"Are Aces LGBTQIA+?" Masterpost

[Vhorst106]

I have only recently done more reasearch on asexuality, demisexuality in particular, and have heard a lot about asexuals not being welcomed by many LGBTQ+ communities. When I heard this I was really surprised, because I've always thought these communities were very welcoming to people of all sexualities. I understand how some may feel as though heteroromantic aces don't quite belong, since we might not face as much adversity as people who are bisexual, for example. However, I'm still annoyed and confused why this kind of exclusion exists within such a loving and accepting group of people. 

 

Can anyone elaborate on this to help me understand?

[Norellia]

The most prominent argument is just due to lack of discrimination (which is bullshit), there is also the argument asexuals can pass or are basically straight, and then finally that asexualty doesn't even exist. Really people who say you can't be part of the lgbt community because your not discriminated against is discrimination and gate keeping all in itself. They are right in that I will probably never deal with the fear of being killed due to my asexuality but I will have to deal with a lot of people invalidating and misunderstanding my sexual orientation for the rest of my life so there is that -.-...

[Guest]

I've heard about this too. It kinda stems from asexuality being apparently not queer enough for a lot of LGBTQ+ peeps but too queer to be in any hetero-normative society. It's ironic if you think about it

[TheAP]

They think that aces don't face the same kind of prejudice as other LGBT people, and that cis hetero people, even if ace, are the oppressors of LGBT people and could make the community unsafe. I don't agree with that, though. I think just because others have it worse doesn't mean we don't have our own struggles, and inclusion in the community shouldn't be based on how much oppression you've faced. And it would be almost impossible to make the community completely safe and prevent any bigoted people from getting in. Besides, being hateful toward aces hurts even gay, bi and trans aces. 

[Norellia]

1 minute ago, TheLoveOwl said:

I've heard about this too. It kinda stems from asexuality being apparently not queer enough for a lot of LGBTQ+ peeps but too queer to be in any hetero-normative society. It's ironic if you think about it

It is really annoying how the definition for the word queer is something that is odd or different from the mainstream, which asexuality very much is. Really the lack of asexual inclusion i think just comes from misunderstanding of what asexuality is or random bad encounters with asexual people.

[Guest]

Just now, Norellia said:

It is really annoying how the definition for the word queer is something that is odd or different from the mainstream, which asexuality very much is. Really the lack of asexual inclusion i think just comes from misunderstanding of what asexuality is or random bad encounters with asexual people.

And like you said earlier, gate-keeping is also part of it 

[Tesla]

Yeah, I saw a lot of discussion around that during Pride Month...which is honestly ridiculous?? I'm demi and still trying to figure out genderstuff, but I'm super straight passing, and it was really discouraging to see those kinds of comments going around. In any case it's only some people, and there's a good part of the queer community that is way more accepting ♥ 

[th-emptyhearse]

I have been involved in this sort of discussion before, and have a seen a lot of it on social media. I ultimately think its quite taxing to get involved in those discussions but don't really anymore, but I've seen a lot of this controversy so I can contribute some reasons why people don't think a-spec people belong in the LGBTQ+ community.

 

- People say that the community is only for those who experience same gender attraction or are not cisgender. This does not cover aroaces, hetero aros aces or demis etc, who are cisgender.

 

- People say that ace people are 'basically straight' or can pass as straight whereas LGBTQ+ people can't, and therefore don't face any challenges and aren't LGBTQ+. This is obviously untrue, and not a strong argument. Even though we face different challenges, they are challenges nonetheless, and I know ace people certainly do not feel heterosexual themselves.

 

- People bring history into it with the history of discrimination and civil rights movements and that, and how ace people are not a part of that, and that it is not our history so we don't belong. 

 

- They say that ace people don't face discrimination or criminalization, so don't need the community.

