What makes a romantic relationship a romantic relationship?

[banana monkey]

So I was reading another thread and it left me with a load of questions so I figured it was time to start a new thread. The thread in question described a senario of a relationship where person a was romantically attracted to person B but person B was not romantically attracted to person a, person B had a more queerplatonic "attraction"/senario going on. This got me thinking. 

 

Would this be a queerplatonic relationship or a romantic one? 

If so, what makes a relationship romantic? Is it possible for a relationship to be both romantic and queerplatonic at the same time because the relationship is romantic to person a whilst being queerplatonic to person B? (This is a very curious question as i'm wondering if this is the situation of my last relationship) 

[Violet of the Stars]

6 minutes ago, banana monkey said:

So I was reading another thread and it left me with a load of questions so I figured it was time to start a new thread. The thread in question described a scenario of a relationship where person a was romantically attracted to person B but person B was not romantically attracted to person a, person B had a more queerplatonic "attraction"/senario going on. This got me thinking. 

 

Would this be a queerplatonic relationship or a romantic one? 

If so, what makes a relationship romantic? Is it possible for a relationship to be both romantic and queerplatonic at the same time because the relationship is romantic to person a whilst being queerplatonic to person B? (This is a very curious question as i'm wondering if this is the situation of my last relationship) 

I would say yes, the situation you described is possible. Romance as a concept is incredibly subjective. Basically it involves two people who are very close to each other doing romantically coded things together, like going out on dates, living together, etc. In a QPR, people could do all or none of those things, it all depends on what they are comfortable with. This includes traditionally romantic things like kissing. Here's a checklist that details exactly that: https://aromanticaardvark.tumblr.com/post/44655392052/aromanticplatonicqueerplatonic-dating-checklist.

 

Romantic love is a social construct. Society treats it like it isn't but it is. 

 

So I would say that the people in the situation you described above shouldn't treat the situation like unrequited love. They both want more than a friendship, they're just using different labels for it. They could definitely make it work, as long as they're both flexible to the idea. Much like aces can have sex without it making them allo, aros can be in romantic relationships without diminishing their aro-ness. 

[banana monkey]

Thank you for your response. I suppose what I was trying to determine is what makes a romantic relationship a romantic relationship as opposed to a queerplatonic one. Some people would say romantic attraction or romantic activities but we have already established that there is no romantic attraction by person b in the senario I describe and you have just stated that QPR's can include traditionally romantic activities (which I was already aware and hence confusion). It doesnt necesarily mean its a romantic relationship, so its not necessarily either of those 2 things. Therefore what is it?  Is there no clear answer here? 

[Guest]

A romantic relationship is... whatever the people in the relationship call it. 

 

Though, to the outside world, if you are kissing, snuggling, etc while being committed partners then they aren't going to care if you say your feelings are romantic or platonic. Society will see it as a romantic relationship. 

[KiraS]

12 hours ago, CBC said:

Expand on that, please. How are people's feelings a social construct?

Love is love. Whether it's "romantic" or not always seems to be a game of cultural Calvinball. 

 

EDIT: In my experience "romance" seems to involve playacting gender roles and rape-culture ideas about transactional sexuality and tacit consent. So I'll talk about my long-term commitment with my partner, since that's easily understood. But people will say we're not romantic because we skip anniversary and Valentine's Day. 

[AceMissBehaving]

If I’m honest I don’t really know. I sometimes wonder if I’m doing romance “right” or doing it at all as a result. 
 

12 hours ago, CBC said:

Expand on that, please. How are people's feelings a social construct?

This is interesting to me because I’m not sure what feelings are supposed to be behind the actions. I don’t know if that means I’m not actually romantic, and more platonic and altruistic but likes cuddles, or what.

 

Like I care a great deal for people, and built a life that’s important with my partner, and am invested in their wellbeing. I don’t know if that’s romance though?

