanticism as a part of the discussion is important, as there are plenty of people questioning their sexuality who could fit either group, and they don't always come here. Sometimes they go to more general LGBT groups, not really knowing where they fit, with asexual / aromantic orientations being a possible fit.

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I just wanted to know what you guys think, because I've seen so much about this and it's honestly kinda annoying. I don't necessarily want to be part of the LGBT community, but the way some people phrase their opinions is so rude.

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letusdeleteouraccounts

Type it in AVEN’s search bar and you’ll find the conversation on it from a couple of weeks ago and many more of the same conversation before that one

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Personally, I don't feel any great connection or sense of belonging when interacting with LGBT circles - not like I've felt here. Whether asexuals, in general, are apart of the LGBT - especially heteromantics - is hotly debated with no agreed upon answer.

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letusdeleteouraccounts
1 minute ago, Road said:

Whether asexuals, in general, are apart of the LGBT - especially heteromantics - is hotly debated with no agreed upon answer.

Definitely.

 

On 4/12/2019 at 5:47 AM, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Ask 10 different aces and you'll get 11 different answers.

 

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I don't truly feel like I belong, but I sort of half-identify since asexuality has already given me some sense of community.

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29 minutes ago, Road said:

Whether asexuals, in general, are apart of the LGBT - especially heteromantics - is hotly debated with no agreed upon answer.

 

Agreed.

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I consider myself part of the + in LGBTQ+, and I was welcomed into my work’s LGBTQ+ group. I do identify as such as I am not heterosexual, but it’s up to each individual to decide if they feel part of such a group or not. Some LGBT groups can be less welcoming, frankly even to bisexuals from what I’ve heard.

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NoraGrace

If you say just lgbt than asexuals are not because it only stands for lesbian, gay, bi, and trans but if you include the plus, than we are. People might not accept it, but asexuals are included in the +. That’s what the a stands for

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I'd say for the asexual community, if you want to be a part of the lgbt+ community, then go ahead. but If you don't feel like you are a part of the community- that's fine too. Just do what you are comfortable with.

 

As for me, I'm a bit on the fence on whether I'm a part of the lgbt+ community or not. I have no problems with them and I occasionally talk with my college's lgbt+ group, but I also don't feel like I fully belong since I don't like sex. I'm going to my first Pride parade next month. I can relate to the allies, the bisexuals, and the asexuals. I'm just there to meet new people and have fun.

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