 

This is all that comes to mind now, but if you look up ace exclusion or something like that on tumblr, I'm sure you will find plenty of arguments. I think its all a very petty argument and we should all be welcoming and accept of everyone, and those who face alienisation from our hetero and cisnormative world should all stand together.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Bi and trans still get a lot of shit, there's a lot of discrimination all round in mainstream lgbt circles.

[Bronztrooper]

The thing that gets me the most about those people is that quite a few of them seem to go out of their way to push asexuals away from the LGBT+ community online for no better reason than pettiness (go onto Tumblr under the 'ace positivity' tag and you're guaranteed to find at least several posts on there from exclusionists talking down to asexuals) and some go even further to the point of pretending to be ace just to make other aces look bad.

 

Not to mention that asexuals are somehow inherently homophobic/biphobic/transphobic/etc. according to those same exclusionists.  A good portion of those people are just being trolls, yeah, but the amount of people who actually agree with them is very concerning, imo.

 

One thing I've definitely noticed is that quite a few of the things that have been said by exclusionists trying to invalidate asexuality have also been said towards bisexuals- namely stuff like how it doesn't exist or that they can pass as being straight.

 

Honestly, the best part is all the trans hate, especially from les women, and then the apparent attempts for exclusionists to pit trans people and aces against each other (which makes less than no sense, considering how the gender identifications within our community seem to be more varied proportionally than in the rest of the LGBT+ sub-communities (based on what I've seen, that is).  🙄

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Bronztrooper said:

One thing I've definitely noticed is that quite a few of the things that have been said by exclusionists trying to invalidate asexuality have also been said towards bisexuals- namely stuff like how it doesn't exist or that they can pass as being straight.

The thing is if it's all about passing as straight then by that logic, the exclusionists should also be going against the gay guys and lesbians that pass as straight as well. Some people just suck.

[Bronztrooper]

4 minutes ago, TheLoveOwl said:

The thing is if it's all about passing as straight then by that logic, the exclusionists should also be going against the gay guys and lesbians that pass as straight as well. Some people just suck.

They'd just say that's HomophobicTM.

[Guest]

Just now, Bronztrooper said:

They'd just say that's HomophobicTM.

Love that it's trademarked dude but yeah you're right ;-;

[Karst]

Just because aces don't face the same type or level of discrimination as other queer folks doesn't mean that we don't get any misunderstanding or invalidation about our identity.

In my opinion, anyone who isn't heterosexual and cisgender belongs under the queer umbrella.

Gatekeeping only harms a community, in the end, by making it smaller and setting itself up for rivalry.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Ardoise said:

Just because aces don't face the same type or level of discrimination as other queer folks doesn't mean that we don't get any misunderstanding or invalidation about our identity.

In my opinion, anyone who isn't heterosexual and cisgender belongs under the queer umbrella.

Gatekeeping only harms a community, in the end, by making it smaller and setting itself up for rivalry.

Preach child

[Horse Ham Radio]

So I'm going to make some rather opinionated views here in favour of asexuality as part of LGBT+, and it's totally fine if you disagree with me. I just feel this topic is deeper than what has been discussed so far.

 

But let me start by pointing to some statistics from the UK LGBT+ Survey (released earlier this month) that will support my arguments:

Spoiler

Figures from: 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721704/LGBT-survey-research-report.pdf

Also see: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-lgbt-survey-summary-report

The rest of the report has statistics that are as similarly grim for asexuals - the above figures were not specially cherry-picked.

The top figure shows aces have the lowest life satisfaction out of the main sexual orientations. The UK average is 7.66. The figure is for cis-gendered respondents, but the report (page 29) says trans aces report an average satisfaction of 5.07 - the lowest of all recorded figures.

 

Second figure is self-explanatory. Aces are very selective about who they come out to. Fewer than 50% are out to most or all people. Only a fifth are openly ace.

 

The final figure shows aces take about a hefty hit to employability. The cause for this is up for debate, but I personally think asexuals have poorer mental health than the other main orientations. This is driven by the previous two stats: A low life satisfaction and not being willing to come out. Poorer mental health is known to correlate with employment.