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, CBC said:

Also, I'm sorry if that's been your personal experience, but it's absolutely NOT everyone's. I've never play-acted a particular gender role in any of my relationships, nor engaged in rapey sexual activity. I resent the implication that anything I've done has been 'transactional'.

Yeah, I am very romantically in love with my partner. My romantic feelings are strong. It is not the same as platonic feelings, at all. But... there is nothing about gender roles or play acting them (neither of us gives a flip about gender roles, tbh... she may care a little more at times than me due to being dysphoric and wanting to be girly to feel better, but eeehhhh). And there is nothing rapey or transactional about our sex life. We both get very explicit consent (verbal) before we do anything. 

 

And... no one has ever said we aren't romantic. Maybe not "romantic" as neither of us buys flowers or goes to fancy dinners (cause, ew) but uh. Who cares ? There are multiple ways of having a romantic relationship. No one would call us platonic just because we don't go out on Feb 14th (now, Feb 15th... that one I will go out on... half off candy!)

[KiraS]

33 minutes ago, CBC said:

Also, I'm sorry if that's been your personal experience, but it's absolutely NOT everyone's. I've never play-acted a particular gender role in any of my relationships, nor engaged in rapey sexual activity. I resent the implication that anything I've done has been 'transactional'.

I'm not saying that what you do is transactional. I'm pointing out that when someone says "romantic" I have absolutely no idea whether I'm included in that, and because both heterosexism and rape culture are a lot more common than ace awareness, I have to assume that I'm not. 

 

It's kind of like arguing that no one should have problems with sexism because you're not personally sexist. It doesn't really work that way. 

[BeakLove]

20 hours ago, Violet of the Stars said:

I would say yes, the situation you described is possible. Romance as a concept is incredibly subjective. Basically it involves two people who are very close to each other doing romantically coded things together, like going out on dates, living together, etc. In a QPR, people could do all or none of those things, it all depends on what they are comfortable with. This includes traditionally romantic things like kissing. Here's a checklist that details exactly that: https://aromanticaardvark.tumblr.com/post/44655392052/aromanticplatonicqueerplatonic-dating-checklist.

 

Romantic love is a social construct. Society treats it like it isn't but it is. 

Let's be realistic here, are you really going to do a healthy portion of things on your list of affectionate activities with someone with whom you do not feel a connection that is basically what we all call romance? Two people who are "very close to each other" who go on dates, live together, eye gaze, hold hands, cuddle, share beds, bathe together etc. etc. are indistinguishable from a romantic couple. You have close feelings + considering each other "partners" + doing "romantic" things. As to the OP's question, if you have one person with romantic feelings and the other person lacking them and they're doing many of the things on that list, then the technical term for that relationship is a car crash waiting to happen. Someone who enjoys sex and sees the relationship as casual, but their partner developed feelings is the canonical example. You can't bridge the gap between feelings and non-feelings with linguistic sticking tape.

 

I also don't see how "in a QPR, people could do all or none of those things" is any different to a romantic relationship. Surely the whole point of AVEN is recognising that it's possible to have romantic relationships in which sex is not a major factor. 

20 hours ago, banana monkey said:

Thank you for your response. I suppose what I was trying to determine is what makes a romantic relationship a romantic relationship as opposed to a queerplatonic one. Some people would say romantic attraction or romantic activities but we have already established that there is no romantic attraction by person b in the senario I describe and you have just stated that QPR's can include traditionally romantic activities (which I was already aware and hence confusion). It doesnt necesarily mean its a romantic relationship, so its not necessarily either of those 2 things. Therefore what is it?  Is there no clear answer here? 

Can you make the example more concrete? What specific activities were involved?

 

[KiraS]

12 minutes ago, BeakLove said:

Let's be realistic here, are you really going to do a healthy portion of things on your list of affectionate activities with someone with whom you do not feel a connection that is basically what we all call romance?  Two people who are "very close to each other" who go on dates, live together, eye gaze, hold hands, cuddle, share beds, bathe together etc. etc. are indistinguishable from a romantic couple.

Whether my relationship is named "romance" depends entirely on the political views and sentimentality of the person doing the naming. Just about everything you listed are cultural constructions that are absolutely not universal. 

[BeakLove]

41 minutes ago, KiraS said:

Whether my relationship is named "romance" depends entirely on the political views and sentimentality of the person doing the naming. Just about everything you listed are cultural constructions that are absolutely not universal. 

As a society, we broadly agree that romantic relationships are couples that have a character of "romance" - that is heightened feelings/love/romanticising/deep connection etc. You are right that the set of activities is associated with romance is ultimately arbitrary but I guess I'm saying in practice where do you get scenarios where people are going to be doing a large chunk of that list, and not have the kind of feelings that we call "romance". Are you really going to snuggle up to someone, want to live with them, marry them, raise kids with them, have sex with them, stare into their eyes every night and shower them with affection if you simply have a friendly fondness. Do you know any examples of this?

[KiraS]

1 hour ago, BeakLove said:

As a society, we broadly agree that romantic relationships are couples that have a character of "romance" - that is heightened feelings/love/romanticising/deep connection etc.

I think you're being wildly optimistic about what "we as a society" agree on. Barely a majority think I'm even capable of the same kind of marriage as a straight person, and that happened in the last decade after a full generation of focused activism. The equation of romance = love = marriage excludes a lot of people who are not straight, cis, or neurotypical, or those of us who have different priorities. Perfectly companionable people sometimes marry and have sex, because why not. 

 

 

 

 

[banana monkey]

On 7/29/2020 at 7:56 PM, BeakLove said:

 

Can you make the example more concrete? What specific activities were involved?

 

 

On 7/29/2020 at 9:15 PM, BeakLove said:

 Are you really going to snuggle up to someone, want to live with them, marry them, raise kids with them, have sex with them, stare into their eyes every night and shower them with affection if you simply have a friendly fondness. Do you know any examples of this?

These posts exactly illistrate my point, the difference of opinion between you and @Violet of the Stars takes the point very well because it illistrates that there seems to be a differing opinion on the matter which means I may not necessarily get an answer to my question. Did you want senario examples - in which case maybe I should try and link the thread later. Similarly I can be engaged in a relationship with quite a few things on your and violet's list and I wont necessarily be romantically attracted to that person (more QP). The only thing I wouldnt do from your list is have sex (because I'm asexual) marry them (because I dont know if I want to get married) and raise kids (because I know I definately dont want kids) that has nothing to do with the status of the relationship. I have never been at the point where I want to marry someone because the feelings havent been that strong to make the commitment. but wanting to live together, cuddle, eyegaze, kiss, hold hands etc all there plus plenty of others on violets list. My point is that if you were to take your question in the 2nd quote my answer would be a resounding YES!! but then queerplatonic feelings are more than a "friendly fondness" (that would be best friends - totally different) 

[BeakLove]

3 hours ago, banana monkey said:

These posts exactly illistrate my point, the difference of opinion between you and @Violet of the Stars takes the point very well because it illistrates that there seems to be a differing opinion on the matter which means I may not necessarily get an answer to my question. Did you want senario examples - in which case maybe I should try and link the thread later. Similarly I can be engaged in a relationship with quite a few things on your and violet's list and I wont necessarily be romantically attracted to that person (more QP). The only thing I wouldnt do from your list is have sex (because I'm asexual) marry them (because I dont know if I want to get married) and raise kids (because I know I definately dont want kids) that has nothing to do with the status of the relationship. I have never been at the point where I want to marry someone because the feelings havent been that strong to make the commitment. but wanting to live together, cuddle, eyegaze, kiss, hold hands etc all there plus plenty of others on violets list. My point is that if you were to take your question in the 2nd quote my answer would be a resounding YES!! but then queerplatonic feelings are more than a "friendly fondness" (that would be best friends - totally different) 

I don't disbelieve your account of your feelings at all. What does the idea of being in a romantic relationship with them make you feel like? Do you like the idea of being recognised as partners? 