 

(NB: asexual respondents had a much younger age distribution than homosexual respondents, which may affect comparisons. The asexual age distribution was most similar to that of bisexuals and pansexuals. See table below from Annex 3, Sheet 3 (Q1).)

Spoiler

 

___________________________

Now of course, compared to what LGBT+ people have experienced in the past, aces have it quite easy. There's no arguments against that. But we aren't living in the past. Modern day UK is not an overly hostile place to be if you are in the LGBT+ scene. Aces have it easier in some ways than modern LGBT+ people - they can hide easier, they don't have to worry as much about discrimination, there are fewer groups opposed to them and these groups are less powerful than what the general LGBT+ scene face. But then on the other hand, aces have it harder. Asexuals can't easily come out (for fear of hatred or misunderstanding etc.), they are misunderstood, there are minimal resources available, it is hard to find other aces, they are more likely to be offered conversion therapy to "cure" their orientation (Report Figure 5.32, page 85) and so on. These are all issues that LGBT+ people faced at one point too (and still do to some extent, but not to the same level as asexuals).

 

So if LGBT+ people have fought against these issues in the past (and still are fighting) and aces are also fighting these issues, then why shouldn't we fight together? We both want the same thing, and in many ways we seem natural allies. Sure, some of our issues are different, but there is substantial overlap between the ace and LGBT+ communities. The stats from the survey clearly show that neither LGBT+ nor aces live similar lives to hetero-normative people (using this term with a broad meaning). If aces aren't part of the hetero-normative community, and aren't part of the LGBT+ community, then they are alone. This isn't the way things should be.

 

Even if people claim asexuals are "just like" or similar to heterosexuals, that doesn't make it true. Even a cis (monogamous) heteroromantic asexual cannot always live a hetero-normative life, especially if their asexuality plays a key role in their identity and thus affects how they go about dating and developing relationships, which can lead to difficult discussions when these topics come up in chat. There's also the whole mental side of feeling broken that comes with being ace and realising that you are different to most people, which LGBT+ people can also experience.

 

Then there is another whole prong to the inclusion argument. Aces have large intersectionality with LGBT+ areas such as LGBP romantic orientations and trans genders. This has already been mentioned in this thread, but excluding LGBP/trans people because they are asexual is damaging to these communities. It's damaging to all of us really.

 

The LGBT+ scene has developed ways that help them deal with and defeat the problems they face. Asexuals have too. By working together and understanding each other, we can learn from one another and act as a stronger group together. Asexuals as part of LGBT+.

[NickyTannock]

Welcome to AVEN!

 

I'm not on social media and haven't interacted with the LGBT+ community because I'm not out to my family, so I've inadvertently managed to avoid that kind of Ace exclusion.

 

[Iam Loulou]

https://misspunnypuns.tumblr.com/post/162122235661/so-this-comic-was-something-i-volunteered-to-do

[andreas1033]

Me personally i do not care about the lbgt+ group, and i do not see myself as an asexual to be part of it.

 

But i understand lots of you do.

 

My opinion, is that they do not see asexuals, as a discriminated group. Bull, asexuals lifes can be easily destroyed just as much as anyone in that group, for being whom they are.

 

My life was ruined mostly because i was asexual, and my life is just the same as anyone in that lbgt+ group.

 

But like i said, i do not want to be part of groups, i am just telling people that yes asexuals do have there lifes ruined for being asexual, and not being like most sexuals.

 

I view being asexual, as a personal thing, and not a group thing, like most of you do. I understand you want to be part of a group together, but for me, its a personal thing for me.

[Member131995]

Hmmm...the insight of everyone in this post is pretty interesting and also good education for me. While I wasn't very aware of any discrimination of aces within the LGBTQ+ community, I realize now that some of my gay friends actually got annoyed when I mentioned I was ace. They are like, oh you're just saying that because you're a virgin and you're jealous of everyone who isn't single. Most of them think of me as bi. If I insist I'm an ace, they aren't as accepting. They will just tell, me, you're actually bi, which I'm not and honestly it feels like the exact opposite of being ace, but whatever.

[Thunderr☆]

On 7/25/2018 at 3:37 AM, Norellia said:

The most prominent argument is just due to lack of discrimination (which is bullshit), there is also the argument asexuals can pass or are basically straight, and then finally that asexualty doesn't even exist. Really people who say you can't be part of the lgbt community because your not discriminated against is discrimination and gate keeping all in itself. There right in that I will probably never deal with the fear of being killed due to my asexuality but I will have to deal with a lot of people invalidating and misunderstanding my sexual orientation for the rest of my life so there is that -.-...

I agree Norellia.

[Tasha the demi squirrel]

I heard about this debate to and thought it ridiculous but not all LGBTQ+ individuals reject us.......I recently went to Eastbourne pride and I felt welcome 

[Karst]

7 hours ago, Tasha the demi squirrel said:

I heard about this debate to and thought it ridiculous but not all LGBTQ+ individuals reject us.......I recently went to Eastbourne pride and I felt welcome 

You're right, plenty of people in the wider queer community are perfectly accepting.

Doesn't mean that there aren't gatekeeping exclusionists, though.

[ChaoticGoodLoner]

This whole debate is a BIG reason why I won't ever come out to anyone (except here, I guess. Hi.) I'm already tired enough dealing with everything else in life that I just do not have the energy to fight for the justification of my existence. I've come to terms with that, though. I know myself to be an island in the middle of everything, so to speak, and I'm not about to make that any harder.

 

Of course, I stopped paying attention to this awful debate because it was just a source of anger that I didn't need. I already hate myself enough without seeing people telling someone like me they're broken and need to be fixed.

 

Sorry. I don't know how relevant this is to the topic but I wanted to give my two cents, I guess.

[Madao]

From what I have seen, some members of LGBTQ community see heteromantic aces as straight people who are using this fancy term just to hijack their precious safe place, just to feel special. Most of their exclusion is directed more towards heteromantic cisgender aces and aro aces as well. According to them, in order for a person to be LGBTQ, one must face attraction towards same gender or shouldn't be cisgender. Apparently, I have heard that some seats in educational institutions and stuff are reserved for LGBTQ community and they feel asexual people are trying to grab those seats. As a result, I try to not come out to anyone except my LGBTQ friends, since they are pretty accepting. 

I feel most of the LGBTQ community is pretty accepting, however there always will be some exclusionists, though. These same people make fun of bisexuals and pansexuals too, though. 

[Karst]

Heteromantic aces are in the same boat as bisexuals and pansexuals. The gatekeepers in the queer community think they're too close to being straight, and the heteros see them as queer.

*sighs*

[Chloe88]

I've had abusive behaviour, insults and mockery from the LGBT community on three separate occasions when I told them I was ace. Sorry if aces who think they are part of LGBT don't like to hear this.

[Bronztrooper]

1 hour ago, Chloe88 said:

I've had abusive behaviour, insults and mockery from the LGBT community on three separate occasions when I told them I was ace. Sorry if aces who think they are part of LGBT don't like to hear this.

I don't think anyone who's ace would want to hear about that kind of stuff coming from the LGBT+ community, but I highly doubt there are many people around here who're unaware that it happens.

[Guest]

ace ppl should totally be accepted in LGBT tho, the extended acronym is LGBTTQQIAAP, the first A standing for Ace. #solidarity

[Umaibou]

Having previously identified as bisexual, I did not feel welcome by the LGBTQ+ community. People didn't take me seriously, since I had been in predominantly heterosexual relationships. I wasn't aware that there was discrimination against ace people as well? It's kind of shocking, considering it's a community that should be all about making others feel accepted and validated?