 

 

[banana monkey]

6 hours ago, BeakLove said:

I don't disbelieve your account of your feelings at all. What does the idea of being in a romantic relationship with them make you feel like? Do you like the idea of being recognised as partners? 

 

 

I cant really answer that question because I dont know the difference between how being in a romantic relationship would feel as opposed to the feeling of being in a queerplatonic one. I think this is why I asked the original question. I wanted to know what made a romantic relationship romantic as opposed to queerplatonic. The one similarity between the 2 is that you are recognised as partners so I dont think that will give me the answer but being recognised as together is important to me, because that is what makes the difference from friendship and will make me desire a relationship. (sensual attraction also helps but some of that I may be able to do with a very close friend).   However, I dont necessarily like being called "girlfriend" I would much prefer Significant other, I dont know why, maybe its because "girlfriend" is a romantic word for me so hearing it is uncomfortable when I am unsure of my feelings. 

[Homer]

On 7/29/2020 at 4:49 PM, CBC said:

I resent the implication that anything I've done has been 'transactional'.

I think that that's a fairly delicate aspect of relationships. In my opinion it is transactional - a relationship won't work if the people involved don't contribute at least somewhat evenly. Person A helps person B out, later it's the other way around. The difference is the business aspect - I call a cab, driver gets me from here to there, I pay, done. I don't get to watch them flourish with the fair they made off my journey (and I don't want to!). Relationships don't work that way. If I helped you move, I'd get to see how things develop, whether you enjoy your new surroundings, what your new job is like, that kind of thing. It does go back and forth unless someone is happy with being a doormat. The "currency" just isn't as straightforward as "this jug of milk is $3" and while handing the cashier three bucks would entitle you to a jug of milk, you're not entitled to anything in a relationship.

[Violet of the Stars]

Alright I'm gonna follow up on what I was saying before.

 

Romantic attraction is made up of many different things. It means many different things to different people and cultures. There are many different parts to it. What I meant was that it's a combination of many things that forms its own unique type of attraction. I misused the term "social construct" in this case. Without society it would probably still exist.

Attractions are feelings and feelings are not social constructs.

 

As an aro, though, I have trouble wrapping my head around anything romance-related. This is because my concept of romance is based entirely off of external information rather than my own experiences, hence the "social construct."

[Homer]

22 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

; but they don't contribute for fear of the other one being pissed off, if it's a healthy relationship. They do things for the other person because they want to, including things that one culture or another might label romantic: who's to say whether putting the bins out is more romantic than reading your partner poetry?

Yeah, that.

 

I basically go by how I experience friendship, but the mechanics are pretty much the same here.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

For me Love has to be part of it to be romantic. And deeper intimacy than a friendship. Doesn't have to mean holding and kissing. Though for me it does have to involve those things because it's part of my language of love. I can be physically affectionate with friends too, but what I do won't be as passionate.

[Guest]

On 7/28/2020 at 11:00 PM, banana monkey said:

Would this be a queerplatonic relationship or a romantic one? 

If so, what makes a relationship romantic?

I have no idea.

I have seen many descriptions of queerplatonic relationships over the years and I still see no effective difference between many qp relationships and a normal romantic relationship. In some cases the only difference seems to be "I don't like lovey dovey romantic stuff" which many romantic people don't anyway, and for many it's just lack of romantic feelings, which having never experienced romantic attraction or wanted a committed relationship I find confusing.

 

What is romance if not the desire to form a committed relationship with someone? I guess I'll never know 😅 Anyway I find it all rather confusing so I just practice Relationship Anarchy.

[QueenOfTheRats]

you will just know it if its romantic. if you have to ask the answer is no